Well, I have the answer for you all on why Ivan chose the 600 over the 577. Quote by Ivan Carter taken from the thread about losing his Heym in the river.

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why 600 over 577 ...no reason just wanted to try the 600.

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Originally posted by Biebs:
the value to a gun manufacturer of having a noted PH appear in person, and in the various filmed hunts, carrying a rifle of their brand and in a caliber they'd like to promote, is a powerful message, and plays a part in a PH's use of a rifle.

It is a powerful message because people are so easily influenced.

Having a PH in front of your name means you are an excellent shot, and never miss, quite apart from the reality that they indeed may be a crappy shot.

No matter how many flubbed brain shots are witnessed in the various DVD's the PH must be by definition a crack shot and all around nice guy.

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Originally posted by RBHunt:

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Originally posted by ovny:
I've always read that you have to shoot with greater than one can handle efficiently. If you can handle a 600 NE precisely, do not hesitate to use that rifle.

I am not sure I understand your post exactly. Are you saying that you should use a rifle a bit heavier that the rifle you are comfortable with or just go the the limit of what you can handle? I would tend to go on the lighter side rather than the heavy side. I like big guns, but I like to feel comfortable with my rifle, and I usually know when it is too much rifle for me. I use a 375 for most of my hunting in Africa, but I like the 416 too.

I believe a fair translation is that it is OK to use a bigger bore rifle if you can handle the recoil, and in fact a good idea to use the biggest bore rifle the recoil of which you can handle.

JPK

I gotta say that, imo, there is just too much talk of a PH's rifle choice having different crtiteria.

That is bunkum, imo. Yes, the PH will have to clean up some client created messes, but when the s--t hits the fan, client screw up a precursor or not, it is up to the client to save his own butt. When he is able to save his own butt, he may end up saving the PH's or the trackers'. That comes with shooting, standing ground, etc, etc,... and choosing a proper rifle.

When things go bad, the PH may, or may not, have a shot... The PH may, or may not, connect on that shot. He is human, and so as fallable as any of the rest of us.

JPK

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Originally posted by John Frederick:
I note with interest that two of the most revered ele hunters around today (Carter and Charlton) are moving up to .600 NE's.

I wonder what sort of message that sends to the crowd that don't believe in the "stopping power" of certain calibers under a charge situation.

My interpretation is that when one hunts ele professionally, bigger just may be better.

Pondoro was always right.

I prefer an Abrams

people ,
its simply good business for a a gun manufacturer to try and get his guns into as many phs hands as possible- and to that end many are happy to extend a "dealer" price top Phs and even give them payment terms ..

then , just like anyone else its up to the ph to make his decision based on his knowledge and preferences of the choices ..

there are many things to consider , the first on the list is usually price , but like anything in life if a decision is based just on price there will be some aspects of feature and finish that will be compromised.

then there is functionality - here are few things that are very important

intercepting sears
safety mechanism
ejectors
overall fit
machine regulated vs hand regulated
quality of engraving - machine or hand
balance


basically all double rifles start at the same price ...a lump of steel that costs x and a lump of wood that costs x - there after the number of manhours that goes into the creating of the final product is what determines the price , a giant CNC machine can produce a rifle far more cost effectively than a team of gunmakers doing it by hand ..

holland and holland has london mainstreet rent , british costs of labour and all done by hand small annual sales numbers and thus , the final costs to the company of producing a double rifle indeed is far more than anywhere else in the world , add to that a famous name and you have a rifle thats very expensive , they dont make much money on their rifles though because of the manhours ...

Maybe significant of nothing -but my PH told me that the 375 was used in culling elephants (at the request of the Ministry of Parks and Game,as it was known back in the 90s in Zimbabwe)It seems that since elephants are very "family minded" that trying to shoot an elephant in front of relatives could be very dangerous -by way of provoking a charge from several elephants not shot at. To solve this problem, a "long" shot was preferred. The 375 not only penetrated on tissue but also in a head shot. I do have to admit that I asked my PH that if the 375 was so great -why did he carry a 470 N.E.? He replied- "Ah,Gerry. The 375 is a killing shot -but the 470 is a stopping shot" Since I already had my buff (shot at fairly close range and under 35 yards)I understood him perfectly! If I ever again had to face a buff and even though the 375 performed perfectly and I killed a buff almost on the spot, I would want a bazooka next time -or,at least, a 470 N.E. Fact.

PH's are part of a dream buisness..you are helping clients realise their dreams.

Back in the Kenya days almost no PH's carried a double and very, very few carried anything bigger than a .375. Clients carried the doubles, not the PH.

