Both Dogleg (his hunt) AND Charl(his reputation) have been saved by folks' generosity.

The way folks came out to help one of his clients speaks volumes about Charl.

The way folks came out to help an 'unknown' hunter speaks volumes about the folks here.

Well done all around.

You folks make me proud to be an AR member. Thanks are due so much to all of you and especially Andrew!

quote:

Both Dogleg (his hunt) AND Charl(his reputation) have been saved by folks' generosity.

The way folks came out to help one of his clients speaks volumes about Charl.

The way folks came out to help an 'unknown' hunter speaks volumes about the folks here.

Well done all around.

Hunting: Exercising dominion over creation at 2800 fps.

Someone remind me how this incident reflects positively on Charl?

quote:

Originally posted by Duckear:
Both Dogleg (his hunt) AND Charl(his reputation) have been saved by folks' generosity.

In my opinion you are only half right.

I don't think that any of you have all of the facts quite yet to hang Charl in the court of public opinion. He'll respond when he returns from Moz, I can assure you. He's a damn good PH and outfitter and he works very hard for his clients. Human error, from time to time, occurs with us all doesn't it?

quote:

Originally posted by Use Enough Gun:
I don't think that any of you have all of the facts quite yet to hang Charl in the court of public opinion. He'll respond when he returns from Moz, I can assure you. He's a damn good PH and outfitter and he works very hard for his clients. Human error, from time to time, occurs with us all doesn't it?

I couldn't care less about hanging or vindicating Charl. I gave my OPINION, just as you have, and will not participate in a lynching or a lovefest for him. My mind is made up.

you don't even have enough information to have an opinion.....

quote:

Originally posted by Lhook7:

quote:

Originally posted by Use Enough Gun:
I don't think that any of you have all of the facts quite yet to hang Charl in the court of public opinion. He'll respond when he returns from Moz, I can assure you. He's a damn good PH and outfitter and he works very hard for his clients. Human error, from time to time, occurs with us all doesn't it?

I couldn't care less about hanging or vindicating Charl. I gave my OPINION, just as you have, and will not participate in a lynching or a lovefest for him. My mind is made up.

interesting that your mind is made up with only one side of the story/facts. keep up the good work.....

quote:

Originally posted by 505 gibbs:

quote:

Both Dogleg (his hunt) AND Charl(his reputation) have been saved by folks' generosity.

The way folks came out to help one of his clients speaks volumes about Charl.

The way folks came out to help an 'unknown' hunter speaks volumes about the folks here.

Well done all around.

Hunting: Exercising dominion over creation at 2800 fps.

Someone remind me how this incident reflects positively on Charl?

From my reading, it seems folks that know him are going out of their way to help his client in his absence / oversight/ screwup.
Having those kinds of friends generally indicates a decent person. Assholes generally don't have such associates.

In the end, time will tell, as the details emerge.

quote:

Originally posted by jdollar:

quote:

Originally posted by Lhook7:

quote:

Originally posted by Use Enough Gun:
I don't think that any of you have all of the facts quite yet to hang Charl in the court of public opinion. He'll respond when he returns from Moz, I can assure you. He's a damn good PH and outfitter and he works very hard for his clients. Human error, from time to time, occurs with us all doesn't it?

I couldn't care less about hanging or vindicating Charl. I gave my OPINION, just as you have, and will not participate in a lynching or a lovefest for him. My mind is made up.

interesting that your mind is made up with only one side of the story/facts. keep up the good work.....

Jerry, I was thinking the exact same thing when I saw his post. For some reason, there seems to be a strong movement on AR right now to convict and discredit fellows with previously good reputations, all without knowing both sides of the story. What motivates these jumps to conclusions?

I've got no dog in this fight at all so I don't think my comments are biased, but from my perspective, it seems there may be some serious communication issues responsible for a large part of this. For example, consider the following:

On Sept 27th, Dogleg posts in this thread that he is boarding for Frankfurt, leg 2 of 5. The following morning, Andrew posts that he is in the O.R. Tambo airport SAPS office but there is no Dogleg. Dogleg then posts that he informed Andrew via PM of his flight details and that he is to arrive in JoBerg on the 29th of September. Very shortly thereafter, I suppose he rechecked his PMs and comes back onto this thread and states that he did provide the flight details to Andrew via PM, but forgot to provide HIS DATE OF ARRIVAL! A bit of an important detail I would think!

