Mainstream media Gentlemen.

One word . . . OOPS!

NEW YORK, Aug. 24, 1998 � At the CIA, it happens often enough to have a codename: Blowback. Simply defined, this is the term that describes an agent, an operative or an operation that has turned on its creators. Osama bin Laden, our new public enemy Number 1, is the personification of blowback. And the fact that he is viewed as a hero by millions in the Islamic world proves again the old adage: Reap what you sow.

Let me concede some points. Yes, the West needed Josef Stalin to defeat Hitler. Yes, there were times during the Cold War when supporting one villain (Cambodia�s Lon Nol, for instance) would have been better than the alternative (Pol Pot). So yes, there are times when any nation must hold its nose and shake hands with the devil for the long-term good of the planet. But just as surely, there are times when the United States, faced with such moral dilemmas, should have resisted the temptation to act. Arming a multi-national coalition of Islamic extremists in Afghanistan during the 1980s - well after the destruction of the Marine barracks in Beirut or the hijacking of TWA Flight 847 - was one of those times.

BIN LADEN�S BEGINNINGS

As anyone who has bothered to read this far certainly knows by now, bin Laden is the heir to Saudi construction fortune who, at least since the early 1990s, has used that money to finance countless attacks on U.S. interests and those of its Arab allies around the world.

Osama bin Laden�s network

As his unclassified CIA biography states,bin Laden left Saudi Arabia to fight the Soviet army in Afghanistan after Moscow�s invasion in 1979. By 1984, he was running a front organization known as Maktab al-Khidamar -the MAK - which funneled money, arms and fighters from the outside world into the Afghan war. What the CIA bio conveniently fails to specify (in its unclassified form, at least) is that the MAK was nurtured by Pakistan�s state security services, the Inter-Services Intelligence agency, or ISI, the CIA�s primary conduit for conducting the covert war against Moscow�s occupation. By no means was Osama bin Laden the leader of Afghanistan�s mujahedeen. His money gave him undue prominence in the Afghan struggle, but the vast majority of those who fought and died for Afghanistan�s freedom- like the Taliban regime that now holds sway over most of that tortured nation - were Afghan nationals. Yet the CIA, concerned about the factionalism of Afghanistan made famous by Rudyard Kipling, found that Arab zealots who flocked to aid the Afghans were easier to �read� than the rivalry-ridden natives. While the Arab volunteers might well prove troublesome later, the agency reasoned, they at least were one-dimensionally anti-Soviet for now. So bin Laden, along with a small group of Islamic militants from Egypt, Pakistan,Lebanon, Syria and Palestinian refugee camps all over the Middle East, became the �reliable� partners of the CIA in its war against Moscow.
WHAT�S �INTELLIGENT� ABOUT THIS?

Though he has come to represent all that went wrong with the CIA�s reckless strategy there, by the end of the Afghan war in 1989, bin Laden was still viewed by the agency as something of a dilettante - a rich Saudi boy gone to war and welcomed home by the Saudi monarchy he so hated as something of a hero.

America strikes back

In fact, while he returned to his family�s
construction business, bin Laden had split from the relatively conventional MAK in 1988 and established a new group, al-Qaida, that included many of the more extreme MAK members he had met in Afghanistan.
Most of these Afghan vets,or Afghanis, as the Arabs who fought there became known,turned up later behind violent Islamic movements around the world. Among them: the GIA in Algeria, thought responsible for the massacres of tens of thousands of civilians; Egypt�s Gamat Ismalia, which has massacred western tourists repeatedly in recent years; Saudi Arabia Shiite militants, responsible forthe Khobar Towers and Riyadh bombings of 1996. Indeed, to this day, those involved in the decision to give the Afghan rebels access to a fortune in covert funding and top-level combat weaponry continue to defend that move in the context of the Cold War. Sen. Orrin Hatch, a senior Republican on the Senate Intelligence Committee making those decisions, told my colleague Robert Windrem that he would make the same call again today even knowing what bin Laden would do subsequently. �It was worth it,� he said. �Those were very important, pivotal matters that played an important role in the downfall of the Soviet Union,� he said.
HINDSIGHT OR TUNNEL VISION
It should be pointed out that the evidence
of bin Laden�s connection to these activities is mostly classified, though its hard to imagine the CIA rushing to take credit for a Frankenstein�s monster like this. It is also worth acknowledging that it is easier now to oppose the CIA�s Afghan adventures than it was when Hatch and company made them in the mid-1980s. After all, in 1998 we now know that far larger elements than Afghanistan were corroding the communist party�s grip on power in Moscow. Even Hatch can�t be blamed completely. The CIA, ever mindful of the need to justify its �mission,� had conclusive evidence by the mid-1980s of the deepening crisis of infrastructure within the Soviet Union. The CIA, as its deputy director William Gates acknowledged under congressional questioning in 1992, had decided to keep that evidence from President Reagan and his top advisors and instead continued to grossly exaggerate Soviet military and technological capabilities in its annual �Soviet Military Power� report right up to 1990. Given that context, a decision was made to provide America�s potential enemies with the arms, money - and most importantly - the knowledge of how to run a war of attrition violent and well-organized enough to humble a superpower. That decision is coming home to roost.

