Hopefully he will be identified after the hunt.

I think your e-mail was well-thought out and put your outfitter on notice that you will try and be flexible but will "call in your chits" and demand resolution if things go south. That is certainly fair to both parties.

On two hunts in South Africa and once in Zim I shared camps with other hunters for a portion of the trip and everyone got along famously. Keep positive. We all had shared hobbies (guns and hunting) so conversations around the campfire were always entertaining. One of these gents hunts Africa often and we still stay in touch and see each other at DSC every year where we catch up on each other's exploits. Maybe I was lucky? Maybe hunters for the most part are good folk... I remember what Hemingway said about his friends as he got older...

But if your outfitter's references checked, which I am sure they did, he will also be concerned about your family and you having a great time. Nothing causes a spiral in business like bad press, regardless of the business you are in. And competition is keen for clients... so go have a great time and focus on a half-full glass. I, knock on wood, have never experienced a bad safari... some are better than others but it is Africa and you do have to remain flexible. Hunters in camp, quota changes, camp changes, different ph... these things happen and sometimes for the better. If you remain inflexible, things could turn out alot worse. So go and make memories with your family... my toughest African hunts were still so much better than my mediocre N.A. hunts.

You reserved and paid for a private camp. I would accept nothing less.

Wannabebwana

your e-mail to the outfitter is more than fair and extreme reasonableness on your part.

I agree you should only consider naming him after the trip, whichever way it turns out. Now that you and your wife have made your choice you must focus on the pleasure it's going to be.

"Dianna the Huntress" will surely smile on you as just reward for your reasonableness.....

quote:

You guys will never earn your junior Dick Tracy detective badges at this rate.

WB,

I don't know what advise to give you other than what you've already received but if the original agreement was for camp exclusivity that is what you should get. Shit happens on safari but over booking a camp is completely avoidable.

Mark

If the outfitter knows you are upset about not having an exclusive camp, and still will not accommodate you, then you are scrwed not only from the camp standpoint but also from the possibility of the whole experience being resented.

If the outfitter won't accommodate you, you are screwed. If you complain in an open forum, you'll get black balled because there is always some other guy to take your place the next time around. Just think of the PH's that are hunting 200 or 250 or more days a year. Are you really a top priority? There is always enough repeat clients that you are, in reality, expendable.

You can sign papers and contracts til the cows come home, but in the end they are useless.

Finally the truth comes out!!! Hey it's Africa!
Peter.

Mark, 500 Grains and others who advise a stance of "demand what you booked"

I think you are right in terms of WB being fully entitled to demand exclusivity, but his problem is that ON THE FACE OF IT the outfitter has gone quite far to re-deliver exactly that, but perhaps in a manner that now upsets WB's side plans for the family. They have offered better facilities, in exclusivity, but 4 hours away.

WB's dillema I believe, is that there is a strong possibility that things could still work out great if he goes to the first camp, albeit with other company, and WB comes accross as a guy who is prepared to compromise, especially if the outfitter has made genuine attempts for alternative acceptable options.

I think he should follow his gut here, and his e-mail to them does just that very well indeed. I've no doubt that the odds are in favour of him making two extra, very long-lasting, great friendships.

Steve,

All your points are valid. My point is that an over booking of a camp is more than just a woops. It could ruin a safari for some folks and with a litte planning on the operators part it is unecessary.

Mark

If you have a good relationship with the outfitter, and are comfortable that he'll take care of you, go for it. I might phone him ahead of time and "this is ok, but don't screw me!" That way he is on the alert that you will play along IF all the conditions are good. It sounds like where you hunt is more important then with which PH.

quote:

Originally posted by WannabeBwana:
.................................
I am giving fair notice that I will not expose my wife or step-children to drunken boors. Should there be any issues in this or any other respect, I expect that you will make any and all changes necessary to rectify the problems.

I like the quoted part, and your attitude. If you do not get a perfectly satisfactory response to this message very soon I would then suggest a very much harsher attitude and demands. It is not only alcohol abuse by the other hunters that that may cause problems: Roving eyes cast on, or sexual advances made to your wife or teenage stepdaughter(s), queer looks at your stepson(s), risky dirty jokes told to youngsters, swear and foul language in front of young kids, religious differences and just too many other shit causing situations to mention. A family hunting holiday should be exactly that: A family affair, with at most the mandatory PH to guide you. If you wanted to meet strangers you could go about it in many ways, not have it forced onto you by a HO who changes your original plans.

