After hunting Africa twice, I’m finally planning my first elephant hunt and like most of you out there would love to hunt one with a big-bore double. However, since this is probably the only use I will have for it, I’m reluctant to spend upwards of $10,000 for even a used model. It got me to thinking, why do these rifles cost so dang much? It can’t simply be the large caliber alone since you can get, for example, a Ruger No.1 in .416 Rigby for $1,147 each retail, and they are certainly a quality gun. So even if you double the manufacturing cost of one of those Rugers (two barrels, two actions and even two stocks), the retail cost is still a fraction of even an average double. I can understand the hand work necessary (back in the day) to get the barrels aligned, but modern manufacturing with laser machine accuracy should have eliminated most of that. So is it all just a matter of the volume of production or is it supply and demand or am I missing something? Can anyone in the firearms industry out there shed some light on this? Thanks.

As to why doubles cost so much, I'd encourage you to read the thread from earlier this week about how cool doubles are.

Because guys think they look cool carrying one.

ceck out bailey bradshaws post in the double rifle forum.

because good ones are handmade, one at a time using the best steels, fine walnut, and are meticulously hand crafted and fitted by craftsmen who spend weeks building one. Regulating barrels on some of them can take a week or more. If you want to hunt Elephant with one, buy a Merkel or Chapuis in 470 NE. When you return you can sell it for about what you paid for it. Although, I seriously doubt that having had it more than a month you can bear to part with it.

Rich

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I can understand the hand work necessary (back in the day) to get the barrels aligned, but modern manufacturing with laser machine accuracy should have eliminated most of that. So is it all just a matter of the volume of production or is it supply and demand or am I missing something?

Lasers have been tried and didn't work. Just doesn't work that way. Lasers are sometimes used at the bench to get the desired convergence set when the barrels are joined, but hand regulation is still required once the rifle is together. The old way is still the only way.

Basic double shotguns of good quality are expensive today, and a double rifle isn't a double shotgun with rifled barrels. The most basic double rifle takes the expense up several notches...and you don't want a cheap double rifle. Volume, which is low by any standard, also plays a significant role in the price.
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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

Bill's nailed it, it is the cool factor that drives the cost.

Here are some reasons:

1. Very low volume. This makes amortization of development, tooling, startup costs, and setup costs more expensive. It also precludes much automation ... leaving many many operations to be done by hand.

2. Large numbers of intricate parts. There are many more parts in a double than in a bolt rifle. Don't forget it's really two separate guns in a common stock.

3. Multiple fitup surfaces. On a bolt rifle, the only tricky mechanism fitup is headspace. On a double, you have the forend hanger, the underbolt (2 bites), the third fastener, the breech surfaces, and the headspace. All are fitted by hand.

4. Engraving. Most doubles have some degree of hand engraving.

5. Regulation. Must be done for each individual rifle, by trial and error. This may include filing multiple leaf iron sights. It takes at least a day to regulate a double.

6. Rust blueing/case coloring. You can't dunk a double in a tank of hot caustic and call it blued. Soft solder precludes hot blueing. Each part must be meticulously polished, cleaned, and finished. Rust blueing takes 4-5 days, not 4-5 minutes.

7. Inletting. Can't be done by CNC to the degree that bolt rifle stocks are inletted by CNC. Requires plenty of painstaking handwork. And most quality guns are stocked to order. With fancy wood. Checkering is done by hand on all quality doubles.

8. Timed screws. Each screw is fitted and timed, and then engraved.

9. The crappy greenback. Most doubles are made in countries where the currency has doubled against our dollar.

10. It's a Veblen good. The more expensive it is, the more people want it.

Having said that, you can get a FinnClassic (formerly Valmet) 512 double rifle in 9.3x74 for $2250; a Chapuis sxs in the same caliber for $4500; and you can even get a crude and crappy Russian 30-06 double for about $1000.

