As I understand the cities rules, sport hunted ivory belongs to the hunter and cannot legally be sold by the hunter. But after the hunter dies the person who the hunter willed the ivory to can legally sell the ivory.

My question is: I keep seeing that ivory is selling for $3,000usd per kilo on the black market. I don't believe that it could really be selling this high, but if it is what would the value of legal sale(sold by the beneficiary) sport hunted ivory?

Or to be more clear, what is the current value of legal ivory?

Someone has read "Wandering of an Elephant Hunter" one too many times. Considering a carrier in profesional ivory hunting?

Brett

PS. Seriously though an interesting question.

quote:

Originally posted by Brett Adam Barringer:

Brett

PS. Seriously though an interesting question.

I agree. A few years ago ivory really was not worth much. At today's prices some of our beneficiaries stand to do pretty well, even on modest tusks. If the 3k per kilo prices are correct, even a pair that go 35# a side would be worth $100,000.


And I would think legal ivory would sell for more than illegal ivory?

quote:

Originally posted by JBrown:
As I understand the cities rules, sport hunted ivory belongs to the hunter
and cannot legally be sold by the hunter. But after the hunter dies the person
who the hunter willed the ivory to can legally sell the ivory.

IS the above CORRECT ???????

In Holts latest auction a pair of 50 pounders was not sold for £ 6000.

The good days are long gone.
http://auctions.holtandcompany...o=+++28318&saletype=

Forget it guys, if there were a way to do it legally, there'd be no black market/smuggling industry and we'd have a thriving legal ivory industry.

The days of legal get rich schemes involving ivory died out years ago.

quote:

Originally posted by BigFiveJack:

quote:

Originally posted by JBrown:
As I understand the cities rules, sport hunted ivory belongs to the hunter
and cannot legally be sold by the hunter. But after the hunter dies the person
who the hunter willed the ivory to can legally sell the ivory.

IS the above CORRECT ???????

I may be wrong, but I believe that it is correct.

I have heard of prices as high as 5000 per kilo but when i checked into it the price was closer to 50 kilo. I was living near a village called mukoki. this village has a reputation for being a center for poachers. I found out a long time ago that most reports from the area ie. africa are greatly increased. for dramatic effect or to get attention

quote:

Originally posted by ddrhook:
I found out a long time ago that most reports from the area ie. africa are greatly increased. for dramatic effect or to get attention

That was my feeling. $1,363 per pound would mean that a 40 lb tusk would be worth $54,000.


At prices like that elephants don't stand a chance.

Does anyone know the value of legal ivory?

a little over a yr ago two chines women where stopped at customs with a part of very small tusks carved by local artist. they weighed about 5 lbs. They were valued at around 250 and thats after the carver got his added price. You can buy anything and it's cheap most of the time. I was offered a buffalo hide shield yr before last for 200. from a massi friend of mine.

This post started several years ago but it has me curious as I have some legal ivory taken in Namibia in 1996 (problem elephant from the Caprivi).

Assuming I have to croak for this ivory to be sold in my estate....what is the going rate for legally begotten ivory (July 2009)?

quote:

This post started several years ago

Some were sold on e-bay for a few years before e-bay nixed them last year. IIRC, some 40-50 lb/tusk pairs were going for about $8-10K. About $100/lb?

Well at the legal bulk auctions to Chinese & Japanese buyers , it goes for US $142 to $160
a Kilo , over tonns mind you & peaks at US $435 in Japan , so manufacturing ,craving grade could be US $150 a Kilo ?
But a nice Trophy set would be best sent to a auction , if that is legal ?
Then add a premium for desirability !

Here's a pair at 114lbs the pair for $120k.

http://www.africanartsllc.com/pre-ban-tusks.php

I now have a new justification for the Mrs for my next elephant hunt.

Here is a "pre-ban" purchaser, up to $150/lb.

http://www.cuecomponents.com/elivco.html

JPK

duh....I was looking at the wrong dates. Guess it's not an old post.

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:
Here's a pair at 114lbs the pair for $120k.

http://www.africanartsllc.com/pre-ban-tusks.php

I now have a new justification for the Mrs for my next elephant hunt.

Here is a "pre-ban" purchaser, up to $150/lb.

http://www.cuecomponents.com/elivco.html

JPK

That's 12K isn't it?

quote:

Originally posted by jeffs:

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:
Here's a pair at 114lbs the pair for $120k.

http://www.africanartsllc.com/pre-ban-tusks.php

I now have a new justification for the Mrs for my next elephant hunt.

