Cause chicks dig em...

They cost so much because they can get someone to pay that for one!

How about a specific case? About 20 yrs ago I spotted for sale locally a used but excellent condition Westley Richards 450/.400. I think it was an older gun and it had this look as if someone just came in off an African hunt with it. Anyway, the price was $6,000. I longed for it but couldn't afford it back then. It sat for about two years before someone else finally realized what a treasure it was and bought it.

Question - if this same gun was available today what is the maximum you would be willing to pay? I don't mean what it might possibly go for or what it would be listed for on GB, but what would it be worth to you to own it?

Shack....interesting question!! 10 years ago, just as I was retiring, early, with a wad in my pocket...I had the same situation, a WR 450/400 priced at $8500...but it was cut way short, perhaps for a woman??...I had recently sold a beautiful Jeffrey 450/400 also short for $9000. I wanted that WR badly...lost many nights sleep on it...struggling to buy at $7500 so I could get it restocked (under WR letter here) and still be under $10K...dealer finally sold it for $8500...and I have regretted it ever since....but I still had my trusty 470 in the vault!...and a couple of blackies
Now that said, what would I pay today?? Well, in the last few years the WR agency has fooled a few boys with 450-400 recently becoming popular, maybe because of Hornady ammo??...at $22000!!....I think, the Mine is Bigger than Yours guys!!I can just hear the CCLUB cocktail chatter...YOU PAID WHAT-for a 450-400 peashooter..that's not a dangerous gun??!! Then things died...all kinds of them advertised at $21-23K, some more at the highbinders in the Minn state and big box boys....would I pay $12K today...MAYBE for a REAL NICE ONE??!!
I am giving serious consideration to buying great German and Austrian guns...tell me, did you ever see a great running Jag, MG, Land Rover...vs a Mercedes?? Most PH's are driving Toyotas today...Remember the RE market. the Stock Market and mortgage market...the
Double Bubble is coming!!
Make RIDICULOUS offers, you might get surprised!
Yes, I will eventually buy another 450-400, I am on the hunt...and that's most of the fun!!

quote:

Originally posted by JBrown:

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:

But most don't know this. They think, for examples, that double rifles barrels converge or their bullets cross. Not so, only an improperly loaded rifle does this. For a properly loaded double rifle, the bullets from the right and left barrels shoot parrallel from muzzles til they hit the dirt, and they are but the center to center measurement of the muzzles apart.

JPK

Can you provide a source for this information?

The "fact" that DRs are regulated so that their bullets cross at a certain distance has been repeated more than a few times.

Many things are repeated by people who are un informed. Many story’s that repeated often enough take on a mantel of fact.
JPK and Peter are telling you the truth. From 25 yard to 200 yard the left should hit to the left of the aiming point and the right to the right.
You can do a little reading, as there are many post on this subject.
Bill

I'm curious about this issue of regulation. Why don't they just make the barrels parallel, and accept that the right barrel will shoot 3/4 of an inch to the right of point of aim, and the left barrel 3/4" to the left?

Or does being off by 3/4" make a difference?

beside the issue of regulation of barrels. the main reason of such a high price was the customers. in the past when only very few persons had the possibilty to go to safari. these DR was often ownned by aristocrats around the world and it was a object of prestige to own a nice DR. the lords in england nawabs and maharajes in india and royaltiees around the world. the only i knew owning a nice british DR was HRH the late prince abdorezza pahlavi which visted our shooting club. today the things have changed and customers too. you may see nice DR in hands of rich criminals like drug barons and a lot of honest peoples too. but the sight of a hippy dung with pony tail carrying a nice DR surely will decrease both cultural and even material value of these nice guns.
best regards
yes

Corax,
It is so much more complicated than just making the barrels parallel. I dought if you could hit anything if the barrels were parallel. The left barrel recoils up and to the left, the right barrel up and to the right. The art of regulating them to strike in the proper spot is the alcamey of regulating a double rifle. You have to take into consideration bullet weight and barrel time (the time the bullet is in the barbell under recoil). The center of each barbell group should be the same distance apart as the distance between the centerline of the bores. This is why you can’t load just any bullet and powder charge (like a bolt gun). You need to use the load it was regulated with to get it to shoot properly.