So just with that little SNAFU, Andrew ended up making two trips to the airport to help Dogleg out, due to his failing to provide the date of arrival to Andrew. Now, from that alone, isn't it possible that other, more serious failures to communicate could have led to much of this fiasco? Seems legit to me but, none of us here have heard from Charl publicly on the matter. There may be a very simple explanation for this; and there may not be. Point being that we don't know all of the details. That being the case, why not give the guy with the reputation for being a good and honest PH / Outfitter, the benefit of the doubt at least until he has a chance to chime in and give his side?

Personally, I'm not a tit for tat, keep score to a gnat's ass type of fellow. Things have a way of working out in the end. I understand Dukear's comment about Andrew helping both guys out. Dogleg gets to go on his hunt and Charl will have hopefully provided another great hunt to another client. Did mistakes happen here, yeah, it surely seems like it. But we're all human and prone to making honest mistakes. Sometimes, help from a friend is the only thing that keeps things on track. That also seems to have happened here with Andrew's involvement.

But on that subject, unlike some here, I don't necessarily think Andrew is "owed" a reward other than "thanks". By that I mean that Andrew showed he is a man of character by jumping in and helping out two fellow hunters, one on the client side of the equation and one on the outfitter side. I doubt he was thinking of receiving a monetary reward for doing so. Unless I'm off the mark, I'll bet he did it because he thought it to be the right thing to do, assuming he had the capability to help in the first place. Reward for his efforts? I would think a heartfelt thank you from Dogleg and Charl will satisfy Andrew 100%.

But again, things have a way of working out don't they? Compare this situation to the other fellow a while back. What was his name ... Bushbuck or Bushwack outfitters? Remember him? He was the guy that failed to return Carolinaman's very small plains game deposit when he found out Carolinaman has cancer and can't make the trip. He used the letter of the law to justify not returning the money which IIRC was about $2,400. He was in his legal right to hold it, but what kind of personal character did he demonstrate? Compare that to Andrew and this situation! It's just a hunch, but I'll bet Andrew will gain a huge monetary reward from guys now wanting to hunt with him, simply because of the type of character he displayed in helping a couple of guys he had no financial interest in. I haven't hunted RSA in since 09 now, and even with 4 safaris to that country, I have a few species I'm interested in hunting that are pretty much endemic to RSA, or perhaps Namibia. I can tell you right now, I've made up my mind who I'll be hunting with when I do go back after springbuck, Vahl reedbuck, etc.! I'll be hunting with Andrew!!

just so everyone knows, there was a behind-the scenes individual who is a member here but doesn't want credit for his efforts. he actually put Andrew in contact with Charl because he had Charls' most recent sat phone numbers when no one else did. i am not at liberty so say more unless this individual choose to come forward but suffice it to say- several people were working behind the scenes to resolve the problem.....

Plenty of lessons to be learned here. Any suggestion that all the blame rests with Charl seems a little off base to me. If I was Dogleg I would reflecting on how I should have handled the matter differently too. Seems to me there is responsibility enough to go around on this one.

After dealing with these damned computers and other modern electronics I'd never blame a person for something like this. When things are pending, or important. You can nearly always count on something falling apart, burning up, or just plain stops working. I have a saying about such things, you figure out what it means.
"NFF"
I'm mighty proud of all the fine folks that got involved, or tried to on this deal. Regardless of what happened to cause it. I'm looking forward to learning what it was that happened and strongly feel it was some type equipment failure, long before I'd think Charl dropped the ball. I doubt he did. We'll see.

Sure am glad dogleg's getting to hunt and getting some of his wished for game in the bag. Has it been posted yet who he's hunting with? Andrew? OR did they connect with Charl and get him fixed up?

Thank you,
George

quote:

Originally posted by jdollar:
just so everyone knows, there was a behind-the scenes individual who is a member here but doesn't want credit for his efforts. he actually put Andrew in contact with Charl because he had Charls' most recent sat phone numbers when no one else did. i am not at liberty so say more unless this individual choose to come forward but suffice it to say- several people were working behind the scenes to resolve the problem.....

