well, President Bush is going to call for a UN arms embargo against Zimbabwe. Even though both South Africa and China, which both sit on the Security Council, will likely block such an effort, what will happen if the US decides to initiate such an embargo unilaterally applying only to US citizens( a la our travel ban to Cuba). If it applies to small arms, hunting in Zim will be over. I don't think there are enough non US hunters going there to keep the safari industry afloat. Any thoughts on this issue?

No AMERICANS hunting in ZIM will be horrible for their safari operators.

What will happen in case of such an embargo is that, just like the Brits, Americans will have to list Johannesburg as their destination, then book separate connecting flights to Harare.

Only a Cuba-like travel ban would have a serious effect on travel to Zim by US hunters.

Mrlexma,

Yeah you could go through Joberg and end up in Zimbabwe to hunt, but you'd NEVER get your trophies back to the US. So in affect it would end hunting for Americans. Unless you didn't mind spending a bunch of money to break the law and not have a single trophy for you effort!

Brett

quote:

Originally posted by Brett Adam Barringer:
Mrlexma,

Yeah you could go through Joberg and end up in Zimbabwe to hunt, but you'd NEVER get your trophies back to the US. So in affect it would end hunting for Americans. Unless you didn't mind spending a bunch of money to break the law and not have a single trophy for you effort!

Brett

Great Point. If a Cuba style travel ban is implemented, which I think is going to happen soon, Zimbabwe is no longer going to be a hunting destination.

Wrong, Brett, except, as I said, in case of a travel ban. An arms embargo alone would have no effect on trophy importation rights or importation of any other item.

mrlexma

Sorry that’s what I meant. I was talking about a travel ban not just an arms embargo.



I would really hate to see a travel ban in Zimbabwe for the sake of the many hard working men and women in the safari industry that make Zimbabwe their home, but enough is enough. Mugabe has to go! It infuriates me that the international community has let the situation in Zimbabwe go this long! If I go somewhere and see someone behaving inappropriately or mistreating someone else I damn well say something and consciences be damned! I'm tired of seeing us turn the other cheek on this guy just because the people are nice or the hunting is cheap! Let's stand up for what's morally right! I don’t care who you hunt with the fact of the matter is that Zimbabwe is SO corrupt that a portion of any money you spend in Zimbabwe ends up in Mugabe’s pocket. That money helps him pay thugs to beat people with the courage to stand up to him and to me that’s wrong! I’m sure I’ll take heat for this, but at some point good men must stand on solid ground against those who would take the rights and lives of our fellow men!

Brett

Brett, if only Zim had oil...it would be a whole different story. The world does not care about poor and beaten people...unless there is something in it for them. Africa is full of this "proof".

my concern with an arms embargo would be when you re-entered the US with a firearm and a Zimbabwe entry and exit stamp on your passport. no matter what you arranged with 2 separate airline tickets, any reasonably alert Customs and Immigration officer has got reasonable suspicion that you have broken the law. granted you could say that you hunted in RSA and just visited Zim but you would play hell trying to prove it.. hopefully it will not come to such a sad state of affairs but it is something to think about when making plans for future hunts. one thing for sure- the US intends to rachet up the pressure on uncle Bob!!

Don't ask me how I know this, but when Americans fly to Cuba via Mexico City, the Cuban immigration people stamp your passport on a loose piece of paper and you insert it inside. When you leave, you throw it away. Voila! You just had a nice vacation to Mexico (as far as U.S. Customs is concerned).

quote:

Originally posted by GAHUNTER:
Don't ask me how I know this, but when Americans fly to Cuba via Mexico City, the Cuban immigration people stamp your passport on a loose piece of paper and you insert it inside. When you leave, you throw it away. Voila! You just had a nice vacation to Mexico (as far as U.S. Customs is concerned).

Getting guns into Mexico is a real pain in the ass, and costly as well, so Mexico is out for hunters travel with guns!

quote:

Originally posted by Woodrow S:
Brett, if only Zim had oil...it would be a whole different story. The world does not care about poor and beaten people...unless there is something in it for them. Africa is full of this "proof".

