Ethics aside I was wondering if canned lion hunts are legal. While at the DSC one of the vendors was talking about the canned lion hunts they had available.

I should note that by canned I mean that they stated that they raise and release the lions.

Thanks, John

PS, I was not interested or asking about the hunt. I just listened and kept my comments to myself.

Ropes,

Yes, in South Africa unfortunately they are legal.
But you also get different kinds of canned hunts as well.

Drugged lion
Lion released the previous day and doesnt know his surrounding.
Lion looking after himself for a couple of months on the property
Lion released in a very small area less than 100 acres.

But bascially if the lion is not a PAC lion that comes from Bostwana to kill cattle and not hunted on a property next to the Kruger park it is basically quaraanteed that it's a canned lion.

First let me state " I AM AGAINST CANNED HUNTING"
One of the big arguments that is helping to gain canned hunts a new foothold is the reasoning that captive bred for "hunting" lions do not affect the natural ecosystem as does the taking of a naturally occuring lion.

The lion was bred for the purpose of being taken by a hunter and it's genes were removed from the breeding pool, such as a hunter in the wild killing said animal, but in the case of a captive bred lion it was removed from the breeding pool yet it continues to produce offspring. those offspring are then hunted which does not affect the natural lion population whatsoever if anything it helps increase the population because a wild lion is not taken out of the breeding population.

Anyway thats the argument, like I said, I am personally against canned hunts, now I don't believe a canned hunt is a 20-30,000 acre ranch with a fence, a canned hunt is an animal put in a tiny enclosure with no chance of using it's natural defenses to protect itself.

The only way to stop this type of hunting is if there is not a market for it, people buy these hunts, so they keep providing them.

Gentlemen,

Where do we draw the line in so called "canned" hunting?


I get the distinct impression that the antis are railroading us on this, just to gain a foothold in banning hunting altogether.

There are extremely few lions that can actually be hunted in true wild sense.

These lions are bred to be shot, true. But isn't this also true of practically all animals hunted in South Africa?

How are we going to react if the antis, after managing to stop "canned" lions hunts, use that as an example to stop the rest of hunting that is done on farms in South Africa and elsewhere?

I am not trying to preach to anyone. I do not partcularly feel comfortable shooting ANY lion in South Africa. Nor would I hunt buffalo on a farm either.

But, I do enjoy hunting plains game in South Africa, and sure have no wish for those who look at hunting, in any form, as something to be stopped.

Those who actually go on "canned" lion hunts know full well what they are getting. Anyone who claims otherwise is just plain lying.

And if they wish to do that, they are very welcome to it.

Thanks for the question about lions in South Africa. I recall that there was legislation to stop lion killing in RSA as of February of this year. To my knowledge the land owners initiated a legal challenge that resulted in the legislation being overturned. This means that ranch lions (as well as problem lions) will still be available in South Africa temporarily. Later when the green movement gets more steam, another challenge will come through the courts until it is finally banned. As has been suggested, this will then probide the first of the domino species in the second of the domino countries.

You can bet prices will sky-rocket in all other countries during this process, and I think we're all starting to see the sticker-shock already. After 15 years of hunting Africa, I may find myself on the sidelines now unless some good deal on a cancellation hunt comes up. Good hunting. Thanks for bringing this up.

quote:

Originally posted by Safari-Hunt:
Ropes,

Yes, in South Africa unfortunately they are legal.
But you also get different kinds of canned hunts as well.

Drugged lion
Lion released the previous day and doesnt know his surrounding.
Lion looking after himself for a couple of months on the property
Lion released in a very small area less than 100 acres.

But bascially if the lion is not a PAC lion that comes from Bostwana to kill cattle and not hunted on a property next to the Kruger park it is basically quaraanteed that it's a canned lion.

Fredrik,

When we have a moment at Sabi over the comming bushveld bash and leeuloop weekend, please remind me to tell you about Piet S. He has (1) a big lion breeding operation on his home base farm in the Free State, (2) a very big and very tame male lion - tame enough to take for a walk on a lead and (3) a large hunting farm right on the Botswana border. (4) a Hunting Outfitters license in Limpopo.

