We have known Bruce and Nettie Rogers for 30 years, our girls went to school with their children and played in many tennis touraments together. They are not even farmers, they lived on a small holding just outside Chegutu on the Kadoma road.

----- Original Message -----

From: lilford

This was sent to me by some friends I hunted with several years ago in Namibia, and included some photos that graphically showed that they took a severe beating. They are good friends and I have no reason to assume it isn't exactly as they have stated in the letter.



The ZIMBABWE Situation

BRUCE AND NETTIE ROGERS.

Good friends and tennis colleagues of mine for many years.





Horror in Zimbabwe
The Zimbabwean



Friday, 09 May 2008 13:13



STATEMENT MADE BY WILLIAM BRUCE ROGERS AND ANNETTE MARY ROGERS

On the day of the 6th May, 2008 at approximately 1300 hours I was visited by three men at our farm, Chigwell Extension Farm.

They told me that I had two minutes to vacate my property otherwise they will send the mob there and the house is not worth sacrificing my life for. Because we would lose our lives. They said they were like hungry lions.

My wife made a report to the Chegutu Police Station about this incident, naming the people involved. At that stage I asked them if they would react to any incident that may occur and they informed my wife that they would speak to the Assistant Inspector. My wife also saw him before making the report and informed him of the visit and he told her to go and make a report at the charge office.

At about 1700 hours on the same day a vehicle – a white Datsun 1800 pickup arrived at the gate with approximately 10-12 people. They demanded that I opened the gate because they wanted to talk to me. I refused and went into the house together with my wife. We locked ourselves into the house. They came to the house and wanted me to go outside to speak to them which I refused to do. They started smashing windows and the front door was smashed open. One of them pointed a single barrel shotgun inside the house at us – we were by then upstairs. He fired a shot directly at us which went just over my head and close to my wife’s’ head. He obviously intended to kill us. After he fired the shot he went out and it went quiet for a while and then we heard three shots coming from the workers housing area. They returned with all the workers and fired another shot whilst outside.

I managed to get through to the Assistant Inspector and the Chegutu Police Station to ask for assistance before there were dead bodies in the house. He said that I must phone him back in half and hour. Throughout all of this my wife was on the phone to numerous friends who were at the Chegutu Police Station trying to get assistance from them with absolutely no result whatsoever. My wife and I also made many phone calls to the Member in Charge on his cell phone and he refused to answer.

By this time it was dark and the power went off so we were left completely in darkness and unable to identify our own employees.

They then used the workers as a shield so that they could all come inside the house and then were downstairs chanting and singing and making threats.

They sent one of the workers upstairs to demand the shotgun from me to take back to them. I refused and this employee stayed upstairs with us. They then grabbed the son of this employee who was downstairs and from what I could gather they threatened to either kill or injure him if he didn’t go back downstairs with the weapon. He went back downstairs without the weapon. After about five minutes they told all the singing workers to go upstairs using them as a shield once more. We tried to identify the workers one by one as they came up the stairs, as my wife was standing at the top of the stairs with a can of mace. After about 15 workers came through, she could not identify a person and used the mace and sprayed them. After this they ran back downstairs and out of the house.

This incensed the thugs who then proceeded to break down the back door and started a building a fire in the downstairs lounge directly below us. As we have a wooden floor upstairs this posed a great threat and we thought we would be burnt alive which is when I said that we would come out and asked if they would let us leave peacefully which they agreed to do. We asked the ring-leader to identify himself. We came downstairs and they demanded the shotgun from me which was loaded and off safety and I refused. They then insisted that I give it to them and I tried to start unloading it and they attacked me. They then grabbed my wife around the throat and she started screaming. While they were trying to take the shotgun from me three shots went off outside the house into the ground as it is a semi-automatic shotgun. They then took the shotgun from me and wrestled me to the ground and started beating me with what I assume was sticks, or pipes and kicking me with their boots. They dragged my wife outside and they were trying to strangle her. At this stage she managed to bite the hand of the man who was grabbing her round the throat. Whereupon he started to beat her. At one time there were at least four men beating and kicking her.

They then tied me up with rope and threw me into the back of their pickup. At this stage my wife was still being beaten. When they had finished beating her, one of them grabbed her by her feet and dragged her over to the vehicle. They then demanded that she stand up and get into the back of the truck which she was unable to do. One of them grabbed her by the hair, pulled her into a standing position and pushed her up against the back of the truck and told her to get in. She did climb in. They searched my wife and found the car-keys in her pocket and demanded she show them what vehicle the keys were for. They couldn’t find the keys to the other truck. They drove my vehicle onto the lawn, parked near the truck where I was tied up. The immobiliser for the vehicle went off. They demanded that my wife show them where the immobiliser switch was situated which she did do. One of them drove off with the vehicle which we never saw again. They still had all the employees on the lawn around a fire that had been lit by the front door and they were still forced to sing.