When Rhodesia was the bread-basket of Africa, Carter "cared enough" to force the whites out of power. The Chinese care plenty, they're just smart enough to get theirs and leave the uncureable alone.

quote:

Originally posted by Woodrow S:
Brett, if only Zim had oil...it would be a whole different story. The world does not care about poor and beaten people...unless there is something in it for them. Africa is full of this "proof".

You watch too much CNN. There are plenty of resources in Africa including Zim that are worth lots to the rest of the world. There are plenty of African countries with diamonds and gold that are war zones that we don't go into either.

Gahunter:

What you describe about going to Mexico City and then on to Cuba -in violation of US law - has been known for decades. What may not be so well known is that the US has been tracking these evasions -also for decades. Whenever Uncle Sam decides to nail someone -it happens. The fact that most are not touched does not mean that Uncle Sam is ignorant of who the violators are. People who do it are furnishing a source of hard currency to a truly brutal dictatorship.

BTW, mrlexma's point about new sanctions not affecting trophy imports - Don't bet on it. There already is an existing US sanction against high ranking members of the Mugabe cabal so called government to prevent them from profiting economically from any dealings with the US. I'm sure that Uncle Sam already knows that leases may be under control of Mugabe henchmen -and it may be decided that this is one more area in which to tighten up sanctions - by taking a srict interpretation of whether the ultimate economic benefit is to a Mugabe henchman -and therefore subject to sanction. I'm afraid it's a bad time all around - for US hunters and for innocent people like most of the people of Zimbabwe. But, what else is there to do to get rid of this truly bad man? I suppose dropping the 82nd Airborne in on him for a breakfast chat one morning would be a quicker way -but this American is not eager to spend even one life of our military people -not even to get rid of Mugabe. So we do it the hard way.

I believe that the arms embargo being discussed by the Bush administration is about military weapons not hunting rifles.

quote:

Originally posted by Use Enough Gun:
I believe that the arms embargo being discussed by the Bush administration is about military weapons not hunting rifles.

That's what we thought about the EU embargo too.

Tourism hopes on Russia

By Augustine Moyo
June 29, 2008

ZIMBABWE?S tourism industry is now pinning its hopes for international tourist arrivals on the Russian market, which is regarded as risk aversive and the highest spending tourists in the world, ZTA chairman and African Sun chief executive Mr Shingi Munyeza has said.

ZIMBABWE?S tourism industry is now pinning its hopes for international tourist arrivals on the Russian market, which is regarded as risk aversive and the highest spending tourists in the world, ZTA chairman and African Sun chief executive Mr Shingi Munyeza has said.

"Russians are generally the highest spenders in the world and we would want to tap into their market. They are also risk aversive.

"As we continue to tap into new markets, Russia remains a market in which we pins our hopes for international arrivals," said Mr Munyeza.

The Zimbabwe Tourism Authority (ZTA) recently signed an agreement with a Russian Tour Operator, Ultra Travel, to officially package and market Zimbabwe in Russia and the Eastern bloc.

Zimbabwe expects to receive 50 000 tourists from Russia by 2009, contributing at least US$110 million annually.

However, Russians who are fast developing a keen interest on Africa as a tourist destination, are not dented by negative publicity and travel warnings.

According to the Federal Tourism Agency of Russia, the Russian market of outbound travellers rose to nearly 15 million in 2007, growing by nearly 25 percent compared to 2005.

At the same time, the World Tourism Organisation (WTO) forecasts that Russia will become the tenth biggest country of origin of outbound travels by the year 2020

The ZTA also participated at Russia?s major tourism exhibitions, the In Tour Market and MIIT Travel and Tourism exhibitions from March 15 to 22 this year.

Recently, Grigoriy Antyufeev, chairperson of the committee on leisure and tourism of the Moscow City Council, was quoted applauding Zimbabwe as being one of the only few African countries that have shown interest in participating in the international tourism exhibitions held annually in Moscow.

Kenya, Tanzania, Uganda, Ethiopia, South Africa, Namibia and Senegal have also been mentioned alongside Zimbabwe as having shown ken interest in participating in Russian international tourism exhibitions.

Russia is an important emerging tourism market for Zimbabwe against the backdrop of its growing economy and increasing levels of disposable income.

Russian economic growth hit a six-year high of 7,9 percent year on year in the first quarter of this year, propelled by strong growth in construction, manufacturing, trade and oil.

