I'm not going to mention any names here, but I've got a problem and need some advice.

I'm 19 days from taking my family on our first safari. It was booked 1.5 years ago, and per Terry Carr's excellent list of questions, I confirmed a number of things in writing with the outfitter, including that I would be the only hunter in camp, and that the PH would personally guide me.

Over the past year, the company has grown, and has several concessions. I was offered my choice of concessions, including the one I had first booked with. As a result, we chose a concession which would accomodate my family, for a number of reasons, and also started looking at outings for the family in that area.

Last month, I was advised that I would not be hunting with the PH I booked with, but with another highly regarded PH. I was fine with that.

Last week, I found out that I won't be the only hunter in camp, that there will be two other hunters, without family. One is a leopard hunter, who apparently won't impact my plains game hunt, and I've been told that the area that I will be hunting is large enough that the other hunter and I won't cross paths. However, this just rankles.

I raised my concerns with the PH, and was instead offered a different, more luxurious venue, and hunting with the PH I had originally booked with. However, the new venue is 4 hours from the camp we had planned on going to, and had planned the family activities around. This means that a lot of the things that my family had looked at doing will either not get done, or will involve a heckuvalot of driving, and additional expense. What were before going to be day-trips, would now turn into several overnighters.

So, my choices are, stay at the first camp with 2 hunters I don't know, and possibly limit my hunting opportunities, or moving to the other camp and disrupting my family's plans and causing them a lot of extra time on the road, not to mention the extra expense.

What would you do?

Any reputable Outfitter (and I assume yours is above board) would accommodate your best interests, especially if your open and up front about it. If he says the area is large enough to hunt 3 separate Hunters, then I would take his word at it and go. Leopard Hunter's should present little problem for you and the other Hunter would most likely be hunting his own area. Just express your concerns with your Outfitter and let there be no misunderstanding. Besides, you should be given first consideration due to the length of time you pre-booked. Have a great trip, David

Sharing camp with other, unknown hunters can work both ways. I have met some of the nicest guys this way, and we have had a great time. On the other hand, it is also possible for minor iritations or conflicts to arise, and then it would definitely have been better to avoid sharing camp.

In particular if you are bringing your family, the more people in camp the larger the chance for frictions to arise. Since this was planned as a family tour, and since it is the long planned adventure, that sure would be a pity.

Since the problems associated with the alternative camp seem to center around the family activities, have you discussed this with your wife, and what does she think?? Maybe it is possible to adjust the family outings according to the camp you are in??

In general, it is a pity your agreements with the outfitter did not hold up, even if he has offered you an alternative.

- mike

I would tell my PH to move the other two hunters to a nother camp.I dont know who you are hunting with but he doesnt sound very professional to me.

I was in camp with one other couple from Wyoming last year. They were great and we still trade emails (they just got back from New Zealand). Personally, I'd think for 19 days you'd want some 'outside' distractions.
BTW, I never saw this couple except at breakfast and when we returned from our hunts. Never even knew that there might be another vehicle out there except for the one we were hunting out of.

Stick to your guns and get what the outfitter committed to deliver. Also, let us know who the outfitter is.

After rereading you post it would seem that the origianal PH is available and another camp is available for the other hunters (Leopard hunt may be a problem to change) is available. I would ask about the others changing and you should be able to have your origianal plan with a Leopard hunter added. If he is a serious Leopard hunter you may never see him ie he is out earlier and back later. BE A HARD ASS! Stand up for yourself and other hunters. Also who is spending the most bucks with this outfitter, eh. It would seem to be you, maybe the Leopard hunter.

I'd never share a camp on a family safari, the downside is just too great. You're there to bond with your family, make that your number one priority. It's nice to make new friends but if conflicts arise it can ruin what should be a wonderful family experience.

Unfortunately, PG hunters are treated as second-class citizens in the safari industry. It's just a fact of life. On the DG concessions, it's the DG hunters who pay the freight that makes all things possible. PG hunts are "fillers" on these concessions.

That said, it's not right for your outfitter to treat you this way after he committed to your safari booking. Your original camp is available, your original PH is available and there's another camp available for the leopard hunter. Why is your outfitter throwing your family under the bus?

I think you're doing ok - I didn't know that I had a different PH and there was another hunter in camp until I got picked up at the airport!

