Bought a used double a couple of months expressly for an African trip(s). With the great weather this weekend I should have been out continuing my practice with the rifle, or better yet, focusing on one of those great end-of-year African opportunities that have cropped up lately. Unfortunately, my enthusiasm for the rifle has deminished considerably. I'll outline the events and ask when you would have become worried/ Or, should I be worried at all??

1. When I initially called about the rifle, Seller ansewered every call, or returned the call promptly. His secretary could always seem to find he was available without a problem.

2. Seller had impressive African experience, had owned at least three double rifles, and I was left with the impression he had owned some others.

3. Seller described the rifle as tight, accurate and African proven. It was a between the wars English double that he said came with 70-80 loaded rounds and fired cases, snap caps and custom made dies from Hornady made from cases fired in the rifle. He said he was only selling it because of cash flow issues. I'll not elaborate - at this time, and hopefully not at all.

4. The day after we settled on a price, my wife sent Seller a cashiers check via overnight mail. The rifle arrived 3-4 days later at my FFL recipient. Seller told me he would be sending 39 loaded rounds and fired cases plus a box (20) of regulating rounds, snap caps and the custom dies. Note that is less than the 70-80 rounds earlier mentioned. He was holding back one round for sentimental reasons as he liked the rifle so much...

5. The rifle looked quite attarctive but was not clean by my standards. It was wet with oil, had grass/dirt between the fore end and barrels, and had dirty oil and grime in the action - a few minutes with a toothbrush and cleaning rag fixed things.

6. I had called about the shipment while waiting on the rifle and found the loads, cases, caps and dies had not yet been sent. Seller needed to pick the dies up from a friend who did his reloading. I reminded that I wanted all components prior to the weekend in order to fire the rifle prior to a three week business trip.

7. On a Saturday afternoon 39 loads and cases, a box of "regulating" rounds, and A-zoom snap caps arrived. The custom dies were not included.
The loads/cases were all loose in a vinyl zipper bag with no loading data.
The "regulating" rounds had 5 sets of four color coded loads with no loading data. The A-zoom snap caps had their shoulders machined down.

8. I sorted the loads/cases into solids, softs and fired in separate plastic boxes.

9. The following morning while outside with the rifle preparing to shoot, I noticed I could see a thin light line between the breech and face. This was noticeable from either side until blocked by the doll's head.

10.I test fired the rifle at 50 yards using four round R/L and R/L groups with 30-45 minute cooling periods between groups. The right barrel produced ~ 3.5 inch groups at the top of the bead. The left barrel group was larger (~4.5") and was 6" to the left and 4" lower. I had two difficult extractions in the firing session. All shots were with loads Seller provided (not the regulating loads).

11. If the groups had converged, I would have not been particularly happy about my group size, but would simply thought I needed more practice.

12. While in London the next few days I called Seller to discuss my initial impressions which were still relatively positive. Seller said that he thought about 2200 fps should providing converging loads. He was vague about whether the loads he sent would provide that velocity. He thought the regulating loads he sent would provide different velocities and I should try those until I found the best results, then order more of that "color" from the loader.

13. I stopped by the H&H gun room and talked to either Pat or Peter (will have to check the business card) about the light line I had noticed against the face. He thought that could indicate a loose gun even without noticable wobble. He was not optimistic that velocity adjustments would solve my group convergence concern with the amount of vertical displacement I described. He also would not recommend 2200 fps in a rifle of that vintage - especially with just 26" barrels. I got virtually the same advice from Simon Clode of Westley Richards via a couple of phone calls later that week.

14. I called Champlin's and described my experience to JJ Perodeau. He was willing to try to check, re-hinge and re-regulate if necessary, and try to complete any necessary work by early November.

15. When I got back to Houston about two weeks later, I sent the rifle to Champlin's and JJ was able to examine it about a week later. He described it as "loose as a goose" and with symptems he would associate with monometal solids and/or excessive pressures. I relayed that information to seller.