I echo what Stephen Palos said: "Whatever you finally decide, I wish you and your family a GREAT first safari, and many happy returns !!!"

In good hunting.

Andrew McLaren

WB,
I hope your hunt has a successful and happy outcome. I also hope, that along with the side trips, you get a chance to take some of the family (all) into the bush with you while you are there.
I took my wife and we had a blast. When she wanted, we hunted together. When she didn't want to get out of the buggy we left her with a guide under a nice shay tree. I think she saw as much game as we did doing her sewing in the buggy.

Point is, let them hunt with you if they want to do that.

If the outfitter is in Canada or USA, I'd request my deposit back and cancel. If a refund is refused, sue his ass. If he is in Africa, you're screwed. Hopefully you have all the conditions listed above in writing. Sounds to me like you're getting the old hokey-pokey. Bait and switch bull shit.
Any changes requested by the outfitter, would be fine, if, it was run by you before the hunt.
This one sounds a lot like one a few years by a guy named sheephunter?

quote:

Originally posted by MARK H. YOUNG:
Steve,

All your points are valid. My point is that an over booking of a camp is more than just a woops. It could ruin a safari for some folks and with a litte planning on the operators part it is unecessary.

Mark

I agree with Mark 100%. airlines overbook because they know that statistically a certain number of people will be no-shows. there is NO way an outfitter should do that, considering the deposits involved and the amount of money involved. you see repeated posts on this forum about the importance of getting your expectations in writing to avoid any misunderstandings on the part of both parties. what's the point if crap like this occurs without challenge? obviously greed has overridden good business practice. i truly hope you have a great trip( and you probably will) and the outfitter "does the right thing".

quote:

Originally posted by jdollar:

quote:

Originally posted by DC300:
You're trying to kill too many birds with one stone. Personally I would hunt first and then have my family join me after the hunt.

Secondly, you will probably only see the other hunters at breakfast and dinner. If they are obnoxious, leave the common area and find something to do in your sleeping area. maybe not as much fun but it would solve the problem.

exactly why should he have to " leave the common area" and entertain himself in his room WHEN HE BOOKED THE HUNT 18 MONTHS AGO AS A FAMILY VACATION??? seems to me that he obviously wanted the hunt to be a family experience. sorry but your suggested solution is pure BS. DON'T TAKE THIS CRAP WITHOUT A FIGHT.

It's not BS. It's called being an adult and rising above it.

what part of FAMILY vacation( as opposed to hunting trip) do you not understand?

500 grains has expressed it best. Don't rollover.

Jeff

Well, I ended up sharing camp with a guy I didn't know on last my trip and he was a total pain in the ass. I would never do it again under any circumstances. It turned out well for me, but then again it wasn't a family vacation, it wasn't my first trip and he didn't effect my hunting. Frankly, he stupitity actually afforded me some interesting opportunities.

If you're taking the whole clan you're probably spending some real money with the outfitter, if he doesn't treat you accordingly he is not a good businessman. From the point of view of a former outfitter/guide (admittedly only in Montana) I would say something is not right about the whole thing.

DC300 I agree he should raise above the outfitter and plant a good size 10 up his ass. This whole thing is BS from the outfitter. Moving a whole family instead of a couple of other hunters. Just plain BS.

quote:

Originally posted by Matt Norman:
How about a different mind-set...a postitive one. If it's a legit, established outfit they will bend over backwards if you are just a little flexible with them.

Nothing is perfect, especially Africa! You gotta be able to roll with the punches. I don't care if you get the primo camp all to yourself or not you might still run into some problems (lost luggage, wounded game, sickness, etc). Certainly communicate with your PH your concerns (and document it). But you and your family can still have a great time.

Now if the Outfitter does a bait and switch, go ballistic and put out the bad word on him. But if they work their butts off taking care of you and put you onto game, be happy.

