I'm planning on taking my .458 to Zim this August for elephant. I can't remember what solids I used back in '04, but I need the shortest ones I can find to feed reliably.

Any suggestions on a short 500g solid for this hunt?

See if the 500 gr Speer African Grand slam solid with tungsten core isn't the shortest. tungsten is denser than lead.

Mark, you would not go wrong if you dropped to a 450gr. solid...

Mike

N'gagi:

Probably the shortest 500 grain solids were the now unavailable Speer African Grand Slam solids. They had a tungsten core. Tungsten being more dense than lead made them shorter. I believe Speer discontinued them but they were still available until stock ran out at Midway,etc.

I would imagine that Woodleigh conventional solids would be the next shortest, lead core bonded to steel jacket.

As an option, why not consider a monolithic solid by Northfork or GS Custom in 450 grain and then loaded to the original COL of 3.340"? I can load AA2230 and achieve 2240 FPS with no powder compaction and no pressure signs. I am not home now so I can't recall the powder weight exactly, 65-67 grains I think. I have developed this load for my .458WM using GS Custom flat point solids and Northfork Cup Point Solids the latter load which I will use in Zim this summer for buffalo.

You might want to do a search on "Big Bores" for additional information.

Good Luck.

RCG

quote:

Originally posted by RCG:

I would imagine that Woodleigh conventional solids would be the next shortest, lead core bonded to steel jacket.


RCG

I'm not sure, but I think Mark's gun was not feeding the flat nose bullets reliably.

I have some of the Speer AGS Tungsten solids and some of the 500 grain Woodleigh solids. The Woodlieghs are just a hair longer and would probably be the best option. The are the classic round nose, so no issue on feeding. I think (need to check) that the 500 grain Woodleighs are shorter than the 450 grain mono bullets.

Mark, if you like I can give you some of the Woodleighs to try out. Just let me know and we can meet up to get them to you.

Oh yeah, where is my safari contract? Don't send it to my (old) office address. I just changed companies again. Will forward you my new work contact info.

Tim

I have to agree with Mike. I think you will do better with the 450 grain solids. I find they shoot much better out of my Whitworth with no compressed loads.

Standing side by side, no micrometer handy.thr North Fork 450's are the same length as the 500 Woodleighs.

The 450 NF's penetrate much better than the 500 Woodleighs - first hand messured repeated results!

But the Woodlieghs will do the job if you can't make the NF's load.

I have data for both if you need it.

I use H4895 for the NF's and AA2230 for the Woodlieghs. No powder compaction issues.

JPK

As others have suggested, I too would bet the discontinued Speed African Grand Slams with the tungsten core are the shortest for weight.

I bought a pallet of them when they were on sale last year at Midway. They shot great. But I could never quite get them to feed from my 460's magazine the way the spire or pure round nosed bullets did.

If you can't find them elsewhere, and you think they are the right answer for you, shoot me a PM and I'll make sure you get some.

Besides, if they don't work out, you can still have fun punching holes in thick iron plates with them.

Mark,

This doesn't answer your question but you're welcome to the odds and ends I have around for messing with loads. I have some of the old style 500gr. Hornady FMJ's, old style RN 500 gr. Barnes solids and a few GS Customs 500 gr. solids.

I used the old style RN 450 gr. Barnes solid on my first buffalo and I was happy with that bullet, but I don't seem to have any left. (That wasn't out of the .458 WM though).

Let me know if any of those will help and they'll be on the way to you.

For shorter softs (obviously not for the ele) I have some Swift 450 gr. if you'd like to try them.

Email sent on another idea.

Kyler

Mark"

If you want to try the Northfork flat point solids but don't want to risk buying a whole box, Mike will send you a 5 pack of bullets at a nominal cost.

I could also get you a couple of GS Custom Flat Point Solids to try if you are really interested.

On a side note, is Gerard distributing his excellent bullets through "Custom Brass and Bullets" in the USA? I seem to recall seeing something to this effect on his website or somewhere elase recently. If so, that should make them easier to obtain here.

Regards,

RCG

Thanks for all the great advice, PM's and offers to send me, give me, and sell me bullets. That's one of the reasons AR is the absolute finest website, and has the greatest group of people I've ever met...