There were about four or five of them around the vehicle watching the two of us, all the time they were shouting verbal abuse and racist comments and threatening to kill either one or both of us and also stating the manner in which they should kill us. This must have gone on for almost an hour. They were burning my feet with cigarettes and then we saw vehicle lights shining towards us and then my wife was told to get out of the vehicle and was dragged towards the headlights of the vehicle that had arrived. When she got to the vehicle she saw there were four armed policeman from Kadoma Police Station who asked what had happened. She told them briefly what had happened and demanded that they fetch me immediately from the vehicle as she feared for my life. One of the thugs came and untied me and told me to get out of the vehicle and made me walk towards the headlights of the parked vehicle. I noticed that they were armed policeman. The incident was described in more detail to them and they accompanied us into the house to get some warm clothing. Once we were in the house we saw that the gun cabinet had been opened and ransacked and that my weapons were missing. I informed the police that the weapons were missing. They then took us out of the house and told us to get in their vehicle as we were going to Chegutu Police Station to make a report.

We got to Chegutu Police Station and they had to call some superior officer to take a statement and he only arrived as we were leaving to go to Harare to get urgent medical attention. No police personal of any authority seemed to show any interest in taking our statement.

We were attended to by medical staff at the Avenues Clinic where numerous x-rays and CT scans were taken.

My injuries are two cracked vertebrae in my lower back. Fractured cheekbone, fractured nose there was copious bleeding into my sinuses and extensive lacerations and deep-tissue bruising to my face and back and a bite to my right earlobe.

My wife’s injuries are fractured cheekbones, fractures around her orbital socket round her eye, perforated eardrum, cracked ribs and extensive bruising to her face and back and throat.

W.B. ROGERS ………………………………………..

A.M. ROGERS………………………

You got all off my empaty, this is a hopeless situation, No one is safe in Zimbabwe these days.
I hope the family is ok and in safety.

Someone had to stop the mob, Zimbabwe is falling apart in all matters. hopefully someone take action and do something about the situation. It`s terribel that the rest of the world is sitting still and do nothing about it.

Nobody ever does anything about Africa unless the whites can be blamed for the troubles. This has been coming for a long time in Zimbabwe and should surprise no one. It infuriates me.

When the primitives outnumber the civilized by huge odds, and the civilized have developed a distaste for taking of human life, the outcome is ineveitable. This must have been the conclusion that the US and British Govt's reached when originally responding to the crisis in former Rhodesia.

This is very disturbing. There was very little violence of this nature when the majority of the farms were taken. Only one farmer was killed, burned in his own house after refusing to come out and I believe firing shots at the mob. There were many incidents of mobs surrounding houses and keeping up a racket for days, without the occupants being assaulted in this manner. Perhaps things in Zim have become so desperate and lawless that this type of intimidation and violence are now normal?

It raises some questions as well:

If it ran in the Zimbabwean, how come it never made the press outside Zim? Zim was topical at the time (now eclipsed by RSA and the anti-foreigner violence).

Why did the "thugs" seem unafraid of the police? It's almost as if they were waiting for the police to arrive. Why did the police not arrest the mob? Is it legal in Zimbabwe to assault another person, to break and enter, to shoot at someone in their own home...

Why did Mr. Rogers not return fire, as he was armed and was within his legal rights to do so when fired upon...and certainly also when the doors were broken down?

Was there any eviction notice, or was this an "unofficial" act?

"Call back in half an hour"????

Were any of the employees killed or attacked?

What has happened since? Did the Rogers return to their farm? Were the thugs arrested and charged? Who was behind this grab? Perhaps some local official?

Russ,

You have answered your own question about why Mr. Rodgers did not return fire in the third sentence of your posting. Mr. Rodgers is alive today, not dead like the other farmer who returned fire!

May I ask a direct question to all those old enough to have been politically aware in 1965? Who got your support in the 1960's when the USA aided Brittain in selling out Rhodesia to Mugabe?

In good hunting.

Andrew McLaren

There's absolutely no doubt that the UK, US and indeed most of the western world let the Rhodesians down dreadfully in the pre and post independance period - but frankly, that's all well known history and it can't be changed.

What needs to be addressed is what to do about the current situation.......... and the fact seems to be that no-one wants to get involved. Brown made a bit of a fuss, but shut up very quickly as soon as he found his own position at risk in the UK.

SADC apparently don't have the willpower, Even if the UN had the willpower to get involved, it would be very hard for them to do so, simply because the surrounding countries wouldn't allow what would effectively be an invading (colonial?) force to cross their territories beforehand. - The days and the spirit of a French style attack on Entebbe are long gone - the PC world of today simply wouldn't allow it and even if it did, the politicians of today don't have anywhere near the testicular fortitude for it.

So I reckon the cold hard truth is that nothing will change until RM dies. - Once that happens, don't expect anything to change quickly. There's nothing to say that the new 'Government' will be any better than the old one, and even if they are, they'll have a buggered economy, massive unemployment, no food production and a population that are largely sick and unskilled to deal with........ the only hope is that once a new Government is established, the aid agencies will surely pile in there with massive amounts of aid. - That'll feed the population in the short term, but it won't cure any of the long term problems the country has...... that will take many years and many billions of dollars. - Whether people and western Governments will be prepared to do that in the current economy is another matter.