“Or does being off by 3/4" make a difference?”
The reality is that 3/4" wont make any difference in real world hunting situations. I don’t know any one who can hold 3/4" at 100 yards offhand or from sticks.
I was at the range one time with a friend who was shooting a .577, a local “expert” noted he wasn’t doing to well he was only getting 4 inch groups at 50 yards. The shooter replied “ when you hit a animal with a 750 gr bullet you aren’t going to do one bit more damage shooting him in the same spot cause you have already done all the damage you can do.
Bill

Well here we go agian……………………………Regulating double rifles!

The thinking of most people is that the double rifle is regulated to cross at a given distance. This is because the barrels have to be converging in their regulation. The unschooled believe that because of the line of sight through the barrels do cross, that the bullets cross as well when the rifle is fired. This is not true. Because of the physical convergence of the barrels the shoots shoot parallel not crossing! I know to the unschooled this sounds counter to common sense, but it is true never the less. If the barrels are made parallel, you would be lucky to get both barrels to hit the target at 50 yds. Thre right barrel would shoot wide to the right, and left barrel would shoot wide to the left. NOT GOOD!

Let me explain!

If you take the barrels off any double rifle that was properly regulated and clamp the barrels by the under lumps in a padded vice, with the sights pointing on the target at the so-called “REGULATED DISTANCE” , the place two empty cases, with the primers removed, in the chambers, and look through the primer holes, like a peep sight, in each barrel, you will see that the LEFT barrel will be pointing to a spot on the target that is on the RIGHT, and LOW. The RIGHT barrel will be pointing to a spot that on the LEFT, and LOW. The point of aim will be high and CENTERED between the right and the left barrels.

The reason for this is that when the trigger is pullet on the RIGHT barrel, the sight is on the aiming point on the target, but there is a thing called “BARREL TIME” which is the time the bullet is traveling down the barrel. That RIGHT barrel that WAS pointing to a spot that was LOW, and LEFT of the aiming point, when it exits the muzzle it is pointing to a point on the target that is just to the RIGHT, and the elevation is the same as the aiming point. This is because the RIGHT barrel during the barrel time, rises UP, and too the RIGHT, or away from the other barrel. The exact opposite is true of the LEFT barrel.

Where the idea, most have, that a double rifle is regulated to cross at a given point comes from two different places. #1 is the way the makers word their catalogs. Stating “This rifle is regulated to 100 mtrs.” ! This has only to do with the sights being filed to point to a spot that is between the impact points of both barrels, horizontally and for elevation at the prescribed distance. A single barreled rifle’s iron sights are REGULATED for elevation the same way, but can be pointing to a point that is above the line of sight through the barrel. #2 is that some very well known gun writers, and most very well known gunsmiths who deal with single barreled rifles, simply do not know what they are talking about, but print the crossing misconception as FACT, and then their readers repeat it as FACT as well.

I hve read in many magazines that the multiple flip-ups are simply there as decoration, and are useless. This is not true.

A well regulated double rifle with flip-up rear blades in the sights will all have the center line of their line of sights all in line with each other no matter the range, with the only difference is for higher elevation for down range shooting. If the barrels were regulated to cross at SAY 100 mtrs, then the shots would get wider the farteher they went down range, so that the center ling on those sights would be only good for one barrel. The fact is, the centers of each barrel’s individual group will remain on it’s own side of the aiming point, no matter the range. This doesn’t mean that shots from each barrel will not spill over in the group of the other barrel as the group gets larger as the shot go down range, but the center of each barrel’s group will remain on it’s own side of the aiming point or “PARALLEL “ With both barrels individual groups forming a slightly egg shaped composite group on the target with point of aim half way between the CENTERS of both individual barrel groups’ centers.

