I note with interest that two of the most revered ele hunters around today (Carter and Charlton) are moving up to .600 NE's.

I wonder what sort of message that sends to the crowd that don't believe in the "stopping power" of certain calibers under a charge situation.

My interpretation is that when one hunts ele professionally, bigger just may be better.

Pondoro was always right.

That bodes well for the 600 OK's and 577's

A .458 is better than a .375, a .600 is better than a .458, a howitzer is better than a .600.

In 13 months I intend to use a .458 to hunt elephant in Botswana and do not anticipate any problems.

It seems to me that comparing a client hunters rifle to a ph's rifle is apples to oranges. The two people and rifles have different purposes.

quote:

Originally posted by Scott King:
The two people and rifles have different purposes.

One is to cleanly kill and stop a charge and the other is to cleanly kill and stop a charge. I do not see that the rifles have different purposes.

Buzz is getting a .500 NE, not a .600 NE.

quote:

Originally posted by Scott King:
A .458 is better than a .375, a .600 is better than a .458, a howitzer is better than a .600.

In 13 months I intend to use a .458 to hunt elephant in Botswana and do not anticipate any problems.

It seems to me that comparing a client hunters rifle to a ph's rifle is apples to oranges. The two people and rifles have different purposes.

I would have thought that "the two people and rifles" have the same purpose.....ie kill the ele as quickly and painlessly as possible.

My point is that some posters are of the opinion that it is not what you hit "them" with, but where you hit them. Whilst this is true, sometimes things go pear shaped and when that happens the, smart money seems to prefer stopping power over pin point accuracy.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by Scott King:
The two people and rifles have different purposes.

One is to cleanly kill and stop a charge and the other is to cleanly kill and stop a charge. I do not see that the rifles have different purposes.

Buzz is getting a .500 NE, not a .600 NE.

I stand corrected on the caliber of Mr. Charltons rifle. It does not however change the point I was making.

There is however another well known PH, (I won't mention his name as it makes a lot of posters froth at the mouth) who also uses a .600 NE.

The fact is that both of these highly reputable, ethical and experienced PH's are moving up in caliber.

I find it interesting that they choose the .600 over the .577 when you have reports coming out about .577 out penetrating .600. The .577 isn't exactly giving up a lot of ground power wise either and they are lighter weight.

Brett

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Brett Adam Barringer:
I find it interesting that they choose the .600 over the .577 when you have reports coming out about .577 out penetrating .600. The .577 isn't exactly giving up a lot of ground power wise either and they are lighter weight.

Brett[/QUOT

I guess that the .600 penetrates "enough" with the added advantage of having a bit more grunt.

Mr. Carter no doubt has his reasons, I am sure as hell not going to question them.

Would not penetration be mostly on the bullet design? Solid, Softness of expanding bullets, nose profile, velocity and dare I say twist rate.

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
Would not penetration be mostly on the bullet design? Solid, Softness of expanding bullets, nose profile, velocity and dare I say twist rate.

Certainly, but all else being equal the lesser surface area of the .577 would out penetrate.

Brett

quote:

Originally posted by Brett Adam Barringer:

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
Would not penetration be mostly on the bullet design? Solid, Softness of expanding bullets, nose profile, velocity and dare I say twist rate.

Certainly, but all else being equal the lesser surface area of the .577 would out penetrate.

Brett

If everything else is held constant, including bullet weight, then yes, the projectile of lesser caliber with smaller frontal surface area will out penetrate the larger caliber projectile but not because of the lesser surface area but rather due to sectional density which, given bullet weights that are equal, is inherently higher with the lesser caliber.

quote:

Originally posted by Chobe Bushbuck:

quote:

Originally posted by Brett Adam Barringer:

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
Would not penetration be mostly on the bullet design? Solid, Softness of expanding bullets, nose profile, velocity and dare I say twist rate.

Certainly, but all else being equal the lesser surface area of the .577 would out penetrate.

Brett

If everything else is held constant, including bullet weight, then yes, the projectile of lesser caliber with smaller frontal surface area will out penetrate the larger caliber projectile but not because of the lesser surface area but rather due to sectional density which, given bullet weights that are equal, is inherently higher with the lesser caliber.

I could swear thats exactly what he just said?
CW

quote:

Originally posted by Chuck1911:

quote:

Originally posted by Chobe Bushbuck:

quote:

Originally posted by Brett Adam Barringer:

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
Would not penetration be mostly on the bullet design? Solid, Softness of expanding bullets, nose profile, velocity and dare I say twist rate.

Certainly, but all else being equal the lesser surface area of the .577 would out penetrate.

Brett

If everything else is held constant, including bullet weight, then yes, the projectile of lesser caliber with smaller frontal surface area will out penetrate the larger caliber projectile but not because of the lesser surface area but rather due to sectional density which, given bullet weights that are equal, is inherently higher with the lesser caliber.