I happen to HATE to reload. I'm just a little too ADD to be any good at it, and other than practice loads, I might consider using FACTORY ammo. If you were me, and decided to use factory solids, which would you suggest. I know from experience the TBBC will not feed in my gun..

Kyler has a good story about this I think, but at any rate, I'll need something that feeds well, and it doesn't appear that the nose shape makes a difference, it's mostly overall length that makes the difference....

BTW, my rifle (the one shown below) is a custom, built on a VZ24 action.

You can always have someone like Superior Ammo load the solids you want.

Mark,

To expand on what Charles said have Larry at Superior send you a sample pack of differnt solid loads and you can see what shoots and feed. Then you can have him load whatever works best in your rifle. OR send him the rifle and let him custom build a load for your rifle.

Mark

+1 on Superior. Years ago, they did a great job of loading custom 30-378 ammo for me before I became addicted to reloading myself.

quote:

Originally posted by MARK H. YOUNG:
Mark,

To expand on what Charles said have Larry at Superior send you a sample pack of differnt solid loads and you can see what shoots and feed. Then you can have him load whatever works best in your rifle. OR send him the rifle and let him custom build a load for your rifle.

Mark

The Sample Pak is an excellent suggestion:

http://www.superiorammo.com/sample.html

+3 for the sample pack from Superior if you don't want to mess with reloading.

I helped someone shoot up a sample pack through his stone stock Ruger .416 and we got some honest 3 shot 1/2" groups at 100 yards. I couldn't have been more impressed.

I'm not sure which story you mean Mark. You know I just make that junk up anyway.

Kyler

Another custom loader to consider would be John at www.safariarms.com

RCG

You might try the 480 grain Woodleigh. It is 1.340 inches long compared to 1.388 for the 500 grain FMJ RN. My friend Jim coxin used this in his 3 inch .458 in RSA on bull elephant. It gave him just enough powder capacity to reach 2250 fps with pressure he was comfortable with.

Andy

quote:

Originally posted by Kyler Hamann:


I'm not sure which story you mean Mark. You know I just make that junk up anyway.

Kyler

Oh you know the one. It was 0-dark thirty and I was cussing up a fit trying to get the rounds into my rifle. I finally got you to get a flashlight, and we found that the box of rounds I had grabbed on the way out the door was a box of factory solids that were a 1/4" too long for my gun (and illegal to use in California) so you loaned me a few 450g grain bulets you had in the back-up box.

You may also recall that on that same trip, I took an offhand shot at a coyote up on a hillside. My cross hairs were dead on, but my borrowed bullet slapped the ground about three feet below a fine beef grade steer that was standing there watching the whole thing like he was watching an episode of Jackass.

Or there was the time we had a beatiful bobcat standing broadside, and I had a perfect rest on a log, and shot the only twig on the darn thing five inces in front of my muzzle....or how about the time I was ready to stomp my Leopold Bino's with my 15EEEE boots, when you pointed out that there was a lens cap INSIDE the lens on one side (I still think that was a set up)..or the time that..

You get the point. Patrick McManus could not not make up stories like the ones I create in real life. I may be the Barney Fife of Big Game hunting, but at least I either miss completely, or drop them with a single shot...I'm not sure if that's good or bad, but, I just may have to change my screen name to something more fitting...

Barney .458?

A Square loads a 465 grain Mono Solid. I guess they are still in business? Maybe someone on AR has a box and can measure the OA length.
Rich Elliott

Rich,

I hunted elephant with the original A-Square as made by TCCI. 465 grain RN solid, made from free machining brass. Here is picture of one TCCI/A-Square as it was being removed from skull of elephant.



Unless you shoot it through solid bone like I did (one shot exited into 2 feet of mandible), they do not deform even at 9 feet and 2500 fps from a 450 Dakota.

Overall length 1.443 inches, quite a bit longer than a conventional 480 or 500 grain Woodleigh FMJ.

The new A-Square's have a taller and deeper cannelure and nice polishing job, but otherwise similar.



If you want a short 458 solid you will still need to look at a conventional FMJ like the Woodleigh 480 grain.