This behind-the-scenes individual was, I believe, actually responsible for Charl contacting me from his cell phone! [Note: I never once succeeded in getting through to Charl's satellite number, even after getting the last digit correct as a "2", and not a "3" as UEG posted.] Fact is, although I tried many times, it was Charl who contacted me first! I can only imagine the enormous telephone bill this other AR member ran up to call various police stations and other in Mozambique to set up roadblocks and search parties to get hold of Charl and convey the message that he should contact me. Hats off to him! [Incidentally he is no longer active as a hunting outfitter or PH - preferring the quiet life of being a farmer!]

Just to set another matter straight: During the two (partial) days that I sort of "looked after" Dogleg, he carried all the costs incurred on his behalf! He has most definitely thanked me and now owes nothing as I'm not out of pocket at all for helping him. Neither does Charl owe me anything, well an invitation to share a beer at a convenient time will be just fine!

I wish I could contact Dogleg or Charl to get a bit of a preview of the hunt report. Having I've spoken to and got to know the actual owner of the property where Charl hunts, I have no doubt Dogleg will have a good hunt! His mental attitude towards the hunt was most certainly such that he is most likely to enjoy it whatever happens.

I look forward to both Charl and Dogleg being in touch and with access to Internet and cellphones again.

I am not trying to shape anyone else's opinion; I gave mine and that is truly how I feel.

We have seen the best of many people on this thread stepping up to help a fellow hunter, but I would be lying if I said it caused me to instill any confidence in the actual outfitter.

There are a lot of people on this thread standing up for a friend, and that is fine and should be expected. I have voiced my opinion and will not post on this thread again.

Unfortunately, I copied and posted the entire email that Charl had personally sent to me which included his Satellite telephone number and when to try and reach him in Moz. If anything in that information was incorrect, it would have been due to Charl's mistake in posting the number, and that may be the reason that I was not able to reach him on my Satellite phone after two days of trying.

quote:

Originally posted by Use Enough Gun:
Unfortunately, I copied and posted the entire email that Charl had personally sent to me which included his Satellite telephone number and when to try and reach him in Moz. If anything in that information was incorrect, it would have been due to Charl's mistake in posting the number, and that may be the reason that I was not able to reach him on my Satellite phone after two days of trying.

UEG Please do not feel bad or offended. I got exactly the same recorded message every time i used the number, with a last "2" or a last "3".

As far as I'm concerned there is something else "wrong"! We will soon find out, I hope!

I suggest that we read what Charl has to say after the hunt and then take our own conclusions.
Again i reiterate my opinion , Charl seems to be a ok guy and i will formulate my judgment after i read his statement here in AR.
I have no reason to believe that this situation was caused by his negligence and i am sure he will get it sorted put pretty soon.
And at the end Dogleg will have a wonderful hunt .

Andrew, i have been emailing our mutual friend about this topic. he is no linger in the outfitting business and i asked if he missed the hunting. his reply was yes, especially sitting around the campfire at night with sundowners- but he did not miss dealing with corrupt government officials! knowing a very little bit about what happened, i can certainly understand... at least things seem to have worked out for Dogleg, thanks to yours, his and probably others efforts

Just got into cell reception. I did not read through all th stuff but just wanted to post a short note to say that we had some serious problems. Mike did get to us a day late and he did get his buffalo. I will the hunt part for him when he feels ready to do so. I will only be back in SA on the 12th of october for a propper reply. Save to say that me and Mike had a massive communication problem due to emails. I was deep in the bush without internet but we got it worked out in the end. A special word of thanks to andrew mclarren, johan strassheim, vaughn and of course Dogleg for being a understanding man. Thats all for now. From cau cau lodg on the zambesi, cheers for now!

quote:

Originally posted by jdollar:
Andrew, i have been emailing our mutual friend about this topic. he is no linger in the outfitting business and i asked if he missed the hunting. his reply was yes, especially sitting around the campfire at night with sundowners- but he did not miss dealing with corrupt government officials! knowing a very little bit about what happened, i can certainly understand... at least things seem to have worked out for Dogleg, thanks to yours, his and probably others efforts

I'm not the person involved but I agree COMPLETELY with his sentiments!