As to the crime/land invasions etc, whether we like it or not, and I obviously don't like it any more than anyone else here, the fact is nothing's very likely to change in the short term at least........ The good news is that the Zimbos are a tough bunch who manage to find a way to make things work, and I take my hat off to them for that.

Truly tragic, horrific situation.

But I must rant...

And I get flamed for posting a general travel advisory about Zimbabwe! Made me feel like a redheaded stepchild, almost sorry I posted it.
Was told, "You need to listen to the reports coming from Zim, not some travel advisory!" "You're not there! How would you know?" Made me feel stupid, naive. Generally humiliated. Damn...

And now I anticipate more flaming because I posted this. "You need to get over yourself!" "Stop whining!" Snide comments and rolleye smileys. Grown people acting like schoolchildren.

And all because someone couldn't say, "Thanks for the heads up about Zimbabwe. We'll take it from here."


Sometimes I hate the internet.

I've been trying to keep score here and, admittedly, it's hard to do. But if you look back at old posts, a lot (not all) of those folks who are minimizing the seriousness or questioning the validity of the reports of horrors against hundreds and even thousands of people, and those folks who are promoting the good news that comes back from Zim by way of a handful of hunters, you'll see that these people are either in the safari business in some form or another or they have an upcoming trip to Zim and seek a level of comfort or approval in their decision to proceed.

My husband and I decided to cancel our Zim trip. It may have gone off without a hitch. Or, it could have been filled with a lot of trauma and drama. Who knows? Traveling to any country that is in a state like Zim is at the moment would have to be considered a gamble. It’s a gamble we weren’t willing to take.

I also realize that not going there to hunt pulls much needed revenue and support from the safari operators and workers who are trying to function and thrive in difficult conditions. That’s a sad reality. I guess that makes them casualties of “non-war.â€

quote:

Originally posted by someoldguy:

And I get flamed for posting a general travel advisory about Zimbabwe!

They must think you are kicking the sand out of their sandbox.

I've been trying to keep score here and, admittedly, it's hard to do. But if you look back at old posts, a lot (not all) of those folks who are minimizing the seriousness or questioning the validity of the reports of horrors against hundreds and even thousands of people, and those folks who are promoting the good news that comes back from Zim by way of a handful of hunters, you'll see that these people are either in the safari business in some form or another or they have an upcoming trip to Zim and seek a level of comfort or approval in their decision to proceed.

My husband and I decided to cancel our Zim trip. It may have gone off without a hitch. Or, it could have been filled with a lot of trauma and drama. Who knows? Traveling to any country that is in a state like Zim is at the moment would have to be considered a gamble. It’s a gamble we weren’t willing to take.

I also realize that not going there to hunt pulls much needed revenue and support from the safari operators and workers who are trying to function and thrive in difficult conditions. That’s a sad reality. I guess that makes them casualties of “non-war.â€

I've got four months to watch. If the hunt was tomorrow I would go. I may not feel that way in four months. Currently my outfitter is conducting hunts in Zimbabwe and has not reported any incidents to back them off.

We'll see how it shakes out.

Sort of curious that there is a general lack of threads running about the situation in South Africa. People being killed, businesses being looted, etc. Makes one wonder if there is not some double standard at work: Perhaps South Africa is safe regardless of what happens there.

Mike

It's a totally different situation. I don't know what your news stations are telling you over there, but the truth is that the trouble here is in the townships close to Jo'burg and other large cities, where the local 'indiginous' people are attacking the illegal immigrants from Mozambique and Zimbabwe etc, because they feel the illegals are taking their much needed jobs and increasing the crime situation....... and they're probably right!

In Zimbabwe, the dictator has stolen the election yet again, and also ruined the country and it's economy etc and is authorising his secret police and army etc to attack white farmers and seize white owned land in an attempt to cling onto power........

Personally, I don't think hunters need be worried for their safety in either country.

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:
.............................
What needs to be addressed is what to do about the current situation..................

................... The good news is that the Zimbos are a tough bunch who manage to find a way to make things work, and I take my hat off to them for that.

You are quite correct Steve. I do hope that somehow from the bad of the current "....anti outlander....." violence in South Africa some good will come. A better appreciation by Mbeki and his advisors that it is not a good idea to have a neighbor in whose country there is political instability. I really smile when I thing of how Robert Mugabe will soon feel about such a statement. When thousands of Zimbabweans now under threat in South Africa, be they here legally or illegally, flee back to Zimbabwe and vote against Robert Mugabe, he is for sure going to find out the truth about how undesirable it is to have a neighbor in whose country there is political instability!

But talking about it is not yet "doing" something. So I'll invite the recruitment officers of the alleged "third force" behind the South African problem to contact me via PM! I am also eager to get some of the 5 million or thereabouts legal and mostly illegal immigrants that are currently overtaxing our country's resources to go back to their own countries. I have a good idea that not many Zimbabweans fleeing from South Africa back to their own country will vote for dear uncle Bob! But thanks in part to Britain's and US's actions in the post colonial era, we now have a "one man one vote" system in Zimbabwe, and as someone said, right now Robert Mugabe has that vote!