He books "PAC lion hunts", but sometimes his plains game hunting clients, well those with sufficient $'s, are sometimes offered "PAC lion hunt on a lion that came through from Botswana". Needless to say the poor client is chased around for a few days "hot on the spoor" [of a lion led around on a long leash]. Invariably the spoor is lost in some high grass. Somehow the hunter just does not have the luck required to connect. Then, just when the client is getting really desparate and is running out of hunting days, a drugged lion bred on his Free state farm is released early one morning .......

I'm quite sure that a bit of digging and serious investigation of lion hunting farms right next to the Kruger National Park will reveal that there are also a few clever Piet S's in that area of our country! There is money to be made from lion hunting, BIG money, and "there is one fool born every minute...!"

I side with Saheed and err on the side of caution and advise as follow: Regard ANY lion hunt offered in South Africa as very suspect! [Here follows the legal anti-libel sentense: There may very well be perfectly legal and ethical free range lion hunts in South Africa......., but I do not know of any! I also don't know all the Hunting Outfitters that offer lion hunts!]

In good hunting.

Andrew McLaren

There's more than a few have mysteriously migrated across the borders as well.....

(IMO) there's no such thing as a truly wild Lion anywhere in SA. - At the very best, they're habituated to vehicles and people and at the worst, they don't know which way is up because they've been pumped so full of drugs.

The unfortunate thing is that there are a few people every year who get suckered in, and think they're hunting a wild Lion.

Ropes, yes it is legal at the moment still to hunt "canned Lions" in SA. I would also like to point out that canned Lions is still VERY much in demand, despite the uproar world wide about the right and wrong about this.....

Andrew, I know mr. PS, and I know of his operations.....you give the man to much credit, and it is not his farm on the botswana border, but someone elses. I can also say there are some good fair sport in that part of our country hunting lions as well....

Saeed's view on canned lions is well known, if you read his posts on the topic, and he has got a point...Mine do not differ much from his....Think about this...What is the difference between shooting a Waterbuck (or better a Lechwe) released hours prior to his "hunting" in the Free State, than that of a Lion released on 10 000 ha 92 hours before being hunted, in the Kalahari? For the record, I am also against shooting a Lion in a small camp, drugged or not, or from a vehicle or not.....Just Food for thought I would say....

Steve, I cannot believe you live in the Lowveldt, and claim there are not true wild lions in South Africa to hunt...They are very expensive, few and far in between, and Riaan at MPB do not give those permits easily, but your "homeground" is the only place to still hunt wild Lions in SA. I know because we have hunted them, and there was NOTHING cosmetic/caged about that hunt. There were a couple of lions that made the news in SA,2007, when they broke out into Venda.....killing cattle and scaring the sh..t out of the LP's. It took the authorities something like three months to shoot the last one. In my book that is honest, and true PAC Lions....Do you hunt the Mpumalanga conservancies?

Nothing was hurt South Africa's hunting reputation and African sport hunting industry more than CANNED lion killing.
As we know there will always be some people willing to break all moral and ethical boundary's for monetary gain!
Lion breeders and the people involve in this industry are not any different than drug dealers, they do it solely for money.

Don't worry about the anty hunters, Worry about the 10% people in this word not held by any ethical or moral boundary's.
They are the reason you will lose the right to hunt someday!

Charl,

I think you misread my post slightly. - However, I'm absolutely convinced there are no TRULY wild Lions anywhere in SA - As far as I'm concerned the Lions you're referring to, are habituated (because they see vehicles and people every day of their lives) rather than truly wild. - That doesn't make them any less dangerous, in fact, it could be said that it makes them more dangerous, but it doesn't make them truly wild. - FWIW, I've actually had quite a lot of experience of those Lion populations as I used to help the late Dr Kay Hiscocks (for some years) with her research work in the Lion Sands part of the reserve. - Most of the time, we were on foot rather than in a vehicle.

