The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Hunting African Big Game Hunting "Used Double Trouble" - follow-up threadGo | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
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jorge, I'm not sure if you are meaning to imply that I am a "new guy". You could not have been around any longer than I. I was on this board when it started as a "list" (was it 1998?). I was also one of the first three moderators - back when it was just Canuck, Bill Tibbe, and me. I just lost my post counts (several times) when the software changed, and it did not seem worth bothering DRG to get them back. I am not some "johnny-come-lately", or a troll. If we don't speak up about problems, then our silence opens the door for the problems to continue or get worse. I am not naive enough to think that any of this will help Emory, but I am Pollyanna enough to hope it helps AR members in the future. I, for one, think Emory was showing great politeness in waiting (albeit fruitlessly) for JudgeG to voluntarily address this issue. If the Judge was proud of his actions and stance on this transaction, why did he not speak up right away? Why did he dodge Emory's calls and not respond to his emails? My guess is because the Judge knew that every day that went by helped his case and hurt Emory's. I am just as sure that at first Emory thought the Judge was a stand-up guy. And our silence allowed that opinion. Don_G ...from Texas, by way of Mason, Ohio and Aurora, Colorado! | |||
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Terry R, Just curious...do you keep calling him Sheepherder as an insult? His screen name is Sheephunter. Canuck | |||
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DonG: nope, I know you've been around. Any comments on my post regarding my observations on the rifle? jorge USN (ret) DRSS Verney-Carron 450NE Cogswell & Harrison 375 Fl NE Sabatti Big Five 375 FL Magnum NE DSC Life Member NRA Life Member | |||
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It is well known that defects in a double can escape detection by a novice. | |||
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Well said there 500gs, I consider myself a novice in that regard. Having said that, I know enough to know what a 3" group@ 50 yards looks like and enough to know when a double is loose or off-face. After all, a man has to know his personal limitations and those of his equipment, like a double for example, a limited weapon with very limited uses... for me. jorge USN (ret) DRSS Verney-Carron 450NE Cogswell & Harrison 375 Fl NE Sabatti Big Five 375 FL Magnum NE DSC Life Member NRA Life Member | |||
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.............And by some who think they are expert!  ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith  | |||
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jorge, I did not see the rifle - ever. Did you see the rifle after it came back from Africa, just before the Judge sold it? Did it have grass under the forearm when you shot it? Who knows what might have happened to it? All I know is that I did not (and still do not) admire the Judge's reaction to the problem. The Judge and Ray jump on people for airing their problems here in public, yet Emory says the Judge avoided (evaded?) him in private. And when Emory began to air his problem here he was still very polite and restrained, and the Judge still would not address it until forced. If you think that behavior rings true for a Marine officer, then they have changed since I was in. I would be a LOT more vocal than Emory if I got sold a multikilobuck wall-hanger. Emory was using these two threads to ask what AR thought of this behavior, and now he knows what at least some of us thought. Don_G ...from Texas, by way of Mason, Ohio and Aurora, Colorado! | |||
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I inquired about this gun when it was put on the market. To the Judge's credit he volunteered there was a difference between the two chambers and ammo could not be interchanged between them. That was enough for me to shy away from further inquiry. Emory, I don't know if you were similarly informed. | |||
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I wasn't going to reply to the folks here again, but LJS, thank you for remembering... of course I told Emory the same thing and have a record of the same, just like I told him I'd pay to have him come shoot it, send it to Champlins, etc. Finally... the truth emerges... Actually, it would close on Bertram brass interchangably, both barrels, but not Mast/Bell. Plane leaves in 12 hours, I'm going to bed! Good night DonG. JudgeG ... just counting time 'til I am again finding balm in Gilead chilled out somewhere in the Selous. | |||
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DonG: As I stated in my post, I did not see the rifle post-africa. Africa can be rough on equipment, but I don't think a rifle can go "south" that fast. All I can tell you is that I shot the damned thing, period. I know you don't believe anything Ernest says, yet you dogmatically believe everything Emory says at face value. I don't know the gentleman but you apparently do as your are vowing for his voracity sight unseen? jorge USN (ret) DRSS Verney-Carron 450NE Cogswell & Harrison 375 Fl NE Sabatti Big Five 375 FL Magnum NE DSC Life Member NRA Life Member | |||
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Now that hit is gonna sting some folks here like a mother. Let us see your spin on this one Don. For crips sake you are acting like a woman scorned , did more happen on that bear hunt than you have let on? | |||