On the plus side, I liked the other hunter and his wife. PH, not so much.

Wannabe,

I would confer with outfitter of what was agreed upon and in writing... Then I would insist in writing that whatever is not fulfilled by Ph with regards to hunting and family sidetrips you will deduct daily rate for each day of not fulfilled itinery... Unless it is your fault and not the fault of Ph.

Mike

I'm a little mystified by your predicament. I don't understand why they are placing 3 groups in one camp while they have another empty, especially as one is a family group. I have shared a camp for 3 days with another group of hunters, and it went well, but I would be leery of mixing a family group with a pure hunting group. This is especially true if the family group includes young kids. I would suggest that you lay out your concerns to the outfitter again.
As for the leopard hunter keeping different hours then you, that's only true until he shoots his leopard. While that can take a while, it also may go quickly.
You didn't say how long the hunt is. If it's a week your family should be entertained for at least half the time by simply doing game drives from the camp. Take some games or dvd's and a laptop for the other days. Is there a place where they could fish? I guess that it may come down to how important the other activities are. If they are key than bite the bullet and hope that everyone gets along. If you can get by without them than move to the other camp and enjoy some family time. It is an adventure after all.

TerryR

One wonders what the other hunters have been told as well (exclusive camp/hunting area). Just as you have concerns, they may be none too happy when the wife and kids show up in camp (with no inference as to likablility of your family). Last minute changes are never fun, but most often work out. Best of luck.

You have gotten some pretty good advice so far.
I'l really push the outfitter to move the other two hunters.....to honor the original agreement.

If he didn't, I'd really make him pay for it one way or another.

Please name names.... I won't want to book a hunt and have these problems caused by the outfitter and then pushed on me!! Total BS!!

Guys will be guys in a hunting camp. I would tell your outfitter move or lose. Your first safari is very special don't let anyone or anything screw it up. You have a voice here!
He is giving you

Who is it????

I want "the rest of the story".

The leopard hunter might conflict with your hunt despite what you were told.

He might be shooting a good bit of plains game for bait if there are several trees he is baiting.

On the other hand he might benefit from plains game you shoot by using it for bait. This would save him some money and time.

Also as was said previously, he might get lucky on the third day and then turn into a plains game hunter for the rest of his safari.

If I was hunting alone I wouldn't be too worried about another hunter in camp. It might make the sundowner more interesting. If I had my family I would want to be the only hunter in camp.

I don't know the whole story, that is, what has been said by whom, but I just returned from a tour of Namibia prior to hunting. 4 hours additional driving for planned tourist activities will certainly impact on your families enjoyment and costs. I'd strongly request that either the agreement to be alone in camp be inforced or to be moved to another location where you and your family can be alone and that will also be close to planned activities. Being stuck, even for 7 days, is way too long for non-hunting members to be in a hunting camp, however nice it is. If you care to PM me I can give you a couple of more ideas for interesting things to do in N. C. Namibia. Swakopmund has quite a few decent options. Be sure to eat at Kucki's if you get the chance.

Many of you know that I am booked for lion next August for a 21 day safari in the Selous... The Ph called me today and asked my permission if he could bring in a buffalo hunter in the last half of my hunt and I agreed for one needs bait... Sure beats paying for it...
That is how it should be done...

Mike

How about a different mind-set...a postitive one. If it's a legit, established outfit they will bend over backwards if you are just a little flexible with them.

Nothing is perfect, especially Africa! You gotta be able to roll with the punches. I don't care if you get the primo camp all to yourself or not you might still run into some problems (lost luggage, wounded game, sickness, etc). Certainly communicate with your PH your concerns (and document it). But you and your family can still have a great time.

Now if the Outfitter does a bait and switch, go ballistic and put out the bad word on him. But if they work their butts off taking care of you and put you onto game, be happy.

I would be seriously pissed off. If you made your requirements clear when you booked, then they should stick to the agreement. Who are these people ?

I'd say be as inflexible and rigid on this matter as possible, especially since family is involved. Yes, I realize that it is Africa but you (and your family) are still the client and at the end of the day, it is your money. I also realize that PG hunters do not generate the revenue that DG hunters do, but booking 1 1/2 years out and then having all of these changes sprung on you inside of a month, before you leave, is ridiculous. Your hunt and quality family time should not suffer because the operator has over-extended themselves.