I also appreciate they get out from time to time. - We had two kicking around this area a few years until they got shot.

No I don't hunt Mpumalanga as it doesn't really have anything I want. I do most of my SA hunting in KZN and although I hold a DG licence there, I only hunt PG in SA as I prefer to do my DG hunting in true wilderness areas. - To put it bluntly, I bloody hate game fences at the best of times and feel a lot more strongly about them when it comes to DG.

In your opinion....ok. We look forward to see some pics from your clients and their DG towards the end of the season. Good hunting.

Thank You for all the replies I was just curious. Canned hunts are not my bag of tea nor in my tax bracket.

Three kids headed to college, an ex-wife, and the rising prices will probably cancel that dream.

Again Thank You for the answers,

John

I have been letting my son shoot date-expired canned green beans at the shooting range with his .222. The cans explode and make quite a mess, but the rangemaster does not mind as long as we clean up. Although not as sporting as shooting beans on the vine, the canned green bean shoot is nonetheless a lot of fun. So far the press has not picked up on this unsporting affair, but undoubtedly the BBC will be at my door asking for an interview any day.

Canned green bean hunts, hmmmmmmm....interesting.

Originally posted by Safari-Hunt:
"But you also get different kinds of canned hunts as well.
Drugged lion, Lion released the previous day and doesnt know his surrounding, Lion looking after himself for a couple of months on the property, Lion released in a very small area less than 100 acres."

To that list you can add "lion starved for three days, then released near a dead wildebeest twenty minutes before the client is led to the scene."

I would not shoot a lion in South Africa or anywhere in Namibia except the Caprivi (mine is from Zambia). Nyala shoots in Namibia and the South African provinces where this species never existed until brought over in trailers are equally awful.

Ditto for shooting kudu, sable, roan and other game animals bought at auction and released a week or a month before the client arrives.

Outfitters who sell such "hunts" are guilty of fraud when they take money from clients who believe they have taken a wild animal under fair chase conditons.

Bill Quimby

The Only crossing lion coming from Bot that I believe in the last 3 years was near Tolwe in Limpopo. This Lion was hunted by a PH as the client was only able to observe and it came up during a plain game hunt. The client wiseley decided to go on hunting eland a smart move and the PH let his apprentice take the track a dumb move. When dispatched 4 hours later the old male lion with little mane as it was living in the sicle brush and was found to have an old bullet lodged in its jaw.This is the ONLY lion that I believe the story of a border crossed and killed and then dispatched as this lion would never be available to a client. Now of course the apprentice got cocky and screwed the guy that took him to the US in January as he was off siphoning off clients with lion pics and promises of another lion by the Krueger (such scum in this business). I have been to Hoedspuit as many of you have and played with the very cubs on a place if you really in this business it is no great secret who it is a he loves great white sharks. There was no secret about the deal to the client as he was given a full tour of the operation and was informed. I was given the cold shoulder because the client declined and it was apperent that we need to go once it was established that no lion bucks were coming from me.

Bwanajcj did not point out that a lion on a 10,000 hectare place that is fed ocaisionally gives me the willys as these lion will kill you and in my no count opinion they are much more dangerous than a true free range animals He sees you as a strange animal that throws protien off its body and when you don't do that he will hunt and kill you. I have watched hunters after plains game be stalk by these lions with binos and I never sleep well when these guys are around.

quote:

I would not shoot a lion in South Africa or anywhere in Namibia except the Caprivi (mine is from Zambia).

billrquimby, there is plenty of wild lions in fenced and unfenced areas in Namibia outside of the Caprivi. Fenced properties around Etosha, as well as unfenced communal land around Etosha has more than a fair share of lions. Also, a lot of lions goes through the Kalahari Transfrontier Park fence(situated in SA and Botswana), and end up on fenced areas in Namibia bordering this park. I just sold 2 such males on an 60 000 acre fenced property that are causing problems. (Chasing tourist cars, scaring biltong hunters, etc.) These lions (about 4 years old according to their size) have been born on this place, has never been in captivity, has never been caught/ drugged/ tagged, has always depended solely on their parents or themselfs for their food. Their parents came through at least 5 years ago, on their own accord, and because the place are used as a hunting area (and not commercial farming), has found it a sanctuary. Their offspring however are a bit troublesome.
Now you tell me I run canned hunts? I think not. BTW, the 3rd member of this clan may still be available, if someone is interested.

