how can that guy be proud or excited with that?

That is the reality of canned lion hunting - there can be no justification for it in any way manner or form.

Now perhaps people will understand why posters such as myself, Shakari, Bwanamich and a few others feel that there should be zero tolerance to this s--t.

No platitudes about business/saving wild lions/keeping the species going can possibly have any weight.

The practice, and anything close to it, should be 100% condemned by all hunters - zero tolerance.

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:
Shakari - The more I read your posts, and the more I see crap like that video, the more I tend to agree with you. I have never been opposed to High-Fence lion hunting, but never cared to do it myself. But man, if done in that sort of manner, I could be inclined to change my mind!!

The biggest problem with high fenced lion hunting is that all the while it continues, the unscrupulous operators will always continue to offer this kind of BS...... and the unscrupulous trophy collectors and also the dumbarses will continue to buy it.

Better to ban the entire practice completely in SA at least and possibly also further afield and then have any true PAC work to be done solely by game dept staff.

I appreciate some might see that as a backward step for hunters rights but I don't. I believe that if we don't police ourselves, some anti hunting do-gooder will do it for us and then it won't be just dodgy lion shooting that goes but also true sport hunting.

quote:

Originally posted by 505 gibbs:
If you allow high fence lion hunting how would you stop this "manner" of high fence lion hunting?

All the while high fenced lion hunting continues, you'll never stamp this kind of thing out.

quote:

Originally posted by JTHunt:

Now perhaps people will understand why posters such as myself, Shakari, Bwanamich and a few others feel that there should be zero tolerance to this s--t.

No platitudes about business/saving wild lions/keeping the species going can possibly have any weight.

The practice, and anything close to it, should be 100% condemned by all hunters - zero tolerance.

Absolutely spot on!

Here is another question, if captive lion hunting was banned, would that be a step towards banning lion hunting entirely? I guess my point is (as with many things in life) you have to watch what you wish for as it just may be granted.

As I see it, you'd only have to ban lion shooting in fenced areas and lion breeding.

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:
As I see it, you'd only have to ban lion shooting in fenced areas and lion breeding.

And what happens to all the lions that are already bred?

Saeed,

That's a good question.

The reality is they're no good for anything. They can't be released and they were bred to be killed.

Therefore as regrettable as it is, I'd say the breeders can put them down at their own expense or donate them to zoos.

Trouble is this is a big can of worms for the hunting industry in RSA.

If its acknowledged that canned lion hunting is unethical, what about 90% of other types of hunting in RSA that takes place behind a high fence?

Why is it unethical to shoot a lion in a 5000 acre enclosure, but not Kudu, even when Kudu are likely stocked at a much higher density??

People like RAS Safari's who conduct hunts as in the video shown here, are endangering the whole hunting industry by their actions, as are the clients that support them..

In trying to think of how to improve the sitiuation with out resorting to a "hunting ban" of any sort, I see two possible courses of action

1) That the lions shot in this manner not be permitted in any of the record books. To assist the likes of SCI determining this, any record submitted from RSA would need to endorsed by a suitable Government Dept / Official as free roaming/pac ect.

2) The government of RSA to prohibit the export of any lion trophy that was not taken in the appropriate manner. This should easily be determined through licensing ect.

If the chestbeaters who shoot these canned lion can;t get their name in the record books and can't bring back their "trophy", I suspect the demand for canned lions will dwindle naturally..

Pete,

The two things are totally different buddy.

The big difference between lion and the plains game species etc that you metion is that the lion is bred and has spent it's life in a pen and is transported (usually drugged) to a relatively small area that he doesn't know at all. He could well still be drugged and is in a completely alien environment. He is then usually shot within a few hours or at most a day or two.

Whereas the plains game animals have spent a long period, usually all or most of their lives in a very large fenced area and is familiar with things like water sources and escape routes.

You'd be suprised quite how many people think they've shot a wild lion where in fact they've been conned into something entirely different...... and I'm not just talking in South Africa either.

These might help:

http://www.shakariconnection.c...-and-wild-lions.html

http://www.shakariconnection.c...canned-shooting.html

FWIW, most record books either don't accept SA and sometimes other lions and others list them in a separate catagory...... but that doesn't stop people wanting them for their offices etc.