You're trying to kill too many birds with one stone. Personally I would hunt first and then have my family join me after the hunt.

Secondly, you will probably only see the other hunters at breakfast and dinner. If they are obnoxious, leave the common area and find something to do in your sleeping area. maybe not as much fun but it would solve the problem.

I can't believe this is happening. This can't be true. Every person who earns a PH license is a God and every fault or default is the client's problem. Surely you have already done many things wrong already...

Contrary to what some have written and what you may think, you have no right to any say about who joins you in camp, how they behave or any other objections you may have to the PH or outfitter running the hunt exactly as they want to.

If you don't believe this is true, post the names of the PHs and outfitters involved and let the fun begin.

This is to be YOUR FAMILIES experience of a lifetime. How can you consider compromising what you have arranged and paid for? You planned the perfect safari for your interests and now that is not what you will recieve. I would not be willing to share a camp as you will never know the consiquences of such a choice as to your ability to get the animals you want and see the sights you wish. The more commotion in camp the less effiency.

quote:

Originally posted by DC300:
You're trying to kill too many birds with one stone. Personally I would hunt first and then have my family join me after the hunt.

Secondly, you will probably only see the other hunters at breakfast and dinner. If they are obnoxious, leave the common area and find something to do in your sleeping area. maybe not as much fun but it would solve the problem.

exactly why should he have to " leave the common area" and entertain himself in his room WHEN HE BOOKED THE HUNT 18 MONTHS AGO AS A FAMILY VACATION??? seems to me that he obviously wanted the hunt to be a family experience. sorry but your suggested solution is pure BS. DON'T TAKE THIS CRAP WITHOUT A FIGHT.

If your talking about getting into another camp with a couple folks, it shouldn't be a problem.

Getting moved around on camps, different PH? That happens all the time.

Sometimes a PH will have to work another deal to get more property, or someone else will have a conflict with schedule.

The proposed new camp is 4 hrs drive from the original one? I can't think of any reason why your family can't be taken on perfectly interesting / fun outings from the new (proposed) camp. I imagine the outfitter will be very familiar with the area and what's worth seeing. Have you discussed this with him?

It's a personal thing, but I'd personally not want to share a camp. I've seen that go wrong a few times too often. Maybe I'm just anti-social?

you might just have the time of your life at the different camp. Speak to the outfitter and find out what the area has to offer, last minute changes in plans often turn out to be the best thing

If you are in a large safari area you could see if you could split time camping in both camps which would open new ground and experiences.

This is a tough call.

From the outfitters perspective, trying to juggle schedules a year and a half out is pretty tough. But the main cause could just be trying to grow too much and getting too greedy. Everyone wants to maximize income, right?

On the other hand, he had a year and a half to get it straight.

Undoubtedly, as someone mentioned, hunting only PG probably puts you back at the hind tit.

As much as the outfitters push their products, they can get pretty snooty if someone complains. A lot of what "404WJJeffery" said is true, as many guys fall in love with their PH no matter what. They can do no wrong.

If the outfitter knows you are upset about not having an exclusive camp, and still will not accommodate you, then you are scrwed not only from the camp standpoint but also from the possibility of the whole experience being resented.

Some guys live to interact with others and can be entertaining in camp but some do not (hint, hint). You can also wind up in camp with a couple of boozers.

The guy selling the hunts (or used cars, etc.) usually looks for the guy that knows no better!!

If the outfitter won't accommodate you, you are screwed. If you complain in an open forum, you'll get black balled because there is always some other guy to take your place the next time around. Just think of the PH's that are hunting 200 or 250 or more days a year. Are you really a top priority? There is always enough repeat clients that you are, in reality, expendable.

All of this is why it is not such a bad thing to hunt with some "kid" PH that is more focused on you than the corporate structure and financial statements.

Well, now you know what Terry Carr's suggestions are worth! You can sign papers and contracts til the cows come home, but in the end they are useless.

Since there are two (?) leopard hunters scheduled to be in your camp, I assume you are not going to South Africa. A lot of guys turn up their noses at hunting in South Africa but it is probably a lot better equipped and oriented for a family experience.

At this point you don't have any other choice but to go and try to make the best of it.

Report on what happened when you get back. If it sucked, then it will be interesting to see if you complain about it.

