Ray,
I don't consider my remarks to be unamerican in the least. I never said that the U.S. deserved what happened yesterday. Clearly this is not the case! I simply said that, given our foreign policy history, and the nature of the world today, the severity of act was not terribly surprising. This was a sentiment repeated by many a liberal and conservative yesterday. Further, I have a hard time seeing this remark as unamerican since this nation was founded on the concept of government criticism. What did Jefferson say, a good revolution every 30 years or so?

10point
Before you criticize Greek combat skill and bravery, you should read your WWII history. There is a very nice quote from Winston Churchill that he offered after the battle of Crete. He Said, "It is not appropriate to say that the Greeks fight like heroes. It is more appropriate to say that heroes fight like Greeks".

Its a war against Terrorist's and Terrorist harboring states. 51 years ago the nuclear genie was let out of the Bottle, its nothing new. Hell, even the Jap's had the decency not to bomb civilian American targets, well, decency had nothing to do with it. But they didnt do it.

I wonder if the rest of the world really think's were kidding when Americans on this forumn are demanding the anihalation of this threat, and these countries, with the use of nuclear weapon's ?

Were not kidding ; We mean it! And the American people will support it. I truly believe we will support a Declaration of War and the complete destruction of the infrustructure's of these countries until they cease to exist as Political entity's.

We did it before you know, ask the Jap's..............10 "A proud US Vet"

and a shot message for John The Greek may you get inching "piles" so bad that you have to scratch with both hands and this will keep you away from your keyboard and making a fool of yourself again---- Herb

The fallout from the use atomic weapons is my only issue....Luckily the US has the military might to inflict similar levels of damage use conventional weapons...Carpet bombing by B52's carrying fuel-air explosives
is one way which springs to minds. If you've ever seen pictures of the German cities fire bombed by the Allies in WW11 you'll know what I mean.

Pete

To repeat what I said in another thread our so called "mideast friends" will not let us use their airspace or ground facilities for the conduction of this war. Maybe Turkey will....maybe,as they are bound By NATO Article's of cooperation and defense, and maybe Israel.

We retired most of our B-52's, the only ones capable of reaching that theatre are based on Guam. To put it simply we just dont have the non-nuclear asset's, or the available facilities, to pursue and win a conventional war in that part of the world.

Remember how long it took to get those asset's into place for The Gulf War ? And that was with the full cooperation of the Gulf countries, which we wont now get.

Maybe my definition of "War" is different from other's but it doesnt mean a "return punitive strike" ; It means "the complete elimination of the threat to my country".

The only way to remove this threat is to "destroy it", not "punish it". We have to eliminate the Political entity behind the act.

Fellas all Terrorism is "State Sponsored", there is no other kind. No group such as that could possibly arm, train, and operate without the aid of a Host Country.

We know who these countries are. They should be given the opportunity to cooperate fully, as in "Surrendering", or to be given the choice of being "eliminated".

Thats my definition of "War" ; Its something that you should "Win" useing any weapons at your disposal.

I understand exactly what Im talking about friends. I lived around, and protected, our strategic and tactical "special weapon's" deterrance for a big chunk of my life.

If we can do it without them fine, but I dont think we can, and I know a little bit about what Im talking about. If we find out what country, or country's were behind this, and we will, then we should remove those countries from the World of civilized Nation's, and the Map, useing all weapons at our disposal, includeing nuclear.......God Bless America and all of you.........10

It's kind of ironic how we and a couple of other guy's were only dicussing terrorism here a few days ago. You know my feelings on the subject and I hope that the people of this site who gave tact support to the terrorist atrocities of the IRA now see them in another light...Both London and Manchester
have been ripped apart by giant car bombs in the past, but luckily not on the scale which has occured yesterday in the US.
As I say the only reservation I have about the use of atomic weapons is the radioactive fall out which will travel around the world.
I believe the Uncle Sam is mustering a couple of carrier groups in the Gulf now...From these alone they can unlesh tremdus firepower....but what at??? If Afganistan is the target, their own Government has pretty much taken them back to the stone age....I'm not sure what the answers are and my opinion counts for nothing now anyway...it is down to your President to carry out the will of the American people in whatever way he feels appropriate...

I'm watching the TV as I write this...I really wish we could do something "practical" to help the people of New York and Washington right now...We are truely shocked to the core and horrified by these events. I'm not a religious person, but I did say a quiet prayer for those people caught up in this.

I know the American people will prevail....