Today, TV, Books and 'marketing' have changed expectations to a degree. We have also changed the way we hunt...There are alot more hunts in very close cover, particularly for ele cows.


On ele, reliable stopping power comes from putting a bullet in the brain- not from hitting the ele with a big bullet- look at the footage of Ivan failing to stop that bull last year with his .577- the bullet missed the brain and the ele didn't even really notice. The second shot hit the brain and the ele stopped instantly . I picked up when Kirk Mason was run through by an ele cow. He hit her in the head twice with a .500 Jeffery and the client with a .375. Kirk got off his second shot (after a missfire!) with the rifle touching here forehead--and moments before she ran him through with a tusk. Both bullets missed the brain- but not by much. The appie achieved a 1 shot stop with a .375- he hit the brain. There are plently more such stories...there are also plenty of stories of a hit to the head turning an ele charge. It does happen- fairly often.

Sooo if you are going into thick cover you make up your own mind.I like a double in close cover because it offers me a very quick second shot if I mess up, and consiquently fail to see the need for a monster big bore in a double- the extra recoil negates the advantage of a double- but that is just my experience and opinion. If you are carrying a bolt action, and hunting in conditions where you may well only get one shot, then you have to go with the hard statistics that say a over .40 is more likely to stop, turn or disorientate an ele if you fluff the shot than a .375.

If you can shoot a big bore double as fast as a smaller bore one...why not carry the bigger one-when things go wrong you want every edge you can get...

And no, what a client uses is largely irrelevant to the PH. The client isn't pushing the odds on a regular basis and usually isn't the one following wounded game into the thickest cover.

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Originally posted by Ganyana:

look at the footage of Ivan failing to stop that bull last year with his .577- the bullet missed the brain and the ele didn't even really notice. The second shot hit the brain and the ele stopped instantly .

Wasnt that Ivans 450 ?

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The client isn't pushing the odds on a regular basis

Given a consistent hunting style from a particular PH, I would venture that the chances of an elephant charge while hunting would fall into the catagory of a priori probability, meaning that there is the same probability of a charge with each and every hunt. In other words, it is just as likely to happen on client Joe's hunt, and just as likely to hasppen on Joe;s first day.

Diiferent eles, with different attitudes in different areas would make a difference of course. Zambezi cows, for example, despite their fearsome reputations, are mild in comparison to Save cows.

JPK

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Sooo if you are going into thick cover you make up your own mind.I like a double in close cover because it offers me a very quick second shot if I mess up, and consiquently fail to see the need for a monster big bore in a double- the extra recoil negates the advantage of a double- but that is just my experience and opinion. If you are carrying a bolt action, and hunting in conditions where you may well only get one shot, then you have to go with the hard statistics that say a over .40 is more likely to stop, turn or disorientate an ele if you fluff the shot than a .375.

If you can shoot a big bore double as fast as a smaller bore one...why not carry the bigger one-when things go wrong you want every edge you can get...

This represents a sea change! Wouldn't take long to find articles and posts where Ganyana poo poo's PH's with either double rifles or large bare rifles.

Had a run in recently?

JPK

JPK...no, and just upgraded from a .500/416 to a .375FL

I have always believed in shot placement over power, but...the statistics from Zim parks show that guys using a big rifle get away with mistakes more often than guys with .375's. I will find the data- I wrote up the analysis for Magnum about 1996/7..some 20 years worth of ele fatalities and injuries sumerised.

There is a 'feeling' that an ele hit in the brain by a 'more powerful' bullet goes down quicker than one hit by a less powerful bullet. I have many of the old 8mm films of the ele culls, and ele cows brained by Clem with the 500/465 definately always go down back legs first and go down hard and fast compared to those dropped with the 7,62x54R or Garrands.

Brian Marsh swopped his .470 for a .450 Watts in 1968 - he felt it put bulls down 'faster' and felt it offered a significant improvement over a .458 win.

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Originally posted by Ganyana:
JPK...no, and just upgraded from a .500/416 to a .375FL

I have always believed in shot placement over power, but...the statistics from Zim parks show that guys using a big rifle get away with mistakes more often than guys with .375's. I will find the data- I wrote up the analysis for Magnum about 1996/7..some 20 years worth of ele fatalities and injuries sumerised.

There is a 'feeling' that an ele hit in the brain by a 'more powerful' bullet goes down quicker than one hit by a less powerful bullet. I have many of the old 8mm films of the ele culls, and ele cows brained by Clem with the 500/465 definately always go down back legs first and go down hard and fast compared to those dropped with the 7,62x54R or Garrands.

