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Here is a test I did this morning.The 500gr TSX took 8 hits with the sledgehammer and so did the 500gr A-frame.[URL= ]a[/URL]Stay tuned for more simple, straightforward, honest testing!

shootaway, please give weight of slegehammer head and impact velocity.
Action Picts of any of GS FNS, NF FNS and CPS, Woodleigh softs and solids, and TBBC and TBSH, or other available dangerous game loads actually undergoing the same testing would be appreciated, along with pictures of results.
Please give caliber and bullet weight.
thanks

SGraves,what is important is that the same hammer is used by the same individual and swung in the same manner.The test should be done by the hunter himself.These are 458 caliber bullets.I would like to test others as well,but I feel for buff the 500gr TSX is tough enough.If ele was on my menu I would test all solids I can get my hands on this way.Its a test I trust and one that I've used to test various medium bore bullets.The hammer was swung fully from a kneeling position.[URL= ]b[/URL]500gr TBBC added.

The box behind the bullets appears to be some form of anesthesia . . . this is starting to make some sense now.

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:

quote:

"There is no such thing as the perfect solid!".

lf,

Read my prior post, then read 465H&H's post. We both seems to agree with you, though I don't believe that round noses tumble all of the time, just some of the time. Don't want to speak for 465H&H but his response to my post seems to indicate that both of our experience tells us that the bullets don't tumble until they have lost significant velocity, if they are going to tumble at all, and so if they do, its well after they have done what they need to do.

JPK

JPK,

That has been my experience. I have never used a FN mono-metal solid on elephant so I am very hesitant to comment on their affects. Look at the aount of bending near the tip of the GS Custon bullets in the picture in my earlier post copied from 500 grains AH article. I must say that the amount of bending shown in these recovered bullets makes me very uneasy. I won't say they failed but I consider that amount of deformation much more serious than small cracks in the base of jackets of steel jacketed solids. If the bending occured after the bullet slowed to a near stop then , no harm done. But it does idicate that the bullet tumbled and I can not see it traveling a staraight course with that amount of deformation.

ALF!

Please define ogived bullets. It appears you are only talking about RN solids but maybe not. FN mono-metal solids such as the the GS custom have relatively small meplats and then increase in diameter to bore size. This pushes the center of gravity to the rear as compared to a paralell sided RN lead core steel jacketed solid. They are also long for their weight. How do these factors play out in stability of FN mono-metal solids in animal tissue?

465H&H

I will test a Barnes Banded solid,Trophy Bonded Sledgehammer and a Woodleigh FMJ in this same way.I will place an order for the bullets.

The TBBC seems like a good soft for use on game such as lion and leopard.I would not trust the A-frame.The Barnes TSX tip flattened out with the first hit from the hammer making it reliable for lion and leopard as well.

I can't wait to go on safari.I did not decide to go on safari just yesterday.I did not take up hunting yesterday or the day before.Hunting africa will not make me someone I wish to be.The hunt and the country is what my SOUL THIRSTS for!

Boy you talk some dribble.

AMEN! some people are just beyond hope.

Alf,

You quote, "Furthermore I do not know how you have the ability to see by simply looking at the animal whether a bullet has overturned in the living target other than the fact that the bullet may end up with it's base forward..... ballisticians cannot, because in living tissue the permanent channel is often smaller than the projectile diameter and it's impossible with naked eye to see how big the temporary channel is so they have come up with some ingenious methods to track a bullets behaviour in target."

If the tissue is soft stuff, like guts, you can see the smaller then larger bruising and bloodshot confirmed by smaller or larger holes though the layers.

If the material is hard, like ele heads, it its obvious.

If the tissue is meat, it can be felt if you follow the hole, inserting your pinkey as you go, feeling for the narrow hole - nose first - and any significant widening - tumbling, it can be obvious to the eye too, observing the wound channel if you bisect carefully. You say wound channel can be less than diameter, maybe, maybe not, but while it maybe .458" plus or minus a bit for a nose first bullet it is a hell of alot bigger for a 1.4" long Woodleigh solid going sideways. This near inch difference is obvious.

Also, I've seen it from the outside too, when the bullet's path isn't too far under the skin (Seen it on on buff, not on elephant) like it would be for a low angle insurance spine shot, for example. The bullet pushes up what might be compared to mole tracks on a mowed lawn, visible from the outside. Then it is plainly obvious and you can easily see if the bullet has tumbled and even see if it has tumbled on more than one axis.