Hunting Lion in South Africa=Fraud. Karl, yes. A shade of gray but one not to be considered if you value the lion as a member of the big five to be hunted honestly and fairly. Question Karl, does your lion have an option to be there or not?

Jeff

Etosha's lions pay little attention to the Etosha Fence when there are cattle or horses on the other side. They can dig under in a minute.

bwana bunduki, they stay there by choice. The fence is not electrified, or barbed, so they can, and some have gone through it. Look at teh pic of the fence that SGraves has posted. Lions can be contained by fences, but not of the type shown, which would be pretty standard for most fences (high or low) in Namibia. Hell, some are worse than that!

Gotcha. Thanks for the clarification.

Jeff

quote:

Originally posted by Karl S:

quote:

I would not shoot a lion in South Africa or anywhere in Namibia except the Caprivi (mine is from Zambia).

billrquimby, there is plenty of wild lions in fenced and unfenced areas in Namibia outside of the Caprivi. Fenced properties around Etosha, as well as unfenced communal land around Etosha has more than a fair share of lions. Also, a lot of lions goes through the Kalahari Transfrontier Park fence(situated in SA and Botswana), and end up on fenced areas in Namibia bordering this park. I just sold 2 such males on an 60 000 acre fenced property that are causing problems. (Chasing tourist cars, scaring biltong hunters, etc.) These lions (about 4 years old according to their size) have been born on this place, has never been in captivity, has never been caught/ drugged/ tagged, has always depended solely on their parents or themselfs for their food. Their parents came through at least 5 years ago, on their own accord, and because the place are used as a hunting area (and not commercial farming), has found it a sanctuary. Their offspring however are a bit troublesome.
Now you tell me I run canned hunts? I think not. BTW, the 3rd member of this clan may still be available, if someone is interested.

Karl S:

I stand corrected. I confess to basing my flawed observation on a visit to a very large property north of Windhoek this past June where lions were being raised in a 5,000-hectare fenced enclosure well inside the property. I have no idea how they were handled or if they lived in that place all their lives. I just know I personally would not hunt a lion there or anywhere they were not totally free-ranging.

Incidentally. I've spent some time along the Limpopo River in Botswana's Tuli Block on a friend's place where wild lions move in and out. When the river is nearly dry (as I've seen it) there is absolutely nothing that would keep lions from crossing into South Africa there.

Bill Quimby

Is anyone here going to answer Saeed's question?

How does hunting a canned Lion differ from hunting a SA Rhino? Isn't canned Rhino hunting credited with saving the White Rhino and supposed to be the only way to save the Black Rhino?

How does it differ from hunting animals bought at the auction and released on High Fence farms in the Free State or the Transvaal.

I have seen Farms offering Kudu and Eland in the 300 hectare range North of Jo-Burg. How is that not canned yet they do a thriving business filling in last minute animals for 'hunters' on their way to the airport.

I dont mind answering it there is not a bit of differnce its just board acceptable to bash it when ever it comes up.

Gator
Penned plains game verse penned lions?

At first glance I see no difference. It's not fair chase, all of the animals are out of their natural habitat and it's totally canned.
This is a stigma most South Africa outfitters fight everyday! At least with plains game the meat is salvaged and consumed.
With lions the only thing saved is the "trophy" ( I believe the meat cant be salvaged if it been drugged in the past )

Suggesting penned lion killing contributes to conservation, preservation or gene pools is a total joke. Most are to inbred to ever be used for any conservation or preservation efforts. Every wildlife conservation group and government wildlife agency in the US and Africa I know are publicly against it. Even SCI realized the threat penned lions hunts pose to Sport Huntings future.

