Thought I'd start a fresh thread on my used double rifle experience. The other is getting fairly long, and probably now takes more "wading" than many care to go through.

I appreciate the interest and suggestions. There have been several useful suggestions and insights – including a couple from folks offline who have connected the dots. As I’ve had no indication from Seller that he might want to make this easier, I probably should provide a bit more information. Some others may learn from my admitted bad judgment.

Before committing to buy, I had several discussions with Seller. In retrospect, I have to reflect that he was pretty adept at steering conversations to peripheral issues. (possible warning sign?)

I made clear that my intent was to obtain a sound accurate rifle, relatively quickly, to support my near term African intentions. (haste makes waste! – warning?)

Seller expounded on need to sell quickly to meet current obligations – therefore the good deal. Now I couldn’t imagine why this came into one of the discussions; Seller said he could easily go see his Mother for an advance on his annual $30K Christmas stipend! (Yep, he really said that…) Seller said his personal standards /honor made that a less attractive alternative than selling his prize double.

Seller represented himself as a “knowledgeable and experienced†owner of at least three prior/current double rifles. (From a real expert, I now know Seller to at least be “experiencedâ€)

Rifle was not shipped clean. Either Seller’s standards/attention to detail are a bit lacking, or his close-in vision is slipping. The latter could also explain his not discerning the off face condition that I suspected, and that JJ confirmed and corrected.

I can’t rationalize Seller sending loads and brass essentially “loose in a sackâ€. (standards, attention to detail?– warning?)

Seller did not provide loading data and history even after several requests. That’s for the loads sent and, if different, those that produced the touted 2.5†regulated accuracy. (evasiveness, dependability, attention to detail? – warning?)

Seller has not yet sent the “custom loading dies made by Hornedy for $200†that were part of the deal. JJ’s inability to develop loads using standard dies and the fact that the A-Zoon snap caps have their shoulders turned down indicate “custom dies†were essential. (veracity problems, evasiveness or just too busy to follow-up on commitments? – warning)

Seller may be hoping I’ll drop this in a few days, or months or a year – or that I’m not fully prepared to risk good money after bad in other “forumsâ€. He’s wrong.

Regards,
Emory

Just go break his legs (figuratively, of course). Have youer lawyer send a registered letter, put his name out on every hunting/shooting board, call the consumer fraud division of the AG's office in his state.

As regards the rifle itself, have your gunsmith make cerrosafe castings of each chamber. That will tell you what the actual dimensions are.

Any time I'm talking to someone about business and they use the words, honor, straight shooter, honest or christian in relation to themselves; I quietly excuse myself from the conversation and leave.

Anyway, cheap lesson.

lawndart

Please note. . . .
If you are buying a used double rifle, and if you don't know about double rifles, it is paramount that you get the rifle inspected by a person or persons who do know about double rifles. You need to do it before, prior or during the inspection period. DO NOT WAIT.

If the seller doesn't want the rifle inspected. . .you need to move on.

Just because a person owns a double rifle, it does not make him aware of what the condition of a particular rifle is or is not.

The buying of a used double rifle can be as treacherous as a Dragon's Tooth Tank Trap.

Bottom line. . .If you don't know, find someone who does know, to begin with, Period!


Emory, when you get the rifle back, I'd like to take a look at it if we can find time to meet up.

Oh, and if you need a double rifle to take on safari, you can take my 450/400 3 inch. I have Woodleigh solids and softs ready to load.

Emory

This is from your other thread. Pardon me from bringing it here but it needs some clarification.

quote:

Emory
new member
Posted Nov 3, 10:45 AM
There appear to be a couple of technically feasible options:

- Rebarrel at ~ $7k and take 9-12 before I can use the rifle.

- Resleeve chambers and barrels for $3.5-4k. That preserves the original appearance which to me is desirable. I like the cost better too...

Either takes 9-12 months and defeats the purpose of the "proven and ready to use rifle", that I went with instead of waiting quite a while for a Searcy in the caliber I wanted.

Regards,
Emory

Where are you getting your prices? 'Rebarrel seems a bit high but rechambering is way out of line.

Rechambering, and reproofing should be no more than $1000 plus some, $250? for re regulation, if needed. Should take no more than a month, including transportation.

You have not said who the maker is or what the caliber is. That could make a big difference on what you do.

The rifle is useless now it seems so you have to do something to even resell it. You cannot resell it as is without full disclosure and then you would be selling it to someone who feels he can fix it and still turn a profit.