I too take my hat off to the brave and resourceful "make a plan" Zimbabweans who, against all odds are still making that country somehow work. Wish I could do more to actively help them, rather than just support them morally. Sure wish I had the financial wherewithal to be able to take up the half paid safaris that some people have cancelled, and others unfortunately will soon cancel. For anyone who have actually worked in Johannesburg in the early 1980's and drove past Soweto twice a day, the risk of going on a DG safari with a reputable outfit now is just nothing at all to worry about!

To all Zimbabweans who are against the human rights abuses by the current Zimbabwean government, you have my full support! To all South Africans who are against the failed “quiet diplomacy†route followed by Mbeki, I’m one of you! Still wish there was more that I could actually DO!


In good hunting.

Andrew McLaren

We had the opportunity to hunt in Zim in 2000, and as you might imagine, the same type advisories were being issued. The farm invasions were in full swing and the property we hunted on was being occupied at the time. The area was the matopos and the farm was Luma owned by Andy Connally and has been trashed. (of course)
Tomorrow we are leaving for Zim once again and after reading and viewing all that can be found regarding the situation we're still going. Having transited Zim 3 times in the last few years traveling from SA to Zambia the only changes I've observed are wrought by poverty and hunger. ( for more things than food) The one thing I've noticed is those who have been to Africa least seem to be most concerned for their safety in Africa. I'm not particularly brave and hope I'm not foolish,
but we must live before we die.

quote:

Originally posted by shakari: Personally, I don't think hunters need be worried for their safety in either country.

Exactly, and what Saeed has said THIS forum is about...Hunting.

I opted to not hunt CAR this year due to concerns about safety, not due to reports of civil disturbances and government warnings (of which there are many), but from reports from people on the ground and in the know (recent hunters) of Sudanese and Chad poachers who are operating within the hunting concessions. As it turns out one company in fact stopped hunting their boarder concessions this season. I hunted Cameroon instead, just missing by 3 weeks a strike and city riots which left many locals dead. I'll never know what I missed one way or the other. Sue you made the decision that was correct for you and your husband, from reading your posts this fact is clear to all.

Regarding Zimbabwe - there is NO QUESTION that the above story is painful to read. As have been the stories from people who have lost their homes and way of life for the past ~8 years, albeit by less physical means. And if you read The Internet - there are many stories of locals/blacks getting beat, chased from their villages and driven to SA where they are also persecuted. I just read one of a pregnant woman being beat and killed. It is a rotten shame and those of that love Zimbabwe and the people prey for the violence to end.

But the question of SAFETY as it relates to this African Hunting Forum is, has there been any similar situations thus far that have impacted the visiting hunters, and/or is there reason to believe that such violence is highly probable based on the information being provided from people on the ground - such as the recent hunters just returning, and residents of Zimbabwe especially those in the business. So far I have heard/read of nothing to this effect.

Everyone must make their own decision.

Well DUH! Isn't it obvious we have (at least) two different situations? The hunting areas are off the beaten tracks and are pronounced "safe" by the outfitters, so, all the hunters are saying "Hey let's go, no problem here". In the meantime, the folks that live in the country, not so far off the beaten tracks, are being beaten up and killed, and the hunters all beat their chests and say "Boy this is too bad, someone should do something, where is the UN when you need them".
Peter.

Just an opinion......... but:

Like most things in Africa, there's no easy answers. There's actually (at least!) two questions that hunters need to ask themselves about Zimbabwe.

The first is the more obvious which is, Is it safe for me to go to Zimbabwe? - I personally think the answer to that is yes, you're pretty much as safe hunting in Zimbabwe as you are hunting in most other African countries.

The second question is, Should I go hunting in Zimbabwe knowing that some of my dollars will eventually find it's way into RM pockets and will then be used to support his regime? - with everything that goes along with that.

Personally, I think it's entirely up to the individual to make his own decision on that and I believe no-one has the right to criticise anyone for making whatever decision they come to. It's up to them and no-one else's business.

One sometimes popular sentiment one sees is the statement that 'we owe it to the Zimbos to support them' - Sure we do, but one could always support them without putting money in RM pocket simply by sending them money, donating to a suitable Zim related charity or indeed donating to the Zim opposition party to make it easier for them to fight for democracy.

Whatever anyone thinks of Zim, they have the right to think it, and probably the best thing we could all do for the country is apply pressure to our own politicians at home to get them to do something about resolving the entire situation.

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:
The second question is, Should I go hunting in Zimbabwe knowing that some of my dollars will eventually find it's way into RM pockets and will then be used to support his regime? - with everything that goes along with that.

One sometimes popular sentiment one sees is the statement that 'we owe it to the Zimbos to support them' - Sure we do, but one could always support them without putting money in RM pocket simply by sending them money, donating to a suitable Zim related charity or indeed donating to the Zim opposition party to make it easier for them to fight for democracy.