I hope this is as clear as Mississippi mud, and to some extent explains the regulation of a double rifle. Though this operation is costly in both time and ammo costs, and requires the hands of a very skilled regulator, this is not, contrary to popular belief, the biggest cost of building a double rifle. The total regulating time and the skill is a pittance when compared to the over all time in building the double rifle to completion. These things cannot be rushed, because one simple mistake can trash a very expensive action, or other part, that has already taken a lot of time, and skill to get to the point where it was ruined. The people who have the skill to built double rifles is expensive, and the cost of all the materials and skilled time has to be paid for up front, and that in most cases is borrowed money with interest to pay on those funds, and the people doing the work cant wait seven or eight months to be paid, their wages. The 50% deposit when ordering a rifle only covers the cost of the materials for a rifle being made to order. In the case of the factory that makes off the shelf doubles like Merkel, Krieghoff, Heym, and many others not only have to front all the cost to build the rifle to completion, but may not sell the rifle for some time, and still sell the rifle for a reasonable price.

This is the answer to why the double rifles in smaller chamberings cost less than the ones made for heavy chamberings for dangerous game. The smaller chamberings have a very wide customer base so the rifle move off their shelves far faster than the big boys, which may lie on the maker’s shelves for two or three years before someone orders them. That lag time when the money has already been fronted costs a lot of interest. So, a product that moves faster, and sells more units simply costs less to make, and market. It takes just as much skill to build the small bore doubles as it does to make the big bore doubles, but the big bore costs more to make and MARKET than the small bore.

………………………………..Well that is a long winded post to tell you that those who thing the double rifle is regulated to cross are simply wrong, and if you work up a load that shoots in one hole, you better go back to the loading bench, because if both barrels are shooting in one hole they are CROSSING, and are shooting too fast, and need to slow down some till they shoot side by side!

The info in this post is free to the reader and may be absorbed or rejected he sees fit!
...................... ..........

quote:

Originally posted by yes:
i have to admit i have never hunted with a double rifle and none of my hunter friends here own a double rifle in sweden and never seen a single guy with a double on älgbana

this have been quite obvius from your postings,
may i suggest that you spend some time reading about the subject in the double rifle section, it may give you some idea what this subject is about.

quote:

my dearest friend mister Dk.which kind of games are hunted with double rifle in denmark?
my absolut best regards
yes
which kind of game is huntedwith double in Denmark?

everything that you would point your bolt rifle at, i have proberly pointed a double rifle at, from fox and upwards.

peter

quote:

Originally posted by yes:
beside the issue of regulation of barrels. the main reason of such a high price was the customers. in the past when only very few persons had the possibilty to go to safari. these DR was often ownned by aristocrats around the world and it was a object of prestige to own a nice DR. the lords in england nawabs and maharajes in india and royaltiees around the world. the only i knew owning a nice british DR was HRH the late prince abdorezza pahlavi which visted our shooting club. today the things have changed and customers too. you may see nice DR in hands of rich criminals like drug barons and a lot of honest peoples too. but the sight of a hippy dung with pony tail carrying a nice DR surely will decrease both cultural and even material value of these nice guns.
best regards
yes

yes
could we at least agree that you should go back and read about the subject, before you deside to post your humorus ideas.

P.S my ponytail never devalued any gun i sold or build, you ought to know your own history about how we determine who is free and who is a slave in the nordic country's right or is that another part of all the stuff that you deside to comment about without any background knowlegde.

peter aka hippy dung

I love the feel, looks, and function of the double rifle. I hunt with bolt guns, mostly. All guns tend to increase in value, double rifles seem to increase faster. If you want one keep looking for a deal, they're out there. Shoot it, hunt with it, admire it and it will be worth alot to your family some day, because you will never sell it. I just sold one to buy another....not so sure I should have sold the Merkel to up grade. Could have sold some bolt guns and had more doubles......Tom

peter sorry
if you took that this way i diden't meant you personally . it was just a tought, by the way . what kind of gun and caliber are you using ? nice trophy.don't take it personaly i haden't seen this picture before.
cheers
yes

by the way about double guns. had oportunity to handle afew english doubles belonging to friends and relatives in eraly 1970-s unlike the gun in your picture they were heavy and in large calibers. excellent rifles with very high craftmanship. i loved the way they feel and ballance and short range acuracy as none of them were carrying scope sight only express sight, but heavy to carry a day long of hunting and specialised for heavy dangerous game. about the salave and masters . my family owned slaves and i am not proud of that . i beleive it is against dignity of mankind. i am proud my grand father gave them free .
-letter. i don't know about nordic slave tradition as i am born in Persia but i don't believe in the nordic countries they had slave from other countries mostly they owned each others. there were masters(hövding) fighters(kämpe) and slaves. it was rather like indian society which peoples are divided in different kasts. the nordic (kämpe) were often
hiered by our kings as roos(the name viking were called)they were very good fighter and they worked as skillful blacksmith in persian empire.
yes

quote:

Originally posted by yes:
peter sorry
if you took that this way i diden't meant you personally . it was just a tought, by the way . what kind of gun and caliber are you using ? nice trophy.don't take it personaly i haden't seen this picture before.
cheers
yes

no problem yes

i forgot to put the little wink smiley there as i were just pulling your leg a bit.
the gun n the picture is a french double rifle from the 1950's in 9,3x74r, it weighed around 6-7 pounds and were a joy to shoot and hunt with, somebody wanted it more than me and gave me an offer i could not turn down and i still regret letting it go

best

peter

quote:

Originally posted by yes:
by the way about double guns. had oportunity to handle afew english doubles belonging to friends and relatives in eraly 1970-s unlike the gun in your picture they were heavy and in large calibers. excellent rifles with very high craftmanship. i loved the way they feel and ballance and short range acuracy as none of them were carrying scope sight only express sight, but heavy to carry a day long of hunting and specialised for heavy dangerous game. about the salave and masters . my family owned slaves and i am not proud of that . i beleive it is against dignity of mankind. i am proud my grand father gave them free .
-letter. i don't know about nordic slave tradition as i am born in Persia but i don't believe in the nordic countries they had slave from other countries mostly they owned each others. there were masters(hövding) fighters(kämpe) and slaves. it was rather like indian society which peoples are divided in different kasts. the nordic (kämpe) were often
hiered by our kings as roos(the name viking were called)they were very good fighter and they worked as skillful blacksmith in persian empire.
yes

yes

we had slaves from everywhere, and the usual way to show that they were slaves were to cut their hair short (branding is babaric and bad for buisness) so short hair=owned by someone, long hair= free man= hippy dung

best

peter

thanks for the information. chapuis makes excellent DRs with elegance and accuracy.9,3x74 R is an excellent round,
good hunting
yes

quote:

Originally posted by yes:
thanks for the information. chapuis makes excellent DRs with elegance and accuracy.9,3x74 R is an excellent round,
good hunting
yes

this was not a chapuis though, it was a heutier the french have had quite a few different makers that made nice rifles. but get out and try a few medium caliber rifles and you will be supprised how good they carry

best

peter

peter the name heurtier is known for high quality barrels in france . heurtier made barrel for many of old goodies in france like . bergeron, boucher, hercule plume and more. it is a pitty you sold that nice DR. i have lived in france for many years and seen many old nice shotgun with canon heurtier, it is often writen in the underside of barreles canon heurtier, which means the barrels are made by maison heurtier. there are great number of smal artisanl gunmakers in the city of saint etien many of them used to buy their barrels from heurtier and they have a real superb quality.
regards
yes

Uh-oh....I smell an Viking rivalry kicking up!!!

ok in scandinavia long hair means free and short hair means slave oh I see why my wife wanted my hair cut short the day i married her anyway after that day i never saw the light of freedom again

ah they are so expensive until you hit something with one, then they are worth every penny.... for a double bargain why don't you look internationally for a modern kreighoff, heym merkel or chapuis?

If not a 6th hand army navy, william evans, charles lancaster or something like it might be also possible something from the early 1900s export trade. Australia had some nice ones and Zim too i hear.

I like them... no matter what the price....

tm

well
chapuis, merkel , kreighof are not expensive rifles. it seems i was missunderstanding all what i was talking about is large bore british rifles like H&H. it was one double H&H in auction. it was priced 120,000 BPound i still belive this kind of price is only can be paid if not by a royalty or bank owner then a pretencious vilan with a lot of dirty money, for that price i would buy a good chapuis and hunt with a couple of mounth in africa.
cheers
yes