If you like the fit and feel than why not fix it and keep it?

It doesn't sound like you will recieve any of your money back so why are you hesitant to post all of the details?

Mickey I can not be sure because I have never had to have my doubles re-regulated, but $250 seens a bit cheep. No guess on the rechambering however the prices he quoted seem close to what I would expect. Not many people are even qualified to work on a Double rifle, those that are are going to want to get paid!

I beleive jj charges $600 + ammo for reregulation.

Geronimo

Emory, I'm new and missed the other thread. What is the seller's name and address? Perhaps one of us lives close enough to go pick up your reloading dies from him?

quote:

Originally posted by ROSCOE:
Mickey I can not be sure because I have never had to have my doubles re-regulated, but $250 seens a bit cheep. No guess on the rechambering however the prices he quoted seem close to what I would expect. Not many people are even qualified to work on a Double rifle, those that are are going to want to get paid!

Roscoe

My personnal opionion is that the rifle should be done by the maker or depending on who that is by another maker. I would not give a valuable rifle to anybody in the US to resleeve the chanmbers without a written guarantee that the rifle will be reproofed and if it fails they will purchase the rifle for the value at the time of the comencement of their work. Obviously that would need to be agreed upon in advance.

No proof loads by the 'smith but by a Proof House in Europe or England. This is not expensive. There are alot of American 'smiths' that will try and talk you out of it because they do not understand the process or are afraid there 'self taught' method is not really that good.

If you choose Holland or Purdy you will pay 2-3 times the cost for their name on the receipt. I one time had a spring made by Holland for a trap grip on a .465. They charged me 175 Pounds for a flat spring that any gunsmith could have made in half and hour. Their value was in the fact that rifle was orignal and in good shape. All previous work had been done by them and the Provence was intact.

It cost $250 to have a rifle regulated at the Proof House in Liege. Plus ammo of course.

I appreciate the various responses and suggestions - also the patience as I've beat around the bush without directly addressing obvious questions, then seemingly ignoring them when posed. That was in the rapidly waning hope that Seller might yet resume communication to see if we could get to a resolution.

Lawndart,

There are castings of the chambers. I also have used a jig and microcrometer to make some rather precise and repeatable measurements of all the loads, fired cases and four cases that I pulled bullets from and weighed charges. It's quite easy to tell barrel differences with the fired cases; and, there is no noticable difference between those that came from Seller already fired, and those that I fired. The previously fired and reloaded (including those I pulled the bullets from) are equally distinct. I also checked the "regulating" loads that John LaSala of Safari Arms Ltd loaded and they plot distinctly.

Mac,

The rifle is a Westley Richards 450/400 3 1/4. I don't think there was any rechambering or wildcatting involved. The "regulating" round box was taped and probably hadn't been opened before I did that to check dimensions. My guess is that they won't chamber any more than the rounds JJ loaded, or the A-zoom caps before they had their shoulders turned. Some of you experts could possibly come up with explanations about that. JJ didn't seem to find that inconsistant with an extreme overpressue firing some where in the rifle's history.

Rusty,

Thanks for the offer on the use of your 450/400. Think I'll probably default to a 416
to be built, or my 375. However, I've got two unopened boxes of .411 Woodleighs solids and softs you are welcome to - possibly I could put a few of those through your rifle in a range setting, or at a buddy's ranch out at Bellvile.

Mickey,

The $7K for new barrels is what I think I remember from Champlin's site. The nearly $4K for resleeving of both chamber and bore is based on JJ's estimate. Understand we are talking about making significant chamber and bore damage safe - something like a barrel inserted inside a thin outside shell of what is there now - that's my interpretation - don't challenge JJ on that.

I'm a bit keyboard challenged at best, and have fielded three phone call since starting this about an hour ago. Will try to keep up with some of the questions but that's tough most days.

Regards,
Emory

quote:

Originally posted by Emory:
I appreciate the various responses and suggestions - also the patience as I've beat around the bush without directly addressing obvious questions, then seemingly ignoring them when posed. That was in the rapidly waning hope that Seller might yet resume communication to see if we could get to a resolution.

Do I understand you correctly in that the seller is known here on AR, or even a member? The seller better make good on this, as the truth always comes out eventually.

I hope you get your money and expenses back Emory. Good luck.