The vast majority of people in the world are not hunters and even though most people are not hunters. They are not always against sport hunting, "When" it's used as a true conservation tool and done in a ethical manner. If we as hunters and sportsmen groups are unable or unwilling to govern ourselves. The anti's with the help of politicians will! Eventually this type of unethical hunting will lead to a total closure of all lion hunting.

Play Devils advocate as much as you want. Penned lion hunts will always be unethical !

How big an area must be fenced to be canned? How large an area does a lion normally (when " free range") use? Will they cover 50,000 acres in a normal travel cycle or do they need 1,000,000 acres?

Robert

I am not sure how old you are but I can remember back in the mid eighties when White Rhino were first allowed to be shot. They had been brought back from the brink by a few far sighted farmers in RSA and it was felt the next step needed to be an infusion of income to help support the re introduction of Rhino within RSA.

Boy the hullabaloo that resulted from the very thought of shooting a majestic animal like a Rhino in an enclosed area. It was deafening. Yet, many years later the Rhino can said to have been saved, by High Fence Shooting in a relatively small area.

How many people here think that the Lion can continue to be hunted at today's levels and still be sustainable? Not very Damn many, that's for sure. Shooting young Lions, shooting Lions from a pride and and increase in population pressure is dooming Wild Lions.

It won't be too many years before 'Canned Lions' will be looked on as a salvation and not an anchor

Gator 1,

I disagree with your stance. Pen lions are raised to be shot. End of story. They in no way are used to promote, protect or conserve the species. With the new recent ethos on 6 year lions being applied by the most reputable outfitters, the lion will survive in great shape. Question, how many free ranging white or black rhinos have been restored to their previous range? A percentage will suffice for an answer. I am sorry, there is a bit more to lion conservation measures in place than you seem to be aware of.

Jeff

Gator 1

I hope you won't mind me correcting you slightly about how both the black and the white rhino were saved from extinction. It was in many cases, the farmers who had a hand in the capture - but in actual fact it was the game departments/parks boards, particularly the KZN parks board (esp with the white rhino) who conducted the breeding and research programmes that led to the first ones being hunted.

Regarding Lions, the management of this species is a very complicated subject and there are occasions where it's perfectly acceptable to take pride holding males. - For example, if they're past breeding age or approaching that stage in their lives and if there are no dependent young and esp if there are younger strong males capable of holding a pride in the area waiting to take over.

All that said, I'm personally strictly against the entire concept of canned Lion hunting in all it's forms and believe anyone practicing such things should go straight to jail and afterwards tied to a tree for Leopard bait.
IMO, It's these practices that could easily mean the end of our sport. - and make no mistake about it, if we don't police our own hunting ethics, someone else will....... and they won't be hunters.

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:
Gator 1

I hope you won't mind me correcting you slightly about how both the black and the white rhino were saved from extinction. It was in many cases, the farmers who had a hand in the capture - but in actual fact it was the game departments/parks boards, particularly the KZN parks board (esp with the white rhino) who conducted the breeding and research programmes that led to the first ones being hunted.

Regarding Lions, the management of this species is a very complicated subject and there are occasions where it's perfectly acceptable to take pride holding males. - For example, if they're past breeding age or approaching that stage in their lives and if there are no dependent young and esp if there are younger strong males capable of holding a pride in the area waiting to take over.

All that said, I'm personally strictly against the entire concept of canned Lion hunting in all it's forms and believe anyone practicing such things should go straight to jail and afterwards tied to a tree for Leopard bait.
IMO, It's these practices that could easily mean the end of our sport. - and make no mistake about it, if we don't police our own hunting ethics, someone else will....... and they won't be hunters.

Steve

I don't disagree with your stance on canned Lion hunting. There is a huge digession between truth and perception and it is a hammer to be used against hunters.

quote:

....it's perfectly acceptable to take pride holding males. - For example, if they're past breeding age or approaching that stage in their lives and if there are no dependent young and esp if there are younger strong males capable of holding a pride in the area waiting to take over.

How do you know that they are (1) past breeding age, (2)approaching that stage (aren't we all?). or that (3)that there are indeed younger stronger males around to take over the pride?

