I would like to know what is more important to the guys/girls of AR. a Trophy that scores high in the book or a good time/experience while hunting.

I see some of the posts here on AR where people are very serious about the quality/size of the trophy.

I am not talking about young animals.

I have one trophy on my wall, a water buff thats a good size. I've never even so much as run a tape measure over it. I shot it, I caped it and I fleshed/salted it and I'm very proud of it. I don't care how big it is. I hunted in with mates and had a great time.

quote:

Originally posted by Fritz Rabe:
I would like to know what is more important to the guys/girls of AR. a Trophy that scores high in the book or a good time/experience while hunting.

I would like both.

Dear Fritz

A good time is a must. More so if you want to ever see me or my friends again.

Trophies should of the quality paid for. Example if you go to an area with Average Kudu you can not expect a massive one.

I usually ask the question! not what is the largest I can expect, but what is the smallest I can expect.

If I book the hunt based on this then I am happy.
Will not shot any thing small than I was expected to take.

Once again a good time is a must.

Regards Mark

I say it depends the area you hunt, if I go to Masailand I would not shoot a 35" buff for a 25K buff hunt. Although in area with very little buffalo and If I had a good hunt/stalk I could shoot a 35" old buffalo. I have no problems with going home not shooting.

Tough question
I'm in for the thrill, but will always try to get as good a trophy as I can get, but consider the biggest ones a bonus, dependent on area, of course.
I will always put trophy size before other mathers like luxurious accomodation and 5 star food.

From antoher point of view. A smaller animal can still be a trophy in my book. I would rather take a medium trophy fair chase, than shooting a world record from a vehicle. And a trophy is as much as what you remember from the hunt as inches.

For me the hunt is the most important.
The thrill and the challenge of hunting is what makes me tick.
I don't want hunting to be easy and that is one of the reasons why I am going to spend most of my hunting days in SA this year stalking PG with my bow.
A big trophy is just a bonus.

But when I need to pay high trophy prices, then I want one as big/beautiful as possible.
But maturity is more important than size.
I have never got a trophy measured and I think I never will. I don't care at all about how much a trophy scores.

I don't care about luxurious accommodations and I am fine with cold water, fruit and some barbecued game for food.

When looking at many places to hunt, there tend to be lots of things I don't need or want to pay for and that pushes the price together with high trophy prices to above what I can or will afford to pay for the hunting.

All about the experience!!! on some of my best hunts i left empty handed.

I'm also one of those who has never run a tape on anything I've shot, although once a PH ran a tape on the gemsbok I took (because he thought it was over 40", but it was only 39 and 3/4") and once a taxidermist called me a month later and asked me if I wanted Rowland Ward to enter my waterbuck into their records. I was very happy to know that both animals were considered good sized, but it didn't make a single bit of difference on how I felt about the hunts.

I've once or twice thought about measuring the trophies on my walls but that would have meant getting a step ladder, so too much effort for something of so little importance.

quote:

Originally posted by cameronaussie:

I usually ask the question! not what is the largest I can expect, but what is the smallest I can expect.


Once again a good time is a must.

Regards Mark

I like your approach a lot!!

All this talk about not carrying a tape and not caring if it's a 32" buff. But everyone knows it was 32 inches.

It's all about the hunt and the experience for me. I have several animals that would go high in the books if I wanted to enter them. It's just not what I hunt for.

I agree with Anton, I have had great hunts and gone home without firing a shot.

Personally, the hunt itself is the best part for me. I have 2 Pope and Young class bears and my taxidermist has offered to officially measure them and get them submitted. I turned him down. They were both good eating. My PH in Africa 2 years ago insisted on measuring everything I shot and telling me how good this animal was or that animal was. I didn't care. Don't get me wrong, I have the picture of the perfect Cape Buffalo in my mind and will continue to look for the massive bossed, hard dropping monster that it takes 2 tape measures to get the width but I am happy with the old bull I shot this year and it won't go 36". The total experience is what I am after and if the big brute that I have pictured steps out, I will do my best to take him.

Most of the time, for me it's all about the experience. Only a few of the trophies on my wall are exceptional. By far, most are average and I don't care. I enjoy them for the memories.

Every once in awhile, I will book a hunt hoping to improve on what I already have. For example, I took a rather small Leopard in 2008. This past year Rich Tabor of CMS was able to find a monster cat for me. I have to admit on that particular hunt, quality of the trophy was important, but only because I already had a small one. If hunting a new species, representative is fine for me as long as the hunt is fun.

Add 1 more to the experience first group. I just like good representative animals from the area hunted. Doing the hunt, seeing the area, the trip to the area, meeting the people living in the area, hunting with good professionals are what makles the hunt for me, shooting something is a plus.