Now you can't confuse production doubles (Merkel, Krieghoff, Searcy, Chapuis etc.) with a fine vintage English double by Holland, Purdey, Fraser etc. That's like comparing a Buick to a Ferrari. These are not only fine hand-made rifles, they are collectible works of art.

A fine double costs so much for the same reason a divorce costs so much.

They're both worth it.

quote:

Originally posted by mrlexma:
A fine double costs so much for the same reason a divorce costs so much.

They're both worth it.

Supply and demand.

Buy one, go to Africa shoot a couple of elephants and come back and sell it. Thats what I did, even if you lose a few bucks - so what it will be small compared to the cost of the hunt.

BigB

If I paid $10,000 for a rifle, it would be really coool-because I would be sleeping outside with the dog . Until I win the lottery, I will have to stick with my bolt guns.

Doubles are like a lot of Snap On tools, in that they are perfect for certain isolated jobs and very expensive.

quote:

Originally posted by 458Win:
Doubles are like a lot of Snap On tools, in that they are perfect for certain isolated jobs and very expensive.

Excellent metaphor...

quote:

Originally posted by BigB:
Buy one, go to Africa shoot a couple of elephants and come back and sell it. Thats what I did, even if you lose a few bucks - so what it will be small compared to the cost of the hunt.

BigB

I thought the same thing for buffalo hunt. Only problem is I still have the double and have no intention of selling it.

quote:

Originally posted by 458Win:
Doubles are like a lot of Snap On tools, in that they are perfect for certain isolated jobs and very expensive.

Mr. shoemaker

which job would you not use a double rifle for ?


best

peter

one of reasons are customers the new richs love to boast with their new double rifles and love to play Lord ripon and show it to the others i have seen many really rich guys or guys from old families using a nice bolt actions and they kill both elefant and rhino no problem better magazin capacity and line of sight and no problem with barrel being regulated for only one kind of ammo it is boasting value of these guns that make them so expensive not really the hunting value a nice lever action rifle would shoot as fast as a double if it was chambered in big bore calibers and more capacity maybe 5 or even 6 rounds.a bolt action can kill every thing on earth and is much more strnogly built capable of taking strongest calibers in the world and shoot with much more precision at longer range if needed!!! we see at AR our dear host mister saeed killing every thing in africa nice and clean with a bolt action rifle and with a little training one can shoot very fast with a bolt action too.
yes

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Because guys think they look cool carrying one.

Will, aren't you toooooooo old to use the word "cool"???

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Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Because guys think they look cool carrying one.

Will, aren't you toooooooo old to use the word "cool"???

Careful now, we "old guys" are very cool.

I just like to give Will hell about something.

A really well done bolt rifle runs past $10k.

But a servicable DG bolt runs only a couple of $k's.

Not much hand work on a servicable bolt, but some, a whole lot more on a really nice bolt rifle.

(If you cannot descern the difference, cannot appreciate the difference between a rifle built by the likes of Duane Weibe or Ryan Breeding and an off the shelf or mildly gone over Winchester M70 or CZ might as well stop reading now.)

A decent but basic double has a lot of hand work. The higher end doubles have a huge amount. IIRC, there is a thread on the making of an H&H double on the double rifles board and something like 1000 hours of hand time go into an H&H double.

Even in my business, which is mechanical service work, a jouneyman is charged out at $1k/8hr day in my region. Not to undercut the skill of a good journeyman steamfitter, who has a lot of training and experience and skill, but he isn't an actioner, stocker, engraver or barrel filer either. And there are more steamfitters to boot.

JPK

quote:

because good ones are handmade, one at a time using the best steels, fine walnut, and are meticulously hand crafted and fitted by craftsmen who spend weeks building one.

Not to be a nit picker, but...

The best ones take many months to build if not longer, add to that if you want engraving on the side plates. Lots of that time the double is sitting waiting for the next person in the process (barrel maker, action fitter, stock maker, engraving, regulating, etc, etc.)