16. I was able to get one more call through to Seller to explain the current situation and inquire about the custom loading dies not yet sent. Seller seemed a bit agitated and said the dies had to be in his house among items some ladies were inventorying and he would send them promptly.

17. I talked to JJ after the rifle was rehinged and he was preparing moderate starting loads to check the rifle's performance. He called me a couple of days later to explain that the loads would not properly chamber even after cleaning with a standard reamer. He had then cast the chambers and found distorations that made him reluctant to even fire the rifle.

18. I have been unable to get a phone call ansewered by Seller, his secretary has reported him as too busy to take calls and my last couple of e-mails have not been answered. He has still not sent the custom dies. The two e-mail responses I have received seemed to be be crafted more like a lawyer than by the fellow hunter from our inital discussions...

19. I checked with the loader of the "regulating" loads, Safari Arms Ltd. John said he used his own standard dies for the loads and they should all produce about 2150 fps using different powder types/weights.

As I reflect, I've bought about half a dozen other rifles/shotguns from internet offers without a single concern. None quite as expensive, but more in the aggregate. Don't think I'd recommend Seller as a used car (or rifle) source. there's a quite bit more but I'll stop for now.

Any suggestions, other than buyer beware?? And, I don't think I'll consider trying to get up to the 2200 fps velocity that Seller recommended...

Emory

I'd ask him if he'd take it back. Based on the info you provided, my guess is that the seller probably knew what condition was. Since the stated condition varies so much from the actual, I think you're justified in asking for a refund. All that being the case, my guess is that you'll have a hard time getting your money back.

Emory,

I would suggest that you ask this same question on nitroexpress.com. There are many members on that forum that are also here but also many that are not. The double rifle knowledge of the members is pretty vast. Nitroexpress.com is centered around double rifles.

Also, I would listen to JJ. He is one of the better double rifle guys in the US. In my dealings with him I've found him to be very straightforward with zero BS.

I hope things work out for you. I'd suggest next time you have the rifle sent to JJ for an inspection and make the purchase contingent on the outcome of the inspection.

Best,

JPK

Did I miss what the caliber was?
Where did the guy you bought the rifle from live?

I'd just trust what JJ says!

I'd send it back! Probably not an option now, but just my opine.

JPK,

Thanks for the suggestion about nitroexpress.com. I'll figure how to transfer the text without re-keying.

Amen, regarding your suggestion about shipping to to a qualified third party for an independent look. I actually considered having it shipped to Champlin's for an examination but got caught up in my eagerness to get the rifle in-hand prior to leaving for a few weeks - I'm not actually as naive at work!

Rusty,

I'm being vague about the rifle caliber, type and source because I still have hopes of solving this by mutual agreement. After JJ had examined the rifle and determined it to be off the face I asked him to fix it , work up loads, and if necessary re-regulate. I let Seller know that was underway and would be at my cost. Because he had made such an issue of selling only because of a short term cash flow issue, I offered to let him take the rifle back after repairs and take 4-6 months to return my payment. I would have assumed only positive motives on his part and not even required more than an e-mail confirmation from him to have JJ send the rifle straight to Seller after repairs. Again, I'm not that naive at work.

Emory

Yikes, that's a tough one. Seems that if you can't get your money back, either sell it or send it to JJ to get him to fix it and regulate it, and move on.

You should hear my buying used-mule stories!

If you are fixing it up at your own expense for your original price back, why not then keep it if it is now usuable?

Or once it is in saleable and respectable condition sell it on for an increased price?

With bulged chambers, the rifle could be a total loss.

Sounds like you need to assert significant pressure on the seller to take the rifle back.

It don't sound good! I think you may have to make the most of what you have. I hate to hear things like this. Buying a used double is a risky business. It is very easy to get screwed like this. I hope you are able to get this gun to shoot safely...sounds like you have quite a bit of money tied up in it.

Buying used anything is usually an effort to save money or at the very least have raw material for a project gun...

I have bought my share of guns over the net and have not been burned, yet...but this seller was obviously pawning off damaged goods with the hopes the buyer would be sufficiently ignorant and powerless to be any threat...not returning your calls, e-mails, etc. are signs enough.