I shot a small elk when I was young. I then decided to only shoot a trophy. I spent 20 years not shooting elk that were good elk in hopes of a trophy and then connected with one over 400 inches. I spent the last 10 years hunting whitetail and not shooting buck but shooting some doe's for the meat and connected with a 200 inch buck this year. When I do to africa however I am looking for a good animal not a record book animal.
Why the different attitude. At home I have the oportunity to spend years looking for the one I want but in africa I do not get the chance to go often enough to be too picky. I have never put any animal in the book because I do not care. I put them on the wall to look at and enjoy and not prove anything to anyone but myself.

Enjoyment is very important also. After packing and carring out and elk from 10k feet elevation to base camp many would find not shooting one much more enjoyable. After I did that the first time I decided what I shot had better be worth the effort. In africa others do much of the labor so that factors in a lot about the decision to pull the trigger

Any PH can lead you to represetative (average) animals all day. A good PH will seek out trophies.

On my 1st safari, it was too much about the trophies & medals.
Afterwards I felt guilty & decided not to measure anything & just enjoy the experience. (I did not measure or ask about my trophies until the safari was over)
I still don't know what any of my trophies on my 2nd safari measured & the only things I know about on my 3rd safari are my buff & sable. As they were measuring them at the skinng shed curiousity got the better of me & walk over to watch.
My greatest trophies are the old ones that are at the end of their lives & have outsmarted predators for many years.
My goodnes, isn't being in Africa enough?

GUNS HAVE ONLY 2 ENEMIES-RUST & POLITICIANS

By far, good time/experience for me.

I was fortunate enough to make 8 safaris before age and finances caught up with me. Out of those 8 safaris which included almost all the game Zimbabwe has to offer I have 2 zebra skins,some warthog tusks and the tusks from my last elephant. I do have many,many photographs and even more memories. My only requirement to my PH was that the animal be a reasonably good representative of the species and they all were more than presentable. I just could not see wasting (to me only) money on taxidermy and or shipping costs when they allowed over the years one more safari. Also I live in a townhouse that has absolutely no room for mounted animals either wall (low ceilings) or floor space for pedastal mounts. I just gave them all to my PH, and actually the Waterbuck,Oribi,and Sable were all mounted and are in their homes.

I think in order to have a great experience on safari, one has to hunt in country where an exceptional trophy could be taken during the hunt. And while a great experience is important, there is nothing like one or two above-average heads to help make that experience truly memorable!

But the quickest way to spoil a hunt is to focus only on what each animal scores and where it ranks in a record book...

You guys must gag your PH. I have not been on a trip yet the PH did not estimate the trophy size before the shot. The size of the trophy is a way of life in Africa because it does matter to the majority of clients. I have only entered one animal in SCI and that was because my PH asked me to do so but everyone has been measured. A PH must be able to show pictures and scores to the prospective client.

The reason why I asked this is as follows:

I have been hunting professionally since 1994 and spent my childhood with my father and grandfather who were PH's as well.
One out of ten clients does not ask how big it is before the shot on any animal even after the PH judged it to be good.
Before a safari I always make sure that I know what the client wants and if he wants to improve on what he already got.

Most clients from Europe seems not to worry to much about the inches.

To us PH's it is important that the old animals are taken out and "normally" they will be the better ones.

I had a client once from Florida that hunted with me in the Namwala area of Zambia. We came across a Sable that I could not judge because I have never seen one so big. He did have a tag for a Sable and I nearly had a heart attack when I saw it standing so close.
The client did not want to shoot if I could not judge it properly. He did shoot a 44" Sable on his 2nd last day.
The client after him shot the one we saw and it measured out at 48"

Then again I have a friend/client from Spain that could not care less about the size. He refuses to enter anything no matter how I plead with him. Be is a dedicated bow hunter and have shot numerous top 5 records if he would only enter them.

51' Lord Derby Eland
28" Forrest Sitatunga
30" Mountain Nyala
32" Bongo
47" Buffalo
16ft Croc
27" Hippo

He is the luckiest hunter I know because he bags the monsters and does not care.
I asked him why he does not enter anything and his reply is always - Many hunters might shoot bigger trophies than me but no one will shoot a bigger one FOR me but myself.

It makes one think.

One need not preclude the other. Seek a good PH in a good area run by a good outfitter and you will get both.

To me the experience is definitely most important, but some animals I am going to have a benchmark. I am not looking for a recordbook. On buff in a normal area, it is all about the hunt, and I just want a good hard bossed bull. On a leopard a mature tom, or an eland, an old blue bull. But...I don't want to go shoot a 45" kudu or a 22" waterbuck. I have shot a bunch of 51-55" kudu, do I have to shoot a 56 now to be happy, no. I would shoot a 53" mature bull. I am not a one time collector, but I don't want to shoot everything that walks out either. A 140" whitetail in Sask is not a shooter, but is a very nice buck in WY. There is definitely a lot more to a "trophy" than a tape measure.