+1 90% of a great hunt is the attitude you arrive with you are out of your office enjoy it dont worry too much

Way back in 1990 I booked a safari with Errol Winson of Elephant Hills Safaris, perhaps someof the members had the pleasure of hunting with Errol. I unfortunately did not! The reason I did not was because this first safari was to be THE FIRST SAFARI in Mozambique. Errol in the process of setting up the camp was over run with armed "former" guerillas and several camp staff lost their lives in the process. Errol did everything in his power to transfer my deposits and make a decent hunt available to me. Enter Zambezi Safaris (PH A J Van Heerden)and the Chewore North concession many members have had the pleasure of hunting in. While I never got the lion I so wanted for many years I did get a fabulous Leopard, a 57 1/2 inch Kudu, and a 43 inch Buff among many fine trophies and a hunting experience which I still rate as the apogee of my lifetime hunts.

All of this was done in less than 2 weeks before our departure. I trusted Errol, and was not mistaken, and made friends with A J and had a very special time with my bride. Life is what you choose to make of it, so take a chance and be positive.

I would have to side with those who are telling you to lean on the outfitter. I have been trying for years to get my wife to come to Africa with me. If I finally succeed, and we take the kids with, I would do exactly what you have done: book an exclusive camp and try to arrange some non-hunting stuff for the non-hunters to do if they don't want to tag along with me. If I discovered that at the last minute I was going to have to share that camp with two strangers or agree to be moved to another camp that made the non-hunting activities difficult, well, I would go ballistic. That really is inexcusable.

True, you could get lucky and the others in camp might turn out to be great people. (Last year I unexpectedly shared camp with a couple other guys for a couple days and they turned out to be a lot of fun. I still stay in touch with them.) On the other hand, I had a VERY bad experience a few years back on a caribou hunt. My brother and I ended up sharing a 12'x 20' cabin for six days with three strangers, one of whom was the biggest a-hole with whom I have ever had to spend more than three minutes. We almost radioed the outfitter to move us-- anywhere-- just to get away from him. If a guy like that ended up in camp with me and my family... I just don't even want to think about it.

Insist on the other guys being put somewhere else or get you money back.

quote:

Originally posted by WannabeBwana:
What would you do?

I think you're asking the wrong question. You already drew a line in the sand and had written agreements with the PH about your requirements. Those agreements have been violated by the PH.

Now, you're attempting to draw new lines in the sand, and agreeing to the changes your PH has imposed on you but demanding that you not have to put up with certain other things. Other things that wouldn't be an issue if the original agreement was met. I.e. exposing your children to a couple of boozers.

The thing is, I don't see how you're in a position to demand anything. You're already being forced to put up with conditions that are not what you specified. Those conditions, by the way, weren't all that difficult. A specific PH and a camp for the exclusive use of you and your family that could accommodate your varied interests. And, no small matter, your PH agreed to your conditions in writing.

Now you are being forced to choose; you can either have the exclusive camp and the PH but stay where your family can't do as planned, or you'll have to share a camp and hunt with a different PH so you can stay where your family can pursue their varied interests while you hunt.

I think it's obvious that you're finding out about the changes at the last minute because your PH knows that puts you in a difficult situation. He has your deposit, you've booked your flights, etc., so he's got you over a barrel. Your negotiating position will not get any stronger once you're in camp.

If he wants to cater to the leopard hunter at your and your families expense, what sort of leverage will you have to get him to do otherwise? The leopard hunter paid for his vacation, too. If he and the other guy wants to sit around camp and ruin their livers, who are you to say otherwise? It's the "golden rule;" he who has the gold, rules. Since you're there for plains game, you're apparently not the one spending the big money.

Your PH has already made it clear that accommodating you is not his priority, despite what he agreed to in writing. Your PH may just as easily decide that any future promises to you are just as binding. Actually, ignoring your e-mailed demand will probably come even a little bit easier now that's he's gotten away with ignoring your written agreements.

