I have never had much faith in bullet energy to begin with, but after a recent hunt in Zimbabwe I have even less.
I witnessed my brother-in-law shoot a Duiker square in the jaw with a 300 Win Mag using 180gr Bonded Core-Lock bullets. The entire jaw was totally blown off of the poor little guy's face, however, he just started walking around in circles until a second shot put him down.
Since the bullet energy is over 3,000fp and the Duiker is not much bigger than a medium sized dog, you would think that the Duiker would be struck dead by such a blow to the head, hydrostatic shock effect, etc. Didn't happen!
That's why I think shot placement using a propper bullet/caliber is everything. I think energy is BS.

I would hesitate to draw any conclusions from that example.

that 300 WM doesn't do alot of damage to the sheet of paper you shoot it at either. Obviously, if you don't hit something vital or at least substantial you are going to waste alot of the energy. You have no shot without proper shot placement. However I'd prefer to not write off the whole muzzle energy concept all together. As stated above, I think you are basing your statement on an unfair example.

It seems strangely like DNC logic.

I would blame the duiker instead of the bullet.

With all due respect, you have to be kidding.

quote:

Originally posted by Wolfgar:
I have never had much faith in bullet energy to begin with, but after a recent hunt in Zimbabwe I have even less.
I witnessed my brother-in-law shoot a Duiker square in the jaw with a 300 Win Mag using 180gr Bonded Core-Lock bullets. The entire jaw was totally blown off of the poor little guy's face, however, he just started walking around in circles until a second shot put him down.
Since the bullet energy is over 3,000fp and the Duiker is not much bigger than a medium sized dog, you would think that the Duiker would be struck dead by such a blow to the head, hydrostatic shock effect, etc. Didn't happen!
That's why I think shot placement using a propper bullet/caliber is everything. I think energy is BS.

I don't understand it either.I thought that the Duker would've been blown to pieces.

Although I don't disagree with your conclusion, your example unfortunately proves nothing.

Loss of a jaw would be fatal eventually to a duiker only because of (a) loss of blood if a major vessel is damaged or (b) starvation owing to inability to masticate vegetation needed to nourish the body.

Game animals shot fatally, but not in the central nervous system, often require an inordinate amount of time to succumb to their wounds, no matter the caliber or power of the cartridge used.

quote:

Originally posted by Copidosoma:
that 300 WM doesn't do alot of damage to the sheet of paper you shoot it at either. Obviously, if you don't hit something vital or at least substantial you are going to waste alot of the energy.

Good example.

I thought the whole theory of "hydrostatic shock" had been laid to rest. As others have stated quite well, two things kill, blood loss or shutting down the CNS. May we assume the second shot was a little better placed? If so, there is your answer. That said, the fact he "walked around" rather than diving out of sight does suggest he was knocked a bit silly from the first shot. Not fatal in its own right but allowing for a fatal follow up!

The one thing I remember from my Trauma rotations was the definition of "high velocity" was over 4000 FPS at impact. I have since read Fackler's paper and I'm not sure where I would go with velocity vs hydrostatic shock etc.

Obviously something was not right in the little guy's brain or he would have ran instead of just standing there; but then again it didn't kill him outright either.

I must admit the animals I have shot with over 4000 FPS projectiles became rather violently detached at the seams- but a skunk hit with a 87 gr bullet is not likely to be a fair comparison.

quote:

Originally posted by crbutler:
The one thing I remember from my Trauma rotations was the definition of "high velocity" was over 4000 FPS at impact. I have since read Fackler's paper and I'm not sure where I would go with velocity vs hydrostatic shock etc.

Obviously something was not right in the little guy's brain or he would have ran instead of just standing there; but then again it didn't kill him outright either.

I must admit the animals I have shot with over 4000 FPS projectiles became rather violently detached at the seams- but a skunk hit with a 87 gr bullet is not likely to be a fair comparison.

There wouldn't be very many high-velocity wounds if that were the real definition. Try 2000fps (the difference between pistol GSW and a high-powered rifle wound).

I shoot a bunch of deer with centerfire rifles. I personally find that deer I shoot with a 270 Winchester fall quicker than the same shot with a 7MM Remington Magnum. Personally I believe that the excess velocity of the 7MM does not transfer all that theoretical hydroststic shock to to the animal.

Try this. Take a bed sheet and nail one side to a tree. Hold the other side. Have someone throw a 30-06 bullet at the sheet. Note how much you feel it. Then have them shoot the same 30-06 . Same bullet. Which do you think you will feel more?

Tough crowd here!
I'll try to go another way with this....you would think that 3,000 foot pounds of energy impacting a 30 pound animals jaw would at least knock him out!
Some of the old Ivory hunters claim that a 375 will not knock an Elephant out, but a 500 will etc, etc. The animal weight ratio to bullet energy is so much greater for the little Duiker as opposed to the same for the Elephant, so this why I don't have much faith in these KO valued.
Was I better this time?

Take that 30-06 bullet and poke yourself with it. Take that 30-06 bullet and poke yourself with it at over 2600 fps and I know which one you'll feel more!

quote:

Originally posted by Wolfgar:
Tough crowd here!
I'll try to go another way with this....you would think that 3,000 foot pounds of energy impacting a 30 pound animals jaw would at least knock him out!
Some of the old Ivory hunters claim that a 375 will not knock an Elephant out, but a 500 will etc, etc. The animal weight ratio to bullet energy is so much greater for the little Duiker as opposed to the same for the Elephant, so this why I don't have much faith in these KO valued.
Was I better this time?

The duiker was not shot near the brain. Maybe go shoot some elephants to get a better sense for the knock-out values rather than dismissing Taylor based on someone's shot gone wrong on a duiker?