That double-gun was hammered and advertised as cherry...as has been said: fix it (hope that is possible) and move on...or dump it on another trusting soul. Either way it is a learning experience...don't doubt that this "seller" is now an adversary, handle him accordingly.

I have bought two used doubles. The first was advertised on Guns America. I talked to the seller and ask for references. He gave me the name of a local guy I already new and very much respected. The Searcy rifle came in and was as good as advertised.

The second I bought from the local fellow. I bought a rifle that I really think he had not intended to sell. Is a 9,3x74R with a set of 20 ga. bbls. Has been a peach of a rifle and the best little bird gun I've ever used.

Would I be concerned? Yes.

I'd only invest that kind of money in a new gun from a name vendor or after having a used gun inspected by someone like JJ, Tom Kessel, or Mike Schwandt (the guys who have done good by me in the past).

I have bought rifles off the internet, and never had a problem so far, and hopefully I never will.

Standard procedure on buying a rifle or pistol is a mandatory three day inspection period. (In my thoughts anyway.) During this time, I normally go over the rifle and decide if its worth it. If there is something wrong I will take it to a friend who is machinist/gunsmith, and we can talk about it. If I noticed dirt or gaps I would have sent it back.

Also, Did you pulll the barrels, hang them from a string and rap the barrels with the handle of a screwdriver (something plastic or such) to see if they became unsoldered. That does happen.

Best case scenario is to sent the gun back, but since you already shot it, he could say that you did the damage. Its a tough place to be in.

I guess the question doesn't need to be asked since you found a reputable shop willing to do the work, it must be salvageable. But how much is all that going to cost? And no guarantee on how it will shoot. I would definitely try to get my money back from the guy.

After exhausting all avenues you may be screwed, and vindictive SOB that I am I would then use the power of the net to get my pound of flesh. If the guy is always dealing through is secretary he must think himself of some importance or be a businessman of some sort. HOpefully he makes it right with you, if not then hopefully he looses much more money than you due to being a p*#ck. I hate people that do this.

what brand is the rifle?

Red

A few other insights to how this unfolded... The only time I fired the rifle was the morning after the ammunition arrived. That was with some of the loads that Seller sent for the rifle. He said they were, and they appeared to be, Woodleigh solids and softs. The right and left barrels clearly diverged at fifty yards with no rounds from the two groups overlapping. I did not use a cronograph (mistake!) so I don't know the velocities. If Seller was accurate in claiming 2.5" regulated accuracy, then his using loads probably were been than those he provided to me. There were no noticably hot rounds but I did have two sticky cases that failed to eject and I extracted with my thumb nail. I didn't note which barrel or even if it was the same barrel.

After JJ discerned the chambering problem when he was preparing to start checking loads and then confirmed chamber damage with casting, I asked if the damage was the sort that could have happened while I was doing my shooting. He assured me we were not talking about an event that I would not have noticed - plus, he said extraction would have been with a metal rod and a mallet, not a thumb nail!

Incidentally, after shooting that rifle, I suspect I could apply different hold points with the two barrels, produce about 4" groups, and make most believe the rifle was regulated.

No way on earth I could sell without a clear disclosure now that I suspect a problem that could cause injury to a shooter. Still, it is in better shape than it arrived since JJ re-hinged the action. Seller said he was happy with it - seems to me he should take it back in it's improved state and take my offer to let him pay back on the extended plan I suggested. I asked JJ to hold it until the path forward sorts out.

Emory

Correction to above post. Should read: "...then his using loads probably were hotter than those he provided to me."

Sorry to hear about your misfortune concerning this rifle.

1) Get your money back - including what you had to pay JJ.

2) Let all of us know who this is so that we can be wary of any future dealings with this individual.

3) From now on have the gun sent to JJ, or any reputable DR smith prior to your purchase. Let him tell both of you his take on the piece. That is only fair. I have bought a lot of guns off of the internet and thus far am batting about 50% - but, I have not had to keep any that did not live up to my expectations. I always ask for a 3-day inspection (in writing faxed to my office, signed) prior to closing the deal - this keeps everybody honest - and most folks are BTW.