I could swear thats exactly what he just said?
CW

I don't think that is what he said at all. His statement is attributing increased penetration to lesser surface area which is simply not true, everything else being equal it is the sectional density of the projectiles and not their surface areas which has the greatest bearing on penetration.

quote:

I note with interest that two of the most revered ele hunters around today (Carter and Charlton) are moving up to .600 NE's.

I remember a time when .600's were virtually obsolete. (They're certainly obsolete with my budget!) I wonder what the "Absolutely Positively Gotta Stop that Elephant Now!" cartridge was during that time?

sectional density is higher with lesser surface area when you take the term surface area(used loosely,I think) and call it frontal area.

So, same weight bullets, one short and fat, one long and slim. Higher sectional density goes to the long,slim bullet with less surface area(frontal area)

The math works the same your way and his from my seat. But, if you tear his statement to shreds grammatically, you will find the surface area to be the same. I am quite sure the intent I got from his statement was the same as yours.
CW

....OH, and I think sectional density is formulated by dividing the surface area(frontal area)by a given weight. Yes?

Visualize this:

classroom full of kids. Teacher asks a question.
Gets several wrong answer. Finally, over in the corner little ISS is waving his hand like a semaphore man on crack. Teacher always worries what ISS will say. Finally, she calls on him.
"All right ISS, why would a PH be more inclined to carry a .577 or .600 than a client since both want to drop the Elephant cleanly with one shot?".

ISS, beaming, says "Because the flippin' PH may need to do it at six to ten feet!".

Class dismissed.

Rich

LMAOOOO

It means that Buzz and Ivan are getting old, have been scared by one too many elephant, and are contemplating their own mortality.



It also means that clients can't shoot!

Unlike a few hunters posting here that have shot multiple elephant and have learned the double rifle disipline most clients on there first or second elephant hunt are probably better served with a 375, 416 Rem or 458 WM that they shoot well than a monster double. More than one PH has told me that a novice with a new double gives them pause and it would scare the heck out of me.

Mark

Same solid bullet nose profile, Same SD, equivalent % gain in velocity to bullet diameter how would one out penetrate the other?

For many who have not or never will hunt DG, and to many of my friends who have and still do hunt DG. Knowing how to shoot and not think where I have to place the shot.
Buss had a rifle malfunction last year I think and Ivan had a few very close encounter with tempo.
My first buf and ele hunt in Zim. We were pursuing a herd of 20+ bulls in the jess. When we closed in on the bulls I loaded a round in my 458 Lott and off we go. As the distances narrowed I checked and re checked my bolt to make sure my rifle was loaded. Then my mind started to wonder is this bullet really big enough, and then I thought did the firing pin brake after the last shot on the target range.
These thoughts never enterd my mind while hunting any other game animal.
But shooting enough gun in more important and being able to shoot it. This comes with practice, and this I do with my double 450#2. Love to compete with it against friends on the range. Pursuing groundhogs with a double. They dont run away after being hit.
Shooting a 600 is a hoot and the 500 also. But hang on for a ride.

Buzz good luck and good shooting with the boomer and Ivan, Jeff convinced you..

I do not want the minimum caliber rifle in my hands if something goes wrong.


Mike

Great post retreever. Looking forward to my time when I get to hunt cape buff and brown bear with my 500 Jeff. In the meantime the elk, deer, prarire dogs and jack rabbits will be dodging 570g A-Frames ...



Chuck

Well let me say this...

I have fired double rifles in 9,3x74R, 375 H&H, 450/400, 450 3 1/4", 500/450, 450No2, 500/465, 470, 475No2, 500, 577, and 600.

I have KILLED elephants with the 9,3x74R, 450/400, and the 450 No2.

I have shot several elephants at 6 yards or less...

I consider the 9,3 and also the 375 as "light for elephants". Perfectly good for properly placed brain shots, light for body shots.

I killed an elephant at 5 yards with one brain shot from my 9,3x74R.

I have no problems hunting elephants, brain or body shots with a 450/400, 450, or a 470 bore.

For ME, I feel the bigger bores, above 475, might be a little to slow for the second shot...

Actually inside 6 yards, I have only needed additional shots once, and in truth even the 600 Nitro would most likely have worked....


But, I have made shots with my 450 No2, on cape buff and plains game stumbled upon, while hunting elephants that I would not want to try with a bigger double...

Bottom line is, I CAN shoot my 450 No2 like a 22 LR...

I cannot do that with the BIGGER guns...

But again, I am a CLIENT, NOT a PH.