Brian Marsh swopped his .470 for a .450 Watts in 1968 - he felt it put bulls down 'faster' and felt it offered a significant improvement over a .458 win.

I have read your analysis. Certainly makes the case for .458" and up.

It short changed the 458wm, maybe because the powders that make it what it can be today weren't available? But prior yo your analysis, Paul Grobler, Richard Harland, Ron Thomson, Barrie Duckworth, etc, had already shown that the 458wm, in Winchester factory form, was the equal of the 450NE, at least as I read their stories. (and should be since actual real rifle ballistic performance of the 450NE's with their 480gr solids was "only" about on par with Winchester factory 458wm ammo (and behind with Winchester's better bullets.) (Thomson believed the 470 hit harder. I believe that that is probably because its bullet shape reportedly results in more frequent and perhaps more rapid tumbling, nothing like a solid tumbling, if it has reached where is needs to go, to increase damage.)

Here is theory regrading the greater efficacy of larger bullets (and faster larger bullets beyond that) and more instantaneous, more dramatic death by brain shot: What produces the most "instant death", at least to the nervous system, with a complete and completely instantaneous shut down is destruction of the rear portion of the brain, especially the lower rear protion. Given two bullets with the same course through the brain, the larger one will create more damage, the faster larger one more yet. That greater damage more effectively destroys instantaneously the rear/lower rear of the brain, wherever the bullets course is compared to the same shot with a smaller bullet. More sphinx's and fewer laying on their sides with their legs inscribing small circles in the air.

I draw this conclusion based on my experience (all with the 458wm, a couple running at 2050fps the rest at 2145fps mv) which shows more instantaneous and dramatic shutdowns, more sphinx's, when I have hit the rear or lower rear of the brain (even if it was with a second shot.)

I think this includes the head of the spine at/in the ball joint at the junction of the skull and spine.

Two typical examples: 1. one tuskless which stood stock still after the frontal shot for a fleeting moment, with just enough time for me to actually see her eyes go from pissed to blank before she tipped over dead. The bullet was high; 2. a tuskless that dropped perfectly in the shpinx position. The bullet was lower. This pattern appears consistent, and no field disection I've had time to do has been inconsistent. I have never seen the fleeting delay between shot and "lights out" in the eyes again, though.

I have had seven eles drop in the shpinx position, which I think is a higher than typical proportion.

On the issue of the bigger bores accounting for some mistakes, yes, that is the point. No matter how good a hunter, how fine a shot, we will all make mistakes, we are but human. My favorite analogy is that the difference bewteen this year's world champion shooter (pick your discipline) and the number two guy is that the champion made one fewer mistake in the match. And then there are those suprises and events beyond our control...

I am aware of your injury which makes big bores painful for you. I think it predjudices your view of recoil, but then, you have your experience with clients and their reaction to recoil... Hey, some fellows put in the time and effort to learn how to properly ring out a Ferrari, but most ought to keep it under triple (mph) digits, at least until they become prepared.

What ever happened to your Lott? Retired?

JPK

Sooooo, what I'm basically hearing is that I should leave my .243 at home. . . . . ?
Damn!

Shouder doesn't bother me from standing..I have only one hard core file left but I shoot it fairly often..in the same recoil class as Saeeds Tyranasaur. The problem for me with heavy recoil is recovery time and when shooting from a funny angle.

My Lott? There was no point in keeping it once I got a double, so now Gordon Duncan has it - although I notice he still carries his .375

I sure don't have the experience of Ganyana or Ivan but for what little it is worth it doesn't appear to me that you can do much but rock an elephants head if your bullet lands 2 or more inches over the top of the brain. And that includes any rifle including the super boomers like the 700, 600 577 and various bolt monsters. Land two inches below the brain and the elephant will be knocked down, maybe dead, or knocked out cold. I firmly believe in aiming just a touch low on frontal shots.

465H&H

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Originally posted by Ganyana:
My Lott? There was no point in keeping it once I got a double, so now Gordon Duncan has it - although I notice he still carries his .375

Lott is carried by one of his trackers in the early season's thick stuff. Gordon executed an ele cull last August - he used two bolted .375 H&H (one was carried by his gunbearer) - 2 guys approached a herd of 13 - Gordon's comrade shot 2 - the rest of the herd's 11 elephants was shot by Gordon in a minute or so...he had to coupe the grace a young bull with his .44mag tho...

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the rest of the herd's 11 elephants was shot by Gordon in a minute or so...he had to coupe the grace a young bull

A 91% success rate on brain shots. 9% misses. And that is better than typical of PH's I suspect.

JPK