Depends.



How many here would pass up a 100 pound elephant on the first day after walking 50 yards from the truck?

Not many, although hard to describe a hunt like that as good experience except for the trophy.

A satisfying hunt depends on the trophy quality and the experience itself both adding up the right way. It would be easy to overlook at lot of problems if you killed a royal 7X7 elk or a 100# elephant. Likewise, a great hunt with friends or family can be a success even if the trigger is never pulled.

While "negotiating" my last safari, the outfitter agreed to a few fewer days provided I would pay a bit extra for the trophy fees to make up his revenue. I told him that was OK but I would not shoot at an elephant unless we found one better than the one I had already gotten. In short he was taking a risk.

After we got a look at the bull I eventually shot, he said, "we are going to shoot this one" and we took off going uphill to get in front of it. I never noticed the tusks at all until it was dead. At that time we estimated it as 13# pounds heavier than my first one and it actually weighted 19# more. So much for trophy estimation.

The day after I shot my lion he informed me that it had scored (green score) high enough for the SCI record book. After all the experiences of that hunt, this fact was the least important to me.

I don't think I've ever thought about trophy quality in Africa until after the hunt. I shot a 42" gemsbok years ago at 275 yards in poor light. Heck, I couldn't even see the horns, which were 42 inches.

I have not been to Africa yet, but have a Zimbabwe trip booked for August 12.
I do have some nice North American heads that I am sure are book animals, but none have been measured, nor will they be. It's the hunt and the froiends for me.

I don't think I'd out and out tell a PH that I'm just going for a good time. I can have a good time for a lot cheaper than it costs to get to Africa. That being said, to me, the good time is working your ass of for 'trophy' or old/mature animals and then accepting what you get after you work your ass off. When I get to Africa I won't take a tape measure and I hope the PH leaves his at camp. But, after looking at animals for as long as I have, I think I know what would make me happy as a hunter.

When I get to camp I talk with the PH and tell them what I won't do.....

1) Nothing illegal

2) I prefer to hunt with my feet and not with a vehicle. Vehicle are fine to getting somewhere or finding spoor over a larger area. I was never a road hunter when I filled the freezer why should I be one in Africa.

3) I personally don't give a rat's patutee about the tape measure. Would I prefer a 48 inch Sable to a 39 inch sable? Of course. If I had to work equally hard for either and it was mature then so be it.

4) Lastly, although I'm a "detail oriented" guy (nice way of saying OCD driven planner and researcher) when I'm on vacation (and an African hunt is a vacation for me) I go with the flow. I always like how Mark Young described it as letting the Safari develope. I think of it as flowing with the Safari.

Your mileage may vary!

Two months ago I was mule deer hunting in New Mexico. Shot a mule deer and after we walked up to it I asked the guide if he had a tape measure. I am sure he was thinking, "Here we go again."

Much to his surprise, I measured the back to brisket depth of the chest, as I had been playing around with using my mil-dot scope as a rangefinder and noticed just about every mature buck appeared to subtend 18 inches (after determining the range with a rangefinder). I confirmed it on this buck with the tape.

Rabe, I've never measured an animal in my life! When I see an animal that I want, I shoot it. I have two animals on my wall that were measured, not by me but by the PH, and I can only tell you the measurement he told me! #1 is a COOKSONS Wildebeast, that measured 31 inch spread, and I have no idea what the bosses measured, or the combined score. #2 is what the PH said was a 45 inch spred Cap buffalo, and again I couldn't tell you the boss measuremtnet of the combined score!

I think by now you understand the tape measures are not what pulls me into the bush with cape buffalo. It is the hunt purely and simply that boils my blood! If you read my quote in my sig line at the bottom of this post you will see what gets me going. That quote is the last line from thye journal of my first safari back in 1982. It is Africa, and Alaska period.

What's most important to me will be the memories of good friends, good whiskey, and good times in the field once I take up the rocking chair and can no longer enjoy the pursuit.
Some of my most memorable hunts concluded without a shot being fired.