Arms Embargo?? I'm sitting here shaking my head. From what I've seen on TV, the favorite Zimbabwe weapons of choice, and that goes for other African countries as well, are sticks, stones and for the more sophisticated , machetes, with a few tires thrown in, for good measure. Just more useless rhetoric.
Africa is a writeoff. For all the aid we have poured into that continent, it's way worse off than at the time all those countries were clamouring for independence, blaming their backwardness on Colonialism. You can't help someone, who is not willing to help themselves . Why should we of the West step in and try to solve this problem, when all the other African nations, figure it's business as usual and they can't be bothered. Mankind may have originated in Africa, but the pople left behind, haven't evolved very far.
Grizz

quote:

Originally posted by Woodrow S:
Brett, if only Zim had oil...it would be a whole different story. The world does not care about poor and beaten people...unless there is something in it for them. Africa is full of this "proof".

Rwanda, Sierra Leone, Liberia, and Darfur immediately come to mind.

quote:

Originally posted by Grizzly Adams:
Arms Embargo?? I'm sitting here shaking my head. From what I've seen on TV, the favorite Zimbabwe weapons of choice, and that goes for other African countries as well, are sticks, stones and for the more sophisticated , machetes, with a few tires thrown in, for good measure. Just more useless rhetoric.
Africa is a writeoff. For all the aid we have poured into that continent, it's way worse off than at the time all those countries were clamouring for independence, blaming their backwardness on Colonialism. You can't help someone, who is not willing to help themselves . Why should we of the West step in and try to solve this problem, when all the other African nations, figure it's business as usual and they can't be bothered. Mankind may have originated in Africa, but the pople left behind, haven't evolved very far.
Grizz

For years, my company airlifted thousands of tons of food relief to several African countries. We had several aircraft shot up and one blown up by an anti-tank mine planted in the runway by people we were trying to help. We had crew members seriously injured and mistreated and denied medical care. Africa broke my heart, because most victims are totally helpless in the chaos generated by tribalism and "leaders" greed.

I gave up and only went back to hunt, well aware that a few bucks here and there to the camp staff and some used clothing and shoes were the only thing I could really do for Africa.

You are correct. Africa, in general, is a write off. Unless there is oil and mineral wealth to be exploited the West could care less. Much of the supplies we brought in were stolen and sold in markets. I saw this.

Hunting there, I don't have to confront the grief that I encountered in the war zones we once frequented.

The lack of leadership and tribalism seem to the two problems that cannot be overcome.

So I go and hunt and leave the worrying to the younger generations. I have a unique love/hate relationship with the place, but I won't hunt Zimbabwe for some of the reasons mentioned, and I have caught flack for that. I only have one trip left in me, anyway.

I can pray for Africa, for all the good that does, but the misery I have seen there has scarred me permanently and I'll never get over it.

There are some good people doing good things for the bush Africans at no small risk to their health and in some cases, their lives. These are the most admirable people I have ever met. Among them are Medicines sans Frontiers. Those people are wonderful and they help average people, often at great personal risk. If you want to help regular Africans, donate to MSF.

From what I read this will be more than an arms embargo.
The list of who Americans can and cannot do business in Zim with will not matter anymore. It will be a total block on doing business with the govenrnment of Zim which would stop Americans doing bussiness in Zim period.

Bush orders sanctions against 'illegitimate' Zimbabwe govt

"The current US sanctions against Zimbabwe are targeted at regime officials, including Mugabe, and Bush directed officials Saturday to build on the current list of more than 170 people and entities.

For the first time, sanctions could also be added against the government of Zimbabwe as an entity, White House spokeswoman Emily Lawrimore told AFP."

Hunting in Zimbabwe is history.

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:

quote:

Originally posted by GAHUNTER:
Don't ask me how I know this, but when Americans fly to Cuba via Mexico City, the Cuban immigration people stamp your passport on a loose piece of paper and you insert it inside. When you leave, you throw it away. Voila! You just had a nice vacation to Mexico (as far as U.S. Customs is concerned).

Getting guns into Mexico is a real pain in the ass, and costly as well, so Mexico is out for hunters travel with guns!