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judge, how were the dies sent? UPS,USPS, Fed-Ex, just curious, cause they sure seem to be taking there time getting there......... | |||
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I take it by that remark that you saw the rifle and thought it was fine? It's quite interesting that Bertram brass worked but Bell did not. Not sure why, but I had had exactly the opposite result several times. In fact I had to toss out a bunch of .500 NE Bertram brass, and also had about 30 rounds of .600 NE brass that was not usable. In both cases the dimensions of the brass was too large. I wonder if the Bertram brass in .450-400 is thicker than the Bell brass, so it does not stretch as much in the chambers. | |||
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Just saw that...thanks, though.  And I thought about this after I posted...my apologies to any actual sheep herders that may have been offended by me jumping to the conclusion that those words might be an insult!  I've been watching re-runs of Rawhide a lot lately!  Cheers, Canuck | |||
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Don_G In any transaction that is worth a lot of money you should be cautious of who you are dealing with. This is not a slap at anyone but a rule to follow. Canuck My use of the word "Sheepherder" was an inadvertant mistake. I have already apologized to Sheedhunter on the relevant thread. | |||
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Another mistake. That should have read I have apologized to Sheephunter" Sorry I can't type TerryR | |||
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jorge, Nope, I don't know Emory, and cannot vouch for the condition of the rifle, nor for his story. I have never said I could, never will. But I do know the Judge, and I do take it from his reluctance to own up here and answer the original double trouble thread that he may have been a trifle uncertain about how this situation would be taken on AR. Since I do know the Judge and I don't know Emory, I think the members can draw their own conclusions. I think the Judge used me, and my brother, and so I fear he might use another. I think the Judge's oratorial anguish about selling his most cherished rifle to meet an obligation was a trifle over-done. The Judge (and some of his his friends) admit he has other rifles of high value as well. Which of us would sell his best rifle in that situation? I know I'd sell the rifle that I cherished least first. (I usually wind up selling my used equipment to a dealer, as I cannot sell even a stranger my rejects.) As far as going South fast, I've read on this site (and I think from Mac as well as others) that even a perfectly sound older double can go South in two shots if monometal bullets or hot loads are fired. Were such loads fired? I don't know. By who? I don't know. In short I don't vow to Emory's veracity, but I do know the Judge's voracity. (Couldn't resist, it was a big fat one, just laying there...) Don_G ...from Texas, by way of Mason, Ohio and Aurora, Colorado! | |||
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TerryR, My point exactly! We are in violent agreement. Don_G ...from Texas, by way of Mason, Ohio and Aurora, Colorado! | |||
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First of all many of you must have easier day jobs than me. I've had time to sort through the mail, drink a beer, eat a cold salad because my wife's out of town for a few days using my frequent flier miles to visit her sister, respond to some e-mail on this end, drink my last beer, open a diet coke and, and now check this forum... Seeing as I started the thread, let me suggest that folks lighten up a bit. You've got to admit that every now and then one like this is better than the, "is a 30-06 (better than) (OK for)", thread. And, I don't want to actually disparage those because some pretty good stuff often comes out. Still, the "he said - she said", bit gets worn out pretty fast and we are probably at/past that point. I made myself at least scan all the posts - normally by the time a thread like this progresses to this point I sort of note it's still going, and skip opening. Obviously, only Earnest and I know what really transpired on disputed issues and even then there are certainly some areas where we said/heard our respective words and still didn't communicate in spite of what we are rather certain of now... Looking at some of the comments, I suggest some need to read more carefully before teeing off. Looking at some of what Ernest and I have posted, I think I can see where his lawyer instincts and my engineer background creep in. I am going to clarify a few points and hope I don't start another round. On the question of chambers differences, I have a note from one conversation that that says, "right chamber slightly tighter?". Notes from another conversation show among other items: "keep track of side for brass?, brass # 80, dies - $200 custom by Hornady". When I tried the rifle out, I did not find any loads that would not chamber in either side and I specifially ran through the lot. After firing, I found found one case that would not chamber in the right barrel. I did not try forcing it and didn't try others that I recall. Ernest post seems to have lost track of when some things came into conversation (that's easy enough to understand, I just had to check)Checking e-mails some shooting experience I have didn't seem to come into the picture until early