Compare this to a production or even semi-custom bolt rifle where almost everything's mass produced and made on a production line, slapped in a box and shipped to a big box store. Huge difference in cost.

My old German DR was bought before the frenzy for a ridiculously low price. TO have it remade today would be well over $40,000 because of the engraving.

The materials that go into a double rifle are only more expensive because the small company buys in small lots and doesn't have purchasing power, the material's are not any better than in a finely made bolt rifle.

Best answer so far is that they look cool. There's always a market for Maserati's, Ferrari's and double rifles. Things don't have to be practical or reliable to cost a pile of money.

I had tons of fun with my DR but tired of its limitations and sold it with few (though some) regrets. Hope to buy another some day if/when I get more $ and time.

If you're not "into" double rifles I'd buy one and sell it when you return.

Well, its not that us old guys can't afford a good double but not being a PH myself, I can't justify the cost. A mechanic will spend 15-20 grand every year or so on those snap on tools but then he makes his living with them. Then again, it ain't nothing but money!

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
because good ones are handmade...
Rich

And I might add, even the "cheap" ones require a lot more hand work and fitting than other firearms of comparable quality. Until you've seen and felt a double in it's unassembled state and studied how each component interacts with the rest and how the final product functions in such little space while containing the tremendous forces... well, when you've done that your question will never cross your mind again. The adage of double guns being the penicle of the gunmaker's art is more than just a saying!

quote:

Originally posted by yes:
one of reasons are customers the new richs love to boast with their new double rifles and love to play Lord ripon and show it to the others i have seen many really rich guys or guys from old families using a nice bolt actions and they kill both elefant and rhino no problem better magazin capacity and line of sight and no problem with barrel being regulated for only one kind of ammo it is boasting value of these guns that make them so expensive not really the hunting value a nice lever action rifle would shoot as fast as a double if it was chambered in big bore calibers and more capacity maybe 5 or even 6 rounds.a bolt action can kill every thing on earth and is much more strnogly built capable of taking strongest calibers in the world and shoot with much more precision at longer range if needed!!! we see at AR our dear host mister saeed killing every thing in africa nice and clean with a bolt action rifle and with a little training one can shoot very fast with a bolt action too.
yes

I take it from your post above that you don't own a double rifle, and have never owned a double rifle, and that you see no need for a double rifle for any purpose!

................

The only thing wrong with that opinion is that it is nothing more than OPINION, and everyone has one of those. Your post all boils down to one FACT any weapon will kill anything if everything is just right, and they will all fail if everything is wrong enough. However when the rubber meets the road, the chance of a failier is far more likely with a bolt rifle than with a double rifle, when the chips are down, and your nearves are ratteled.

.................. ...............

"Because guys think they look cool carrying one. "

Hey....I resemble that remark!!! I know I look cool carrying mine....especially during deer season. EVERYONE that sees it wants to know what it is and wishes they could have one. So YES, I look cool carrying it.
WW

hi Mac
you are right about that. i have no need för a double. if i was a ph and had the responsability for my clients and had to follow a beast in the bush i might bought a double. back in early 1970 i tried a few doubles and liked their short range accuracy , but disapointed about their long range ability . oh yes these are beautiful artifacts, but frankly i don't beleive an average hunter need a double gun for average hunting.they make a good investment object if kept in the safe and not used in the field
regards
yes

If accuracy at the range you expect to shoot game with a rifle is an issue, then the game doesn't justify a double rifle.

Not that double rifles can't be accurate enough for game at long ranges, just that any game where a double rifle is truly an advantage is shot at close range.

Where, imo, is a double rifle an advantage? Elephant, any DG follow up. But only elephant for the first shot, buff, certainly lion and leopard, a scoped bolt is better or at least more versatile for the first shot, or maybe a scoped double.

Loaded properly, a double rifle ought to be plenty accurate for "typical" field shooting, ie, real life hunting 90% of the time or so. Not a whole lot different than a bolt rifle with the same sighting system, whatever it might be, express sights, apperature, scope.