So far, the majority of opinions seem to be that you should just go and make the best of it. Which is funny, because generally the people on this board are sticklers for the client doing his due diligence and getting agreements in writing. Be advised, if you go, don't come back here and whine. Because the consensus then will be that it's your fault for agreeing to the changes. Or for having a bad attitude. Or some other reason will be found to blame you for the failure of your safari. Because on the Accurate Reloading forums, PHs, apparently, don't have to live up to their end of a contract. The client, though, must not only fulfill his part of the contract but must be prepared to take what the PH gives him and like it.

But I don't think you were asking for advice on how to develop a positive mental attitude toward getting reamed by your PH. So I wouldn't ask what others would do. Instead, I'd ask how to get some leverage over this guy to ensure he doesn't decide to degrade your family's vacation any further, and, failing that, how to get your money back if he decides to just keep hosing you. A lot of people will tell you that contracts with PHs are unenforceable, but since so many have US bank accounts I don't believe that it's necessarily true that they're beyond your reach.

I realize that this will piss some people off who believe that what I'm suggesting somehow violates some sort of sacred bond of trust between a PH and a client. But this guy has already demonstrated that a written agreement means nothing to him, so he doesn't deserve trust. Trust should never be just given, it should be earned.

In any case, for your family's sake I think you should explore ways to hold the PH to his word, and let him know that you can hold him to his word. If you can't, then I'd be up front with your wife and say that there is no way to guarantee that your PH will try to meet any future "demands" any better than he's met the past written agreements.

I guess I would also add that if the outfitter does not make things right with you, tell all of us here who this guy is. The outfitting industry lives on word of mouth recommendations.

From reading prior reports about your PH, it sounds like he is highly thought of by several AR members. Have you tried talking direct to these other members about your concerns?

Have you considered getting contact info from the PH for the other hunters, contacting them and see how they will react to a family in camp? They might sound like people you'd like to meet or they may help pressure the PH for another area if a family atmosphere in camp is not to their liking.

China Fleet Sailor...GREAT post.
Peter.

Check your PM's.

Judging from your old posts, this is the same place I booked with that informed me of changed plans at the airport in Windhoek.

I think you'll still have fun though. Just keep a positive attitude . . . ain't much else you can do at this point. Like I mentioned previously, the other hunter and his wife were nice and I think I enjoyed the trip more for their company.

And DO NOT use Namasas Taxidermy or Namibia Safari Services. You can check my old posts about my experience. I'd suggest talking to Pam Foerster about shipping and get a recomendation from her for dip and pack.

I'm with Mark and 500 on this one, make him stick to the agreement or demand a refund. Your the one paying for and you should be the one setting the rules not him.

I don't know Wannabebwana but realistically I think it is absurd for someone to say, "Demand a refund." Give me a break. What about his scheduled vacation time for him, his wife, and kids? I'd love to have all these "refunders" look them in their eyes when they hear, "Sorry, Africa is off the table for this year."

What about the at least $8000 bucks in airline tickets he'd be pissing down the drain? There isn't any insurance that covers "I don't like the deal anymore." as far as I know.

What about his deposit, which he has nearly zero chance of recovery?

Yes, I think it's a raw deal, and yes, I think he's not being treated right, but sometimes you've got to take the lesser evil.

Finally, since his hunt is not over yet, I think we should all give this a rest. Most views and opinions have been expressed, let him make his choices. Free advice is worth it's cost and I certainly hope they have a great time and a great hunt. Bon voyage.

Some of these guys remind me of the ones who wouldn't shoot the 56 inch buffalo in another thread. Yeah, right. I'd like to see what you'd do in his shoes if it was your money and your family vacation on the line. It's one thing if it's just you, but add your family and two kids who've been looking forward to this for a year or two into the equation and say, "Refund, Refund." Yeah right. This is the same way I felt if those purists were standing there, that 56inch buff appeared, PH says, "DAMN, biggest buff I've ever seen, SHOOT! SHOOT!" and they'd say, "Nah, he's not hard enough for me, or Nah, he's not broomed off enough for my standards." Yeah right.

I would say it is a little too late to be backing out. I would go and take the second camp offered because of the wife and kids. If I were going alone, I would choose the camp that has the best hunting opportunities. I enjoy a camp to myself, however on several of my safaris I had other people show up in camp, and it was never a problem, it livens up the conversations around the fire at night. The problem might be when the other hunters find out they will be sharing the camp with a family with kids.

quote:

Originally posted by Peter:
China Fleet Sailor...GREAT post.
Peter.