Here is a "pre-ban" purchaser, up to $150/lb.

http://www.cuecomponents.com/elivco.html

JPK

That's 12K isn't it?

The $12K is for 6.5# small carved tusks. The big set is $120K.

My taxidermist just this week told me the currant price for ivory is $865 per kilo.

Sam

quote:

Originally posted by Sam H. Juckett:
My taxidermist just this week told me the currant price for ivory is $865 per kilo.

Sam

If that price holds, if it is even accurate today, some of our family members are going to do pretty well when we head off to the happy hunting grounds.

I can't help but think some of these price quotes above are a little unrealistic. The 100+ pounders bring a premium, of course, but anything near $800 / kilo for ordinary tusks seems to be fanciful.

Your "average" tusk from many countries these days is 35-40 pounds, so let's say 15 kilos per tusk, or 30 kilos per pair.

I just can't believe a pair of 15 Kilo tusks would fetch anywhere near $25,000 US on the open market. My guess is that an extra zero has been added, but I cannot point to any specific sale to corroborate this number.

Anyone?

If the numbers were really true, a guy could make a nice profit shooting tusks at today's trophy fees. There is that little technicality of having to be dead before selling the tusks legally, so please don't tell my wife!

Bill

quote:

Originally posted by llamapacker:
I can't help but think some of these price quotes above are a little unrealistic. The 100+ pounders bring a premium, of course, but anything near $800 / kilo for ordinary tusks seems to be fanciful.

Your "average" tusk from many countries these days is 35-40 pounds, so let's say 15 kilos per tusk, or 30 kilos per pair.

I just can't believe a pair of 15 Kilo tusks would fetch anywhere near $25,000 US on the open market. My guess is that an extra zero has been added, but I cannot point to any specific sale to corroborate this number.

Anyone?

If the numbers were really true, a guy could make a nice profit shooting tusks at today's trophy fees. There is that little technicality of having to be dead before selling the tusks legally, so please don't tell my wife!

Bill

Your questions outline exactly why I posted this discussion.

I think the numbers are vastly inflated, but they seem to keep popping-up and no one seems to question them.

My humble oppinion is some one got some ivory in some place like kenya for 25000kenya shillings and it was not coverted to usd when it got reported on the net. I was in Kenya three months ago and ivory(poached) was selling for 50usd a kilo.= 35000ks even in kenya people where saying 35000 usd dollars but i did check it out for myself and this was what I found out. Also some of the ivory that the kenya goverment is showing as poached this yr. clearly show the poaching date as 4 yrs ago. look on yahoo news and type in kenya and you can see the report and one tusk with dates on it

Take a look at the links in my post. They provide 2009 in the US pricing for "pre-ban" ivory. One on the buying side and one on the selling side. 7x spread between bid and ask.

JPK

So, we are no closer to a realistic price than we were before. Any more ideas? It would be smart both for insurance purposes and estate valuation to come up with a realistic number. I just dont know where to look.

I had to check this but finally found time to talk to a good friend who was one of the largest ivory dealers in the industry right up to the ban and he tells me that sport hunted ivory taken post ban may not be legally sold or traded at any time or under any circumstances....... and I'd bet my right arm he'll have his facts right.

I didn't ask him about moving it across international borders but obviously the normal CITES rules would apply.

As to value, officially, post ban sport hunted ivory has no value because it cannot be legally traded.

Regarding values quoted in the press, I don't see they have any relevance. Auction prices are for auctioned ivory and the buyers probably get together beforehand anyway to set a price and decide on who gets what and illegal ivory is equally different because it's illegal and quoted price is probably a BS figure dreamed up by some bloody idiot journalist to make his or her story more exciting.

Thnak you Shakari. Thant what i been trying to tell people but Im not as elequent as you are

Thanks Steve. This still leaves the question of insurance valuation. Also just what happens to ivory after the owner dies? I would hate to think some govt poag ends up with it.

We probably need John Jackson to chime in on this one, but I think Shakari is correct in that post-ban "sport-hunted elephant trophies for personal use" cannot be sold. Period. They can be willed, but the inheritor is stuck with them. Pre-ban ivory, properly documented, can be sold (sometimes, not in some states), but since the supply is very limited the prices are high--but not as one might think. In the last year I have seen a "hundred pound per side" pair (just over, about 103 each) sell for $50k, and at SCI last year a huge 120-pound+ pair sold for less than $40k. (Or so I was told. I did see the tusks, they were real!) Both prices seemed pretty low, but I sure didn't have the ka-jing to compete.

