Greetings and Salutations -

I've been away from these boards for some time and even when I was here more frequently, I typically stuck to "Big Bore" and "Wildcat" forums. However, we just did the first round of testing of our new .470 Rhino caliber and it is meeting (if not exceeding) our expectations.

What is a .470 Rhino?
The case is a modified .500 Jeffery case, designed to function in an AR-10 or DPMS LR-300 series semi-automatic rifle. I realize these rifles are atypical for Big Game hunting, but perhaps that was also due to the lack of a cartridge that was truly suitable for big game.

Enough words, what about numbers?
480 gr Woodleigh, 24" barrel, 2,250 fps
500 gr Barnes RN solid, 24" bbl, 2,125 fps

That latter number puts it right next to .470 Nitro Express, which is what the customer who sponsored the project wanted.

More information, including pictures and video, can be found
HERE
as well as on our website under "What's New"

We are looking to have brass made and are looking at the .416 and .375 versions next.

Perhaps somewhat unorthodox, but we felt this would be perhaps the ultimate back-up weapon for a guide/PH, with 8 rounds in a magazine ...

Hope y'all don't mind us sharing ...

I am not quite sure what to make of it! How much does a 470 Rhino AR cost? It may be the ultimate elephant culling rifle.

I can just see me trying to waltz thru customs in Namibia or RSA next spring with one of these...

Rich

While on my first plains game hunt in Namibia (1996) I had a chance to whack a problem elephant in the Caprivi Strip. It was an old bull and I used my Pre-64 Model 70 in .375 H&H. While it would otherwise not be my first choice for an elephant hunt it was what I came to the dance with so it was what I used; One broadside brain shot later it hit the ground very hard.

Now, all that said, should I win the lottery and get to do an elephant specific hunt, I think a black gun in ________caliber is very last on my list of rifles I would go armed with. Oh sure, I know a 50 Beuwolf or "whatever Rhino" would kill an elephant. Hell, they kill them everyday with an AK 47 and/or FAL's in 308! I would struggle more with deciding between a CF in 458 Lott or 416 vs a double rifle in 470.

Why? Because hunting elephants is traditional and tradition deserves some respect. So do cape buffalo and even eland, gemsbok, and kudu. Kill all the terrorist of whatever flavor you want with a black rifle.

'nuff said

quote:

Originally posted by Matt Norman:
While on my first plains game hunt in Namibia (1996) I had a chance to whack a problem elephant in the Caprivi Strip. It was an old bull and I used my Pre-64 Model 70 in .375 H&H. While it would otherwise not be my first choice for an elephant hunt it was what I came to the dance with so it was what I used; One broadside brain shot later it hit the ground very hard.

Now, all that said, should I win the lottery and get to do an elephant specific hunt, I think a black gun in ________caliber is very last on my list of rifles I would go armed with. Oh sure, I know a 50 Beuwolf or "whatever Rhino" would kill an elephant. Hell, they kill them everyday with an AK 47 and/or FAL's in 308! I would struggle more with deciding between a CF in 458 Lott or 416 vs a double rifle in 470.

Why? Because hunting elephants is traditional and tradition deserves some respect. So do cape buffalo and even eland, gemsbok, and kudu. Kill all the terrorist of whatever flavor you want with a black rifle.

'nuff said

Matt - no disrespect was intended to the art of hunting (I find it more art than sport). We even intended to finish the prototype in blued steel and walnut (where feasible). Honestly, we were not trying to offend. The cartridge itself can be made from .500 Jeffery brass and would work well in a short bolt action as well. The beauty is that the short fat case is quite efficient and can achieve the same performance as the large .470 NE.

Regarding using one of these in Africa, we have already been asked about making an AR-10 PISTOL version for a HIGHLY respected member of SCI to complete his challenge of taking Cape Buff with pistol. Some countries allow these types of rifles.

Again, we're not here to spread heresy or sacrilige, those that know me, understand me to be quite a traditionalist.

My humblest apologies if we did offend.

Marty, perhaps I owe you an apology for bad mouthing what you are doing on your thread. Were it not for forward thinkers like yourself we'd still be shooting single shot black powder rifles...or throwing rocks and sticks.