Pete

No offense taken at that point, I figured you had committed a typo there.
Regarding potential reading material. I am not suggesting you read an Amnesty Int'l publication. To be perfectly honest, a lot of AI stuff is just too whiny for me.
Killing Hope by William Blum, however, is a brilliant and meticulously well cited work detailing dozens of foreign policy SNAFUs committed by the U.S. that were at least, unconstitutional and, at most, inhuman.

Before people blow up again, let me AGAIN say that I don't believe anyone deserved to die yesterday, only that U.S. foreign policy since WWII didn't do much to discourage the inevitability of the tragedy.

JohnTheGreek

Ray, when did you serve and with which branch of service? Certainly you had to have served in Viet Nam.

P.S.
CNN just reported that two people have been "detained" for questioning in the U.S. with U.A.E. passports. Hey 10point, since you're such a bad a$$ why don't you put on some fatigues and go looking for evidence in Saeed's back yard. Look out for the .577 T-rex!

It is really nice to see the international support here. Not unexpected, but nice.

I like the analogy regarding stereotyping all Americans as McVeigh-like being comparable to assuming all Muslims are like Bin Laden. I hope we are all civilized and adult enough to focus our wrath on those that are guilty.

Canuck

One bit of personal opinion here. The airlines are not yet operating until new measures are implemented. CNN reports that security will be very tight (as it should be) and delays will happen to travelers. A host of items will not be allowed in carry on baggage, fingernail clippers and any edged item.
It would seem to me that the most important change should be that no one has access to the cockpit of any plane. Door should be locked before takeoff and not opened until plane is empty after landing. That alone would have averted the largest loss of life of this tradgedy. For this to be implemented, planes would need to be redesigned with private restroom and food & beverage capacity for the flight crew. Hind sight is 20/20, but I wonder if anyone has brought this up before. Maybe even add an armed marshal to the cockpit crew incase someone tries to breech the door.

[This message has been edited by DaveC (edited 09-13-2001).]

rwj,
I have great respect for anyone who survived Viet Nam in the service of our country. My Dad served there in '66-'67 when he was in his mid thirties. He came home with his black hair turned white. Viet Nam vets did not get the respect they deserved. I grew up an Air Force "brat" and served 4 years as an Air Force flight surgeon, but not in war. I tried to go to war by attending West Point in 1972-1973. But the government simply called it off in November of 1972, so being the "smart 17 year old" I was then, I figured if the government could resign from the war, then I could resign from West Point. Some of the problems with Viet Nam came about because of the kind of thinking that JohnTheGeek is displaying.

JohnTheGeek,
This is no typo. I believe I was the first to call you by this name (and I am pleased that some others have repeated it) when I pointed out how infuriating your whining was. Hence I laughed out loud when I read your comment about AI being "whiny."

You are the whiner, Geek. This means that your expressions have a "tone of childish or weak or mean complaint; as the whine of a beggar; hence mean or unmanly complaint."

I was hoping you would single me out for some of your whining. I am disappointed.

As(s) for your proud Greek heritage, you shame it. Do you like it Greek style? Since you are indeed the perfect asshole, I think you need the perfect rectal exam, with the toe of my boot. It's called deep boot Greek therapy.

------------------
Good huntin', shootin', and spear chuckin',
RAB

OK, since we are apparently back in Jr. High and regarding Greek style . . . I suppose you should know that I loved giving it your mother that way!

John

------------------
Good huntin', shootin', and spear chuckin',
RAB

I consider all terrorist harboring states culpable and the enemy, ALL OF THEM! Put one of those countries up in flames and you'll be surprised at how fast the rest cooperate. Remember I always said that the IRA was an organization that drew its power from the use of terror and not thru popular support.

There is simply no connection between the two scenerio's, none. BTW I thank God we have friends like the Brit's right now. It is a comfort to us here in America to have such a people behind us.

R.A. dont even reply to that commie. He's not worth it, he showed his stripes, or , lack of them..........10

CK

Tex

quote:

---

Originally posted by JohnTheGreek:
Before people blow up again, let me AGAIN say that I don't believe anyone deserved to die yesterday, only that U.S. foreign policy since WWII didn't do much to discourage the inevitability of the tragedy.

JohnTheGreek[/B]

---

Yep, what the Americans and the rest of the allies did after WWII was evil...things like rebuilding their enimies countries.

Seriously, sure the USA has been a world wide bully from time to time. And they've messed with other countries, and played dirty tricks. Please point out a country or government that is beyond reproach.

As one of the USA's closest neighbors, I can say the US really pisses me off sometimes, especially when they try to push us around, we who are their neighbors and probably best buddies.