Emory,
My rifle is a .408 caliber 450/400. I appreciate the offer.

quote:

Originally posted by George N:
Emory, I'm new and missed the other thread. What is the seller's name and address? Perhaps one of us lives close enough to go pick up your reloading dies from him?

Check out Emory's post in this thread:
https://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tp.../468105813#468105813

Then draw your own conclusions about who sold him the rifle.

Don,

Not exactly rocket science huh???

quote:

Seller said his personal standards /honor made that a less attractive alternative than selling his prize double.

So much for "Personal Standards & Honour"....



FB

Folks:

The below was posted by Emory back on August 17th.

The "Judge" mentioned the Westly Richards has been, "sold and sent...". It has also arrived; and is even better than described. Part of the commitment was that that if it gets sold again, he gets first refusal.

I received a very similar e-mail and at least two telephone calls from Emory stating that he absolutely accepted the rifle during (and after)his "refusal" period. One was even on a cell phone from Egypt. I had offered to send the rifle to JJ or whomever he wanted for inspection before acceptance, also. He said no, he's an engineer, West Point Grad, Army Rifle team member, etc.

I have no idea what Emory did with the rifle after he got it. I do know that Several AR members have seen, held, inspected and shot the rifle with no complaints as Emory mentions except very similar words to Emory's "better than expected"..

The first time I heard any complaint was over a month after Emory had the rifle and all the e-mail was responded to. This was after he called me from Africa where and he told me that he had been to Westley Richards in England and was all excited about the rifle, still.

If I sold Emory a rifle that I knew was screwed up, I foolishly took it to Africa and bet my life on it's accuracy and function. I even wrote half a dozen posts about the rifle here and talked about my trials and successes getting it regulated. They were quite public. I even posted pictures, etc. Perhaps I was planning to sell a bum gun months in advance. I guess that some of you think I'm capable of that, though?

I don't have a clue about the reason for Emory's buyer's remorse, but to blame me somehow for what happened in the month between when it was "better than expected" and the month in which he began to complain, particularly since I even offered to pay for his airplane ticket here to shoot the gun before he bought it, (my expense, that is, if he bought it... the offer was made to others here)..... and with his admission that HE was going to work up loads.. I just don't know.

I even suggested that he send his payment to a third party to assure that he could inspect the rifle and be perfectly satisfied before the check was cashed... I could go on forever... Emory can't deny any of this because it is in the trail of e-mails.

I'll probably get trashed about this too... It's alread started, I guess.

So be it, but what more could I have done? Buy back a rifle that the buyer said the was satisfied with, then after whatever... the gun is not in the condition in which it was sent... at least to my sincere knowledge....

I did everything I know of to make sure the gun was as represented to be by me to include inspections, personal visits, etc. to avoid any of this. Now it is my fault, I guess.

I'm not going to be around for a while and am going hunting... not a freebee, for sure! I don't know if I'll post here again or even read the responses to this post. It just isn't fun anymore.

My name is
Ernest Gilbert

My address is

800 G Street
Brunswick Georgia 31520
Telephone 912 261 8339

I've been getting beat up here for the last week, some admittedly because I probably misunderstood the motives of Sheephunter... I don't know why by others, but I do appreciate DonG' finding Emory's post stating that the rifle was "better than expected".

I leave my address and telephone number because I'm tired of this anonymous stuff and if someone wants to come by my office and just knock the crap out of me in person, come on. It couldn't hurt much more than some of the comments from people who I had considered friends. I hadn't responded earlier because this kind of stuff on the internet seems to only attract comments for folks that only know 1/2 the story.

Someone suggested that Emory sue me. I guess that is his option, but considering that
1. he accepted the rifle and even said it was better than expected,
2. refused offers for a personal inspection/visit to my home at my expense
3. refused my offer to send the gun to JJ before he accepted it or shot it
4. He had the gun a month before he ever told me that there was a problem (when he received it or created after he got it.. and shot it with who knows what? JJ mentioned monometal solids?

Who knows...

Now beat me up for selling a guy a rifle that I dearly loved, showed off every chance I got, let many others here shoot and used it when my own life was on the line. I hope that means something to someone.

The comment about my Mother, doesn't deserve a response.


Ernest

JudgeG,

Didn't you would and lose a buffalo in Tanzania with that rifle, and after returning didn't you tell someone here on AR that you thought there was something wrong with it up and immediately put it up for sale?