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
At this point you don't have any other choice but to go and try to make the best of it.

I'd follow that.

quote:

Originally posted by mouse93:

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
At this point you don't have any other choice but to go and try to make the best of it.

I'd follow that.

Guys, Wannabebwana asked:
"So, my choices are, stay at the first camp with 2 hunters I don't know, and possibly limit my hunting opportunities, or moving to the other camp and disrupting my family's plans and causing them a lot of extra time on the road, not to mention the extra expense.
What would you do?"

I think that, after taking all the above fair and experienced comment into account, you are going to really have to decide based on your own assessment of yourself and your family...

Are you a guy that enjoys meeting others and mixes easily?
When you have stayed at holiday resorts, hotels etc. do the other guests generally add to your pleasure or to your annoyance?
What would your family think of other guest being there?
How important is the "family alone time" within your whole grand plan?

And perhaps insist on the conatct details of the other hunters NOW and get in touch with them first. That might help you evaluate the situation better, and I think it would be highly unreasonable of the outfitter not giving you their contact info given the facts you mention.

Whatever you finally decide, I wish you and your family a GREAT first safari, and many happy returns !!!

I'm a new guy here so my opine might not be worth much....BUT...if we are talking about Zim, I am sure there are more than a few outfitters out there desperate for clients who would be willing to offer you an exclusive camp. Post your preferences here, and the agents will come out of the woodwork. I also think that the industry in general has become accustomed to clients who are SO SO SO excited about their safari that they will NEVER cancel if the terms change at the last minute. That is just plain unprofessional and unacceptable. The "this is africa" excuse is a crutch 90% of the time IMO. Frankly, it is up to US to change this practice. Politiely tell the outfitter you have flexible air tickets and you want your money back or that you are considering taking your refund to an outfitter willing to offer you exclusivity. If he's in Zim, you will likely (perhaps definitely) get your exclusive camp (one way or another).

JMHO,

tendrams

quote:

Originally posted by Stephen Palos:

quote:

Originally posted by mouse93:

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
At this point you don't have any other choice but to go and try to make the best of it.

I'd follow that.

Guys, Wannabebwana asked:
"So, my choices are, stay at the first camp with 2 hunters I don't know, and possibly limit my hunting opportunities, or moving to the other camp and disrupting my family's plans and causing them a lot of extra time on the road, not to mention the extra expense.
What would you do?"

I understood that Will suggested that he should stick with first plan - if he did, than I second that - "stay at the first camp with 2 hunters"

So, basically, the consensus seems to be that a contract with an outfitter isn't worth the paper it's written on, and the outfitter is free to break the contract with no reprecussions? Then why sign one in the first place?

If you're contracted for certain specific accomodations and then, for whatever reason, they get changed, the consensus is that you're screwed.

I'm no lawyer, but if that happened to me, I'd get one.

Go on the hunt or not, share the camp or not, but regardless, your plans of 18 months have just been cancelled by someone willing to pay more than you have for a hunt with a particular PH, or someone getting greedy and adding on a couple of other people to screw up your family trip.

Good luck.
I know if that happened to me, I'd be spitting mad.

Just to clarify for the maddening crowd, the hunt is in Namibia. You guys will never earn your junior Dick Tracy detective badges at this rate.

Wannabebwana:

Having mulled over your "choices" for a bit, of the two evils, I think I'd take my chances with the planned camp with the two other people. I'm not saying I'd like it, but it COULD be a pleasant experience, it could be a neutral experience, and it is somewhat unlikely to be a negative one (in my experience most hunters are fun interesting people but that is subject to my approximate 5% rule, that is in every crowd of about 20 to 30 people there will be one natural born, complete asshole who can't help it) and I'm quite sure that 4 hours additional drive for your wife/kids touring is not only unpleasant but will lead to some friction either between you or between the transport arrangements. Finally, if the owner is the PH, at the end of the hunt, I'd make clear that his "tip" disappeared with the change in plans. If it is someone else, then I'd tip him as usual, since he had no control or input into your problems.