Oct and that was a result of his suggestion any problems were probably mine. After shooting that rifle, I suspect I could make it seem to hold ~ 4" at fifty yards - that's offhand - in a very unrushed mode. Possibly Ernest is good enough to hold 2.5", or maybe a rest could tighten it up? One thing I do know is that the rifle either arrived with bulged chambers, or it happened when I was firing it with the rounds Ernest provided. I'll take JJ's judgement on the condition, and his opinion that if that had happened when I was firing, I would have certainly noticed. I also know I don't have the promised dies or an explanation as to why - same with loading data. And, I know I wasn't particularly smart about how I rushed into this transaction. Lots of these threads are worse off for the badmouthing - I saw some about Champlin's. For what it's worth, I got rather favorable comments about them (George/ JJ) from a seemingly knowledgeable and responsible person at H&H in London a couple of weeks ago. I started these threads with some hope Ernest would reopen communication and we might settle with something like him covering the repairs. I'd be out the use for a year or so, have learned a lot, and still want a double. Ernest probably has learned something too. He's actually a rather engaging, seemingly personable guy to talk to and it was only when his e-mails suddenly got rather defensive and officious that I stopped regarding him as a, not yet met, friend. Actually might still be and I hope he has a good few days hunting. Life's tough enoughout without these kinds of hassles. Now, if my wife just dosen't ask where the rifle is with the cute tigger and lion on the sides... Regards, and lets shut this one off, Emory | |||
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Emory, Extremely well said, and handsomely done. Hope you stick around here. Adios, Don | |||
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Boy go away for a couple of days,and the world falls apart. Now I have not met the Judge in peron, but a couple of years ago when he placed the Ruger no-1 in 450 nitro up for auction I place a bid, and shortly after that was sent out of town, I missed the closing{which I won}, and missed contacting him as required,I found a message on my machine when I returned home, I contacted him and explianed what had happened, and promtly sent the funds needed, the rifle arrived packed as stated it would be, was want I knew it to be, and shoots well, I don't know what was going on in the other thread. but my dealings with the Judge where done on gentleman terms,, he even invited me down to hog hunt with him, which I had to decline at the time. Just a damn shame this has,had to happen here. Stay Alert,Stay Alive Niet geschoten is altijd mis Hate of America is the defeat position of failed individuals and the failing state | |||
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I just re-read these two threads in their entirety. The other one is:Original Double Trouble Thread I would ask the members of AR to please read them through completely as well, and then decide which of the two principals is an "honorable gentleman." A sharp observer might also remember that Mac was stridently on Emory's side, then when it became apparent the Judge was involved pulled his posts. You may remember that at one time Mac had a post stating this erasure, but he never explained why. Now even the admission of retraction is removed, and all that is left from Mac is reflexive thrashing. The only evidence of Mac's originla stance is in Nitrox's post where he used the automatic function to quote MacD:
Revisionism such as Mac's is not unique, but it is telling, and it is a valid reason to use the quote function extensively in case it evolves that you are dealing with a slimy creature instead of a gentleman. My apologies to Emory for continuing this thread, but I will copy the Judges responses into the next post to preserve the record. Just to preserve the record:
Don_G ...from Texas, by way of Mason, Ohio and Aurora, Colorado! | |||
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Emory asked to drop this whole issue, yet this morning BOTH threads are at the top of the "batting order." This is now between those two gents and Vendettas should be taken off line or to another thread. Incidentally Emory, although I don't know you, I can understand your eagerness to buy the rifle probably clouded your judgement and I thought your first thread should have "cut to the chase" and made things clearer. Regardless, for what it's worth, I have no reason to doubt when you say the only ammo you fired were the ones provided. I'm sorry this happened and I'll honor your request and put pay to this thread. jorge USN (ret) DRSS Verney-Carron 450NE Cogswell & Harrison 375 Fl NE Sabatti Big Five 375 FL Magnum NE DSC Life Member NRA Life Member | |||
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jorge, Your defense of your friend, the Judge does you credit. I hope it may be deserved, for your sake. Your open mind to Emory's position also does you credit. So the stress of this situation has done nothing but elevate my esteem of you, in spite of our differing views of the Judge. Mac's behavior also educates us as to his character, and I felt it was worth pointing out exactly how revisionist he can be. He did not examine his previous position and defend his about face when the Judge's involvement became clear. His actions seem to be aimed at hiding that his original position ever existed. That is worth knowing about a man. I would like to drop this thread as well. You cannot imagine how much I wish Emory was unharmed, as I blame my cowardly decison to not speak up months earlier for his loss. Don_G ...from Texas, by way of Mason, Ohio and Aurora, Colorado! | |||