If indeed there were younger, stronger males around capable of pushing this 'almost past breeding' lion out of the pride they would not need you to shoot him.

Add the pressure of a client who is paying $20-30,000 to shoot a Lion

This sounds like a PH justifying shooting pride males. Your justification on taking Pride Males is interesting, particularly in light of your business.

Bottomline

If someone buys an animal owned by someone else so they can kill it, most of us don't really care.

If someone calls that experience a "hunt", we get our self-righteous knickers in a twist.

I agree with Saeed. There is an "anti" agenda here. He makes several good points that I agree with.

Well we eat chickens killed in a pen, cows out of the pasture and so fourth.

I do not sell canned Lion hunts, I would not hunt a canned Lion, but I am of the school that its not such a bad thing.

It simply takes the pressure off the wild Lions and that is a fact, for every canned Lion killed one wild Lion lives, and also his cubs because when the Alpha male dies the new boy eats/em..

Life is just too simple for some folks to relate to. I try my best to keep it that way.

I don't know about hunting lions, never done it and never will probably, but if one were to take/kill a lion from fenced in area, "canned" if you will, does that lion receive same consideration for trophy status or entered into so called record books?? Is it so designated in the record book that the animal was taken in a "canned" situation?? If the area being hunted is many, many fenced acres and lion(s) free to roam in that area and tracked, killed "on foot" not being chased by vehicle, don't see a problem with that, but to pin one up or chase one down with a Rover, that provides no bragging rights or trophy status any way shape or form.
Did see a video of hunter killing a lioness in a pinned in area that looked about the size of a big back yard and that to me was not the right thing to do, but fully realize there are those out there that would defend such action. As for providing anti hunters with ammunition, that sort of behavior certainly does provide a lot of ammo for the anti's. In a different post on this site much discussion about shooting animals from vehicle and some mention of ethics. Ethics is something akin to vapors and whispers in the dark, but can tell you in the U.S., most areas anyway, shooting from the vehicle, loaded gun leaning up against the vehicle, loaded gun in the vehicle, etc. will get you a not so tailored striped set of clothing. Those who like to argue and fuss about such a situation might even fall down and lose a tooth or two while being transported to the county facility. Stranger things have happened. Ethics will not be a topic of discussion. Do not pass go, go directly to jail.
I fully understand in strange lands, practices and actions are different than in the U.S., the locals in the strange and foreign places also beat the evil out of the womens stomach when they are "heavy with child." Perhaps not always best to go along with local practices.

Gator1

It's quite simple. You need to know your areas, your prides and your individual Lions and Lionesses. - For example, one indicator, is if a pride is held by Lions that haven't fathered any cubs for 2 or 3 years, one can fairly assume they are firing blanks - even if they're not, if they're getting old and there are younger males in the area, who are capable of taking over, it's not a problem to take the old males. - One can, if one knows one's business, age a Lion by such factors as scars, musculature, body language, width of head and mane in relation to local standards etc. - One can tell if there are younger males waiting in the wings by the simple act of observation.

As to your comment ' If indeed there were younger, stronger males around capable of pushing this 'almost past breeding' lion out of the pride they would not need you to shoot him.' - You're partly right, there would indeed be no need to shoot him, but the same could be said of many, if not most animals that are hunted in Africa. Whilst there is no need to take him, doing do, won't harm the gene pool and nor will it harm the pride or the overall population...... therefore, if he's a good trophy, and will die soon anyway, he's a very appropriate animal to take..... esp if you can take him and his brother within a short time period..... in other words, on a rolling basis.

As to the pressure of a client paying whatever amount....... what pressure? Some PHs might make promises that can't be kept...... but not me. - I'll only promise to try my best. Any PH who promises anything else is a fool. My services are for sale to most people, but my ethics are not.