There it is from the man himself. Just what I posted and figured had happened.
"Something fouled up to keep them from communicating". NOT Charl neglecting a client as many claimed. Always pays to stand back and watch until the real details come in.
George

quote:

posted document.write('<nobr>'+ myTimeZone('Tue, 08 Oct 2013 23:28:00 GMT-0700', '09 October 2013 11:28')+'</nobr>');09 October 2013 11:2809 October 2013 11:28Hide PostThere it is from the man himself. Just what I posted and figured had happened. "Something fouled up to keep them from communicating". NOT Charl neglecting a client as many claimed. Always pays to stand back and watch until the real details come in.George

But "real details" (facts) screw up a good kangaroo court hanging.

quote:

"Something fouled up to keep them from communicating". NOT Charl neglecting a client as many claimed. Always pays to stand back and watch until the real details come in.George

Oh, shit, sorry Charl, I didn't realize "Something" was involved, my bad.

The client arrived only a day late and still got his buffalo ... sounds to me like the operator is rationalizing ... but you can't rationalize away the anxiety and stress that this situation caused the client. I for one would like to hear that the client has been compensated for this mess and, assuming the client is OK with disclosure, what form the compensation took.

Separately, the operator owes Andrew and others for bailing him out of the doo-doo. Let's hear about that as well. Had it not been for them, the client would have grounds for a pretty hefty lawsuit.

Gee a lot of folks on here expect everything to work out perfect every time? I wouldn't want to have you for a client!
Sometimes things don't get communicated correctly (I have been married twice so I know this as fact). So What? You make the best of it. Any endeavor is an adventure, sometimes things don't go your way and if they don't, what are you going to do? Have a coronary? Trash someone else? Cry foul because your trophies all didn't make SCI minimums?
Just to give an example of how great email works, I received an email last week that had been sent in August. We both use the same email provider. Who know why an email took 5 weeks to show up in my in box? Whiskey tango foxtrot, stuff happens. Grow up.

+1

quote:

Originally posted by Blacktailer:
Gee a lot of folks on here expect everything to work out perfect every time? I wouldn't want to have you for a client!
Sometimes things don't get communicated correctly (I have been married twice so I know this as fact). So What? You make the best of it. Any endeavor is an adventure, sometimes things don't go your way and if they don't, what are you going to do? Have a coronary? Trash someone else? Cry foul because your trophies all didn't make SCI minimums?
Just to give an example of how great email works, I received an email last week that had been sent in August. We both use the same email provider. Who know why an email took 5 weeks to show up in my in box? Whiskey tango foxtrot, stuff happens. Grow up.

I don't believe in stuff happens when your paying over $10,000

Rather than continue on and on with the unsubstantiated finger pointing and speculation, which is nothing more than an absolute waste of time, let's all let both Dogleg and Charl address the issue. I know that we will hear from both of them in the near future. Dogleg is home and Charl will be returning from Moz after the 19th of this month. And unfortunately yes, stuff does happen when you are paying over 10K. If you've been on enough safaris or hunting trips around the world you will eventually have a cock up of some sort. And not one of you knows exactly what the cock up was in this instance.

hell, we don't even know if there was a cock up. after all, you are dealing with communications to and from a remote part of Africa. shit does indeed happen in such situations.

Thank you. Amen!

I joined AR to learn about hunting Africa. I learned what I needed to know, at least at that point, but it seems like everyone gets all pissed off about anything that is not directly in line with his or her beliefs. It's sad.

quote:

Originally posted by DCS Member:
I joined AR to learn about hunting Africa. I learned what I needed to know, at least at that point, but it seems like everyone gets all pissed off about anything that is not directly in line with his or her beliefs. It's sad.

I should quite this in many threads, but I'm going to bed and waiting for the new Wilbur Smith to hit our side of the pond.

I have stayed with this tread because I wish to hear from dogleg and from Charl, and I want to know if dogleg would do it again because he had a great hunt.

It's Africa and emails are only reliable and timely to a point.

What we know is that there was some kind of communication problem and at this point, that is really all we know about what happened. We also know that some fine individuals took ownership of the issues and tried to sort them out to the benefit of the hunter.

People who insist that everything that doesn't go perfectly must be someone at fault and that he or someone must be thrown under the bus tend to bore me. Making up one's mind absent all of the facts bores me as well.