Steve,

The problem with these issues are that they are far too complex to be dealt with in blogs and internet forums in any sort of an informed and fullsome way. Everyone brings their own set of bias and perceptions to the table, some are better informed than others, some are attempting to rationalize, some just want to stir up controversy, some are competitors, . . . and the list goes on. I guess one way to look at the issue you raised above, would be to ask the Zim operators, PHs, charter pilots, trackers, drivers, cooks, skinners, camp staff, office staff, and all the other good, hard working people that are trying to hold it together under near impossible conditions what they would prefer. Would they prefer that everyone boycott the country to avoid any potential that some of the money works its way to the government? Is there any realistic possibility that folks would support them in the same way or at the same levels without the hunting? What would happen to the hunting infratructure if the money came in but there was no hunting? These are all very complex questions that defy a simple blog answer.

I will absolutely agree, however, that decisions on these matters are individual in nature and each person must make their own informed judgment. I will also agree that the folks in Zim deserve better and I hope that the situation improves for them sooner rather than later.

quote:

Originally posted by someoldguy:
Truly tragic, horrific situation.

But I must rant...

And I get flamed for posting a general travel advisory about Zimbabwe! Made me feel like a redheaded stepchild, almost sorry I posted it.
Was told, "You need to listen to the reports coming from Zim, not some travel advisory!" "You're not there! How would you know?" Made me feel stupid, naive. Generally humiliated. Damn...

And now I anticipate more flaming because I posted this. "You need to get over yourself!" "Stop whining!" Snide comments and rolleye smileys. Grown people acting like schoolchildren.

And all because someone couldn't say, "Thanks for the heads up about Zimbabwe. We'll take it from here."


Sometimes I hate the internet.

someoldguy I agree with you on this! It seems the opposing army always tends to kill the bearer of bad news! Don't get your feelings hurt but simply consider it a human nature to want to disbelieve things you hope are untrue!

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:
The second question is, Should I go hunting in Zimbabwe knowing that some of my dollars will eventually find it's way into RM pockets and will then be used to support his regime? - with everything that goes along with that.

One sometimes popular sentiment one sees is the statement that 'we owe it to the Zimbos to support them' - Sure we do, but one could always support them without putting money in RM pocket simply by sending them money, donating to a suitable Zim related charity or indeed donating to the Zim opposition party to make it easier for them to fight for democracy.

Steve,

The problem with these issues are that they are far too complex to be dealt with in blogs and internet forums in any sort of an informed and fullsome way. Everyone brings their own set of bias and perceptions to the table, some are better informed than others, some are attempting to rationalize, some just want to stir up controversy, some are competitors, . . . and the list goes on. I guess one way to look at the issue you raised above, would be to ask the Zim operators, PHs, charter pilots, trackers, drivers, cooks, skinners, camp staff, office staff, and all the other good, hard working people that are trying to hold it together under near impossible conditions what they would prefer. Would they prefer that everyone boycott the country to avoid any potential that some of the money works its way to the government? Is there any realistic possibility that folks would support them in the same way or at the same levels without the hunting? What would happen to the hunting infratructure if the money came in but there was no hunting? These are all very complex questions that defy a simple blog answer.

I will absolutely agree, however, that decisions on these matters are individual in nature and each person must make their own informed judgment. I will also agree that the folks in Zim deserve better and I hope that the situation improves for them sooner rather than later.

You are 100% correct. The problem is that there is such an incredibly strong conflict of interest with all those in the hunting related business in Zimbabwe that any calls of "all clear" or "things are safe" need to be seriously questioned.

Reports from ranchers who don't give a rats ass if some hunter ever comes to Zimbabwe vs a PH whose lively hood depends on people coming hold very different weight with me.

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:
There's absolutely no doubt that the UK, US and indeed most of the western world let the Rhodesians down dreadfully in the pre and post independance period...

The US can't win, if we go in we are an imperialist. If we don't help we let the people down. Sigh.

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37: It seems the opposing army always tends to kill the bearer of bad news! Don't get your feelings hurt but simply consider it a human nature to want to disbelieve things you hope are untrue!

This is NOT an "us" versus "them" debate Mac, or at least it should not be.

quote:

Like most things in Africa, there's no easy answers. There's actually (at least!) two questions that hunters need to ask themselves about Zimbabwe.

The first is the more obvious which is, Is it safe for me to go to Zimbabwe? - I personally think the answer to that is yes, you're pretty much as safe hunting in Zimbabwe as you are hunting in most other African countries.

The second question is, Should I go hunting in Zimbabwe knowing that some of my dollars will eventually find it's way into RM pockets and will then be used to support his regime? - with everything that goes along with that.

Steve, I agree with this also noting Mike's point of supporting the remaining operators and areas awaiting the hopeful rebound. No easy answers, and hopefully everybody makes clear-headed, intelligent decisions.

What an awful story.

What happened to these people afterwards?

Did they suffer their beatings meekly only to lose their home and possessions?

I think the factor I find most distressing in this story is the fear of using the basic right to defend one's self, family and property as being considered an "agrivating factor" that you will likely pay a high price for. Hence the reluctance or even fear of doing so.