However, anything bad the USA does is far outweighed by the good. The USA is one of the most benevolent countries of all time, and I am happy to be their northern neighbor. I couldn't ask for better neighbors.

I've heard people talk the way John the Greek does.. "shouldn't be surprised" or "rather than retaliate, let's find the root cause of the problem and work it out diplomatically." So anytime someone wants to enter into diplomatic talks with the USA the proper etiquitte is to BLOW SOMETHING UP? No fucking way.

The group that did this must be identified, and eliminated. Any country that trys to harbour the terrorists should have war made upon them. And war should be declared on terrorists- if you belong to a terrorist group, you will be killed- no jury, no appeal.

(Sorry about the language, but sometimes you have to go to the point of swearing to make your point.)

It will be necessary to take out the terrorists and their camps whereever they might be. It may be necessary to take out the regimes that have supported them. It will be necessary to neutralize these regimes.

Achieving our goals will be best accomplished by the use of all our considerable economic, diplomatic and military power. But those countries and movements that support the other side should be immediately put on the possible hostile list; targeted militarily, politically and economically; and, if necessary, attacked. But in the end, all the rogue states and all the terrorists will have to be neutralized. Ku-dude

Ku-dude

You fellows had me laughing so hard that I knocked over my beverage.

"...Please point out a country or government that is beyond reproach..."

I am afraid the answer to your question my friend is very simple.

There is NONE!

I think we are side tracking the issue at hand - fighting terrorism at its roots, wherever it is found.

Sadly, a few people posting on many forums on the internet are losing sight of reality, and blaming all Arabs and Muslims for this atrocity.

The sight of those demonstrations in the West bank are just as abhorant to most of us as they are to everyone who value human life, freedom, and believes in God.

This is the work of mad men, who have no concept of the God all Christians, Jews and Muslim believe in.

I am an Arab and a Muslim, and among my very best friends are Christians, Jews and others who probably do not believe in any God. We celebrate our happy days together, and we share each others grief on those days when one of us touched by a personal tragedy.

I am sure the culprits will be found, and I hope they get the punishment they deserve.

------------------
saeed@ emirates.net.ae

www.accuratereloading.com

You are quite correct about the scale of the attacks...I'm simply saying you know my stance on Terrorism and why....

I also know that but by the Grace of God one of those planes could have been targeted at London....

The "good news" is that Tony Blair and Lord Riobinson at Nato seem to be giving President Bush the unqualified support the British people are demanding....

We started getting reports that many hundreds of British people have been killed in the Twin Towers....hopefully this will concenrate the minds of any of our bleeding heart liberals....

Pete

In Viet Nam, 58,000 Americans lost their lives. It took about 10 years to suffer this loss, or @ 5,000 lives a year.

Tuesday, FOUR YEAR'S WORTH of American lives were lost IN A SINGLE HOUR!!!

If THAT isn't WAR, nothing is. If it does NOT call for immediate and DRASTIC retalliation, then NOTHING DOES! If WE aren't the instrument of "equity," NOONE will be! If not NOW, then it will NEVER come.

Besides, my jaws hurt from gritting my teeth so hard and so long since Tuesday, and the only thing that will make it "better" is some
EQUITY injected into the situation. Blood is the ONLY solution. It was NOT our first choice, but "choices" are no longer much of an issue. I have only now reached a point that I can post on this and maintain some composure.

As to the US's doing things that have been less than judicious, I don't think anyone hates these "mistakes" more than the Americans who have bothered to try to keep informed. Of ALL the stupid things the US has done, however, the thing I hate most is that we have FAILED, for many years, to take the threats we have faced SERIOUSLY, and now the price for our neglect has been foisted upon us. Collectively speaking, as long as our 401K's have been doing O.K., we've looked at and considered little else. It has been "too much of a bother" to interest us.

Forty years of incrreasing liberal, touchy- feely politics has brought us to the point that the WTC/Pentagon attacks were not only possible, but inevitable. We have opened ourselves to this, and ultimately, some of our stupid policies and actions, and the failure of our Presidents, (particularly the one of the past 8 years), and other powers to stave it off, and the American people's failure to recognize the threat and demand from our leaders the appropriate actions, are, to me, one of the most DISGUSTING things about the whole affair.

The Tuesday attacks are, ultimately, partially our own fault. Hubris is a terrible thing, and we have been guilty of it - IN SPADES! The "cure" for hubris - and complacency and neglect - is always drastic, and we have now paid that price.