Absent the facts as will be presented by the hunting client and the hunt provider in due time are worth waiting for. Passing judgment now or even after the facts are known is probably nonproductive as long as dogleg is satisfied. Playing the blame game without full disclosure of the facts and circumstances is nothing more than an armchair game of mental masturbation in my view and serves no constructive purpose at this point.

It is, however, and interesting insight into human behavior.

quote:

Indi
one of us

posted 27 September 2013 04:26 Hide Post

Very strange the outfiter did not inform you about final leg.
If you are flying to Beira airport from Joburg without the proper papers , i mean rifle permit taken care in advance , you will have a problem !
Anyway if you need any assistance while there PM me as i have a good friend that will sort you out for sure.
Good luck.

quote:

Dogleg
I have tried to contact Charl for you. If you are conidering staying home, dont.
There are plenty of ways to get into Charls camp so unless he is dead you will have a hunt.

If you get here and dont have any joy give me a call I can get you into Charls camp within 48 hours.

Now get on your plane I am going to PM you my contact details
Cheers
Ian


Specialist Outfitters and Big Game Hounds

quote:

Mike, I have sent you a "I'll be your South African Friend" message as a PM, so you have my contact numbers. I can at least meet you at the airport and help you get your rifle into South Africa. We can then go somewhere to in comfort sort out the logistics of the next step of your trip to get to Charl's camp.

I've also attempted to contact Charl or Infinito Safaris. Have spoken to some former Infinito PH, but not yet to quite the right guy.

I agree with Ian - it should be very easy to get you to Charl's camp in a short time, but if you are stuck at the airport without transport and a lot of luggage and a rifle and maybe without a working cellphone .....????

In good hunting.


Andrew McLaren
Professional Hunter and Hunting Outfitter since 1974.

quote:

hi guys

just cameback from the kalahari andrew dogleg any problems come up to my ranch lets sort a hunt out vat my place i know charl personally he will make good but i have 12000 acres with every planes game andrew know my number if i can help.

luan

quote:

Charl is A good guy I am sure there must be some kind of misunderstanding, Dogleg, Andrew, Luan he is more than welcome to stay at my place free of charge as well until this is sorted I am 4 1/2 hours drive from the JHB in Alldays. BEST of luck let me know if there is anything we can help with.


Phillip du Plessis

if you can read this entire thread and these aren't the things that jump out at you, you either need professional help or have an axe to grind.

Damned impressive.

I am pretty certain that I am in need of professional help. That being said, I would just like the give Andrew a big thumbs up. That is the most important takeaway from this thread. There are are people here that will help you and give solid advice.

Jeff

quote:

Gee a lot of folks on here expect everything to work out perfect every time? I wouldn't want to have you for a client!

No need to worry mate. If you think it's OK for the PH to abandon his client at JNB without the appropriate paperwork or logistics to get him to Moz, you won't have very many clients at all.

I am back in SA now.
Vaughn sorry about the typo but I was back on Friday.
This matter needs a proper, structured reply from me, and I do not have time now. I pick up three hunters this afternoon that is starting Buffalo hunts with us in the morning. So this will only get attention after the 25'th. From my side in any case. I believe Dogleg will post his report when he is ready.
As to the folks that helped.
Andrew is getting a Bushpig hunt from me as a gratuity. I spoke to him today on the phone expressing my immense gratitude in his selfless act. Him and his wife will hopefully join me in December for that funfair.
The other guys (and there are many) will get their beers and steaks as promised. They know who they are.
Russ, you do not know me as a man or as a outfitter, and probably never will. To even think thay I willfully and knowingly left a client in the lurch as you suggested is very clear proof of that, but as with many things on this forum, you are of course entitled to your opinion, just like some other uninformed hearsay fanatics here.

We are waiting to hear how it is that everyone had to drop what they were doing to save your butt, but you can't take five minutes to explain yourself. You are right about one thing though ..."you do not know me as a man or as a outfitter, and probably never will"

Russ, you are right about posting.

I wanted more than 5 minutes to explain myself, but it looks as if I just have to get this out now, even though I do not have the answer myself yet.