Lastly, before dealing with anybody, do a "good-guy" inquiry on the Classified page and see what comes of it.

Thus far I have sent back an H & H Royal Modele Deluxe, that was in fact not a "Modele Deluxe", a Fox "FE" special that was supposedly untouched and unfired, both of which were not the case; "Fired and Tired" would be more accurate, and a Winchester 1886 "all original", except for that little re-barrel job and shiny non-original wood.

Pictures and written descriptions are yet another insurance plan for both buyer and seller.


Lastly I just won't do business with anybody that won't be fair and accept the above terms. There's one thing I like more than my guns - the money I use to buy them.

Just a little gun buyer 101,

JW

Emory,

Was the seller in the US or the UK?

Regards,

Pete

Pete,

Seller was/is in the US.

Regards,
Emory

Emory,
How much you want for the rifle and whatever you have to go with it?

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:

I'm afraid, given the run around you have already recieved, if you send the rifle back to the seller, after repairs are done, my guess is,you will be out the rifle, as well as your money!

I think this is a wise prophecy.

quote:

Originally posted by Emory:
Pete,

Seller was/is in the US.

Regards,
Emory

Emory

You are asking for an answer when no one knows what exactly the question is.

If it was off the face but now is on that is good.

You don't know the regulating load but then you haven't really tried to find it either.

Don't shoot someone else's reloads unless you know they are correct. You know the seller is a flake so pull the bullets.

Who made it?

What type of action?

What is the caliber?

What shape is the rifle appearance wise?

What did you pay?

To help you on your next step you need to answer these questions.

You know you can get the chambers sleeved to original specs? You can also get the barreles re regulated.

I don't think anyone in this country should do it and it should be reproofed. Particularly if you expect to get your money back on a resale.

Actually in my mind this is a very simple.

None of the esoteric questions mean anything.

If the chambers are bulged as JJ says the rifle is a total loss. You must get your money back.

This is a show stopper, end of the line, rifle unsafe to shoot. You've got yourself a lemmon.

I know that is the last thing on earth you want to hear but it is the hard cold truth!

The only other option, would be a rebarrel. Either cut the originals down to a mono block and start from there. Or from stratch, that = +$$$$$. Neither one is good as a complete refund. But, from what I have read here, I think you are/have been stuck with it.

Hog Killer

Butch could do a great rebarrel and get the regulation right as well.

Before that, I'd drive over, or fly over and confront him directly. Face to face and get my money back.

Plain and simple.

Jeff

I am not sure you can demand you money back since you fired the rifle, and you have already had work done on it. I agree with Hog Killer that you may be stuck with the gun. Not sure if Butch will make another set of barrels for you or not, I think he is keeping busy building his own rifles. Having said that there are a few other guys with decent reputations around who may provide this service. Once again I hate to hear that you got left hanging.

There appear to be a couple of technically feasible options:

- Rebarrel at ~ $7k and take 9-12 before I can use the rifle.

- Resleeve chambers and barrels for $3.5-4k. That preserves the original appearance which to me is desirable. I like the cost better too...

Either takes 9-12 months and defeats the purpose of the "proven and ready to use rifle", that I went with instead of waiting quite a while for a Searcy in the caliber I wanted.

Regards,
Emory

As much as I hate litigation, where is the person physically located in relation to yourself? what is the possibility of filing a claim against him, what's the limit, 5k? how much do you have in the rifle.

Sounds like the rifle is unsafe, probably be easy to get a judge to rule against a guy that sold you a dangerous $$$$$ rifle that could get somebody hurt. definitely stop paying to have work done on the damn thing till you work on trying to get your money back from the guy.

Get his home phone number and start calling him at home, time for some bloodhound work.

Red

Emory,

Got-dang'it!

Get over there and get your money!

Don't let the SOB take advantage of you!

...OR...

Is there more to this story than we are being told...

...Only the shadow knows...