When at the Harrisburg Outfitters show a couple weeks ago, I was wandering down an isle, and came face-to-face with none other than Mark Sullivan! As is was rather late and the show traffic was slow, I spent 15 or 20 minutes with Mark discussing different things about Africa, hunting, rifles, etc. He told me he is back to his 577, and that it was "crazy" for a hunter (client) to consider a 600 NE, due to the rifle's weight and recoil. He thought something in the 450/400 to 470 range was much more reasonable for a hunter. I was invited on a filmed hunt in October in Tanzania with another hunter, 2 Buff and 7 Plains Game for $25K. Actually not bad!

quote:

Originally posted by Biebs:
When at the Harrisburg Outfitters show a couple weeks ago, I was wandering down an isle, and came face-to-face with none other than Mark Sullivan! As is was rather late and the show traffic was slow, I spent 15 or 20 minutes with Mark discussing different things about Africa, hunting, rifles, etc. He told me he is back to his 577, and that it was "crazy" for a hunter (client) to consider a 600 NE, due to the rifle's weight and recoil. He thought something in the 450/400 to 470 range was much more reasonable for a hunter. I was invited on a filmed hunt in October in Tanzania with another hunter, 2 Buff and 7 Plains Game for $25K. Actually not bad!

Well Biebs, did you take him up in the offer? Thats a damn good deal and it'd put an AR regular in a hunt with Mark... Beibs could then come back and give us all a FULL report so that the dreaded MS saga can be told in here in 1st person and can put the nay-sayers out to pasture.. Doubtful but hopeful!!

NE 450 #2,

valid points, made by a man who has "Been there, done that, got the T-shirt..".

One question: any of those shots taken at an Elephant charging you at under fifteen feet with the smaller rifles? To me, in that situation, Big Doggy's Four Bore would be about right!

Rich

I know quite a few elephants have been shot with a 375 bolt action rifle. But big double rifles are just fun to shoot. If I shot a lot of elephants, I would buy the biggest double I could comfortably shoot, and could afford.

Well, wait.

Statistically, at least, the "...absolutely, positively..." elephant gun is a 7x57. So long as Bell is doing the shooting.

I've heard people stay that a 470ne actually penetrates heavy bone better than a 600ne? Is this true?

Let me be clear at the beginning - I have never been to Africa or hunted elephant or any DG. But I have been charged by Indian elephants on a few occasions and one was a close shave of about 5 feet in a jeep.

Now....The PH has hunted elephants hundreds of times. Probably culled hundreds, faced scores of charges and stopped a few. The PH is the LIFE insurance for all situations and worst case scenarios. His rifle needs to take care of ALL those variable situations. The client has probably never hunted elephant and never faced a charge. The client will in most cases not hunt elephant ever again. So the client's rifle needs to be capable of killing elephant effectively in normal hunting situations and does not have to cover all other variable scenarios. The rifle has to be one that the hunter is very confident with, can shoot well, instinctively and reload quickly.

That makes the two rifles very different in my book. Right now I am still dreaming & planning my first DG rifle and my first African safari. The rifle will be a bolt action - either my Simson 9.3X62 (for Buffalo) with lots of practice using good bullets or another Mauser 98 in 375, 404 or 416. Again lots of practice.

If I can make some good money in the next 12 months (the last 2 years of economic chaos has been crazy), I may be able to afford the Evans 450 NE that I have seen and handled. I would learn to reload for that and practice a lot over the next 2 years before taking it to Africa....I can dream can't I....

Excellent posts above, from a variety of points of view and varying levels of experience. These discussions seem to bring out the best aspects of this forum. Those knowledgeable writer/hunters who took the time to collect the historical data on who shot what and on how many elephant support the proposition that a caliber at or near .500 NE is an excellent combination of penetration, frontal area, knock down power, handling, and overall shootability. Sten Cedergren shot many elephant with two .470 doubles until he had one too many confrontations at a very close distance, then he chose a .500 NE. Much of his shooting was both offensive and defensive, but mostly very close and confrontational.

The .500 NE is known to kill far more convincingly than it is described, ballistically, on paper. I've found that to be true on many buffalo, elephant and other game. The effect of the .450-400 all the way to the .475 No. 2 is basically the same, relatively. The .500 is different, on game. It is very shootable, even for plains game, yet will save one's life in a pinch. That sounds like the perfect elephant rifle. I am obviously a fan.

The .600? That same historical data is virtually empty of anyone who regularly shot it well and used it often. There are many drawbacks, only one of which is the mental preparation necessary to handle the recoil and learn to squeeze the trigger like a .30-06. Most people cannot do it. I believe only the scorned one has really used it well and extensively as a PH over the past 15 years. There is a reason for that. It is a beast.