Regarding your last paragraph, there are many companies who would sack a PH for shooting the wrong Lion, but most also don't mind the taking of pride holders under the circumstances I've mentioned. Indeed, one of the very best and most expensive safari companies in Africa, (TGTS) sponsored a report on correct, scientific Lion management by some of the most reputable zoologists and Lion specialists in the business a few years ago. Names such as Professors/Doctors, Jeremy Anderson, Parker, Viljoen etc etc. That very report, which incidentally, must have cost a fortune and understandably is kept close to their chests, (but not close enough to stop me getting a peep!) approved the taking of pride holding Lions on a rolling basis under the principles I've mentioned. - I suggest you take a look at the TGTS website to check out the quality of the trophies taken in their areas..........

First off, someone needs to define what it is exactly. There has to be a standard set to determine exactly what is canned hunting, is it sticking a rifle through a hole in a fence and shooting an animal that is nearly incapable of moving? Is it shooting an animal that has 10 acres, 20....or 10,000 acres behind a high fence? Is it drugged, unfamiliar with the area?? Once defined as what it is then we can intelligently discuss the situation, and possible solutions. I for one have always been a free market kind of guy, if you can raise lions, and you can find an idiot with too much money willing to shoot it for $30,000 in a 10X10 cage then more power to you, but the reality is there is more to it than that. Like it or not we as hunters have an image within the public eyes, and questionable practices may play greatly into the future of our sport. I would hope that we all agree that protecting the sport is more important than one man getting a desireable trophy.

For my 2 cents, if an animal does not posess the desire,sense, or ability to escape me then it is not fair chase.

That's a good question and IMO a lot depends on personal opinion, and everyone is entitled to that.

I personally think it's easier to define what isn't a canned Lion. Therefore what isn't a canned Lion is a wild Lion. Even then, it's not always easy to differentiate. To me a truly wild Lion is one that comes from wild stock, was born wild, lives wild in a true wilderness area and rarely sees vehicles or people and never or virtually never encounters fences. You might find these in places such as the various areas of Tanzania and to a very slightly lesser extent, (because there are permenant human habitation in the area) the Zambezi Valley etc.

A step down from that are the habituated Lions that were born wild and live wild but are habituated to humans and vehicles because they see them on a regular basis. Often because they live in areas such as the KNP where they'll see (multiple) vehicles and people on a daily basis. - This doesn't necesarily make them any less dangerous etc, but it does make them habituated - and therefore they will behave differently to a truly wild Lion when faced with people or vehicles.

Anything else isn't a truly wild Lion and is therefore tainted with a degree of canning.

Ok heres a twist to consider. About 6 years ago I did a plains game hunt with CVS in Pilansberg Park in SA.It is a huge fenced facility with real live wild lions who feed themselves. Two or three of the resident lions were going to be hunted later that year. Specific animals were to be taken with park officials present. Canned hunt or legitimate?

LJS,

Sorry, but canned is the answer you are looking for. Again, does the lion have an option to be there? No...canned. Shakari's summations previous were succint and elegent. What he said...

Jeff

I don't think that the debate on "canned lion hunting" will go away any time soon. Our (Hunters) feelings on this subject is very srong. I believe this to be so because most of us have a great deal of respect for this beast. Robert Raurk in the introduction of "Horn of the Hunter" stated that most of us wonder what we would do if we encountered a Lion that escaped from a Zoo? A lion will always be a lion! Is it dangerous to hunt a lion in a large enclosed area? Would it be any more dangerous to bait a "wild lion" then to stalk a "canned" lion in a large enclosure? Is it wrong if a hunters dream is to hunt lions, but a trip to a "wild lion" area is way out of his means? These are questions that the Lion Hunter must ask himself. I think that we can all agree that shooting a lion (rhino, or any other Big Game animal for that matter) in a small enclosure, at night, or one that has been drugged is deplorable. If you could track a Lion on foot with your favorite rifle in a large area would you? If you are a lion hunter, or your dream is to hunt the African Lion I'm pretty sure I Know what your answer would be.

Think about this.
Does this type of killing help the world wide image of African sport hunting and it's future?
If Sportsmen and wildlife agencies look the other way and allow this type of activity to go on, Will it help their reputations?