Not so. Mexico has a thriving mule deer hunting industry. There's no problem getting hunting rifles into Mexico.

quote:

Originally posted by GAHUNTER:
Don't ask me how I know this, but when Americans fly to Cuba via Mexico City, the Cuban immigration people stamp your passport on a loose piece of paper and you insert it inside. When you leave, you throw it away. Voila! You just had a nice vacation to Mexico (as far as U.S. Customs is concerned).

This is the same way it was handled when I was stationed at the embassy in Tananarive in the late 70's and South Africa was our emergency evacuation point. The then apartheid government of RSA issued us a visa on a totally separate sheet of paper....nothing appeared in our passport. Kind of ironic that the US government was trying to limit contacts with the RSA, but at the same time had no problem sending us there in case of emergency elsewhere.

What GAHunter is getting at, is correct. You fly to Johannesburg, then buy a separate ticket to Zimbabwe from there. They stamp the paper in Zimbabwe, you return from there with an unstamped passport, and you return to the U. S. from Johannesburg. (I had quite a few American friends visit Havana from Venezuela. You can count on the fact, like the Cubans, the Zimbabweans will still want your dollars and find a way to help you bring them to them.)

Personally I suspect you would have a fairly decent chance of getting your trophies also; slowly, expensively, and with verification they came from South Africa.

Personally I probably won't care unless this fiasco develops in the next 60 days.

....And as long as you don't end up in jail trying to do the aforementioned (in either Zimbabwe, RSA, or USA) then all will be well! Or I can hunt somewhere else and not break the law or support a ruthless dictator! My two cents.

Brett

quote:

Originally posted by Kensco:
Personally I suspect you would have a fairly decent chance of getting your trophies also; slowly, expensively, and with verification they came from South Africa.

I wouldn't bet on this prospect. I think there are a couple of guys, including a PH, in jail here for doing just the opposite [RSA-Zim].

And, like the Cuba visitors, do you REALLY think the US Gov't. would not know that you had gone there? Scanned passports, reservations computers, airlines sharing records - if they want to catch someone, I'm certain they will be able to.

I certainly hope it does not come to require these gyrations to hunt in Zim. I'd like to return there one day, but I'd rather have the US Embassy on my side than working against me.

quote:

Originally posted by Kensco:
What GAHunter is getting at, is correct. You fly to Johannesburg, then buy a separate ticket to Zimbabwe from there. They stamp the paper in Zimbabwe, you return from there with an unstamped passport, and you return to the U. S. from Johannesburg. (I had quite a few American friends visit Havana from Venezuela. You can count on the fact, like the Cubans, the Zimbabweans will still want your dollars and find a way to help you bring them to them.)

Only you can decide whether or not it's worth the risk to try it. Yes, americans have been going to Cuba for a long time and yes, the government tends to ignore it with the exception of Bush's crackdown a few years ago. They ignored it mainly because they deemed it not worth prosecuting, not because they weren't aware. Flight manifests are easy to get, just cross check the names on the mexico/canada to cuba flights vs. people who've flown into mexico or canada in the last couple of days from the U.S. and it's pretty easy to figure out who's going to cuba. Zimbabwe will be no different, they'll figure out you've been there if they want to. The difference between those who go to Zimbabwe and those who go to Cuba is that those going on safari tend to be wealthy and sometimes well known, in other words they're those that make juicy targets for a young federal prosecutor who'd like to make a name for a high profile prosecution like the Martha Stewart bullshit. Those going to cuba tend to be young liberal neo-socialist potheads who think it'd be cool to lay on the beach in a forbidden country and soak up the "revolution". No federal prosecutor wants to mess with them because what's the point of sticking one more pothead in jail?

I suppose hunting prices would go up in RSA and down in Zim if any travel embargo for american citizens comes into force ?

I wouldn't have thought so. RSA is mainly a PG hunting destination and Zim is mainly a DG destination. So it's mainly different markets and my guess is that for the most part at least, the only price increases you'll see in SA or anywhere else for that matter will be fuel price related. The same could probably be said of everywhere else in the world as well........

My guess is that that some hunters would probably substitute their Zim DG hunts for PG hunts in RSA etc and some would opt to pay the higher prices of hunting in Tanzania etc.

Assuming that it doesn't really kick off up there with some kind of military intervention, my guess is that in reality, some and possibly many hunters will still find a way to hunt there.