I believe the only way to stop this kind of thing happening is to totally ban shooting lions behind wire and totally ban keeping lions as pets or breeding them. - and if that's the cost of stamping this disgusting practice out completely, that's fine by me.

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:
Pete,

The two things are totally different buddy.

The big difference between lion and the plains game species etc that you metion is that the lion is bred and has spent it's life in a pen and is transported (usually drugged) to a relatively small area that he doesn't know at all. He could well still be drugged and is in a completely alien environment. He is then usually shot within a few hours or at most a day or two.

Whereas the plains game animals have spent a long period, usually all or most of their lives in a very large fenced area and is familiar with things like water sources and escape routes.

You'd be suprised quite how many people think they've shot a wild lion where in fact they've been conned into something entirely different...... and I'm not just talking in South Africa either.

These might help:

http://www.shakariconnection.c...-and-wild-lions.html

http://www.shakariconnection.c...canned-shooting.html

Steve,

We know thats broadly the case, but once hunters start branding one type of high fenced hunting unethical, it gives the anti's ammuntion to use against us all. Joe Public doesn't particularly know or care about the difference, and sadly will probably be swayed more by emotional arguments than those based on logic.

Two things to remember about canned lion hunts is that it is sustainable, and from an animal welfare perspective, there's little difference between the death of a lion in a 500 acre pen as one that is free roaming; both end up being shot.

As as hunters we oppose it on ethical grounds ie it goes against all the principles of fair chase ect. But anti hunters oppose all hunting on ethical grounds...true they are different grounds, but they are still based on arbitary ethics...

Far better to deal with canned lion hunting by removing the demand; if theres no demand the industry will fade away on its own..

Pete,

It's like drugs..... they'll always be a demand and they'll always be people willing to buy and sell. In this case there's also the issue of the unscrupulous selling a dodgy lion as a wild lion to some naive sucker.

To say nothing of the example being discussed here..... how can that be anything other than disgustingly unethical and all the while that sort of thing goes on, it can be used as a weapon against us. Better we police ourselves and stamp that kind of BS out voluntarily than someone does it for us.

It's not high fence hunting that needs policing, it's lion breeding, canned lion shooting and unethical lion related practices than need policing.

Pete E

You are part of the problem, not the solution.

How did trying to remove the demand for illicit drugs work-out; last I looked, not so well.

As long as excuses are made for the people capitalizing on the profits in the canned lion hunts; there will be canned lion hunts.

Put the breeders and buyers out of business. Zero-tolerance. End it.

"...once hunters start branding one type of high fenced hunting unethical, it gives the antis ammunition to use against us all." You have got to be kidding. If anyone is near you at the moment, tell them to slam you in the mouth and yell, "snap out of it".

What do you think canned lion hunts continue to provide the Anti-s? If hunters don't police their own sport, it's over; maybe not today, maybe not tomorrow, but sooner than we would all like.

Simple!
Best way of stopping the canned shooting is to take the licenses away for life from all PH’s and Outfitters involved!
No client can hunt by law without a licensed PH!

Cheers

quote:

Originally posted by 505 gibbs:
Here is another question, if captive lion hunting was banned, would that be a step towards banning lion hunting entirely? I guess my point is (as with many things in life) you have to watch what you wish for as it just may be granted.

Guys, this is what worries me most!! I don't have the answer, but I don't want to see it back fire in our face wither.

Perhaps the answer is not ban lion shooting but instead to totally ban shooting lions behind wire and totally ban keeping lions as pets or breeding them.

Therefore shooting/hunting lion in unfenced areas is perfectly legal...... the fact that with very few exceptions indeed, keeping lions in an unfenced area in SA is illegal would be neither here nor there.

Another big worry to us should be that the practice is spreading. It wasn't long ago that Ganyana posted a story where a hunter in zim wandered round to the skinning shed to look at the lion trophy he'd just shot and got chatting to a guy who was fixing a damaged trailer and the guy told the client he'd dropped a doped lion off just a few hours ago.

There's also a great deal of evidence that similar things have happened and continue to happen in other African countries as well.

The more the kind of BS spreads, the harder it'll be to stamp out and the bigger a risk it becomes to ALL ethical African hunting.

I guarantee you as soon as the "canned" lion hunting is stopped, the antis will start on ALL fenced hunting.