I'm a life member of SCI myself and I'm sure there is somebody out there that has a deep enough checkbook to want to say he's whacked a cape with some kind of a handgun. I say "whatever floats your boat"

IMHO, whacking a 'buff in a more traditional fashion just seems more right. Maybe if I ever get to shoot a dozen elephants or 'buffs in the traditional manner than I will want to seek alternative means.

On second thought, I don't think I have to worry about that every happening. Should I ever get to that junction (that Cape and Elephant hunting has become ho-hum), that might be a perfect day to leave this human experience and return to the spiritual realm. Send the thunderbolt to get me!!!!

What happens if an elephant is charging and your semi-auto jams?

ALL Semi's Jam, including BAR's and 1911's and glocks, and M14's. I have seen them all jam.

I would prefer a double rifle.

Or maybe a bolt action double rifle. That could be fun.

Sounds like a cool project though. Good luck with it.

quote:

Originally posted by sierrabravo45:
What happens if an elephant is charging and your semi-auto jams?

ALL Semi's Jam, including BAR's and 1911's and glocks, and M14's. I have seen them all jam.

I would prefer a double rifle.

Or maybe a bolt action double rifle. That could be fun.

Sounds like a cool project though. Good luck with it.

What if the elephant charges and in the excitement, your first shot misses and your second shot does not stirke where needed? (assuming you have a double rifle).

I base my assumption on the video of the lion hunt where round 1 strikes, but appears misplaced, the lion charges and the customer fires 2 or 3 more rounds, all miss, the PH fires one or two (misses) and finally makes contact at arms length ...

I admit, semi's are not without their challenges, but proper use, maintenance, cartridge design and gunsmithing can alleviate many of those issues. And the aforementioned video is more the exception than the rule. But one could envision a scenario where having the additional shots available (provided there are no malfunctions) might be welcome. (No, I don't envision being charged by a pride of lions or a herd of elephant).

I suspected that in this forum, this rifle/cartridge combination would be seen as an ugly outsider, a break with tradition, and "not my flavor". And I understand, a lot of the African hunt is about tradition, nostalgia, honor and pride. We're just offering a tool for those that feel they have a need for that tool, and like you said, something a little different that might just be "interesting for interesting's sake".

Marty

The guys in that "canned" lion hunt (assuming it is the same video) should learn to shoot.

Also if you miss with two shots, I'm guessing the third might not be possible anyway, especially with increased recoil.

I "rolled my eyes" in the previously post because if I had a PH with a semi-auto .470 I probably would wonder what sort of PH I was hunting with ???

I think they would be much more advisable to choose reliability over having a rifle which has a higher chance of jamming, or the need for multiple rounds in reserve.

As was said above, it might be a good rifle for culling herds of elephant, ie multiple well placed shots with good penetration and power on multiple animals.

unique looking rounds. What is the COL of the longer rounds? Why 500 jeffery Brass? its not cheap or that easy to find. I being an xmarine have a soft spot for the AR.
Dean

Nice novelty gun.

Don't mean to punch a hole in your party barge, but this is useless for African hunting, for a few reasons, least of which is that you can not import it into any African country, (that I know of), to hunt with. I could be wrong. Someone correct me if they know of a country that allows semi-auto rifles to be imported.

Still, I think this is a very interesting gun and a neat idea. Kind of like the T-Rex.

quote:

Someone correct me if they know of a country that allows semi-auto rifles to be imported.

If you are Benelli you can get them into Namibia...

For the rest of us it is forbidden.

Trying again.

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:
How much does a 470 Rhino AR cost?

quote:

Originally posted by Wendell Reich:
you can not import it into any African country, (that I know of),

You could take it into Zimbabwe.

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:
Trying again.

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:
How much does a 470 Rhino AR cost?