After using the TCCI/A-Square, I would do what ever you can to make your rifle feed a 450 grain FN like the North Fork or GS. The NF I shot into my dead elephant had nearly twice the penetration as my TCCI RN.



Shown, two TCCI, and experimental North Fork FN.

Safe hunting.

Andy

FYI,

The canelure for the 480gr Woodleigh is too far forward for the 458wm, imo. Seated to this depth the cartridge with the 480 grainer is shorter than with the 500gr Woodleigh seated to the canelure, but you're eating up powder room. I got the 480 grainers, seated to the canelure, to 450NE nominal velocity easily though, and that's proven territory.

Just remember, you don't want your bullets either either setting back or pulling forward on recoil or contact with the front of the magazine.

The North Fork has some room to play with since it is a driving band bullet. COL is not an issue for my rifle and I seat them further out than Mike recomends for a bolt 458 and they still are under COL max.

I do know that at 2190fps the NF's out penetrate the 500gr Woodleighs at 2135fps in elephants by a BIG margin.

JPK

N'gagi,is that a 458Win mag?If so,have you hunted with it in the past and how did it perform?

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
N'gagi,is that a 458Win mag?If so,have you hunted with it in the past and how did it perform?

Yes, it's a .458WM, and has worked perfectly. I dropped that buff at about 20 yards, and flattened him. I've used it on everything from wild pigs to baboons on up. Excellent round in my opinion. I am 6'7", and the rifle has about a 17" length of pull, so with a 26" barrel it has good balance, and I think I get Lott type velocities from it.

No flys on a properly loaded 458wm!

JPK

In Terry Wieland's book--Dangerous-Game Rifles--there is a picture of several 458 solids lined- up together on page 247. The 500gr Speer AGS is shortest. The longest is the A2 465 gr.! TBSS 500gr. and Woodleigh 500 gr. are in between those two in length.

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:


I do know that at 2190fps the NF's out penetrate the 500gr Woodleighs at 2135fps in elephants by a BIG margin.

JPK

Do you think that the newer 450 grain Barnes Banded Solid (with flat point) would penetrate as well as the 450 grain NorthFork when pushed to the same 2,190fps velocity?

Thanks.

Tim

Shumba,

I don't know for sure but strongly suspect that the key to the North Fork's penetration lays in its large diameter flat point and truncated cone configuration. The Barnes, which I've seen in photos only, are a round nose bullet with the nose cut off to form a relatively small flat point. Doesn't seem to match the formula for the phenominal penetration of the North Forks'.

JPK

Might be easier to get to feed in a bolt rifle.

quote:

Originally posted by Shumba:

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:


I do know that at 2190fps the NF's out penetrate the 500gr Woodleighs at 2135fps in elephants by a BIG margin.

JPK

Do you think that the newer 450 grain Barnes Banded Solid (with flat point) would penetrate as well as the 450 grain NorthFork when pushed to the same 2,190fps velocity?

Thanks.

Tim

ABSOLUTELY NOT! (imo)

The Barnes and NF in this instance have the same weight, BUT BUT BUT

1. The NF is made from a denser material, resulting in a shorter bullet. A shorter bullet will experience less lateral friction and will experience less yaw.

2. The NF has a larger meplat than the Barnes. Larger meplats tend toward deeper penetration.

3. The NF is a frustoconical bullet, while the Barnes is ogived with a relatively small flat nose. An ogive tends to negate the advantage of the flat meplat.

I should add that the smaller meplat and ogive of the Barnes probably mean it will feed in more guns. However, I heave heard complaints about even the Barnes not feeding in some rifles, so be sure to work out feeding issues regardless of the bullet used.

I would second what 500 grains said about the Barnes FN. It is really a RN-FN.



Shown left to right. 400 grain Barnes RN, unfired and fired. 450 grain FN and original 450 grain RN. As you can see, the FN is quite a bit longer.

If supercavitation is the reason for the increased penetration of the FN, I believe a RN-FN will have more or all of the ogive outside the vapor barrier.

A RN-FN also has less temporary cavity and a smaller permanant wound cavity than a Truncated FN like the North Fork and original and very influential GS FN.

I know at handgun velocities a RN-FN like the old 255 grain 45 Long Colt which has a very similar profile as the Barnes, leaves a larger wound than a RN but not nearly as large as a Truncated FN or SWC. (Ive shot quite a few feedlot cattle with all three).