Also Alf, when you say that round nose tumbling isn't velocity dependent but spin dependent, ok, that may well be the case. That would explain why a very significant number of round noses do not tumble. And why a few do. Either way, it seems that tumbling, if any, occurs after significant pentration, enough to do the job, and when the bullet has slowed and lost considerable speed - whether this is direct cause or merely coincidence.

JPK

465H&H,

I can't really see the photos in the article you copied. I tried to find the article itself and couldn't. So I cant see what amount of bending your talking about. But in the article, IIRC, 500 Grains mentions no deviation from straight line penetration. He has never mentioned it in any discussion of flat nose solids that I am aware of either. Surely not the final answer, but if the bullets were veering, we would have heard about it from 500 Grains. Hopefully he will read our posts and respond.

Also, IIRC, many of his bullets ended up in the spine for his dead ele experimental shots. This may be where any bending occured, and it could occur without tumbling too.

If they travel in a straight line, round nose or flat nose, they will do the job, seems to me. Seems too that they both do. But it also seems to me that the flat noses travel significantly further. Shooting your Lott, that may not be all that significant, but then again, shooting my 458wm it makes a huge difference in inches of penetration. Best I can tell the difference is near 40%. This has been the case with every RN vs every flatnose when I could track to the bullet with similar shots, tot he bullet in the case of the round noses, or for flat noses, to the bullet , one case, or to the where its track was lost, or to the exit exit.

FYI, PH Rich Tabor got curious and joined in the dead ele experiments. He loads his 470 to 2250fps for elephants, shoots the 500gr Woodleighs. I can't find my notes, and a heck of a lot more since I moved in July but I do know that his Woodleighs surpassed mine, at 2135fps 10' from the muzzle, by a good margin. My North Forks, at 2190fps 10' from the muzzle, far surpassed his Woodleighs.

Not enough data to call it conclusive, for sure, but enough for Rich to ask me to bring a hundred North Forks for his 470. (And ask to see if he might become the Zim distributor!!)

And again, minor, late course RN splitting, divited FN noses, not significant to me if the do travel straight and don't tumble until late in their travels. If the flat noses travel further, all else the same, and this seems to be the case, they are my pick.

JPK

quote:

The box behind the bullets appears to be some form of anesthesia . . . this is starting to make some sense now.

MJines, just how else do you expect to get the elephant to hold still while you hit it in the head eight times with a sledgehammer?!

Bob

quote:

465H&H,

I can't really see the photos in the article you copied. I tried to find the article itself and couldn't.

Did you check the Nickudu Files under AR Authors?

Look in this .PDF. There are several articles in the .PDF so you may have to scroll down to see if it is there.

No Charles, I didn't. Didn't know it existed. Thanks for the heads up. I'll take a closer look tomorrow.

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by Omnivorous_Bob:

quote:

The box behind the bullets appears to be some form of anesthesia . . . this is starting to make some sense now.

MJines, just how else do you expect to get the elephant to hold still while you hit it in the head eight times with a sledgehammer?!

Bob

Years ago we went bird shooting in one of the creeks we have here.

We found two men who were totally plastered, sitting in their car, right where we wanted to stop ours.

They were very friendly, and we started chatting up. They saw us getting our shotguns out, and asked what we are going to do.

We told them we were going to shoot some birds.

One of them said "I feel like flying just like a bird!"
The other one shouted at "Don't be stupid! If you fly they will shoot you!"

So, what I want to know, is why some bullets have "noses" and others have "points" or "tips" or "meplats" or God knows (nose?) what?

If I were a bullet, I would want a round nose. And a big one at that. Preferably with a full metal jacket. I have always wanted an FMJ, for wearability if nothing else.

Anyway, if I were a bullet, I would not want a flat nose, nor a hollow point, nor a silver tip, nor, God forbid, any variation on that theme.

When I want a bullet, I want a RNFMJ. That will do it, and in point of fact, generally, if not always, does do it, quite nicely, on all the biggest and baddest game.

Walter says if he was a bullet he would prefer to be SOLID!

I suppose to match his head

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Hi
S&B mahkes some steeljacket spitzer loads in 3006 with 180 grain and 8 mm mauser with 198 grain fmj steel jacket. is there anybody that studied rhese loads pentration ability? i have heard that in many afrcan countriese normal army fmj 150 grain loads are used for elefant culling and it seems they work well !!!
regards
yes

Gentlemen

This is my solution to the problem
The Cup Point Solid will expand slightly and the added weight in the front of the bullet will keep it on course.