I love my country. I've been shot at for it.
It is so desperately tragic to see us collectively pay for our mistakes in such an awful and terrible way, especially when there are so many among us who have recognized for years that if we did not demonstrate higher diligence, we WOULD eventually pay for it somehow. Survival is, has always been, and will always be, Nature's first law. We have, for years and years, behaved as though we were immune to that. Now ALL, no matter what their "politics" or "policy," MUST recognize the abject absurdity of our neglect and hubris of the past.

If THIS does not TRULY "wake us up," then we will sleep a DIFFERENT type of "sleep." The wages of Sin has always been Death. It always WILL be.

God bless the USA, and bless and bring fruit to our efforts in resolving the current matter appropriately. May He bless us with the understanding of how we contributed to this ourselves, collectively speaking, and give us the wherewithall to mend our neglectful ways, and govern ourselves, and our influence in the world, accordingly.

War without intellect and righteousness, is doomed to hurt us rather than help. We now have the impetus and opportunity to demonstrate to all the world what we have been SUPPOSED to be since our inception. I pray that we do so effectively and clearly.

HeadHunter
Glad somebody else enjoyed that exchange! My new favorite hobby is engaging in debate with the occassional Cro Magnon who has been breathing a little too deeply around a dirty reloading bench. Gotta quit casting those bullets yourself R.A.!

Gatehouse,
Make no mistake, I never said that diplomacy was preferred to kicking some a$$ in the current scenario. This is certainly not the same thing as saying, "I wasn't terribly surprised".

Seems that Florida was harboring these jokers. I vote we nuke South Florida . . . Who's with me!

come a great King of Terror. The sky will burn at 45 degrees (NY is

on the 45th parallel) As fire approaches the great new city in

the City of God, there will be great thunder. Two brothers (the

towers) torn apart by Chaos, while the fortress (the pentagon)

endures. The great leader will succumb. The third big war will begin

when the city is burning"

~Nostradamus (1654

------------------
Monyhunter

The events of Tuesday in N.Y. show terrorism at its worst, and should not be tolerated by any civilized nation.

It seems that chivalry in war is an extinct value and that cowardice is in.

Do not bother to call this a war. A war is declared on a State according to international law.

Whoever perpetrated this act does not even have the balls to claim responsibility for it, another first, even among terrorists...

USA: Use the moment... You will not have more international support than now... This should be an extermination campaign on vermin, nothing else. Do not call the FBI to do year-long investigations on who did what. Do not ask the UN or other NGO�s for permission... Just do it:

Exterminate, or help exterminate, NOW, the following terrorist organizations:

Bin Laden
ETA
IRA
Sendero Luminoso
Hamas
EPR
EZLN
Japanese Red Army
Freedom Fighters
Any Other Terrorist Organization

Maybe you guys or myself do not know what those terrorist did or were about to do, but THEY certainly know...

For every terrorist thus killed build a new floor of the NEW Twin Towers in New York, which should serve as a Monument for the Extermination of Terrorism. (They will certainly be higher than the collapsed ones...) On top of the NEW Twin Towers put a sign that says: "To all ye terrorists, beware: Uncle Sam, Allah, God and Jehova do not like you".

Antonio

My God I look back and since ive been 18yo there has been one year that I have either not been a combat trained military man or a civilian LEO......one year out of 25, over 1/2 of my life.

And if its one thing I know its that I am not a "Bad Ass".

But I have, and will continue, to do what I have to do, includeing STANDING with my fellow American's in time of War. Unlike a certain, un-named ass-maggot who has forfeighted the right to stand with us.

And I am proud, and re-assured, of how my fellow countrymen and woman are reacting to this. And I thank all of our Foreign friends and ally's. I also think there has NEVER been a stronger need for our 2nd amendment right's for self protection and PVT gun ownership.

And I am fearfull of the future but Im also resolved. We simply must destroy this threat NOW and not leave it to our children's generation.

And God Bless you all........10

10point,
OOH, you're a cop! That explains quite a lot.
Violate the 4th ammendment yet today? Thinking about starting law school just for the fun of F*$king with guys like you. You have fueled my ambition. Thanks!

JohnTheGreek

[This message has been edited by JohnTheGreek (edited 09-13-2001).]

150 of your countrymen were working at the World Trade Center. A small number perished in the catastrophe.

Permit a correction to your statement. According to USA law War CAN be declared against individuals and has been in past history. Yes we can declare war and no it doesn't need to be a "State".

Our President, and Secretary of State are calling it WAR.

Kendall Dace

Robert

America has now suffered the most devastating terrorist attacks in the history of the world. The lingering effects of this are yet to be seen. I fear, though, that more has been stolen from us than even the lives of several thousand of our neighbors, friends and family.