On the question of whether it's advisable to go to Zim anyway, while safety is always the primary concern, as Shakari aludes to somewhere above there is also a moral question regarding the aid your fees will ultimately contribute to the regeime supporting such atrocities. I'm making no arguement pro or con. I know my own feelings but have no interest in trying to influence others as there is also the question of how those poor devils still eeking out a living in the Zim safari trade will survive should everyone quite them.

quote:

Sort of curious that there is a general lack of threads running about the situation in South Africa. People being killed, businesses being looted, etc. Makes one wonder if there is not some double standard at work: Perhaps South Africa is safe regardless of what happens there.

If I may, here is my perspective on this excellent observation.

First, violence against farmers in RSA is much more frequent and bloody than it is in Zim. If you travel one of the main roads North out of JNB, you will see a hillside on the right covered with thousands of white crosses. Each white cross represents a farmer murdered (not merely beaten)after the ANC took over. In Zim, I think you can count the murders of white farmers (after the war ended and Zanu took over) on one hand. Yes, there are more farmers in RSA but as a percentage it's probably an order of magnitude more violent down there. Zim, by African standards, is a pretty quiet place.

Same goes for crime in the urban areas. Muggings, break-and-enter, vehicle hijackings etc. are extremely common in RSA. I think the statistics show RSA is the most violent place on earth, or close to it. I believe more people are murdered yearly in RSA than the comparable violent death count in Iraq. And it's going to get worse with the continued unemployment and now shortages of food. The media and the ANC perpetrate a myth that South Africa is prospering now that apartheid has been dismantled. I don't see it. Yes, the economy has been growing if you believe the official figures, but they population has been growing faster. I think literacy, employment, GDP per capita, health care, safety, infrastructure, and almost every other indicator of quality of life have deteriorated sharply in RSA since the ANC took over. The only difference is there is now a black elite - many of whom achieved their economic status via political maneuvering, not by hard work or enterpreneurial skills. The ANC has made some huge blunders, one of which is to allow uncontrolled illegal immigration under the banner of "comradeship". This is going to cause a genocide in South Africa. And the whites, who are now widely regarded by blacks as "Settlers" and aliens thanks to the propaganda emanating from the ANC, and to their trick of continuing to blame all of South Africa's ills on the "apartheid regime", are going to feel this sentiment to an increasing degree, quite soon. Apparently there are placards on taxis in the townships saying "Zimbabweans now, Whites next".

The reason nobody makes a fuss of this is that the Western World, for the most part, equates white South Africans to Nazis. This attitude has developed due to decades of media coverage during the apartheid years, and specifically documentary and fictional films covering the proceedings of the "Truth and Reconciliation Commission", which have become South Africa's Nuremburg Trials.

As a white South African that has lived in the US for over 20 years now, I have frequently come across this bias. The first incident occurred shortly after I arrived and enrolled at MIT. One of the professors told a classmate that he played squash with, who in turn told me, that he was "relieved I don't have to teach him" as I had waived the course. I hadn't even met the gentleman in question, so clearly the faculty was abuzz with the fact that a "white South African" had showed up on their precious (white, I may add) campus. Nor had I ever voted for the Nationalist Party, the architects of apartheid. It occurred to me that this guy was a bigot, as bad as some and far worse than most white South Africans. I can't tell you how many times I have run into this subsequently. It's hardly ever articulated but it often leaks out.

Regarding Zimbabwe, however, there is widespread sympathy for the remaining whites, particularly in the USA and UK. The media never did a hatchet job on the white Zimbabweans to the extent that they did for RSA. Zimbabwe was a segregated country under white rule as well, and went through the same "war of liberation", but there was no equivalent to the word "apartheid" coined for Zim. And the US in particular has taken a dislike to Mugabe after initially supporting him to the hilt. So the media tends to portray Mugabe as the bad guy in Zim, and the whites as victims. Mugabe's big mistake was to evict the white farmers from their land without compensation, in the process shooting himself in the foot. So now the whites in Zim are the good guys and Mugabe and his supporters (pretty much the entire country initially, except for the Ndebele) are the bad guys. So I am surprised the US media did not carry the Rogers story.

What is disturbing about Zimbabwe is that the police seem to be implicated in the crimes against whites, or unwilling to intervene. In SA, the police still see it as their duty, to the degree they can, to maintain law and order. For example, in the case a couple of years ago where a white tourist was raped, the perps were arraigned and sentenced. To me, the most disturbing thing about this post is that the police had hours to act and did nothing. They answered the "911" call by saying "call back in half an hour". Even the local pol looked the other way. And then when the cops showed up, the thugs didn't run. No, they handed the two victims over to the cops as if they were the criminals. This was plainly an official act, not a random crime. The mob was probably instructed to do whatever to intimidate, short of murder. The "shot over the heads" was just that. They wanted these two alive, probably as walking billboards.

So for me the big difference is RSA is a violent place that still has some semblance of the rule of law; while Zim has clearly become a police state with a vendetta against the whites. The current sentiment, stoked by Zanu, is that the whites are behind the MDC and their strategy is to turn back the clock in Zim...this does not bode well I'm afraid. It's also very ironic because the whites are a non-issue in the political balance. They are being scapegoated big time. Hopefully, the average policeman/soldier on the ground will see through this and a leader will emerge.