The bullet in the pictures is in pure copper and in cal. .510 for my .500 Jeffery, weight is 550 grn. Cup is 9 mm wide.

Cheers,

André

quote:

Taylor was a very astute observer and he made the observation that the "perfect full patch bullet should have parallel sides and a nose shape slightly less blunt than a printed letter "U"; he did not like the Kynoch 470 bullets because the bullets had a tendency to deform and vere off target, the taper of the bullet was in his opinion " wrong" . He stated that Rigby's full patch bullets were in his opinion perfect.

After reading this info from many sources over time, I have always wondered what people think about the PMP .375 286gr mono? It is really quite tapered but apprently penetrates quite well...any comments?

ALF, Shakari, SA boys or any other who have used this on big game? (I have shot them at targets only when I had a .375 and when doing field guide training/exams).

Thanks

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quote:

Years ago we went bird shooting in one of the creeks we have here.

We found two men who were totally plastered, sitting in their car, right where we wanted to stop ours.

They were very friendly, and we started chatting up. They saw us getting our shotguns out, and asked what we are going to do.

We told them we were going to shoot some birds.

One of them said "I feel like flying just like a bird!"
The other one shouted at "Don't be stupid! If you fly they will shoot you!"

Saeed, that reminds me of a few years back when I approached my truck after eating at a resturant. Two older white haired and very drunk gentlemen were getting out of the cab while my retriever, sitting on the front seat between them, barked furiously.

I demanded to know what was going on, and the would-be driver explained that, after his key wouldn't work, he asked his companion if the barking dog belonged to him. Only after he said no did they realize they were in the wrong vehicle!

If you can't remember if you brought a 75lb Lab to the bar with you in the cab of a compact truck, you probably shouldn't be driving!

Incidentally, I ran into the same gentleman in a quite different setting a few days latter. He was the principal of a local high school!!!

Bob

I finally figured out how to blow up scaned inpictures. These are photos reproduced from 500 grains article on bullet penetration.
Based on what ALF has said above it looks like the bending and nose deformation shown in these recovered bullets also indicate tumbling.





I would like to see more examples of bullets recovered from elephant such as North Fork, GS Custom and Bridger. Surely some of you have recovered some that you can photo.

465H&H

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quote:

it looks like the bending and nose deformation shown in these recovered bullets also indicate tumbling.

Telling the difference between a bullet that tumbled and a bullet that did not, is easy. The GSC FNs above did not tumble.

Tumbling will bend the bullet along its length such as this bullet:



Aditionally, a bullet that tumbled will show abrasion and/or marking, along the leading (as it tumbles) side of the shank.



Deformation of the nose of the bullet and an absence of abrasion, marking or bending of the shank, together with deep penetration, proves that the bullet remained nose forwards and did not tumble. Tumbling bullets penetrate poorly and often produce curved wound channels. The FNs from Dan's article were reported to have penetrated deep and straight as did these FNs recovered from elephant. Obviously the bottom picture has an unfired bullet on the right.




Here is the article referred to by 500NE elsewhere, that contains the picture of the bullet he recovered from the earth, after it penetrated an elephant skull.

Recovered FNs are scarce as, most of the time, this is the result.

Thanks to Dan, Andy, John and African Hunter for the use of their pictures.

A couple of questions.

This posts gets a bit too technical for me at some points but it seems that making a solid bullet that would not bend or fail is not an easy job.

So following all the post if I may ask what would be the best solid to use in a 375 H&H for backup regardless if it would be for elephant buffalo or any other game that you can buy in most gunshops or get hold of easily ?

Then am I right to say that it is easier to produce a proper solid that doesnt bend with a bigger caliber than medium calibers like 375 or 9.3. Or it is not so much the caliber of the bullet but rather the length of the bullet ?

Safari-Hunt,
Nice work on the Big Bore Video. Who says hard work can not be fun as well!

My take on mono solids is that you cannot get away from the fact that the bullet length is dictated by the diameter of the bore, the rate of twist of the caliber and the speed potential of the volume of the case. The gyroscopic stability of the bullet at impact, must be high enough to allow initial penetration (the transition from flight to tissue), without allowing the bullet to wag it's tail.