Buzz and Ivan are great shots and skilled handlers of rifles in close quarters. They can make that same skill set work with a caliber upgrade. Many hunters cannot. But it is interesting to ponder.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by MJines:
One is to cleanly kill and stop a charge and the other is to cleanly kill and stop a charge. I do not see that the rifles have different purposes.
QUOTE]

I am under the impression that the client hunters rifle is to be used to cleanly kill the hunted game and the ph's rifle is to be used to back up or add to the clients shot. Unless hunting with Mark Sullivan I am not aware of a ph consistently using their rifle to take the first shot and kill the clients trophy. Therefore, if the clients rifle is to be discharged not only first, but usually the only rifle intended to be discharged, I believe the clients rifle and the ph's rifle are meant for different purposes.

I have no intention of being on the receiving end of a charge so I do not see the need for anything other than a .458 for my hunt. Yes I am aware a charge is possible but I also believe its not probable if not asked for. I intend to practice with my .458 bolt gun much the same as I have with my smaller rifles and hope for the best, putting most of my faith in my own and my ph's ability and the final percentage in God.

I am not of the opinion that most elephant hunting is undertaken with the intent of provoking a charge and therefore needing a point blank stopping rifle.

As always I fully recognize my limited education on this and every other issue and will happily stand corrected.

I did notice that with over 500 views and better than 30 replies, none of the african ph's that frequent this forum have said " Heavens yes, client elephant hunters should use a .500 or .600 whatever!"

Scott,

I believe the original question raised or suggested was about the meaning of the caliber upgrade choice for two noted professionals who are known to hunt elephant quite aggressively many days each year. But I agree with you that most hunting clients should choose a double rifle below .500 NE and in a bolt action, .45 caliber or under will address most every situation for most hunting clients. If the hunting client's style or desire is more confrontational, a well-handled larger caliber provides a better margin of error -- and everyone will miss the brain on a frontal shot sooner or later.

Your point about your .458 managing your needs is spot on. Have fun, shoot it well and kill it dead.

I can only speak for myself.

When hunting elephant and cape buff with my 9,3x74R, I did feel it was a little light for the job....

But It killed my biggest cape buff, in horn and body, and an elephant at 5 yards, both with one shot...

When I used the 450/400 3 1/4" on cape buff and elephant I never felt that I was undergunned in any way...

My 450 No2 is MY Holy Grail. It fits me better than ANY rifle I have ever shot...

On my first Safari my PH called it THE HAMMER OF THOR...

From coyotes to elephants, from 3 yards to 188 yards, it has never let me down...

While hunting cape buff or elephant, I have "stumbled" into trophy quality plains game, and with the decision of the PH taken same...

I might not be able to shoot a 500, 577, or a 600, as well as my 450 No2 in the same circumstances...

I do know that with the 450 No2 I "ain't scared of nothing".


Of course in truth, only two things scare me... Women and the Police...

I've always read that you have to shoot with greater than one can handle efficiently. If you can handle a 600 NE precisely, do not hesitate to use that rifle.

quote:

Originally posted by Chuck1911:

quote:

Originally posted by Chobe Bushbuck:

quote:

Originally posted by Brett Adam Barringer:

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
Would not penetration be mostly on the bullet design? Solid, Softness of expanding bullets, nose profile, velocity and dare I say twist rate.

Certainly, but all else being equal the lesser surface area of the .577 would out penetrate.

Brett

If everything else is held constant, including bullet weight, then yes, the projectile of lesser caliber with smaller frontal surface area will out penetrate the larger caliber projectile but not because of the lesser surface area but rather due to sectional density which, given bullet weights that are equal, is inherently higher with the lesser caliber.

I could swear thats exactly what he just said?
CW

+1

Brett

I prefer my .500 A-Square bolt action rifle firing 570 grain bullets at 2,500 fps to any caliber or rifle mentioned so far in this thread.

I used to use 600 grain loads at 2,300 fps in my 500. But I have found that they are not as stunningly effective as the 570s at 2,500.

Of course, others may choose to differ.

If I were a PH, I would no doubt use a double rifle, most likely a .500 3" N.E.

Two fast and powerful shots can be critical when cleaning up someone else's mess.

One point we're missing is that oftentimes, the choice of rifle for a PH, especially one of noted reputation and therefore strong endorsement value, is determined by factors other than pure preference in rifle selection. Whether the PH is in an endorsement contract or not, the value to a gun manufacturer of having a noted PH appear in person, and in the various filmed hunts, carrying a rifle of their brand and in a caliber they'd like to promote, is a powerful message, and plays a part in a PH's use of a rifle.

quote:

Originally posted by ovny:
I've always read that you have to shoot with greater than one can handle efficiently. If you can handle a 600 NE precisely, do not hesitate to use that rifle.

I am not sure I understand your post exactly. Are you saying that you should use a rifle a bit heavier that the rifle you are comfortable with or just go the the limit of what you can handle? I would tend to go on the lighter side rather than the heavy side. I like big guns, but I like to feel comfortable with my rifle, and I usually know when it is too much rifle for me. I use a 375 for most of my hunting in Africa, but I like the 416 too.