And since Emory only shot the rifle once (using your ammo), isn't it pretty darned clear that the problem existed when you sent the rifle to him? Maybe the problem was not easy to detect. Heck, JJ did not even find the problem until after he put the gun back on face.

And what about the custom dies that were promised but not shipped?

No, I didn't wound a buffalo with this rifle. I used the .405 Winchester and failed to make sure that the Lyman 21 was secure.
Remember I sold my motorcycle, too. I guess it had something the matter with it too. I did take an impala with the Westley Richards and had it when the "lion incident" happened.

The thread that you may be referencing had to do with me not being able to see well enough to hunt animals at 80 yards with open sights... elephants being a different deal. All this was openly discussed for those who wish to remember.

Emory wrote me that he had shot the rifle much more than twice, explaining groups, bragging on his prowess as an Army marksman. I have the e-mails, I'm sure. If he only shot the rifle twice with the loads I provided (loaded to A-Square figures with Woodleighs), what was he shooting the rest of the time?
I wanted to correct this last questions... before I go.

Original double trouble thread

Ernest (AKA JudgeG),

You are quite welcome to my help.

I am glad you are owning up to your actions here.

It is quite obvious that you are a reasonably good lawyer when sober.

But alas, the cloak of "officer and a gentleman" seems to be showing a bit threadbare.

As illustrated here again, one should approach any dealings with JudgeG with caution and due dilligence as to the wording and details of the contract, rather than pleadings of "honor and trust", and assumptions of "good faith".

In the thread mentioned above and several similar ones like it you raked poor Russell over the coals for many faults, including showing up for Safari out of shape. Anyone who has seen you, much less hunted with you, knows that that is truly the pot calling the kettle black. You continued to work Russell over mercilessly, and I kept silent - a cowardice I regret to this day. I wonder if your attack was not some sort of pre-emptive strike to keep Russell from speaking up about you?

When I initially saw how you were taking advantage of Emory I again thought "caveat emptor", "not my business", and all the other self-rationalizing excuses one uses to stay away from a sordid mess. But I, like Canuck and many others see this place as a welcome home where I meet my friends, so your continued thriving presence at the expense of others began to cause me increasing unease.

I reckon seeing you repeatedly trying to take the moral high ground in sheepherder's thread was the last straw for me.

I have been a member of AR for many years (and was a moderator for several years). I actually have tens of thousands of posts, and anyone who's been around for that time knows I have never, ever carried out a personal attack nor acted in a rash or troll-like manner. My motive here is the most easily suspect of all - the common good.

I am sure you will throw up some more dust, try to cloud the issue and change the subject again, but I will not be drawn in to further exchanges on this thread. The essence is clear.

I will continue to watch you, as I would watch a poisonous snake living in the walls of my house. Hopefully others now know they need to watch you as well.

Perhaps you could save us the effort, and go and drink your balm from Gilead elsewhere?

Semper Fidelis.

Well this all just plain sucks whichever way it turns out. I do find it interesting that, by all appearances (unless I have missed something which is frequently the case), Champlins is discussing this rifle with Emory as if they are completely ignorant of its previous existence. Tell me something...if something were FUBAR with this rifle while owned by the Judge, where do you think it would have made its way first to even diagnose a problem? That's right, Champlins! Wanna know if the Judge knew something before the sale that he held back or if the purchaser may have screwed the pooch himself....try to get Champlins to spill the beans one way or the other. In my experience, there is no client/gunsmith privilege like we expect from physicians or attorneys. I have my own suspicions as to what one might discover upon such an inquiry but that is based on the fact that the Judge has never been accused of anything like this before and that he has repeatedly invited me, a total stranger, to stay at his place and hunt with him if I am ever in the neighborhood.

JMHO,

JohnTheGreek

Ernest's posts above tell me more about what I've been in the process of discovering.

I did ALL my shooting with the rifle over the course of the morning after the loads and cases arrived. Later that day I went to London/Egypt for about three weeks. Ernest knew of my schedule before we agreed on the purchase. As I recall, mention of my long dated competitive shooting experience only came out in response to his insinuation that any accuracy problems with his 2.5" capable rifle would be related to my inexperience with a double rifle.