Steve

What I was talking about is the Medical definition of high velocity wounds. That's where you start having to debride tissue 12-20" from the projectile's path. Typical examples given were high velocity shrapnel from bomb blasts and similar.

That would tend to indicate to me that ALL of the modern hunting guns will not have an adequate velocity to really test the theory that hydrostatic shock will kill given a "poor" hit location. The only thing I recall that did this were some extra hot loads in a 25-06 that literally vaporized anything I shot with it under 25 yards. Then again, it may have been a very violent disintegration of the bullet, as while it was a "match" bullet, it would not have been made to hold together under that impact velocity.

Anyhow, I am trying to say that until you reach really high velocities, the effect of hydrostatic shock will be very unimpressive at any reasonable distance from the CNS or other vital organs. A good test would be to get a 4500 FPS steel fletchette dart and put it through a leg or the abdomen and see what the reaction is, but I doubt anyone is in a position to do it. With hunting velocities, your temporary wound channel will extend further than the medically documented shock effect I have read about. I am not a trauma surgeon, nor have I shot anywhere enough animals to have a sound basis for opinion, but I do know what works for me and what I have read from reputable sources. I can make some inferences and that is all I'm trying to offer

Thanks

Which hunting rifles or military projectiles achieve 4500fps???
Different medical authorities cite either 700 meter/sec, or variously 2000-2500 fps as the defintion of high-velocity wounds.

The 4500 fps you are using is nonsense, as is the idea that hydrostatic shock can kill given a hit away from body cavities, CNS, or more than a few inches from major vessels. Wounding with likely delayed death would be the reult of such a misadventure.

quote:

Originally posted by Wolfgar:
Tough crowd here!
I'll try to go another way with this....you would think that 3,000 foot pounds of energy impacting a 30 pound animals jaw would at least knock him out!
Some of the old Ivory hunters claim that a 375 will not knock an Elephant out, but a 500 will etc, etc. The animal weight ratio to bullet energy is so much greater for the little Duiker as opposed to the same for the Elephant, so this why I don't have much faith in these KO valued.
Was I better this time?

Very little of that bullets energy was tranferred to the animals brain. Most went with the bullet as it left, some went in to disentegrating the jaw. Very little was transmitted--the jaw just exploded.
With an elephant, the bullet usually doesn't exit the head (and if it does, it still transmits most of its energy), and essentially the entire energy is transmitted to the skull. That's why KO values are important for elephant hunters, and not for duiker hunters.

A friend of mine who shoots roe deer for a living here in the UK on behalf of the Forestry Comission (a government body that manages a lot of forestry), took a head shot at roe and it dropped stone dead. Upon inspection he had missed the head but clipped the base of an antler. When he went to clean out the skull cavity it was full of congealed blood. I have no idea what this proves! Though I do envy my friend as he has to take 80bucks and 120 does a year and gets paid for it and lives in the middle of his hunting area far away from other people.

quote:

I do envy my friend

No kidding!

quote:

Originally posted by Cumbrian:
... took a head shot at roe and it dropped stone dead. Upon inspection he had missed the head but clipped the base of an antler. When he went to clean out the skull cavity it was full of congealed blood. I have no idea what this proves!

Subdural hematoma

Wonder if one can ding elephant's skull so much to cause one when Penetrating head injury doesn't apply?

quote:

I shoot a bunch of deer with centerfire rifles. I personally find that deer I shoot with a 270 Winchester fall quicker than the same shot with a 7MM Remington Magnum. Personally I believe that the excess velocity of the 7MM does not transfer all that theoretical hydroststic shock to to the animal.

Depends on the terminal ballistics. I've dropped a very big truckload of whitetails in their shadow with a 7mm RM using Partitions and 140 grain TBBC's. Don't own a .270 and don't want one.

As was explained to me by an expert, us hunters do not take EVERYTHING into account when it comes to muzzle energy.

I shot an impala, facing me at less than 100 yards. The bullet penetrated the whole length of his body, and stopped under the skin by the tail.

I was using a 375, and we estimate the energy of the bullet when it hit him to ve over 4800 foot pounds.

By all intent and purposes, that impala should have been flung over the trees!

Instead, he actually just flinched, then walk a few steps and laid down to die!

Our expert said the energy raised the body temprature of the impala!

A duikers Jaw is a terribly flimsy thing. If you shot it with a 500 nitro and only connected with the lower jaw it would still have had the same effect.
Think of it like pulling a table cloth out from under a plate. If you do it really fast everything stays in place. If you gradually accelerate the whole lot ends up on the floor.

As a side note, head shots on duiker are not advisable due to the size of the target and room for error. In the interest of ensuring a clean kill I would always recommend going for the sure shot as opposed to one that is decidedly risky. Keep in mind that our first responsibility as hunters is to our quarry and that means not taking chances.

That is pretty common when you miss the vitals..I don't buy off on energy figures, velocity doesn't impress me, caliber isn't all that important within reason..

What does count is putting a properly constructed bullet at a reasonable velocity into a vital zone..That usually works for me.

My PH told me to hit it again, after I shot my first Steenbok with a 220 grain Nosler from my .30-06. I did not want to fire again because I could see the poor little critter was on the ropes, but the PH was insistent, I fired again and made a real mess of the tiny antelope. It's all about how you hit them and where. On that hunt I made 6 out of 7 Trophies with one shot kills, the only 2 shot was the tiny Steenbok. Subsequent Steens have gone down with one shot. It is all about shot placement, no matter the paper power of your rifle cartridge. A friend of mine did his Buff with four shots from a .376 Steyr Scout rifle, the first shot breaking the left shoulder of the bull and stopping it, but the critter just did not want to go down without making a stand, that's what separates African game from other sources, they just do not give up without a fight!

LLS