Michael Moran is MSNBC�s
International Editor

Antonio,

Surprisingly, I am usually not that argumentative. This thread has probably brought out the worst in me. I certainly respect your opinion with regard to the Mexican revolution (it is your country after all) but it seems to me that the historic figures that come to be viewed as heroic and "freedom fighters" undoubtedly caused civilian casualties.
Further, I believe that since the U.S. upped the ante in the Vietnam War with so-called "free fire zones", the definition of a "combatant" has been expanding. Since then, The U.S. has been responsible for a modern sh!&load of potentially unavoidable "collateral damage" since it is tough to know who your enemies are anymore so . . . why should we be surprised when some groups come to view all U.S. citizens as "combatants". Sad, but it's the current state of the world and not just Muslim fundamentalism.

[This message has been edited by JohnTheGreek (edited 09-13-2001).]

USA have suffered a horrible act of terror and I really feel for the near and dear of the wictims all around US and the rest of the world.....

It�s hard to understand that a group of people can work together for a long time and plan a diabolic plan like this and nothing leaks out. I really hope the terrorists that didn�t died in the plane crashes will be hunted down and brougth to justise.

Violant revenge is one of the first things that come into most humans mind in a situation like this. I feel a bit unsecure about that solution though. Of course I wouldnt cry if the remaining terrorist would be gunned down while captured. I�m not all that sertain that a military attack would be a good solution though. In a war the civilians always are the group of people in the worst situation. I think the history have proven that all to many times allready. I don�t have a good alternative but my opinion is that a big military "revenge operation" is going to do more harm than good in the long run.

Many may consider me a whimp for these standpoints, but this is the way i feel about this.

My condoleanses to all the famalys and friends of the victims.

Stefan Karlsson

Stefan,

I agree that a measured response is needed. This problem has no easy "push the button" solutions. Dealing with terrorists on a one-to-one basis is a messy business but that is exactly what has to be done. Back to basics, down in the streets intelligence and tactics at the ground level over a protracted, long period of time is what will reap the benefits for sustained security IMHO. A quick attack may be a satisfying "eye for an eye" but largely ineffective because these bastards are too dispersed. Cutting off their money, sources of recruits, training camps, safe harbors, sources of weapons, etc, etc is very time consuming but ultimately the most effective. RJ

Saeed

I agree with your last posting we must fine the right people that did this and the people that finance them this along with the harboring countries and do a way with them. I and most the people in America do not blame the Arabs and Muslims for what happen here.Saeed thank you for being here and standing with us in the USA to see justice done.

The moderate Muslims in most of these countries know what their radical brothers have been doing. Until pressure is brought on the moderates, we will continue to only receive condolences and words of sorrow. Even if they turn over Bin Laden, it is not enough. The mechanism and the army is still out there waiting to strike.

The machine must be destroyed and the moderate Muslims must identify all their brothers that are associated with the export of terrorism. Platitudes and tough talk are worthless to us at this time. No more smiles. No more peace offerings. We simply want those responsible - from the lowliest solider to the financiers.

If this were a drug war - Bin Laden is the thug on the street corner operating a gang of heroin dealers. We want the dealers, the suppliers, the transporters, the manufacturers, the growers, the bankers, the lawyers, and the government officials facilitating the trade. We want them all dancing from the end of a rope. We will not be satisfied until ALL are brought to justice - whether it be by knife, fiery death, bullet, gas, NCB, electrocution, lethal injection, or microwave oven.

Zero,
Well stated my friend!!

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

Stefan spoken like a true citizen of a nation that has never been attacked in modern times, if ever.

Spoken like a true citizen of a nation that has never sent houndreds of thousands to foreign shore's to fight for the freedom of other's, to fight for an idea. An idea, BTW, that my ancestor's in Sweden enjoy every day.

That freedom of your's would not be there if it wasnt for the United states of America. It is we who have carried that mantle, with good friends, and have fought and died for it in many places of the world.