I have another thought regarding your credit card question.....if you can get them, take US dollars in cash (not sure of convertibility of Can$ but that is a second option and should be no problem, check with your PH), convert them at the WDH airport, (usually the best rate, contrary to almost everywhere else in the world) and avoid the use of credit cards as much as possible. I'm not really referring to Namibia, but credit card misuse, meaning they steal your numbers and use them elsewhere is a major problem in Africa. This can create a real problem for you, the actual user, since the credit card companies security will usually catch it shortly and stop YOUR use of the card until the situation is clarified. I didn't use my CCs at all in Namibia, although I had them in case of an emergency. Costs in Namibia are quite reasonable and a few thousand dollars will go a long ways towards covering your families tourist activities. Some people seem to think carrying cash is akin to having leprosy, it ain't and I'd have zero concerns about carrying relatively large amounts to Namibia, especially with your flt schedules. Exchange rates vary constantly, when I arrived about 3 weeks ago, we got 8.2 N$/US $, when I left it was 7.6. (Hint: There are two money changers at the WDH airport, side by side, a Thomas Cook (on the left as you face them) and a bank on the right. The rates are posted, but Thomas Cook seems to have a bit better rate every time we looked. I was amazed to watch people go to the bank and get less money in exchange, but some people don't do numbers very well.) Just as an example, I exchanged $2000 US for N$ at the airport, did an extensive and relatively expensive tour of N. Namibia for 6 days, paying for all diesel fuel for vehicle, food, and most lodging for 3 people and was just a few dollars worth short and this was by no means a budget tour.

Oh, and one final thought, I'm not sure of Can credit card company policies, but it is common in the US for "unusal" pattern charges to cause your credit cards to be "held" until the user clarifies the use as being legitimate. For instance, if you live in Can and normally make all you charges in one province and suddenly a couple of relatively large charges pop up in Florida, in the US it would be quite likely that that CC company would block your card until you called in. Bottom line, it is a good practice to alert your CC company that you are going to Germany and Namibia and will likely be using them there. It's a courtesy on your part which might save you considerable problems on location, so to speak.

As it says above...... be sure and alert your CC company of when and where you will be.

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
Well, now you know what Terry Carr's suggestions are worth! You can sign papers and contracts til the cows come home, but in the end they are useless.

Another good point - as with every business there must be a TRUST thing - there wasn't and it will never be a contract that someone can't baffle so try not to bother - someone promised you something, so go along - once you have to deal with what is written and what isn't - its all after the fair.

Thanks for all of your responses. I'm not going to ID the PH at this time, because I've still got to go on this hunt, and don't want it to start on any worse a note that it already has. I'm sure you all understand just how much of an impact a non-cooperative PH can have on a hunt. While knowing who it is might help you all out in the future, at this point, it's my dime, and I'm not going to risk it.

I let my wife make the final call because, tbh, I'll be out hunting, and she's the one who will be in camp and doing the day trips with the kids. I've tried to plan all along to make sure that there were going to be activities and tours which would keep them occupied while I'm hunting. That's why the other camp 4 hours away is not an option. They specifically planned for the things they wanted to do and see in the area I'm hunting.

This is the e-mail I sent off to the outfitter. I haven't yet received a response:

We've decided to stay in (original camp) and do the daytrips that have been arranged. It would require too much time and expense to try to do these things from (the other camp). We trust that the other gentlemen have been made aware of the family nature of our trip and will be happy to accommodate my wife and our children.

I am happy to hunt with (alternate guide). Will you confirm that he will be my guide for the entire hunt?

While my wife and I both enjoy alcohol, I've also had the unfortunate experience of being with hunters who abuse alcohol. I don't know (A) or (B), but I hope that they are serious hunters, like me. I am giving fair notice that I will not expose my wife or step-children to drunken boors. Should there be any issues in this or any other respect, I expect that you will make any and all changes necessary to rectify the problems.

AFA the credit card issues, thanks. I've already contacted my CC company to let them know I'll be there, but have also resolved not to use it unless necessary, because I don't want to pay their exchange rates.

Touch call...

This would certainly get my alarm bells ringing..

One thing that many of the sour hunt reports have on here have in common is that the hunt starts with either the PH or the concession being switched last minute..Given the stipulations you made when you booked this hunt, there is no way short of death or war, the outfitter should pull this sort of thing on you.

I notice how he has done it in increments and right at the last minute hoping that you being a decent fellow would just roll over...

This Outfitter really should be named for trying to screw up a trip of a life time for you and your family!