Where will the South African hunting industry be then?

Folks,

I'm with Arron on this on. Once you outright ban any type of hunting does it not open the door to other closures? Peter had a great point in that very few people see any difference between shooting a lion or a kudu behind a fence. It matters little that there really is a big difference. Along those same lines does it not follow suit if lion hunting could be banned in fenced areas in RSA why could it not be banned in Zim on the huge conservancies where lions and other game live as free and natural lives as they would anywhere? The fence is the common denominator and it doesn't take much imagination to see the antis making the shooting of a drugged lion in a paddock sound the same as shooting a kudu on 850,000 acres.

I think we need to be very careful in our outright condemnation of any type of "hunting" as it may open a very smelly can of worms we want to keep closed.

Mark

quote:

Originally posted by reddy375:
It's simply disgusting.......

I feel there is a whole generation of shooters (I can't call them hunters) that think killing an animal to bringing back what they think is a trophy animal is hunting. It's all about the size, never mind whether it was tame, bred, tied to a tree, fed hormones or hung from it's toes.

These people either have never been taught or do not care about the ethics or the traditions of hunting. All they care about is that they want a bigger animal than anyone else or so that their name can be in the record book.

Reddy, its not a "generational" thing.


Maybe you just chose the wrong word......

Sorry but I don't now your age, but from your post I would guess that you are older than the hunter in the video. So I surmise that you are pointing the finger at us younger hunters.

I am about the same age as the lion "hunter" in the video, so I am part of the generation of hunters that you say, "that think killing an animal to bringing back what they think is a trophy animal is hunting. It's all about the size, never mind whether it was tame, bred, tied to a tree, fed hormones or hung from it's toes."

Whose generation started SCI and the "look at me" records books? Whose generation is known for millionaire hunters trying to become famous by getting their names in print for taking the biggest trophies, sometimes going to such lengths as switching tags at the taxidermist, lying about the location where trophy was taken, altering trophies, faking pictures, etc.?

Which generation do Elgin Gates, C.J. McElroy, Herb Klein and David Miller belong to?

I have shot a fair amount of game(started hunting Africa at 25. On my own dime) and a few of my trophies would make Rowland Ward and most would make SCI. I have never entered a single one and I can't imagine a scenario in which I ever would. I don't even care to measure my stuff. The only reason I know any of my measurements is because PHs either told me or listed the measurements on the paperwork. I could care less about size and I would not trade my trophies for larger examples because the only worth they have to me is in the memories of the hunts it took to get them.

So, please remind me again, whose generation thinks that: "killing an animal to bringing back what they think is a trophy animal is hunting. It's all about the size, never mind whether it was tame, bred, tied to a tree, fed hormones or hung from it's toes. These people either have never been taught or do not care about the ethics or the traditions of hunting. All they care about is that they want a bigger animal than anyone else or so that their name can be in the record book."?

In closing, if you simply misused the word "generation" I apologize.

(edited by JBrown in hope that I don't come off like an a**.)

From my experience it's not about age at all, it's about attitude.

Some want to hunt, some want to hunt hard, some want to hunt comfortably, some want to collect and some seem to want to be told what to collect and when to collect it.

Actually, that might make an interesting separate thread.......

Steve,

That would be interesting. Have at it.

Mark

Already done buddy

http://forums.accuratereloadin...1411043/m/3661073821

Jason,

I think you may have taken offense where none was offered. I know Arjun a little. He is a good guy and a young man.

My interpretation of Arjuns post was that there seems to be a preponderance of people getting into safari hunting that are far more interested in the trophies than the experience. I want big trophies myself but as long as I know I'm hunting where the big ones live I'm not going to have a bum safari because Dianna did not smile upon me. This is quite different from a guy that basically thinks if he throws enough money at a safari he should get x,y and z animls. Afterall he bought them. This guy has missed the boat as far as what safari is about in my mind. My expereince is that these hunters are individuals of a certain mind set not age group.

Mark

I contacted Reddy375 via PM when I made the post. I misread his intent. He was speaking more of a "group" rather than a generation.

Come to find out, our ages are not too different and we share similar ethics.

Jason,

Thanks for clearing the air with me. we are both on the same page and no offence taken. I guess I was wrong in saying generation, it's more about a certain group of people and mindset as Mark pointed out.