While I appreciate your kindness please try to understand that we have just suffered a devestating attack, have lost many 1,000's of our people, and have had our vital economic,military, and Political center's targeted by an enemy that is supported by countries whom are our enemies.

I guess anywhere but Sweden that means war.

Its a war I'd rather see my country win then lose. The Swede's arent exactly worried a group of terr's are going to set off a suitcase nuke in one of your cities are you ?

So dont look to much down on us if we'd rather fight then roll over and die, even if its inconvienient to the rest of the world.

I dont care what any pacivist Eauropean thinks. I want my child to have a future, and I want my Nation's enemy's destroyed.............10

I think SafariOfTheMind is right on the spot. The response should be war against terrorists no doubth about that.

10point.
Don�t misunderstand me I�m greatful of the efforts USA have made in the past to help nations in need. But I�m convinsed that war in traditional mening is a extreme bad solution of any problem.

I will not continue to argue about this matter here. This tread have brougth up some sad "dirt throwing" that we useally don�t se here

It�s not the time or place to be unpolite or rude to eatch other. I have not taken any ofence here yet and I hope I dont have to in the future.

Stefan Karlsson.

There is no dirt throwing between us Stefan, nor will there be. I simply want our countries enemy's destroyed.

It would be a much better world if there were more people like you but unfortunately there isnt.

I dont even care about "blood" or , "Blood for Blood". That isnt in the picture, only Total Victory is. Take care....10

10point.

I didn�t mean you when I was talking about "throwing dirt" here!!!

The tone in earlyer posts in this tread have been a bit agressive and it useally doesn�t use to be that way here at accurate reloading. None mentioned none forgotten.

Best regards.

Stefan.

Stefan,

First let me say that your original post was, by far, one of the most well-reasoned and thankfully lacked the vengeful tone presented by most on this thread.
Second, I agree that the mud-slinging on this board was totally inappropriate. But I think 10 point so eloquently referring to me as an "ass-maggot" definitely qualifies as mud-slinging. Keep working on those vocabulary tests 10 point, sooner or later you will learn to spell C-O-N-S-T-I-T-U-T-I-O-N.

JohnTheGreek

The point that Stefan was attempting to make is a situation that I am concerned about in our military response. Here is an example that explains the concern -

During the war in Vietnam, if we kill one innocent South Vietnamese, we instantly turned their entire family into NVA regulars.

The few radical Muslims responsible for international terrorism have not attacked the moderates. There are no car bombings in Riyadh, San�a, Abu-Dhabi. As a result, the moderates have allowed their radical brothers to live and operate amongst them. If we start carpet bombing the entire area and kill a large percentage of moderates, you have just turned the moderates into radicals. Rather than facing a small percentage of the whole, you are now looking at the vast majority of the country hell bent our demise. The problem and threat becomes magnified.

Look into your own heart for the answer - After Tuesday�s attack, we now want to now kill ALL of them. Not only the responsible, but every Muslim. Guess what, kill a few innocent Muslims and the problem becomes magnified to such a proportion that we will be fighting the entire Middle East.

The solution is to garner the support of all moderates to eradicate the radicals. We must focus our entire attention and assets on the guilty and their supports. When this is finished, we give the moderates a warning - Either self-police your problem brothers, or we will. If you cannot control them, we will begin covert executions every time we even get a whiff of trouble.

When you find one cockroach in your kitchen you don�t let it go. Nor do you burn your kitchen down to kill the one cockroach. As soon as you see one, you kill it. You don�t wait for them to out breed your ability to control them.

Our mistake has been to allow these people to exist. While we have known who they are, we have succumbed to international pressure to not act on our information until something happened. We must once again become proactive rather than reactive.

[This message has been edited by Zero Drift (edited 09-14-2001).]

Name calling is not necessary.

Keep in mind that consitutional guarantees doe not apply outside the US borders. If Colin Powell wants to kill someone, he can, and he will not be accountable.

(However, Henry Kissinger is being sued for human rights violations for killing a Chilean general).

Hey I hear air service has been re-stored to Athen's. The American people are giveing an "ass-maggot" discount to all traitor's "no better place then Greece for them"......10

rwj,
No, I never served in the armed services..I was exempt as I was on the Texas border, So. America, Mexico, and the middle East... and other foreign posts with the Federal Drug Administration...I was an Narcotic Agent for 43 years, retired from both state and Federal,thats how I got in this business I'm now in...from contacts made while in Africa (Sudan).....Oh yes, and I have seen my share of combat and most of it face to face, spitting distance with the enemy.....Most of my career was in an undercover capacity, and the Organized Crime Taskforce (Mex. branch) until the last few years of service, when I was retired to a desk, thats when I got out.