I think I shot three 4 shot groups offhand and 2 rounds sitting. I did get distinctive groups from each barrel. Between each group I let the rifle cool 30-45 minutes. All shooting was done with the ammunition he provided. I did not, and still do not have dies for the rifle I have never shot it again. When I got back about three weeks later, I used the rifle to pop the caps from the four rounds I had pulled (using a 416 collet puller) and weighed. Within the next couple of days I sent the rifle to Champlin's expecting, at worst, I'd have a re-hinge and need to the barrels re-regulated as opposed to just ammunition adjustments.

Regards,
Emory

I have no skin in this game and make these comments with no bias to either person. I have bought many rifles, including one Double from people via the web. I did get burned once and thank god it was a minor detail on a cheep rifle. My understanding is that you have 3 to 5 days to inspect a rifle once you receive it. If you are not happy, send it back and get a refund. My second understanding is that if you fire the gun, you bought it...done deal. If I were to buy a rifle like this I would make sure I knew damn well what condition it was in prior to cashing the check. Had this gun been inspected prior to purchase by JJ, the buyer could have returned it and only been out a few bucks for shipping and inspection. Emory, I wish you the best with this gun and as I have stated before, I hate that this happended regardless of how or why.

Roscoe

quote:

Originally posted by ROSCOE: My second understanding is that if you fire the gun, you bought it...done deal. Roscoe

I have only bought a gun once via the Inet/forum, so forgive me I'm still learning, but would this still apply if it was fired using rounds as provided by the seller?

Also, I had assumed that "test firing" was an understood part of the 3-day trial, but sounds like this is not the case?

Well gentlemen, in light of recent posts from both sides, I'm totally confused, and withdraw all my comments on this matter. My posts will be deleted completely, and my participation in this matter will cease forthwith, in both strings!

Good day gentlemen!

Bill C,
I would say it all depends on what you work out with the seller. I look at it this way. Go to the local gun shop, buy a used rifle, go out and shoot it, then try to take it back and say it is not accurate. My bet is that they will say "that is the risk of buying a used gun, good luck". The same would apply with buying a used car. Once again I am not saying this is right or wrong...Just reality. If I ever choose to sell my double rifles, I would be happy to let the seller fire the gun, however I would expect the buyer to do so with me standing next to him. A double is easy to screw up it you jack around with high pressure loads. Case in point, when you buy a new double from Butch, you will get a letter stating that if you fire handloads, your warranty is void. The reason Butch does this is because people have shot hot loads not designed for the rifle, and tried to get him to fix their mistake. Not saying this is what happened with Emory, but it could with anyone.

Generally unless a product is sold with a clear statement that it is being sold AS-IS with no warranty, then an implied warranty goes with the product.
I agree, my point is that it is the buyers responsibility to understand what if any warranty applies.

But regardless of that, why would a fellow sell a damaged gun in the first place instead of getting it repaired first and then selling it?

Just to see if he can!!! There are a lot of less than honorable people out there!

PHEW! Call me naive, but I did not connect the dots. I have to go back and regroup. This is a sad day for many reasons. I am confused and saddened at the undercurrents that seem to exist here.
Peter.

I'm not even sure why I'm getting involved in this, but maybe my experience will be similar to others.

I bought a "Project Double" out of the classifieds here on AR. It was a beautifully engraved Baretta SXS action, with two high quality .470 express barrels and misc other parts. The seller was a nice guy, explained it was more than he could chew and I bought it.

My gunsmith threw up his hands, as has everybody else who looked at it. I'm afraid I dropped a chunk of change on something that may never get used unless I sell it to somebody who thinks THEY can get it finished. I suspect I am just one of many people who have owned this "project".

I must say the parts sure look nice, and I love looking at them and imagining what they could be, but I'm afraid I let my emotions get in the way of logic. I've bought quite a few things on impulse over the years, and later regretted it.

If you like it, get it fixed and move on. Or sell it as a "project".

I believe dies were mentioned as part of the deal.

If no dies were supplied then I guess the transaction has STILL not been completed, and a full refund could be asked for. Surely by now these should have been able to have been supplied if they actually existed.

If the ammo was supplied much later than the rifle, an inspection period could not begin until the ammo was received, used and the rifle tested. The ammo was presumably part of the 'package' deal.

If only supplied ammo was used in the rifle, how can the seller claim "bulged" or other damaged chambers were not pre-sale or not caused by the seller supplied loaded ammo?


Hiding behind various mechanisms should not be the lot of one who has so loudly claimed honour and integrity and ridiculed other members in doing so.


The dominoes are falling one by one it seems.