Mike,

The owner can leave the ivory to whoever he likes but the inheritor will need to generate a new set of permits to move it across any internatonal borders. To do that, he'll need the original paperwork from the deceased estate. That might also apply to moving across state borders in the US, but I'm not sure.

As to insurance valuations. I'd say it's entirely up to the owner as to the type of policy he decides to pay for. At one end of the scale, the tusks could be put on an ordinary household insurance policy with a nominal value or at the other end of the scale, he could have a separate policy that might for example quote a price sufficient to pay for a replacement Elephant hunt........ however, that would obviously be reflected in a much higher premium.

If you mean how do you get a commercial valuation, the short answer is you don't, because the ivory cannot be legally traded and therefore cannot have a commercial value of any kind.

Pre ban (sport hunted) ivory rules are (technically) different and although I'm going from memory here, still may not be traded commercially, but may still be gifted or willed. However, they need a different set of paperwork from post ban ivory. The difference being it's a different licence that is easier to get but you have to prove it was taken in the pre ban period. Note the permit allows for transport across international borders but does not allow it to be traded.

Basically, no ivory, whether it's pre or post ban or sport hunted or otherwise may be traded under any circumstances.......with the exception of ivory that has a special permit such as has been issued as one offs to countries such as SA & Namibian Game Depts in recent years.

As I said previously, the days of get rich schemes from ivory are long gone and if they were not, we'd still have a healthy ivory industry and no black market.

FWIW, I had a friend (in SA) die some years ago and he left his tiger skin (same catagory as Elephant) to his brother in the UK. I got the job of organising the licences and transporting it. I called the local CITES office and asked the situation and was tld it's easy if I can prove the trophy was taken pre a certain date etc. All I had to do was write to my local CITES office with a bunch of proof such as original hunting permit, taxidermist receipt and photos etc and they sent me a permit to ship about a week later.

quote:

Originally posted by craig boddington:
We probably need John Jackson to chime in on this one, but I think Shakari is correct in that post-ban "sport-hunted elephant trophies for personal use" cannot be sold. Period. They can be willed, but the inheritor is stuck with them. Pre-ban ivory, properly documented, can be sold (sometimes, not in some states), but since the supply is very limited the prices are high--but not as one might think. In the last year I have seen a "hundred pound per side" pair (just over, about 103 each) sell for $50k, and at SCI last year a huge 120-pound+ pair sold for less than $40k. (Or so I was told. I did see the tusks, they were real!) Both prices seemed pretty low, but I sure didn't have the ka-jing to compete.

Mr. Boddington
I am glad you weighed in on this subject. It looks like my info was incorrect as far as the sale of willed ivory being legal.

Shakari
One of the few pieces of info that I was able to turn up in my search is the fact that post ban sport hunted ivory cannot be "re-exported" form the US. This does affect me in that I plan to move overseas at some point and my ivory will have to stay here in the US.

Spoke to my ex ivory dealer buddy this morning to try to get some clarification on the whole story and frankly the whole thing strikes me as an complete cluster-f**k that gets more complicated every time you look at it.

Sport hunted trophies obviously fall into an entirely separate catagory but as far as trading pre ban ivory goes, it seems to vary from country to country (UK for example seem to forbid trading of any ivory no matter when or how it was taken) and possibly in the States from state to state.......... and to cut a long story short, I'm even more confused now than I was at the start!

I reckon you'd have to research and write an entire book on the subject to get everything right.

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:
Spoke to my ex ivory dealer buddy this morning to try to get some clarification on the whole story and frankly the whole thing strikes me as an complete cluster-f**k that gets more complicated every time you look at it.

Sport hunted trophies obviously fall into an entirely separate catagory but as far as trading pre ban ivory goes, it seems to vary from country to country (UK for example seem to forbid trading of any ivory no matter when or how it was taken) and possibly in the States from state to state.......... and to cut a long story short, I'm even more confused now than I was at the start!

I reckon you'd have to research and write an entire book on the subject to get everything right.

And here folks we have what could be termed as a base price for a pound of sport hunted ivory:

Elephant Package – 10 days at $20,000, plus a trophy fee of $350 per pound of ivory on the biggest side. Regular Price - $25,000.00 plus trophy fee.

Mate, I reckon its as good a way as any to do it!