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

500 grains,
Thanks for noting the Kissinger suit! I would wager you are one of three or four people on this thread who knows of this and is willing to admit it after the ration of shit I took over the last week.

10point,
Does this mean that you are springing for my next trip to Athens? I would love to see my relatives! And to be able to do this on a cop salary shows so much initiative on your part. What's your sideline . . . shaking down schoolyard bullies for their lunch-money?

JohnTheGreek

[This message has been edited by JohnTheGreek (edited 09-17-2001).]

John the Geek,
When you find yourself in a hole, the best way to get out of it is to quit digging...

Police officers rate pretty high with us on this board..About a hundred of them just gave us their all and 10 point would do the same should the call arise...

Why don't you just cool it....

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

Ray, I appreciate it, but lets not even bother with this guy. We know who he is and where he stand's.

The funny thing is its guy's like him that have to "step-up" now and carry some of this weight we have always carried, both as LEO's and as servicemen. I always thought I was a fool for devoting so much of my life to the safety and freedom of other's , Until, That is, I saw those airplanes go thru those BLDNG's.

I know many guy's who have never taken a risk in their lives, have never even given a thought to their own safety, let alone that of other's. I also, as you do, know many that have sacraficed all.

Its the guy's that never have that have to "step-up" now. Even if it means just by going to work and keeping one eye open to make sure their fellow countryman is OK, and by being un-afraid.

And I think they will, they will do whatever they have to do, all they have been waiting for was a call, and a cause. I draw strength from The many on this forumn who have never been in the service,or an LEO, or whatever. The strength of this country has ALWAYS been its citizen's. We saw that on that Penn aircraft when those "common citizen's" decided they would rather fight and die then be sheep and be ran into the Whitehouse........HERO'S ALL OF THEM!!!!!

And thats why Ive always been so "Pro-2nd amendment". A strong and armed citizenry is our only garuntee of freedom.

So lets just forget this guy , Hell, If he wants to join us and rally around the flag he is still welcome. We have to stand united, this is all bigger then any of us and the good of the country must come first...........God Bless all........10

Ray,

I don't look at it as digging. I have just adopted the 10point philosophy of attack and immediate retaliation. Further, I have nothing but respect for those who make the kind of sacrifices that were made last week and are still being made today in the wake of the event. That goes for the civilian, LEO, and military populations. I will, however, not just happily or silently take ignorant sh!t from anyone, badge or not.

10,
Thanks for the invitation, but I'm not really interested in joining you. We clearly have two different ideas about what patriotism is and that's fine with me.

JohnTheGreek

Good discussion.

I propose expelling all foreign nationals from the "suspect" countries. They should report to the nearest police station and be sent home via a small, slow boat.

Not a single terrorist carried a U.S. passport.

SkiBumplus3

OK I have been avoiding speaking up here but this is starting to get ridiculous.

Ski, This is not the solution! No "Not a single terrorist carried a U.S. passport" but that does not solve the problems we had with the dick head in OK. This problem is not with one group it is with quite a few that do not have a common religion or race. We can talk about McVeigh in OK, is he representative of all people in the US? Absolutely NOT!!!! He was no different than these ASS HOLES who brought this on in back east. They all need to be eradicated regardless of race or religion. There is no room in the US or any other country on earth for these types of people.

We have to remember these ass wipes are not representative of the entire Islamic world. They are a small minority that needs to be taken care of swiftly and decisively to ensure the safety of all mankind, not only in the US.

As for the bickering about the US brought this them selves, this is bullshit!!! There is nothing that could justify these types of actions. There are NO excuses or explanations it will not be tolerated!

I urge that all take action against the enemy AND THIS IS NOT THE ISLOMIC WORLD!!!!! It is a small faction that is no different than McVeigh or any other group that has created havoc to any of our neighbor's abroad.

Guests,

Dont get caught up in this "innocent civilians" sob story which some espouse to ... have we not learnt anything from the past conflict when fighting "terrorists" .... the whole basis of the terrorists mindset and plan of action is to indiscriminately and purposfully cause terror and mayhem particularily amongst civilians and then sit back and EXPECT the soft touch from shall we say the more liberal minded peoples of the world whom dont understand the nature of war ... that ploy is always used to ward of retaliation and is a classic cry which then if followed to the letter of the law restricts us in our self defence ... it only lends more credence to the terrorists to continue on their wicked way .... having been through the bush war in Rhodesia that classic mindset of dont hit back because of the civilians that might be hurt or killed is just exactly what the terrorists want, I have experienced it first hand, that way they have a safe haven amongst their civilian population .... of cource I dont want one innocent civilian to die BUT remember the terorists dont follow any rules and they have the high ground and surprise to attack at will without any care, and we have to "in theory" obey some foolish rule that says we cant strike back because of the civilian damage ... tell me how do we fight back with one hand tied behind our back .... dont get caught up in that oudated thinking otherwise we will never win the battle ...