I may have some of the facts wrong, if so feel free to straighten me out, guys.

quote:

Originally posted by Andrew McLaren:
Russ,

You have answered your own question about why Mr. Rodgers did not return fire in the third sentence of your posting. Mr. Rodgers is alive today, not dead like the other farmer who returned fire!

May I ask a direct question to all those old enough to have been politically aware in 1965? Who got your support in the 1960's when the USA aided Brittain in selling out Rhodesia to Mugabe?

In good hunting.

Andrew McLaren

Rhodesia, of course. Milk toast politicians pissed me off then just as badly as they still do. Bloody fools!

quote:

Don't get your feelings hurt but simply consider it a human nature to want to disbelieve things you hope are untrue!

Thanks. I'm not really hurt, just venting.

These are some really nice, decent folks here.

And they paid me good money to say that!

quote:

There's absolutely no doubt that the UK, US and indeed most of the western world let the Rhodesians down dreadfully in the pre and post independance period

Sorry, Shakari, I'm going to call you on this. Ian Smith and his buddies had their chance and they blew it! They gambled and lost. Things could have been handled differently and they weren't. I was living in England at the time, and that is my perspective. Perhaps you can give me yours. The fact remains that Smith and his buddies thought the Africans would just lay down and take it, and they didn't. Smith found himself with an insurrection on his hands and no outside support. He lost that support when he refused majority rule. Now, I am NOT saying that things would be different now if this had happened. It could well be that things would be the same. I'm sorry, but I do not acknowledge Ian Smith as some kind of god. You reap what you sow is often true.
Peter.

Call it self serving if you will but the fact still stands that hunters are not having any problems in Zimbabwe. I just got a message from Mokore Safaris this AM. Everything is quiet with them and other than the lack of goods in the store things are normal. Actual violence is rare and not directed at tourists. This is not true in some other African countries where we are targeted.

I don't mean in anyway to down play the horendous ordeal the Rogers endured but the question is whether or not Zimbabwe is safe for tourist hunters. Recent events or actually lack of them indicate that it is perfectly safe for us in Zim. In RSA, Kenya and other locations this may not be true.

Mark

Mark, I reiterate;

quote:

Originally posted by oupa:
...while safety is always the primary concern, as Shakari aludes to somewhere above there is also a moral question regarding the aid your fees will ultimately contribute to the regeime supporting such atrocities. ...there is also the question of how those poor devils still eeking out a living in the Zim safari trade will survive should everyone quite them.

So yes, whether or not to continue hunting Zim under present circumstances is a morale question each must asnswer for himslef.

Russ, Some excellent points indeed! I read years ago that the number of WHITE farmers murdered by BLACKS constituted genocide by amnisty international's own definition but it's yet to be acknowledged.

There is a difinate bias and perhaps an undeserved embarressment in the west to speak out against any negative acts against whites even racial murder. Even in the more popular coverage on Zim I have NEVER seen mention in the mainstream media about the targeting of whites. We send ours troops to far off places to fight "genocide" but are afraid to even mention that it is being carried out against our own kind. Many South Africans can trace their ancestery on the continent farther than most Americans can trace their here but yet we view them as not belonging. A sad double standard indeed!

quote:

Originally posted by Peter:

quote:

There's absolutely no doubt that the UK, US and indeed most of the western world let the Rhodesians down dreadfully in the pre and post independance period

Sorry, Shakari, I'm going to call you on this. Ian Smith and his buddies had their chance and they blew it! They gambled and lost. Things could have been handled differently and they weren't. I was living in England at the time, and that is my perspective. Perhaps you can give me yours. The fact remains that Smith and his buddies thought the Africans would just lay down and take it, and they didn't. Smith found himself with an insurrection on his hands and no outside support. He lost that support when he refused majority rule. Now, I am NOT saying that things would be different now if this had happened. It could well be that things would be the same. I'm sorry, but I do not acknowledge Ian Smith as some kind of god. You reap what you sow is often true.
Peter.

You couldn't be more wrong. Ian Smith did the right honorable thing and they would have won too had we and the rest of the West not stabbed him in the back. All that "handling it different" would have accomplished, is to have let the communists in all that much sooner. Ian Smith was not a God, but man he sure was light years ahead of what came behind him and what they did to Zimbabwe. jorge

quote:

Originally posted by Peter:
[Sorry, Shakari, I'm going to call you on this. Ian Smith and his buddies had their chance and they blew it! They gambled and lost. Things could have been handled differently and they weren't. I was living in England at the time, and that is my perspective. Perhaps you can give me yours. The fact remains that Smith and his buddies thought the Africans would just lay down and take it, and they didn't. Smith found himself with an insurrection on his hands and no outside support. He lost that support when he refused majority rule. Now, I am NOT saying that things would be different now if this had happened. It could well be that things would be the same. I'm sorry, but I do not acknowledge Ian Smith as some kind of god. You reap what you sow is often true.
Peter.

Peter, I've only just seen your post on this.

Of course, it's pretty much impossible to debate the entire issue on this forum - and I'm probably not the best person to do it anyway. - Probably one of the best guys to do so would be Peter or Ganyana - but they may well prefer not to get involved.