But most don't know this. They think, for examples, that double rifles barrels converge or their bullets cross. Not so, only an improperly loaded rifle does this. For a properly loaded double rifle, the bullets from the right and left barrels shoot parrallel from muzzles til they hit the dirt, and they are but the center to center measurement of the muzzles apart.

JPK

Ok, OK. So all the hand work, many more parts, regulation, etc. makes doubles so expensive.

But why do 450-400s through 500s cost so much more than 9.3x74Rs? Sometimes almost twice as much. All the hand work etc. would appear to be the same. The only difference is about a pound and a half of steel.

Little rifles can be built on shotgun actions, which are made in larger quantities.

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Originally posted by JBoutfishn:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Because guys think they look cool carrying one.

Will, aren't you toooooooo old to use the word "cool"???

Careful now, we "old guys" are very cool.

We invented cool.

Prices of doubles have DOUBLED, pardon the pun, since the Big Box Store boys got in the game...some 3-10x real prices...and maybe half the actual quality doubles are in their inventories..STALLED!! Well, you know the power of the bean counters in Corporate America, if it ain't turnin...it's gotta go...and eventually they will...I am just waiting for the "Double Bubble" to BURST!!
Many poor(uninformed) buys by these guys in pursuit to capture the market...then there was the great following...HA, now they're stuck!!
When the quality brokers can NO Longer offer to buy back, consign, trade at their sale prices to good customers...the gig is up!!
Just wait...be the Buzzard in the tree..."I'll sit on it until .....
Better yet...go out and start offering "reasonable"...they might say ridiculous!!...prices....see what happens!!

470EDDY.....Cabelas is already starting to feel the very "pinch" you are referring to. They dropped a very nice Merkel 470 NE rifle with upgraded wood 2 grand in the past 3 months and told me I could have it for a grand less than that "if I was serious". I am sure other DR retailers are in the same boat. The big bore boom, bolt/DR/SS and handgun is close to being over, and the retailers are taking note. Probably why Winchester is not bending over backwards to roll out a new Safari Classic rifle.

quote:

Originally posted by RyanB:
Little rifles can be built on shotgun actions, which are made in larger quantities.

I just ordered a book on that. And I got a double shotgun to tinker with.

hi
in germany they make ful length insert barrels which are used in shotguns. if you buy a pair of insert barrels in 9,3x74 you can transform your shotgun to a double rifle. these insert barrels are very well made and accurate and can be regulated by a screw at the muzzle.
cheers
yes

Because it is like having two separate rifles in one that shoot to the same point of aim.

Or, akin to getting two housecats to walk side-by-side and obey every command you give them!

Making good double rifles ain't easy and generally one that puts the effort forth to do so, also embellishes it accordingly - thus the cost!

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
Because guys think they look cool carrying one.

Well yes I do

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:

But most don't know this. They think, for examples, that double rifles barrels converge or their bullets cross. Not so, only an improperly loaded rifle does this. For a properly loaded double rifle, the bullets from the right and left barrels shoot parrallel from muzzles til they hit the dirt, and they are but the center to center measurement of the muzzles apart.

JPK

Can you provide a source for this information?

The "fact" that DRs are regulated so that their bullets cross at a certain distance has been repeated more than a few times.

i hope i can be at least some help here, JPK is right in everything he say's in the quote.

a lot of people, especially if it is not in their hunting culture, dont understand double rifles very well, and a lot of myth come from that.


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peter

i have to admit i have never hunted with a double rifle and none of my hunter friends here own a double rifle in sweden and never seen a single guy with a double on älgbana(shooting at running moose targets). it was very interesting to know that the barrels are shooting paralel and not crossing each others in a double. in sweden normaly bolt actions are used for fast shooting at running target.
my dearest friend mister Dk.which kind of games are hunted with double rifle in denmark?
my absolut best regards
yes
which kind of game is huntedwith double in Denmark?