The simple truth is this. There are two emails that Mike never got from me. The last email get got from me was to say that his flight schedule from JNB-Maputo-Quelimanne got changed. Mike was waiting for me to send him the new details and he never got it. This is the reason for his side of this fiasco.

My side of this report goes as follow:
I was hunting non stop until two days before we left for Mozambique. I checked with Erika (office) on a consistent basis if we had news on the changed flights. We struggled a lot to get an answer from LAM (Moz airline service).

We got the answer on the 9'th of September when I was in Johannesburg. I promptly send Mike and email saying that his flights only changed 15 minutes in the end and attached his new itinerary. He never got that email. I believe him.

I left for Mozambique the following day.
When we got to our camp we found out that our manager there stole EVERYTHING of value. Fuel bunker, generators, beds, shower heads and taps, linnen….everything. WE did not know this before our arrival. We ran around like headless chickens for a week to get a camp set up and in working order. We managed, but the result of this problem was that I did not think for a second longer about Mike not maybe getting my emails.

On the 18'th of September I was in Quelimane the last time and send him a follow up email with some offers for other game species and asking if he got the new flight info. This was the last time I had internet access. Mike never got any of these emails. I will in the end of this writ explain what lessons I learned from this.

We were oblivious to what was happening here on AR and I continued hunting with another client. He was dropped off the day before Mike was suppose to arrive. Deon, that works for me waited in Quelimanne for Mike for two days. In Maputo Raimundo was waiting for Mike as well (he had to clear the firearms).

This was the first I heard of the problems, when Raimundo send me a sms on Sat2 to say Mike was not there. I then started phoning around, and eventually got hold of an old AR member who gave me the whole nine yards. I got in contact with Andrew and Mike and we got it sorted.

One big mess up on my side. I topped up the two satellite phones we use before I left. I never thought to check if their sim cards were still valid, and the service provider never helped me right or pointed it out. SAT1 (the number that was listed on my email autoreply) expired on the 25'th so no one had the back up number to get hold of me. This second satellite phone (SAT2) only have one digit changed at the end of the number from SAT1, but if you did not know you would not know.

I did find his emails in MY spam box, but how they got there baffles me. It is not the spam box on my laptop, but the server.
What I can say is that me and Mike had email problems earlier in the year as well, but got it sorted. For some or other reason emails from me to him landed in his spam box. The replies always had *****SPAM***** written in the subject line, why neither him nor me knows.
My service provider is now trying to find out what the problem is.
So what is the answer ? I honestly do not know at this point in time. I bet you it had something to do with email security or something.
The following lessons was learned out of this:
1. Never assume a client got an email - phone him a week before his intended departure if you do not hear from him.
2. If it is an AR client, and he does not respond to his emails, post on AR. This was probably my biggest mistake. We were so busy running around trying to sort things out, I forgot to check AR. But then again, Mike only posted his post after I was out of internet reception.
3. Me and Erika both goes to Mozambique, as do everyone that works for us. So we do not have a “back” office function. This is now being rectified.
4. I will never book a flight for a client again. I tried to help Mike by getting him a cheap ticket as I know how LAM operates. His first ticket we got quoted on was over $1,000.00. I got it in the end for $665.00. This was the first time I did this and the last. Someone right fully pointed out here that I am not a travel agent, and he could not be more right.

I am sorry for the inconvenience this caused. I am grateful for everyone helping out, it showed a lot of character, which I already knew you had.

The unsung hero in this fiasco is Andrew Mclarren. I offered him a weekend hunt with me for a Bushpig , and he gladly excepted. Him and his wife will hopefully visit us in December.

I did pay for Mikes flight he missed, he did not pay for it.

Mike killed his Buffalo. He will post a report when he feels like doing so.

I am not trying to down play this. I made some mistakes, and I did not follow up as usual because I simply could not. People that knows me also know that this fiasco is out of character for me and my business.

That is the reason why they jumped in and helped. I offered my excuse to the person that matters, and he excepted.
Me and him are on par at the moment, and I have offered further recourse to him, the details of which is privileged in my opinion.
I have said this to many of you around the campfire with me. Someday something will go wrong for me here on AR, and the dogs of war are waiting like demons with fire in their mouths to jump on it. So, if this my turn, so be it.
I will of course reply to decent questions, please just take note that I will not have internet reception for the next ten days from today.