Jeff

I just re-read these two threads in their entirety. The other one is:Double Trouble Follow-up

I would ask the members of AR to please read them through completely as well, and then decide which of the two principals is an "honorable gentleman."

A sharp observer might also remember that Mac was stridently on Emory's side, then when it became apparent the Judge was involved pulled his posts. You may remember that at one time Mac had a post stating this erasure, but he never explained why. Now even the admission of retraction is removed, and all that is left from Mac is reflexive thrashing. The only evidence of Mac's originla stance is in Nitrox's post where he used the automatic function to quote MacD:

quote:

Originally posted by NitroX:

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:

I'm afraid, given the run around you have already recieved, if you send the rifle back to the seller, after repairs are done, my guess is,you will be out the rifle, as well as your money!

I think this is a wise prophecy.

Revisionism such as Mac's is not unique, but it is telling, and it is a valid reason to use the quote function extensively in case it evolves that you are dealing with a slimy creature instead of a gentleman.

Emory has been Hornswoggled by Da Judge???

Remind me to never buy a double rifle with vegetation between the forearm and barrels: could be a shim of dead grass and leaves to make it seem to fit tighter.

Anyone recommending 2200 fps loads in an antique 450/400 NE, whether 3" or 3-1/4", has probably made other boo-boos too:
... Maybe used an oversize bullet diameter accidentally or even a (gasp!) brass monometal solid
... Maybe got higher than expected pressures and "bulged the chambers" ??? ... sounds like near destructive testing that makes merely being off-face seem trivial.

But whodunnit??? Did Da Judge bulge those barrels or did Emory proof test the rifle with some wild loads???

Anyway, just comments from the peanut gallery ... but more:

One should not play with antique double rifles. Rather, donate them to museums for tax write-offs, or make wall-hangers of them.

One should get a Merkel or a Searcy for hunting.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:

One should not play with antique double rifles. Rather, donate them to museums for tax write-offs, or make wall-hangers of them.

One should get a Merkel or a Searcy for hunting.

Or know how to handload for them .........

quote:

Originally posted by Don_G:

Revisionism such as Mac's is not unique, but it is telling, and it is a valid reason to use the quote function extensively in case it evolves that you are dealing with a slimy creature instead of a gentlemen.

DonG who the F**k do you think you are? IMO, you are a self centered ass hole, who thinks he can simply say anything he wants about anyone, with impunity. I certainly doubt you would say some of the things you write here face to face with those you like to beat down with your keboard. I have never done or said anything to you about anything till your flag waveing crap you printed in one of these strings, while, hipocriticly , doing the same thing yourself. I yeald to your opinion, on the cause of the damage of this rifle and who you "THINK" is at fault, that is your right, but your blatant disrespect in you posts about me, are, not founded, and in my opinion, are completely off the mark. Neither of these men, invloved in this transaction are immune from scrutiny, and regardless of your opinion, YOU don't know any more than the rest of us,about who is at fault. You, my fine friend, are the type one never wants on a jury. You think your opinion is the only one that counts, and are unwilling to see both sides of an issue, or to
re-evaluate when new evidence arrives on the scene, but doggedly stick with your first impression. It seems from my reading of most of your posts, that you value yourself a lot higher tham most others here do, and only are civil to those who share your "CORRECT" opinion!

quote:

Originally posted by NitroX:

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:

One should not play with antique double rifles. Rather, donate them to museums for tax write-offs, or make wall-hangers of them.

One should get a Merkel or a Searcy for hunting.

Or know how to handload for them .........

Of course, if you want to really live life to the fullest, in a grand and extravagant style, you hunt with a museum piece, and load the ammo properly.
And that means keeping even a .404 Jeffery built on a standard M98 antique down to 2125 fps (24" velocity) with 400 grain bullets.

And then there is a scoped .375 Lapua or .423 Lapua bolt action, paired with a modern .470 NE SXS double ... no finer or stouter combo.

BTW,
I do not know who is at fault here, but Emory and Judge G should sort it out with their wallets or boxing gloves.