Cost depends a bit on how she is dressed up, but I should think the entire rifle could be done for around $1500 -$1600. Nice part is that it is modular and you could build additional uppers (which do not require FFL) that mate to the same lower...

quote:

Originally posted by tonto:
unique looking rounds. What is the COL of the longer rounds? Why 500 jeffery Brass? its not cheap or that easy to find. I being an xmarine have a soft spot for the AR.
Dean

The rounds in the picture are
458 SOCOM - 2.255 COL
500 Phantom - 2.255
500 Phantom - 3.340
470 Rhino - 2.800

We are getting the Phantom brass a little cheaper than the 500 Jeffery you see here in the US (sub $2 a piece retail) and it is made for us by Dieter Horneber. We needed that size to allow unmodified mags to work, as well as have good shoulder for head space and maintain volume ... originally we were trying to use Nyati brass ...

Sounds like an interesting project to play with.

But, it is not my cup of tea to hunt with a semi auto.

quote:

Originally posted by NitroX:
Marty

The guys in that "canned" lion hunt (assuming it is the same video) should learn to shoot.

Also if you miss with two shots, I'm guessing the third might not be possible anyway, especially with increased recoil.

I "rolled my eyes" in the previously post because if I had a PH with a semi-auto .470 I probably would wonder what sort of PH I was hunting with ???

I think they would be much more advisable to choose reliability over having a rifle which has a higher chance of jamming, or the need for multiple rounds in reserve.

As was said above, it might be a good rifle for culling herds of elephant, ie multiple well placed shots with good penetration and power on multiple animals.

John -

Thanks. Agree that the shooter in the video lacked skill required for the task. I can see where a PH armed like that would raise eyebrows, I had a picture of golfing in Rhodesia with the caddy holding the pin, toting an FAL.

We agree, a tool in the tool box, for special applications ...

[/QUOTE]

Cost depends a bit on how she is dressed up, but I should think the entire rifle could be done for around $1500 -$1600. Nice part is that it is modular and you could build additional uppers (which do not require FFL) that mate to the same lower...[/QUOTE]

Not a bad price. If I ever get to that section of my wish list(so many guns so little $) I think ill look into this beast. It would be fun to hand it to someone who thought is was a standard AR. When will you be selling some brass?
Dean

Marty, looking forward to seeing this combo. Maybe you can make one of the "Bubba" shoots and bring it along for "field testing".

Might have to build one on a Mauser action. As none of the posters here seem to remember you saying that the AR-10 IS NOT THE ONLY PLATFORM for this round.

Getting 470 NE performance from such a short package is amazing to me.

Hog Killer

I don't want to start a war but I have to ask. Of what practical use is this gun/cartridge combo?

Thanks,

quote:

Originally posted by DC300:
I don't want to start a war but I have to ask. Of what practical use is this gun/cartridge combo?

Thanks,

Not a bad question to ask, and when the first big bore AR15s came on the scene, the same question was asked.

It is indeed a niche market, but the big bore AR15s have found a pretty strong following with hog hunters and more and more folks find it a solid combination for elk, moose, deer, black bear and perhaps some brown bear.

In addition, law enforcement and military users have expressed interest for special applications as well.

This larger version on the larger AR-10 size platform, was developed to address one "concern", that the big bore rounds in the smaller AR15 were not quite adequate for the largest of species. Part of the development was for the novelty factor for the customer who started the project. However, as Nitrox indicated, there might be some situations where having this combination is on interest.

Personally, the 470 version is not my favorite. The 416 version mimics 416 Rigby, however, this is again "tradition" territory and might be seem in a similar light as the 470 version. The 375 version duplicates 375 H&H which might appeal more, but we are looking to make the 338 version which is where our interest lies.

The 338 version shows on paper that is easily rivals the 338 RUM (not the SAUM) and encroaches upon 338 Lapua Magnum (some numbers show it matching if not beating it). This is where we think the greatest appeal lies, as a extreme long range platform for either competition, hunting or law enforcement/military.

But we realize that it still is an odd ball that is purely niche market focused.

We thought y'all might find it amusing if anything and given the discussions, it seems we have succeeded in at least raising some eye brows. What's life without variety?

quote:

Originally posted by tonto:
When will you be selling some brass?
Dean

We're working on getting quotes in. Thus far brass should be sub $2 a piece retail... We're talking with Horneber, Jamison and Silver State.

quote:

Originally posted by Hog Killer:
Marty, looking forward to seeing this combo. Maybe you can make one of the "Bubba" shoots and bring it along for "field testing".