I bought a double rifle off a gentleman at AR (not connected with this thread!) and had it sent to Australia from the USA. It arrived exactly in the condition described with everything included in the shipment which was described on the sale. It is good to deal with reputable sellers.

As in all business transactions the terms of an inspection period are negotiable.

For instance, when I have bought expensive guns or rifles, or tried to, I have negotiated longer inspection periods, even up to two weeks. These lomger periods include, with mutual understanding, the opportunity for an inspection by a qualified expert, and firing of the gun or rifle, if deemed useful by the expert, and then time for me to inspect the gun or rifle, assuming it had passed muster with the expert, and fire it if I think its nesseccary.

My obligations for this are to pay all costs and to share the expert's report with the seller as well as to return the gun or rifle, if it is not accepted, in the same condition it arrived and properly cleaned if fired.

With this method I have not been burned, but I am not a very active purchaser either. I have returned one pair of Hussey shotguns, which failed the expert's inspection and did not pursue one pair of Purdey shotguns which the expert advised me not to pursue when a description of the proof marks over the phone by the seller lead to serious questions.

I have had only one seller baulk at my program and he refused to allow the guns to be sent to an expert. The seller was in driving distance of me and I had the opportunity to handle this pair of Lang shotguns. Everything seemed ok but the seller's refusal to allow an expert's review ended the negotiations.

The program is a pain in the butt but its not so bad as the problem Emory and the Judge face.

Hope this helpd someone,

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by JohnTheGreek:
Well this all just plain sucks whichever way it turns out. I do find it interesting that, by all appearances (unless I have missed something which is frequently the case), Champlins is discussing this rifle with Emory as if they are completely ignorant of its previous existence. Tell me something...if something were FUBAR with this rifle while owned by the Judge, where do you think it would have made its way first to even diagnose a problem? That's right, Champlins! Wanna know if the Judge knew something before the sale that he held back or if the purchaser may have screwed the pooch himself....try to get Champlins to spill the beans one way or the other. In my experience, there is no client/gunsmith privilege like we expect from physicians or attorneys. I have my own suspicions as to what one might discover upon such an inquiry but that is based on the fact that the Judge has never been accused of anything like this before and that he has repeatedly invited me, a total stranger, to stay at his place and hunt with him if I am ever in the neighborhood.

JMHO,

JohnTheGreek

John

I know many Double Rifle Collectors, who are extremely knowlegable about Doubles, who would not dream of sending a rifle to Champlin's, for any reason. They are a popular choice because of their size and advertising but are far from the best.

I find this whole thread mystifying. It seems like we are speaking of two seperate rifles. A rifle so far off the face you can see daylight through it. Bulged barrels. Bad Bores.

And yet many members of AR around Georgia have seen and fired it and not one of them noticed all this stuff being wrong?

&

common sense would say it is one of two things. 1. The rifle was "damaged" while hunting in africa and sold upon return. I cant believe it was known bad and taken to africa while a new 470 Searcy sat at home
2. Was damaged while being fired by new owner?
I dont know anyway anyone but the two men involved will ever know the entire truth.
Its a shame to see this stuff happen but hopefully all of us can learn and apply to our own purchases or sales.
Dean

I have read most of the posts from the start. Most questions got answered except.

Where are the reloading dies??

quote:

John

I know many Double Rifle Collectors, who are extremely knowlegable about Doubles, who would not dream of sending a rifle to Champlin's, for any reason..

I don't believe I said anything overwhelmingly positive about Champlin's. However, knowing that the Judge has had dealings with Champlins in the past, it would be my suspicion that (if something had been FUBAR about the rifle) it would likely have made its way to Champlins at some point. I am making the assertion here that, if Champlins is giving the impression to the current owner that this rifle is completely foreign to them (which appears to be the case), it was probably fine when the Judge last saw it.

JMHO,

JohnTheGreek

quote:

Originally posted by JohnTheGreek:

quote:

John

I know many Double Rifle Collectors, who are extremely knowlegable about Doubles, who would not dream of sending a rifle to Champlin's, for any reason..

I don't believe I said anything overwhelmingly positive about Champlin's. However, knowing that the Judge has had delaing with Champlins in the past, it would be my suspicion that (if something had been FUBAR about the rifle) it would likely have made its way to Champlins at some point. I am making the assertion here that, if Champlins was giving the impression to the current owner that this rifle were completely foreign to them (which appears to be the case), it was probably fine when the Judge last saw it.