Regards, Peter

I posted this over on HA. It is real appropriate to this discussion. It reflects an evolution in my thinking. I still think we have to take it to them, but we got to be smarter about it.

I have given some serious thought to this attack, and our response to it. I have listened to some really informed persons talk. (How come they only put the smart ones on after 11:00pm?) And I am just beginning to reach some conclusions about this act, the challenge to us are a people and culture, and what I believe we are being called to do.

First, our primary mission must be to stop terrorism as a tactic and strategy. This requires that we immediately become a harder target. We have lived in the clouds too long, beliving that our wealth would protect us. We do not have to surrender any of our rights, but we do need to get our heads out of rectal defilade about "racial" profiling, and other nonsensical drum beats.

Second, we must use all the means at our disposal to do this. Although the most satisfying to use right now, the military options are potentially the least productive for the long run. Let us share our knowledge about these barbarians. Let us publicize their actions. They are not Muslims-they do not follow the teachings of Mohammed. They are apostates.

Third, we must avoid this becoming a "crusade" or a "war" against Islam. This would be easy to do purposefully or accidentally, and it would have tragic and profound consequences. We need to enlist the assistance of Muslim states and particularly clerics to cast these people out of the society of People of the Book.

Fourth, we can accomplish all of the above, if we approach the task with patience and without vengance. It is easy for me to move towards vengance; quoting myself on this board, to nuc 'em til they glow, then shoot 'em in the dark. However, this will not accomplish the mission. We must keep the mission firmly in mind and avoid actions which compromise it.

We need to take the head off the snake(s); put the grab on their money; and build up an intelligence network that prevents their operating effectively. We need to isolate them, and eradicate them. But the nature of this fight will not produce great combat footage of burning tanks or building collapsing. Our greatest successes will be shared only within the intel community.

We must look at these events as an opportunity. It provides a chance for us to rethink some issues. The FAA and airlines had reached a impasse on scheduling flights in the Northeast. There was too much air traffic. Perhaps this is the time for a resurgency of railways. If you have to wait two hours to catch a flight; fly an hour; take an hour to collect your gear and get a car; maybe it would be better to take the train! Granted, you could attack a train; but it is difficult to crash them into buildings. Is travel necessary at all. We have the technology for video conferencing. It is a wonderful technology. Let's color outside the box.

What are these people are saying about us? We are too materialistic. I note that they made money selling short, but I think about their attack on the center of our financial might, and I realize that I have put too much faith in Wall Street. I know in my heart that is wrong; that my faith must be in God. I know that it is just as wrong to put my faith in armed might. God gave me the ability to reason, not react, like other animals. Let me use all my talents to confound and defeat my foe. Death is not the only answer.

I was channel surfing last night, and was shocked and offended by the "entertainment" provided on our TV. Granted, I use my right to skip these channels, but our TV has become soft porn and "semi-hard" porn. And this is on MTV! I can understand why some foreign cultures and conservative ministers think we've gone to the devil. Perhaps we do need to look at where we have gone morally. Did our "decay" cause this event? No. Does being focused on sex and money help us in our fight? Also, no.

I believe that this conflict is between good and evil, building and destruction, loving and hating. I admit, I cannot turn the other cheek. We have tried to be peace makers; we have turned the other cheek; and we have tried to be tolerant. But I refuse to hate all Muslims or Arabs. I refuse to lower myself to making war on innocents. But I will shelter my love ones; I will guard my rights; and I will protect my country with every weapon that I have at my disposal.

Restraint is not an option; it is a requirement. These barbarians did not accomplish their evil by going off half-cocked. They planned; trained; schemed; and executed their attack with precision and secrecy. We will not succeed by failing to do the very same things. We must defeat these eivl people, but we must also redirect the hearts and minds of those who would follow them and who look at them as heroes. This is psy-ops, but it is also telling the truth. We are a positive force. They are a negative one. And we need to get the word out. These "Islamic" warriors spent their last night out drinking and lap-dancing. Let's let the world know about their heroes. Ku-dude

[This message has been edited by ku-dude (edited 09-19-2001).]