Immediately following the events of Tuesday morning, Sept. 11, 2001, I could see in the faces of our politicians a complete lack of pretence, of posturing � Of the air of politics that positively oozes from the pores of government officials. I wish that sincerity could have lasted. I am already detecting a return to the �business as usual� posture of our politicians even though the business at hand is anything but �usual.� I have noted with interest the changes mandated by our Federal Aviation Administration at airports across the country, none of which would have had any affect on the events of Tuesday morning. The only possible exception to that is the prohibition of any sort of knife on an airplane. There are, however, already several manufacturers of �plastic� knives which are undetectable on airport security devices.

I would like to point out this is the first time a hijacked airplane has been used as the instrument of even more violence. From a historical perspective, hijacked aircraft have always been held for ransom. Though some of the passengers and crew may have been executed as demonstrations of the terrorists� resolve, most of the people on board eventually escaped unharmed. Without the expectation of probable survival, there is absolutely no way 2 or 6 men armed with knives could hold at bay 60 to 100 others. It is clear that no one on board the hijacked aircraft knew their fate. Only the passengers of United Airlines flight 93 recognized their situation in time to do anything at all. By all accounts, that particular terrorist mission was unsuccessful even though it resulted in the loss of the aircraft and all souls aboard. If the flight crews of the airliners had suspected that their planes would be used as guided missiles, I suspect they would never have allowed their planes to be commandeered.

In the future, there should be an improved partition between the flight deck and the cabin area. A titanium and Kevlar structure would defeat all but the most powerful small arms fire. Flight crews should be armed. Most are ex-military anyway, and are at least familiar with firearms. Considering the amount of money already spent on training, a few days learning specific CQB techniques at a firearms academy would be a small price to pay. Many types of ammunition already exist which are more �aircraft friendly� than standard metal projectiles. Shotgun loads are already readily available with beanbag or hard rubber projectiles. Not that I am at all concerned with the well-being of would-be terrorists, but they are apt to do less damage to the aircraft structure than lead, copper and steel projectiles. Even a hard plastic wad cutter would be deadly at a distance of 10 or 15 feet. After a hijacker has been disabled, the passengers can then dismember him at their leisure. Further � and I expect this to be very controversial � passengers who have concealed weapon licenses should be allowed to retain their weapons. They have all already passed a state and FBI background check. Most of them have demonstrated a proficiency level at least as high as civilian law enforcement and now, with several years of data on record, they have proven themselves not to be over-reactive as has been charged by the CCW opponents. If these three provisions had been in place before Tuesday, September 11, 2001, the horrific events of that day need not have happened.

As a nation, the United States is clearly resolute that there will be a terrible judgment brought down upon the perpetrators of these acts. I wonder if they have at all noticed the sword of Damocles hanging over their heads or if they are just too busy partying in the streets. I only hope that retribution is swift and accurate.

Every civilized person the world over recognizes these acts, and the people who committed them, for what they are. To randomly attack other American citizens simply by virtue of their skin color or accent is a disservice to America, an injustice to our neighbors and completely repugnant to the U.S. Constitution and the American ideal. As has been stated by others, these perpetrators no more represent Islam or Muslim than Jim Jones or the Spanish Inquisition did Christianity.

The treatment of Japanese Americans during WWII was a dark chapter in American history and I do not want to see that chapter reprised. We can and will discover the identity of our attackers and when we do we will bring to them the punishment they deserve. I would hope that the rest of the world would join the U.S. in putting an end to the terrorist threat. Countries that harbor, finance, house and/or train terrorists are committing crimes against humanity and should be exterminated with great enthusiasm. I care not what their religious or political persuasion. If they wage war against unarmed civilians, they should reap the consequences of their actions ten fold.

To Johnthegreek � If you think America has meddled in the affairs of other nations so far, you ain�t seen nothin� yet! There are one or two nations that are about to get �meddled in� in a very big way. May God have mercy on their souls.

Thanks for the clarification about possible declarations of war USA against individuals. I did not know that...

John:

I see that you like to argue things...: Put any terrorist organization I may have omitted on the list. It was not meant to be comprehensive, just illustrative of my point...

I think I gave a complete definition of terrorism. The basic ingredient is aggression against unguilty civilians, but I do not want to split hairs by arguing rethorically with you about revolution versus terrorism... And NO, I do not think that Zapata (nor for that matter Villa, Carranza, Obreg�n et al.) were heros at all... The whole Mexican Revolution was a bloody mess in which each of the "heros" tried to kill each other and terror certainly played a role. For me it is one of the reasons why Mexico is still a poor country...

Antonio