Looking at the 375H&H specifically, if we search the various discussions and pictures of recovered bullets posted, there are any number of bent 300gr monos to be seen. However, I have never seen a picture of a bent 270gr or 250gr mono solid. In fact, one seldom sees pictures of recovered 270gr or 250gr monos. Given that tumbling reduces penetration, perhaps that is why 300 grainers are recovered and 270s are not.

As we go up the caliber scale, twist rates generally slow down, requiring the bullets used to be shorter, relative to the bore size. This makes them more difficult to bend. Again there are examples that illustrate the point. We see examples of .416" monos of 400gr and more, that have tumbled, but no 380gr that has. Similarly, there are more examples of long 458s that have tumbled than shorter ones. I do not recall ever seeing a single .458" mono solid of 450gr that has bent.

But, as they say, opinions and mileage vary.

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
I would like to see more examples of bullets recovered from elephant such as North Fork, GS Custom and Bridger. Surely some of you have recovered some that you can photo.

465H&H

I have posted this before. Best guess is this is what happens when your 450 grain .458 North Fork hits something like an elepahnt molar. My advice it not to give the elephant a toothache, but to shoot a bit higher up! Before anyone mentiones it, the rifleing marks are a bit light as I suffer from a slightly oversized bore. However, the bullets showed no signs of instability and exited on elephant more than once. This particular one ended up against the spine.








[Click pictures for larger versions.]

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quote:

Only problem is getting adequate supply where I live !

We are hoping to solve that one soon.

I have personally had Barnex X and Barnes Super Solids penetrate into a zebra the same distance??!

Where is the science to answer this one?

Here is a .510 brass solid recovered from an insurance shot on an ele. It fully penetrated her skull from the top and ended up in her throat. It was the only bullet recovered as the others exited both head and shoulders. It shows slight riveting on the nose but is otherwise undamaged.


Here is the same Punch bullet unused.

Saeed,
I am sure that the Zebra would have been able to shed light on that question. But he is dead and that is no help at all.

Jokes aside, it happens often and is proof that there is much more to terminal ballistics than a simple Knockout Index or quick calculation scribbled on a napkin. I am curious: What were the calibers, bullet weights and distance?

quote:

Originally posted by Gerard:
Saeed,
I am sure that the Zebra would have been able to shed light on that question. But he is dead and that is no help at all.

Jokes aside, it happens often and is proof that there is much more to terminal ballistics than a simple Knockout Index or quick calculation scribbled on a napkin. I am curious: What were the calibers, bullet weights and distance?

I was using our 375/404, with a muzzle velocity of about 2600 fps. The zebra was wounded, about 120 yards, facing away from us.

I fired a barnes X 300 grain bullet at it. He moved a step or two and stopped. I fired another round at him, this time using a 300 grain Barnes Super Solid. He moved slighly and dropped down. We walked up to him, and he was still alive, but in his last throws.

Both bullets were recovered withine inches of each other in the rear of the neck.

We were totallya amazed at his behaviour to these shots.

But, as you have mentioned, sometimes we get weired behaviour from animals we expect to drop dead at the shot.

On the other hand, I have had some animals die with what looked like a non lethal hit.

Two examples that spring to mind are both impalas.

Both were shot with a 270 Ackley. One with a barnes X 130 grain bullet, with a muzzle velocity of 3100 fps. The impala was about 120 yards, and the bullet broke both his shoulders, as he was standing broadside. He ran a few yards and dropped dead.

We found that both his shoulders were broken, just under the chest cavity, only grazing it.

Roy was very annoyed that the impala was dead. He kept repeating "he should not have died! He should not have died!" While trying to poke into the chest cavity, but getting nowhere.

Another one was also an impala, shot with the same 270 Ackley, using 140 grain Bear Claw bullet. Muzzle velocity was about 3000 ps.

He was about 200 yards, and the bullet hit him in the side of the neck, and out about 4 inches further. It did not hit any bone, and he ran off, and died about 60-80 yards away.

The more I hunt, the less I rely on all the theories one reads about on bullet performance.

Thank you Saeed,
On a different subject that was touched on earlier:



This is an interesting concept and has prompted some thought on my part. We should ad this piece of equipment to our testing procedure.


This will allow great consistency of the test procedure. We will then be able to prove that all bullets, solids and softs of any type of construction, are all equal under this test.

Gerard,now you're getting it! Any Gerard bullets available in Canada? I would like to test your solids.