Thanks Mark for your comments.

Regards,

Arjun

It may well be that some of us are missing the point. I was, until I thought the matter through.

It's not the damned fences...fencing per se has nothing to do with anything. Africa, not just RSA, has them, often for good reason[s]. What matters is the lion. No wild predator of any kind looks, or acts, like that. Anywhere. Ever.

If it's legal, and you want to do it, be my guest. I don't, and won't.

Please note that my halo has been in the shop under repair for quite some time now.

My wife and I ran into a couple of Spanish hunters in lusaka and wound up sharing a charter the next day on our way to the luagua Valley. One spoke engish very well and the other not at all. The English speaking gentleman was the nicest man to visit with you would ever talk to and we enjoyed the time we spent with him that evening and the next day, but it didn't take long to figure out that he was collecting animals for some hunting award. He wound up causing a lot of problems in his camp because of his lack of respect for his PH[because of the PHs relatively young age] and his lack of desire to put out any physical effort to secure his animal. In this case a sitatunga. Both clients wound up taking really good animals. FWIW I would love to hunt with the "young" PH he had. This was the first and only time I have ever been subjected to this kind of person and I am glad I didn't have to share a camp with him. One more reason to have a camp all to yourself in Africa.

joec

quote:

I guarantee you as soon as the "canned" lion hunting is stopped, the antis will start on ALL fenced hunting.

Why Not !

Seloushunter

quote:

I guarantee you as soon as the "canned" lion hunting is stopped, the antis will start on ALL fenced hunting.

and you can be that it won't stop there. Divide and conquer.

I am willing to be divided from canned lion hunters RIGHT NOW - bring it on. Hunting has been my livelihood for 26 years - I would rather not take another $ than be forced to stand "together" with Hugo Ras because we are both ---"hunters???"

Its bullshit - no more no less - we stand taller by standing apart from that stuff.

quote:

Originally posted by JTHunt:
I am willing to be divided from canned lion hunters RIGHT NOW - bring it on. Hunting has been my livelihood for 26 years - I would rather not take another $ than be forced to stand "together" with Hugo Ras because we are both ---"hunters???"

Its bullshit - no more no less - we stand taller by standing apart from that stuff.

Me too. I'd rather go bankrupt a thousand times over and starve to death than support that kind of unethical BS.

quote:

I am willing to be divided from canned lion hunters RIGHT NOW - bring it on. Hunting has been my livelihood for 26 years - I would rather not take another $ than be forced to stand "together" with Hugo Ras because we are both ---"hunters???

The remark was about "ALL fenced hunting" not canned hunting, and once all hunting is banned you will either not "hunt" or you will be a poacher.

I see absolutely no reason why fair chase hunting in large fenced areas such as are found in SA & parts of Namibia etc shouldn't continue for many years to come........ IF we conduct ourselves in an ethical manner and stamp out the flaky bastards.

If there is a threat to such hunting at all, it's this kind of disgraceful canned shooting. If we don't stamp it out ourselves, then other will do it for us and they won't stop at the dodgy lions.

Steve,

I have no problem working towards ending the type of thing that started this thread. I do react to comments such as "hunting South Africa doesn't count" and banning "ALL fenced hunting". I would rather see the banning of Lion breeding and setting minimum times for them to be free on the property than to have an all out ban on a type of hunting.

Fortunately, for me, the total banning of hunting through incremental bans will probably be after my death, but I mourn for future generations.

Regards,
Charles

This was disgusting. There is no rational of any kind to support this...NONE! It should be stopped, and guys like Ras need to be shamed and drummed out of the business completely. I don't give a tinker's damned if breeders of animals for this kind of abomination go broke. This was like shooting someones pet dog, for Christ sake.

High fence hunting is fine, if done in a fair chase manner on large enough enclosures where the quarry has escape cover and avenues. This is nothing but whoring to a lazy fat-cat with a bow and no balls.

Also, I firmly believe this is in large part generational, spawned by the plethora of cable Shoot'm-Up Bubbah shows that are more kill oriented than Hunt oriented. Kill at any cost!

quote:

Originally posted by CharlesL:
Steve,

I have no problem working towards ending the type of thing that started this thread. I do react to comments such as "hunting South Africa doesn't count" and banning "ALL fenced hunting". I would rather see the banning of Lion breeding and setting minimum times for them to be free on the property than to have an all out ban on a type of hunting.