JMHO,

JohnTheGreek

Sorry, I misread your intent. Since so many seem to think the Double Rifle sun rises and falls on Champlins I thought you might have seen them as the only place to send a rifle for repair.

quote:

Originally posted by ROSCOE:
I have no skin in this game and make these comments with no bias to either person. I have bought many rifles, including one Double from people via the web. I did get burned once and thank god it was a minor detail on a cheep rifle. My understanding is that you have 3 to 5 days to inspect a rifle once you receive it. If you are not happy, send it back and get a refund. My second understanding is that if you fire the gun, you bought it...done deal. If I were to buy a rifle like this I would make sure I knew damn well what condition it was in prior to cashing the check. Had this gun been inspected prior to purchase by JJ, the buyer could have returned it and only been out a few bucks for shipping and inspection. Emory, I wish you the best with this gun and as I have stated before, I hate that this happended regardless of how or why.

Roscoe

Roscoe,
I have had probably 50 plus doubles over the last 35 years. I have not, nor would I buy one without the understanding that I am going to fire it for function and regulation. In by gone days that ment handloads in many cases because factory stuff couldn't be found easily or quickly. No one ever told me to come to their place to test fire it, but the world changes I guess.
Case in point, last winter we were at a convention and saw something interesting. Agreed on a price, told him how I wanted to pay it, he said, "fine, your going to want to test fire it before it's a final deal anyway, take it with you, I'll forward a set of dies and you try it out." I didn't even get to the point of asking to fire it before it was final.
I sure got no dog in this squabble, but sure sorry I am going to miss out on the finale.!
There sure is two sides to this story and miles apart.

quote:

Originally posted by JudgeG:
Folks:

The below was posted by Emory back on August 17th.

The "Judge" mentioned the Westly Richards has been, "sold and sent...". It has also arrived; and is even better than described. Part of the commitment was that that if it gets sold again, he gets first refusal.

I received a very similar e-mail and at least two telephone calls from Emory stating that he absolutely accepted the rifle during (and after)his "refusal" period. One was even on a cell phone from Egypt. I had offered to send the rifle to JJ or whomever he wanted for inspection before acceptance, also. He said no, he's an engineer, West Point Grad, Army Rifle team member, etc.

I have no idea what Emory did with the rifle after he got it.
Ernest

Sounds like a deal consumated to me!

Let's see, Mac,

"consummated": isn't that a fancy word for "fucked"?

Mac,

If I understand the complaint, it is that although the gun looked great when it arrived, it had a couple of hidden defects (off face, bulged chambers, as diagnosed by JJ).

I've had enough of this shit, particularly from "new guys" whose majority of posts since arriving is to flame the fires without all the facts or from others who expect great things on a shoe string budget then when they don't get what they expected whine all over the place.

Well here's a fact: *I* fired that double along with two others before Ernest took it to africa and it shot groups that although would make a Weatherby owner cringe, were pretty close to what the Judge posted. Further, I know for a fact there were no monometal bullets fired out of it, the rifle was tight and very, very clean.

Now let's stop and think, if the rifle was as AFU then, why take it to africa when you have a perfectly good 470 double on hand? To be fair, toe issue of the dies remains to be answered.

Moreover, if the "JJ" that posted here is the same gent at Champlin's further buttresses the fact the gun was fine and if the gun came from Champlin's there is no way George Caswell would sell a gun like that PERIOD without notifying the seller. There is a possibility the rifle could have been damaged in africa, and that is a consideration, but hard to justify when the same ammo was used.

I KNEW the original post that was skirting around the edges would come to this, well here's another lesson, bad news, unlike wine, does not improve with age. When the rifle was first received, it should have been fired and either accepted or rejected. The gentleman apparently accepted the weapon even after it was fired and so stated. Only two people (and God) know the whole story, but from a business POV ( again with the exception of the dies issue and that needs to be resolved), it's a done deal. Finally, YES Ernest is a friend, but you know what? *I* have to look at myself in the mirror every morning too and if had a way of knowing ALL the facts and found Ernest to be in the wrong. well, I've lost friends before. jorge

The lesson is the same as in the Sheepherder thread.

When you engage in a comercial transaction involving a large sum of money treat it as such. Inspect the gun when it arrives, make sure that it acceptable and if not return it immediately. Waiting only muddies the water.

TerryR

TerryR, I agree.

But I'd add: "And be very careful who you engage in business with."