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DonG I have no problem with your opinion of me or my character, as that opinion belongs to you, and you may state it any place you wish. You are wrong, however, in this case. The reason I deleted my posts was, that I had decided to stay out of this all together, and remove my participation. Then you, and a couple others came out with some things I simply couldn't let slide, so rejoined. If I could put the posts back I would, and maybe Saeed can restore them, and if so I would ask him to do so. As far as being a revisionist, opinoins change as information comes to light, in any thinking man's deduction of facts. Anything else would be, simply, hardheadedness! It is my belief that this rifle was damaged after it was delivered, and I believe it was as Emory stated in his e-mails, and posts on this site after shooting 4 or five , four shot groups, claiming 2.2" groups, stateing that the rifle was better than advertised. These are things I did not know when we were only hearing one side of this story. In a post answering a question to Rusty, Emory stated he had a box of Woodliegh bullets .411 dia, and the rifle in question, I believe was a .408 diameter. If the rifle is in fact a .408, and Emory used any ammo with .411 bullets, that were loaded to 2150 fps, then the swolen chambers, and off face condition, is a given. DonG, I have no idea about the fiasco you guys are discussing that took place in Africa, and couldn't care less, hence the reason I did not follow that pile of crap on the net, so I'm blind where that info is concerened, and can't comment. The statements as to the probable cause of the damage to the rifle are valid in my earlier posts,given the info I had at the time, but a more plousable cause is the one just given to you above in this post,in light of Emory's disclosier of the use of .411 dia bullets! I now wish I had not deleted them because you guys are pulling me into this crap fest anyway. I don't know who is at fault here, but like you I have my opinion, as to who it is. Further, let me enlighten you to one fact, you do not know me, and you may have any opinion you want, that doesn't hurt me in the least, since your opinion is no more valuable than mine. Your post about flag waving ,of Ernest, wihle patting yourself on the back, in public, for buying an amputee his supper, IMO, a telling bit of info on your own character, in regard to what you think of your own worth. That, my fine friend, is worth knowing about you!  ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith | |||
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AMEN Mac | |||
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I've read these post's with a variety of reactions....interest, concern, amusment and finally with disgust (and happy that I don't have a dog in this hunt either) and I do have two questions. (1) Who is Don G and why does he really have such a hard-on for the Judge that he's become the internet prosecuter, judge & jury on his behavior? and (2) When I initially read about the relatively poor accuracy of the double rifle I was a bit suprised but on his most recent post the buyer mentioned the groups were shot off-hand. Who can or would test POI and accuracy of a rifle, any rifle, by firing it off-hand? There is much more to this than meets the eye and one thing for sure it will never be settled until the princpals (edited to remove my typo that said non-principals)are left to deal with it and others quit stirring the pot. DB Bill aka Bill George | |||
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Mac and DB, If you don't know who I am, or why I became involved in this sordid situation, then either you cannot read or I cannot write - and either condition makes any further attempted reply futile. Don_G ...from Texas, by way of Mason, Ohio and Aurora, Colorado! | |||
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Proper etiquette would be to leave your word standing and describe your change of thought in a new post. Editting/deleting your own words/posts after the fact is not cool and just makes you look bad. | |||
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Canuck, I explained the deleting of my post above. If I thought I was going to continue in the donnybrook, I would have left them. I truley wish I could repost them but I can't. You are a moderator, and if there is a way you know of the re-post them from archives, then you have my permission to re-instate them.  I simply do not understand DonG's, or your problem with me, simply because I chose to divest myself of this action all together!  I have no problem with any opinion here, but personal slams are not called for!....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith | |||