Fortunately, for me, the total banning of hunting through incremental bans will probably be after my death, but I mourn for future generations.

Regards,
Charles

Charles,

I partly agree with you. I see no reason to ban fair chase hunting in large fenced areas and I agree that all lion breeding should be banned....... but I don't agree with a minimum time for them to be free before being hunted. They can't police the roads or serious crime here. For example, just today the TV claimed less than 16% of serious crime is investigated, let alone solved...... So what chance of checking release dates of individual lions?

The ONLY answer is to ban ALL lion sport hunting and breeding within SA completely with Absolutely no exceptions...... and frankly, I'd also be inclined to extend that hunting ban to elephants as well.

For me...It is ALL about the hunt. Wilderness, wild game, and fair chase hunting. It is a realistic adventure I look for. When I pull the trigger...it is a luxury.

quote:

Originally posted by luv2safari:
This was disgusting. There is no rational of any kind to support this...NONE! It should be stopped, and guys like Ras need to be shamed and drummed out of the business completely. I don't give a tinker's damned if breeders of animals for this kind of abomination go broke. This was like shooting someones pet dog, for Christ sake.

High fence hunting is fine, if done in a fair chase manner on large enough enclosures where the quarry has escape cover and avenues. This is nothing but whoring to a lazy fat-cat with a bow and no balls.

Also, I firmly believe this is in large part generational, spawned by the plethora of cable Shoot'm-Up Bubbah shows that are more kill oriented than Hunt oriented. Kill at any cost!

you mean like Uncle Ted's "whack 'em and stack 'em" tv melodrama?

Off the bat, I'll add my voice to the choir. Stuff like this is a ridiculous farce of hunting that only exists to serve the ignorant (willfully and otherwise).

We should be realistic though, with any type of legal ban of this practice, 3 things are likely to occur:
1. The practice will continue as long as the demand is there.
2. When the "war" against illegal lion hunting escalates, govts will expect the legal hunting industry to fund it through additional fees. Much like the war on drugs, the longer it continues, the less incentive the govts will have to actually win it.
3. The anti hunters will remain anti hunters regardless of what you do. (So, why form a response based on their reaction? It will only dilute your goal.)

So what is the answer? I don't know. But, I do know that the people who frame the argument and determine the terminology are likely to win.

I also know that since the dawn of time, hunting has been about emulation. Young hunters imitated their fathers because they could see the fruits of their labors and the admiration they received in so doing.

Today, the impulse is no different. The reason people hunt in this bastardized fashion is because they are still receiving the internal and external gratification from the kill, even a grossly unethical one. Why would someone post something on Youtube that would make themselves look bad? Easy. They wouldn't. The outfitter is advertising and the client looks happy.

Ergo, there is not enough shame attached to that video and that type of hunting BY THE HUNTING COMMUNITY to make it stop.

Someone mentioned "policing our own". That is exactly so. No doubt that outfitters like the one in the video are in the minority. So, why would the majority forfeit it's power to a govt agency?
Instead, ethical outfitters can force the minority to EMULATE them by:
1. making the definitions of ethical hunting for their species known to every client.
2. advertise those definitions endlessly so they become synonymous with "good hunter".
3. drop clients who request unethical hunts (it'll be cheaper than govt enforcement)
4. force your professional associations to support you and not the minority.
5. expose unethical outfitters (strictly adhering to your definitions) by CALLING THEM OUT BY NAME. Do not cower or let them hide amongst you.
5. brand your product. Make ethical hunting distinct from all other forms in such a way that even the ignorant will look for your "trademark" when choosing an outfitter. Enlist the top outfitters first and let it trickle down through the market.

That is not a complete or easy answer and there are many outfitters already doing parts of it. But, because the video is still up, we know that we are not doing enough to shame these folks back under the rock they crawled out of.

Wouldn't be interesting if, someday, when that client is showing off his "trophy", that a non-hunting guest at his home shamed him by asking "Was this lion hunted ethically?" Even if the guy lies, only the most inflated narcissist could go back to the same outfitter.

OK. Is this "canned"?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=juGDmRfyuFM

Thanks,
Ski