Might have to build one on a Mauser action. As none of the posters here seem to remember you saying that the AR-10 IS NOT THE ONLY PLATFORM for this round.

Getting 470 NE performance from such a short package is amazing to me.

Hog Killer

Hope you go thru with the Mauser Project.

Looks like a very efficient package. Getting that kind of performance out of a short cartridge like that is pretty impressive.

I wonder what kind of pressures it generates?

A super rebated rim like is on this cartridge might be pretty challenging to get feeding and ejecting smoothly in a bolt gun. I'd be interested in details on that part of the project.

If you can get the cartridge to feed and eject properly in a standard long cartridge length mauser gun. You may generate some serious interest.

Well, I'm not sure about the practical utility value, but it looks like a heck of a lot of fun.



I'd consider buying one just for the BOOM value.

Practical? Hell, how many of the cartridges out there are really worth having? How many are efficient? Why have a 378 Weatherby when the 375 H&H has no flys on it?

Because we can, (provided our wives let us ) I think it would be a lot of fun. Might be a lot of fun for pig hunting, would definitely be great for shooting at the range.

Red

can it work in a wsm gun??? yood lose one down but hey...you could hunt with it...

You can form it from 500 Jeff or 500 AHR and not have the super-rebated rim issue, which might make it more attractive for bolt guns.

However, with the super-rebated rim, it fits the WSM/RSAUM bolt perfectly and the COL is designed to match as well, so it would work well in one of those with just a rebarrel.

I think it would be a bit overkill for pigs?

turning a 300wsm into a 500 nitro 470 nitro 458 lott powered gun is a cool idea to some...

imagine a 7lb gun chucking a 535 gr .510 bullet at 2150!

better have a strong kevlar stock!

so with a barrel swap and some feeding work yer looking at a $400 conversion?

put a verrrry heavy barrel on it.

Marty just like the SOCOM, I think it would make a great pig buster here in the states,,or just for fun on yotes

quote:

Originally posted by MartytW:
You can form it from 500 Jeff or 500 AHR and not have the super-rebated rim issue, which might make it more attractive for bolt guns.

However, with the super-rebated rim, it fits the WSM/RSAUM bolt perfectly and the COL is designed to match as well, so it would work well in one of those with just a rebarrel.

I think it would be a bit overkill for pigs?

Thanks, thats definately interesting. Going to a WSM or RSAUM length action was something I wasn't even thinking about. Seems there may be quite alot of possibilities.

Saeed,
You are very fickle in which threads you allow on this forum. What does this thread have to do with AFRICAN HUNTING????

wellllllll

this thread could be renamed jeffery short mag big bores for africa...

hey what about calling them jeffery short mags mmmmm 500 jeffery short mag...i like it!

if you do a 458 version you could turn a 450 marlin browning blr into a cheap lever actuated bolt action rifle for 3 quick shots...save money on the barrel just ream out and feed work...

How a bout the Jeffery Action Mag
JAM

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:

hey what about calling them jeffery short mags mmmmm 500 jeffery short mag...i like it!

Jamison would probably sue you.

naaaaaaah...he might be making the brass. but good one

is there a short mag rifle that can take an un rebated 500 jeffe short??? THAt would be cool as heck

quote:

Personally, the 470 version is not my favorite. The 416 version mimics 416 Rigby, however, this is again "tradition" territory and might be seem in a similar light as the 470 version. The 375 version duplicates 375 H&H which might appeal more, but we are looking to make the 338 version which is where our interest lies.

The 338 version shows on paper that is easily rivals the 338 RUM (not the SAUM) and encroaches upon 338 Lapua Magnum (some numbers show it matching if not beating it). This is where we think the greatest appeal lies, as a extreme long range platform for either competition, hunting or law enforcement/military.

But we realize that it still is an odd ball that is purely niche market focused.

We thought y'all might find it amusing if anything and given the discussions, it seems we have succeeded in at least raising some eye brows. What's life without variety?

wow!

imagine a switch barrel wsm rifle that duplicates a 338 lapua 375 rum 416 rigby 470 and 500 nitro!

how long before you get the next calls up???

Guess I'm showing my ignorance...is Rick Jamison the owner of Jamison Brass also?