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Hey Mac, I don't know if there is a way. DRG would be the only one that would likely know. Your deleted posts are probably in "bit heaven". Jus to be clear Mac, I don't have a problem with you. I have just seen a number of events recently where posts have been modified or deleted after the fact, and wanted to make my feelings known. I am sure you know me well enough by now that while I don't often get into these things, if I have an issue I let people know. It appears to me that Don_G and you (and jorge) have just gotten into a bit of a collateral altercation in your efforts to defend the Judge....I am sure, however, that Don_G's real issue is with the Judge and the Judge alone. They have a personal history that Don_G decided to share in light of things the Judge has recently posted. I think its all pretty clear in Don_G's postings. In case you missed it earlier, Don_G is one of the original three moderators of this site (I was one of the other two). He has been around a LONG time, but there was a couple years recently when he had other priorities that precluded him from spending much time here. I have know him online from the very beginning of AR, in early 1998. I also know Don_G personally...I met him in RSA in 2002, and hunted with him a few times since. He's one of the good guys. Its a shame that this all ended up happening this way. For the record, I am not stepping in to defend or protect Don_G....he is more than capable of handling himself and doesn't need my help. I will vouch for his character, but I don't think that is needed either. I just wanted to provide some facts for you. Cheers, Canuck | |||
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Mac, I would also like to point out that my writing was very poor 'round about "slimy creature". I in no manner had you in mind when I wrote that phrase. I had mentally progressed to the next paragraph, which dealt not at all with you. Back in the early 1970s a "slimy creature" was an enlisted Marine Corps expression for a less than exemplary officer. My only problem with your actions was your very abrupt and unexplained about-face when you found that there might be a tough and ugly situation to face. Don_G ...from Texas, by way of Mason, Ohio and Aurora, Colorado! | |||
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The above must be the problem! I'm not, in anyway defending the Judge,or the other guy either, as you say that is their job. What I am saying, however, is, my opinion is based on the posts made public, after a one sided story, that leveled the playing field some. No matter who is involved, right is right, and wrong is wrong, and till I had a look at both sides, my opinion was one way, and after it was modified some, but not rock-solid, one way or the other, on anything other than the causes of the damage. None of this effected the causes that I posted for the damage, which was my only real involvement in this. My intention was not to take sides from the start, but to try to diagnose the damage. I feel, with what I know now, I can't make any judgement as to who is at fault here, and that is not my job, and it is not that of anyone else on this web-site other than the two men involved. There are some things that point one way more than the other, but are not provable, so I'll not make public judgements as others have in this matter. I see absolutely nothing "SLIMY" about that thought process, as DonG suggests it is. It is evident DonG is carrying some past baggage with the Judge, and I believe it is clouding his judgement to the point he attacks me, simply because I choose to disagree with his snide remarks, and remove myself from their little war! ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith | |||
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Don G....I read your hissy-fit  account about the bear hunt you and your brother went on last year and as I understand you and your brother (I can't tell which is which and who got the bear) both got discounts on the posted price....is that right? If so, I'm not sure why you have taken up the crusade against him. If neither or both of you didn't get a discount but the Judge did for "luring" you on the hunt (without your knowledge) then you have probably have justification for being...and pick your own word here ....unhappy...irritated...disappointed...pissed off. And I wonder if what transpired on the bear hunt traumatized you so much why didn't we hear about it sooner? Again, I don't have a dog anywhere in this hunt but your inability to let any part of this thread die is baffling. One final question. What would it take for your to be satisfied and made whole again? DB Bill aka Bill George | |||
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I too inquired about this rifle and was told that I could/should send it to JJ as well. Judge may have told me about the chambers. I can't recall. But anyone who knows me knows that says more about my memory than anything else. Not making any judgments not accusations. Just adding what I know. FWIW, -Steve --------  www.zonedar.com If you can't be a good example, be a horrible warning DRSS C&H 475 NE -------- | |||
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DB Bill- Give it up. It appears that Don G. is a classless little toad who has a hard on for da Judge and felt that this was a good time to take the boots to him. I have found that whenever anyone tells you (over and over and over again) what an asshole or crook someone is it is usually a good idea to watch your wallet around them as well. | |||
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What are the chances that the chambers were already bulged when JudgeG purchased the rifle from Mr. Moss? | |||
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Let's see: Emory wants the thread to die. And the (custom) dies are where?... Or did I miss something? Peter. Be without fear in the face of your enemies. Be brave and upright, that God may love thee. Speak the truth always, even if it leads to your death. Safeguard the helpless and do no wrong; | |||
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