The Barnes FN was not 100% for reliability in my unmodified CZ550 feed ramp. After widening and beveling it, the Forth Fork and GS feed as well as the Barnes, so I would stick with a Truncated FN.

Andy

N'gagi,

I found notes from my test of .458 caliber bullets and here is a partial list of .458 bullet lengths, both SP, FMJ and monometal:

400 Woodleigh PP 1.160
450 Kodiak SP 1.215
465 A-Square Dead Tough SP 1.232
400 Barnes RN SOLID 1.250
400 TBBC SP 1.265
425 Rhino SP 1.297
400 North Fork SP 1.305
500 Speer AGS FMJ 1.313
450 Swift SP 1.315
500 Kodiak SP 1.323
500 Hornady SP 1.331
400 Barnes X 1.340
480 Woodleigh FMJ 1.340
450 grain GS-FN SOLID 1.353
500 Trophy Bonded Speer (SP) 1.354
500 Trophy Bonded Sledghammer SOLID 1.360
450 North Fork FN SOLID 1.370
450 Barnes RN-FN SOLID 1.379
500 Woodleigh FMJ 1.387
485 Rhino SP 1.390
500 Woodleigh PP 1.394
450 Barnes RN SOLID 1.395
450 North Fork Cup Point 1.397
500 Swift SP 1.430
465 A-Square monolithic SOLID 1.445
450 North Fork SP 1.458
450 Barnes X 1.495
450 Barnes Tripple Shock 1.519
500 A-Square monometal SOLID 1.550
500 Barnes X 1.630

I have highlighted in bold the FMJ's and monometals.

Andy

Thanks Andy. The Speer AGS is the shortest 500 gr.FMJ (not technically a solid, but I think what we're talking about).
Next shortest solids/FMJ's above 400 gr were Woodleigh's FMJ 480 gr and Gerald's 450 GS-FN solid. Wonderful data.

THANK YOU SO MUCH!!!!

Everybody for all your input. This is EXACTLY the kind of information I was looking for. I just wonder if we could add one more component to this question?

Of all the solids, which one has the shortest OAL, using a cannule (sp)?

This is where I really show what a reloading dork I am, but I used hundreds of reloads before my last safari, and loaded them all single feed (Barnes X) which will not feed from my magazine. I bought a few boxes of factory ammo before I went, sighted in, practiced cycling them and used them with good success.

I'd like to use my own reloads on my elephant this year, so I a) need something that will feed reeliably (the above info is great), but I would feel a lot better if I knew my rounds had a cannule so that I don't get compression under recoil.

Is that a stupid assumption? Will a bullet with a cannule be less likely to compress if I don't have my crimp just right? It seems logical on it's surface, but in the case of this particular DG hunt, I don't want ANYTHING to go wrong, ya know?

Most of my reloading experience has been with shotshells and medium/low power loads, or big bores fed in singles at the range or practicing. I have almost always fallen back on PREMIUM factory loads for final feeding practice rounds and the actual hunt.

I'm sure a lot of you have done the same thing, but maybe not?

Hey Mark,

I'd actually forgotten several of those stories. Good stuff, it's ALWAYS interesting hunting with you. I SWEAR the binocular cap was a an innocent mishap but I don't blame you for being suspicious... it seemed too perfect.

As to the crimping, this may not quite answer your question but you wouldn't necessarily be limited to just crimping on the standard groove if you use a Lee Factory Crimp die. If the diameter is correct the only big drawback to these Lee dies is a potential deformation of the bullets and that isn't a concern on a monolithic solid.

Kyler

N'gagi,

The new North Fork FN are now just 1.360 long I think, and have more grooves than any other bullet, so you can crimp it almost anywhere.

I would try those first and match it with the bonded North Fork soft point.

Two indestructible bullets. And .458 Lott velocity without the recoil!

If you just want to practice, the 500 grain Woodleigh RN soft point had by far the lowest pressure of any of the 500 grain bullets in my rifle. The steel jacketed solids had the most. So bullet length is not the only issue here. Judging pressure over length I think you will like the North Fork.

Andy