The first trophy animal I shot in Zimbabwe was a Kudu. He spooked out at a waterhole just as we walked up. The PH said 'take him' and I got him on the second jump. I didn't even know how to measure a Kudu much less what was a 'good' one. I actually went thru 8 safaris like that. Some we measured afterwards some we didn't,but never once did I ask the PH before the shot the size and never once did he offer it and most of my hunts were with an SCI official measurer who was terrific at estimating game heads. To me it did not add or detract one little bit from the hunt. In all honesty I could really care less. Only one time did size even enter into any conversations and that was when I hunted Bushbuck on a farm owned by a man named Barkley. The first thing he said to me upon introduction was 'and I'm NOT related to the basketball player' as he was a very proper Englishman. He made quite a point that I was not to settle for anything less than 15" and if my PH couldn't find one he could. I did get one over 15". That's the only time in 8 safari's the subject ever arose. The last elephant I took the tusks were weighed when we checked them in with the Parks Dept and were so stamped by the dept. The zebra rugs were more or less gifts from the PH. One of them was even sent in the mail as a gift. Trophies ,except for my elephant tusks were just not a big thing with me. They were special as I paid what was to me really big bucks for a trophy elephant and I knew at the time it would be my last ever hunt. I think far too many people miss the really important part of the safari and it really has nothing to do with the trophy size.

The more impressed a hunter is with the size of his trophy, the less impressed I am with him.

I may be impressed with the animal, but not the hunter.

'ts why I'm partial to Rowland Ward. It lists the animal ... regardless of whether it was hunted or died of natural causes. The hunter, in that regard, is of no significance.

I am impressed with hunters who know their stuff, know about the lifecycles of the wildlife, the local customs and cultures, and who shoot straight and true (even when their not hunting).

... but that's just me.

It really is about having fun and enjoying oneself.

I would not be doing this if I didn't.

However, and maybe I'm an odd duck, I don't care for being told how great an animal is and then find out later its nothing special. To me, trust is essential between me and the guide/outfitter/PH. I ask questions, I try and know my quarry and what should be expected, although admittedly, my skills as to evaluating a trophy on the hoof are pretty weak. In this respect, if its a DIY hunt, and I take the animal as a trophy, its a trophy to me; if its a guided hunt, and my PH says to take him, I expect it to be what we discussed beforehand, so I am harder on the PH's than I am on myself in that respect.

If the trophy is what I was told it should be, I made the decision to take him, and I worked hard for it, it qualifies as a good trophy to me, regardless of score.

It would appear to me that specifically hunting for a good trophy is more challenging than taking anything that come along. I don't particularly wish to travel 16 hours over the big pond and then pay to take out the elderly, the lame, the sick and the halt. Each to his own, but I think hunters who are paying the big bucks need to do themselves and subsequent hunters a service and insist they get decent trophies.

One thing that doesn't interest me at all is hunting the erroneously so called "species" of Springbok like the copper, white and black. They're not species any more than a German Shepherd Dog would be a different species than a Dachshund. I want nothing to do with hunting a game animal turned into something more like cattle. If I want to hunt cattle, I can do it more safely and much cheaper hunting them in Ohio.

Then there are the "nontypical" animals. At what point does nontypical become deformed? Sorry, but in most cases I'll want two horns and a good trophy because I have not only myself but my wife to please. She isn't going to understand it if I pay to have something with a broken horn on my wall.

That said, one of my favorite trophies and the only one my wife wants in the living room is my lowly Jackal. For plain old fun, I'd be happy hunting Jackal, Baboons and other so called "vermin" any time.

quote:

The more impressed a hunter is with the size of his trophy, the less impressed I am with him.

I may be impressed with the animal, but not the hunter.

'ts why I'm partial to Rowland Ward. It lists the animal ... regardless of whether it was hunted or died of natural causes. The hunter, in that regard, is of no significance.

I am impressed with hunters who know their stuff, know about the lifecycles of the wildlife, the local customs and cultures, and who shoot straight and true (even when their not hunting).

... but that's just me.

Add 1 to that line of thought. While it is not the way everyone does it, in our modern world it has become to easy to buy ones way into the record books.

if Bppne and Crockett/Pope and Young and SCI only listed the animal and gave no accolades to the hunter, IMO prices might not be where they are at, I think that is especially true of white tail deer.

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:

quote:

The more impressed a hunter is with the size of his trophy, the less impressed I am with him.

I may be impressed with the animal, but not the hunter.

'ts why I'm partial to Rowland Ward. It lists the animal ... regardless of whether it was hunted or died of natural causes. The hunter, in that regard, is of no significance.

I am impressed with hunters who know their stuff, know about the lifecycles of the wildlife, the local customs and cultures, and who shoot straight and true (even when their not hunting).

... but that's just me.

Add 1 to that line of thought. While it is not the way everyone does it, in our modern world it has become to easy to buy ones way into the record books.

if Bppne and Crockett/Pope and Young and SCI only listed the animal and gave no accolades to the hunter, IMO prices might not be where they are at, I think that is especially true of white tail deer.

....Or to the ranch where they were pin raised, and hand fed!