quote:

Originally posted by Emory:
Jim,

Appreciate you input. No way I could construe information such as you provided as an "attack".

It's helpful to understand what probably happened and when. The initial accuracy sounds fine. Were those rounds fired using a rest of any kind? how about a sling? It would not be surprising to get different results from me firing freehand, though I don't think the difference should be as great as I saw.

Emory

Emory,

The proper way to test a double other than offhand is to use a rest, but no part of the double should touch the rest. The front hand is placed between the rifle and the rest. Properly held, there should be little difference between this method and shooting offhand. Mostly the rifles are fired this way in the regulation process (but usually from a standing bench). Personally I find little difference in a standing bench and a sitting bench accuracy wise, but the recoil is more noticeable from a sitting bench.

Slings should not be used to aid in holding with a double, since they will adversely affect accuracy and POI in most cases.

To answer your other question, yes, the rifle was fired from the bench in the proper manner.

Ask JJ why chamber sleeving wouldn't be an option given his diagnosis. By his own measurements groove diameter should not be a problem, and it sure beats relining the barrels cost wise, and maybe time wise as well .

Good luck,
Jim

quote:

Originally posted by Emory:
Jim,
....

I was surprised to find this thread is still going - sort of like the energizer bunny. If it gets more technical, suspect it could become a good topic for another forum.

Thanks,
Emory

Emory

Check out Used Double Trouble on NitroExpress.com.

Emory,

I see on looking back through the thread again that you stated there was significant bore damage according to JJ. That would account for why he did not offer the chamber sleeving option. I just wanted to clear this up before causing even more confusion in an already puzzling situation.

Jim

Emory,

Did you ever get your dies?

quote:

Originally posted by JBoutfishn:
Emory,

Did you ever get your dies?

He posted this in the Classified forum:

quote:

Originally posted by Emory:
I just received the missing custom dies and 10 Kynoch 450/400 3 1/4 cartridges from Ernest and that completes the order. I think many who followed the earlier threads closely will understand that makes it easier to presume no ill motives associated with the transaction.

If I start any further discussion on the rifle it will likely be in the Gunsmithing section discussing the path forward.

Regards,
Emory

quote:

Originally posted by Charles_Helm:

quote:

Originally posted by JBoutfishn:
Emory,

Did you ever get your dies?

He posted this in the Classified forum:

quote:

Originally posted by Emory:
I just received the missing custom dies and 10 Kynoch 450/400 3 1/4 cartridges from Ernest and that completes the order. I think many who followed the earlier threads closely will understand that makes it easier to presume no ill motives associated with the transaction.

If I start any further discussion on the rifle it will likely be in the Gunsmithing section discussing the path forward.

Regards,
Emory

Good

quote:

Originally posted by Jeff Wemmer:
I vote to close this thread!

Any seconds?

Lastly: Lesson Learned - Always make sure to have a gun inspected by a third party before closing the deal.
Jeff

Normal procedure in the gun trade is to allow a 3 day inspection but not test firing, for exactly the reasons obvious in this thread. For a bolt action, normally any problems can be detected by inspection (headspace, faulty trigger, and pitting being the main ones). However, double rifles are the exception to this normal practice because of regulation issues. Here we go one of two ways: either, the seller agrees to pay for reregulation if the gun won't shoot a decent group as mutually defined; or the seller agrees to have a competent (in the double gun sense) third party (I use Ken Owen) shoot the rifle and otherwise inspect it, at the buyer's cost, before the deal is done. That's how we do it. And finally, any firearm sold via our websites is an ESCROW SALE....we don't release the funds to the seller until the buyer says OK, or until the inspection period has lapsed with no commment from the buyer. (If the rifle belongs to us, we follow the same rules).

I can't take a position as to who is right in this case as it's not possible to tell from the thread and it may never be possible without some smoking gun evidence such as a third party who will attest to the condition of the gun before it was sold. Or actual diagrams, witnessed, as to how it shot while the seller owned it. I will say that if the rifle groups as described, no amount of load development will fix it, it needs to be reregulated for sure. How it got that way is hard to say...but if the ribs and wedges are still sound, it's fair to conclude that it was off all along. As to the bulged chambers, it's possible that if a load is warm at low temps, it might be very hot at higher temps such as those often experienced in Africa. So it could have been bulged recently with the same loads it digested all along.

Regarding the fixes, it may also be possible to recut the chambers and rebore the rifle to a larger caliber (450 3 1/4" for example) for less money than sleeving, but the gun will need to be reproofed and reregulated if this is done. To my knowledge, in the USA only LaBounty (and I think he's no longer around) and Ken Owen have the ability and tooling to do this.

What I will say for sure is that the buyer was naive in the extreme in this case. He needs to sue or get over it as it's clear the seller is not going to bend in a public forum (he can't because if he does, he is toast).

And I doubt anyone who has read this will buy a rifle from this seller (or any other party) in future without following the prudent course of action (ESCROW PLUS INSPECTION INCLUDING TEST FIRING BY AN EXPERT).

For that reason alone, this has been a useful thread.

Russ,
Actually JJ Perodeau regulates and proff double rifles. He has personally know of a 55 cord 450/400 that was re-regulated to 60 cord.

I am referring to reboring/rechambering/rerifling, not just regulation. You can't do this on a regular boring machine because the bores in a double are offset and a rather special setup is required for this. It's done in England quite a bit where the original bores are badly pitted. But obviously, you can't go from a 375 to a 577...you need to leave some meat in the bbls.

There are quite a few folks who will do reregulation in the USA. Rigby (CA) for example. Beinke in Oregon. I am not sure whether Keith Kearcher does it but he is probably capable of doing so.

quote:

Originally posted by Rusty:
Russ,
Actually JJ Perodeau regulates and proff double rifles. He has personally know of a 55 cord 450/400 that was re-regulated to 60 cord.

rusty

How does JJ proof rifles? Does he stamp something to show he did it and at what pressure?

Good question Mickey, I'll ask him.

After searching Champlin's site, I did not find where he rebores or reproofs. My mistake.