My take on the situation is that the spineless British Government refused to support Rhodesia at all and instead gave way to early political correctness and instead did everything it could to grant/encourage premature independence/majority rule before the country and any of population (black, white and coloured) were ready for it. Admittedly, they were also pressured by other western countries, including the USA but as a Brit myself, I'm embarrassed to say the final responsibility must lay with the Brit Governemnt of the day. Had the Brits supported Rhodesia & Smith from the off, things would probably have turned out very differently. As it was, although the Rhodesians fought incredibly well and with fantastic tactics and bravery, the cold hard truth is that they were vastly outnumbered and simply didn't have the facilities to win. - With the Brits support, they would have done.

Whether independence/majority rule should have been granted at all, isn't really the question, of course it should and of course, with the benefit of hindsight, it was inevitable. - But it should have happened after a much longer period of training and education for the black population.

The Rhodesians were saying from a very early stage that if Mugabe won power, it would be one man, one vote, once.......... they weren't far wrong were they.......

FWIW, the books about the war for independence etc by Jim Parker or Peter Stiff are well worth a read and in many ways show how damn clever and incredibly brave the Rhodesian troops really were.

"had we and the rest of the West not stabbed him in the back"
Sorry Jorge, you need to learn some history. Your post is pure BS. I don't know how old you are, but I lived through this.
Shakari, no one doubts the bravery of the Rhodesians. Having said that, you need to look no further than your buddies to the south of you (RSA) to find the folks that really let you down. It was Ian Smith who unilaterally proclaimed independence after lengthy negotiations with the Brits. Was he stabbed in the back before or after this event? There is considerable evidence that Ian Smith had little or no intention of allowing majority rule, ever! What eveidence? His own words? And as to your comment:
"But it should have happened after a much longer period of training and education for the black population" I really think that is the crux of the matter. Who decides?
Having said all that, I realize that I have been a witness to one side of this and would really like to talk to somone about the other side.
As always, I appreciate your measured comments.
Peter.

In hind-sight the Colonial powers had a wonderful opportunity throughout the world to better the lives of the "majority", at least at some point. None did. The focus was on extraction of natural resources, abuse of the native labor, and hanging on to power.

In this case go back farther than Smith to Cecil John Rhodes. He found invalid pretexts to initiate wars (land grabs), and stole land through fraud from the native population and rulers. Ian Smith was nothing but a continuation of that policy, desperately trying to hold on to a country where the native population wanted him gone. He had no exit strategy. The whites in South Africa did a slightly better job of it when they saw the hand-writing on the wall. Unfortunately Rhodesia didn't have a Mandela.

The West has supported plenty of Mugabes throughout our history, if he could get us what we wanted, and could hang on to power. Once that became problematic we stepped back and let them fall........or worse.

We're selfish bastards. Guys like Cecil Rhodes or Ian Smith aren't my heros any more than Robert Mugabe.

Sounds like we're in the Political Forum, doesn't it?

Well, this can't help things. Hopefully just more rhetoric as I think I have heard this one before:

Mugabe threatens to expel U.S. ambassador

HARARE (Reuters) - Zimbabwean President Robert Mugabe on Sunday accused U.S. ambassador James McGee of political interference and threatened to expel him from the southern African nation.

"He says he fought in Vietnam, but fighting in Vietnam does not give him the right to interfere in our domestic affairs. I am just waiting to see if he makes one more step wrong. He will get out," Mugabe said in a campaign rally.

"As tall as he is, if he continues to do that I will kick him out of the country."

Mugabe also said the State Department's top diplomat for Africa, Jendayi Frazer, behaved like a prostitute for suggesting that Zimbabwe's opposition Movement for Democratic Change and its leader Morgan Tsvangirai had won the March 29 elections.

"You saw this little American girl trotting around like a prostitute celebrating that the MDC had won. A disgraceful act," Mugabe said.

(Reporting by Cris Chinaka, editing by Paul Simao and Jon Boyle)

(For full Reuters Africa coverage and to have your say on the top issues, visit: http://africa.reuters.com/)

quote:

Originally posted by Charles_Helm:
Mugabe also said the State Department's top diplomat for Africa, Jendayi Frazer, behaved like a prostitute . . .

"You saw this little American girl trotting around like a prostitute celebrating that the MDC had won. A disgraceful act," Mugabe said.

Now those are the words of a true gentleman and statesman, are they not?

Somebody needs to step on that cockroach.

The really sad part is that when Bob's gone, there is normally a good chance that the next one to follow will be just as bad or worse. That is just the sad truth in a developing country.

Just Keep in mind the people who say Zim is safe...are they making money there? Or perhaps they're doing a TV show and don't want their "Pals" who provide freebies to go broke. Oh it's safe....just hope you're not the unlucky "one" that thought it was

The reality is that nothing is safe. Personally I wouldn't be afraid to hunt Zim witha Buzz Charlton, Andrew Dawson, or HKK, one of the well-established safaris. That said I must admit to being a bit of a cowboy-risk taker-race car driver-biker type anyway. I do feel terrible for the people of all races in Zimbabwe, with the exception of the one's in Mugabe's govt, they will ultimately get their just reward, as have many others of the same personality.