+1,000.

quote:

Originally posted by Gatogordo:

<Yes, I think it's a raw deal, and yes, I think he's not being treated right, but sometimes you've got to take the lesser evil.>

It just seems to me (JMHO) that if the PH is shafting him on this, what else will he have to 'compromise' on at the expense of his family?

I think something else to be considered is what these other two hunters contracted for and when. I love kids, but if I plan a trip without mine I'm not going to be happy putting up with someone else's. Some men are funny about women (other than staff) being in camp also. What if those guys show and maybe are okay guys but they feel like they've had things run in on them also?

I think under the circumstances you have every right to ask for their contact info so that you can call - not email - them and find out a few things. If you decide not to do that, then I would insist that I got what I contracted for. If you were going alone I would say go with the flow, but with wife and kids along you have more to consider.

If you said how old the kids are I missed it but that might also come into play. For instance if your kids are planning on bringing ipods, nintendo, etc. I know a guy who feels very strongly that those things have no place in a safari camp and neither does anyone who wants to bring them. What if you had to put up with an attitude toward your entire family based on something that simple?

Just my two cents. Good Luck!

I

quote:

Originally posted by Peter:
China Fleet Sailor...GREAT post.
Peter.

Yes, it is.

Twice I was moved to a different camp than I expected. My first trip I was doing a 10 day hunt with buff and sable as primary objectives. My hunt was to be in Matetsi. Second day I was moved to a camp near Gwaai because sable hunting was better. I shot a 42 inch sable and a nice buffalo so I was happy. I finally discovered a last minute elephant hunt was scheduled so I was moved. All ended well other than not spending 10 days in Matetsi.
Second time I was the beneficiary. We were hunting leopard near West Nicholson and the weather turned really bad. Raining cats and dogs. Miserable conditions and the cats went into hiding. A call was made to the Zambezi area camp and it was blue skies. The hunter there was asked and graciously agreed to share camp with us. We had a great time and enjoyed the camp even more and found ourselves very compatible with the other hunter.
Sometimes these things work out for the best. If I were in your shoes with plane tickets and the families anticipation< I would probably take a chance but tell the outfitter you expect some type of consideration for your understanding. He may offer a good deal on another animal as a piece offering. I've never had much luck when lines are drawn in the sand and ultimatums issued. Good luck!

quote:

Originally posted by Sambar 9.3:

quote:

Originally posted by Gatogordo:

<Yes, I think it's a raw deal, and yes, I think he's not being treated right, but sometimes you've got to take the lesser evil.>

It just seems to me (JMHO) that if the PH is shafting him on this, what else will he have to 'compromise' on at the expense of his family?

Hopefully it will not be the case and the safari is enjoyed by all, but the writing is already on the wall for this safari. The outfitter before the safari begins has already decided he doesn't need to keep to his side of the agreement.

Looking to see the hunt report on this one afterwards.

Personally if I was taking the family on an agreed exclusive camp safari that is what I would be looking for. Would not give a stuff how many other guys on here can say "I really enjoyed the other clients' company". A deal is a deal and so what, sometimes they are enjoyable and sometimes they are not.

Of course if the safari turns out to be a mess, tell your kids to act up and be annoying as possible, so the other clients ask to leave instead ... After all maybe that is why you asked for camp exclusivity in the first place.

Being ffffed around can work two ways you know.

quote:

Originally posted by Gatogordo:
Just to clarify for the maddening crowd, the hunt is in Namibia. You guys will never earn your junior Dick Tracy detective badges at this rate.

Well I've just won my Dick Tracy badge and polished it too.

Originally posted by NitroX:

"Of course if the safari turns out to be a mess, tell your kids to act up and be annoying as possible, so the other clients ask to leave instead ... After all maybe that is why you asked for camp exclusivity in the first place.

Being ffffed around can work two ways you know. "

I just plain like the way this boy thinks!

Here is an alrernate suggestion. Take the second camp -- the private one. Tell the outfitter he has to come up with alternate day trips for the family at 1/2 cost because you had to change plans. Perhaps the other guys will move then.