I have a question for Professional Hunters and booking agents.

Is there ANY hunting left in SA for a real wild lion in an unfenced habitat? Are the lions hunted near Kruger or Kalahari the real deal or is all of SA lion hunting a bit iffy?

I have heard stories of hunters taking lions that they believed to be wild but were actually "put & take" affairs by the outfitters. Who can you trust?

You might like to read articles 18 and 20 here: http://www.shakariconnection.c...unting-articles.html

Steve,
It is a wonderful website. I already have it bookmarked and read the wealth of info it has about African hunting. As a matter of fact it was Andrew's article (#20) that made me ask this question. I have heard these stories before and Andrew explained the behind the curtain work extremely well, but he didn't name any names for reasons best known to him.

He specifically mentioned the Northwest area along Botswana border as being the most notorious for this shameful practice.

My question still stands, is there any real lion hunting left in SA?

Glad you like the site and hope you find it useful.

We can't mention names because we'd be in and out of court like yo-yo's if we did, but if you mean are there any truly wild Lion hunts available in South Africa nowadays, I'd have to say that in my opinion, absolutely, positively not.

If you want to hunt a truly wild Lion that isn't (t the very least) habituated to humans and/or vehicles, you need to go and hunt it in a true wilderness area such as Tanzania, Mozambique and most of Zimbabwe etc. And you need to do it with a reputable company and accept the fact that it ain't gonna be cheap.

Shakari - Do you consider the LIONS in the Timbavati, the Klaseri and the Balule for example, wild or not wild??? What about lions in the Kruger?? Just curious?

Aaron,

If they're genuinely from those areas, I consider them habituated. If not genuinely from those areas, I consider them ringers as per the articles I posted links to.

Either way, I don't consider them truly wild. Not necessarily less dangerous, but not truly wild.

Hope that helps.

quote:

Originally posted by Harris:
I have a question for Professional Hunters and booking agents.

Is there ANY hunting left in SA for a real wild lion in an unfenced habitat? Are the lions hunted near Kruger or Kalahari the real deal or is all of SA lion hunting a bit iffy?

I have heard stories of hunters taking lions that they believed to be wild but were actually "put & take" affairs by the outfitters. Who can you trust?

Why not forget about shooting high priced pets in SA, and book a real hunt in Tanzania, where you know 100% that all the lions you see are truly wild???

quote:

Why not forget about shooting high priced pets in SA, and book a real hunt in Tanzania, where you know 100% that all the lions you see are truly wild???

Very true.

But, there is no guarantee that one will even see a lion in Tanzania, let alone shoot one.

In South Africa, however, one can have his pick from a catalogue

quote:

In South Africa, however, one can have his pick from a catalogue

Like a mail order bride?

I would consider that you have to ask yourself if the trophy or the experience is more important. To me the trophy is a reminder of the experience. Do things that give you great stories.

Everyone knows how much i abor canned Lion hunting. But i am sure what i am about to say is really going to the pot. Personally given the choice i would rather hunt a Lion on foot, tracking and no baiting in the timbavati/klaserie/madikwe than shoot one off a bait in Zambia/Tanzania. The ultimate would be a hunt on foot in Bots but that is no longer a reality

I concur with Scott450.

Scott,

But would you rather stalk them on foot in RSA or on foot in Tanzania? - There's no rule that says you can't hunt them that way in Tanzania.

The truth of those hunts is that the lower success rate isn't to most clients satisfaction and also that not all clients are capable of such a hunt for a variety of reasons.

Scott and Bo, OH MY GOD!

Die Ou Jagter,
I am sorry if you find the post repetitive. I know the topic may have been covered before.

Would you rather I opened the 1035th thread about the effectiveness of 9.3x62 or .375 H&H and Barnes X on buffalo??

quote:

Originally posted by TANZ-PH:
Why not forget about shooting high priced pets in SA, and book a real hunt in Tanzania, where you know 100% that all the lions you see are truly wild???

TANZ-PH,

I would personally never hunt lion in SA because of the doubts surrounding the Lion hunting there. I do dream of hunting lion and when I do it, it will be in Tanzania or Zimbabwe.

The topic came up yesterday during a conversation with a friend. I was of the opinion that these hunts are suspicious but he was convinced by the propaganda of many SA outfitters that the areas surrounding Kruger and the N.W are still offering legitimate lion hunts.

I showed him a couple of "Lion Hunting" videos on youtube and also showed him the articles mentioned on Steve's website to convince him but it was still his limited information about Africa against mine. I thought of asking the professionals on this website who live and breathe Africa to shed some light on the issue and get educated.

It should also be mentioned that even though these SA lions may be pen-raised, most of them are not docile pets, but are simply lions raised in captivity that have lost their fear of vehicles and man, and have been released in an area where they can reasonably be expected to be found by a decent tracker, or at a bait, within a short time period.
An interesting new approach might be to have an arena like the old Roman Circus Maximus or Colluseum, and to release the lion and the lone hunter with a double rifle and 2 rounds of ammo and a knife into the place together. Hunter spectators could be on one side, PETA spectators on the other---the place could offer "free hunts" and still make money. Better yet, offer the same deal with only a spear and PAY the hunter!

quote:

Originally posted by SGraves155:
It should also be mentioned that even though these SA lions may be pen-raised, most of them are not docile pets, but are simply lions raised in captivity that have lost their fear of vehicles and man, and have been released in an area where they can reasonably be expected to be found by a decent tracker, or at a bait, within a short time period.
An interesting new approach might be to have an arena like the old Roman Circus Maximus or Colluseum, and to release the lion and the lone hunter with a double rifle and 2 rounds of ammo and a knife into the place together. Hunter spectators could be on one side, PETA spectators on the other---the place could offer "free hunts" and still make money. Better yet, offer the same deal with only a spear and PAY the hunter!

Steve i agree that all things being equal a Tanzanian hunt will be better. A problem that is rarely discussed here is that outfitters in many wild hunting blocks have over shot their Lion quota's and fully mature trophy lions are like hens teeth in those big blocks.Lets hope the current educational transformation(with regards to lion hunting) taking place amongst most outfitters will change that status and in 10 years or so it will be a different story.

Scott,

Whilst there's a lot of factors involved in Lion management/mismanagement in general and mane development in particular, I agree with you completely and in fact, the same can be said of some other species, esp Elephant, but that's a whole different can of worms.

I guess to a large extent it's that an ever increasing number of people have unrealistic expectations of success rates and people on the other side of the fence are prepared to feed those expectations. Quite what the answer to that is, I'm buggered if I know.

One thing's for sure, it ain't gonna change much in the foreseeable future, esp in the present financial climate!

Let us play devil's advocate.

Lion is one of the more glamorous species, and many people would love to hunt them.

And unlike some of the other species, like elephant, buffalo and leopard, which one stands a very good chance of getting on safari.

One can go on an expensive lion hunts many times, and still come back empty handed.

Isn't this one of the more compelling reasons canned lions are popular?

Saeed,

That's exactly wat I meant with my comment about unrealistic expectations of success rates. A lot of people now have unfortunately developed a supermarket mentality about their hunting. They forget the true definition of hunting where success isn't guaranteed and replace it with one where they know how much they're spending and expect 100% success in exchange for that. In many cases, not only do they expect to take the animal, they also expect the animal to meet a certain standard with regard to trophy size.

Unfortunately, the canned hunting industry is standing ready, waiting and rubbing their hands with glee to satisfy that expectation. Whilst I personally find that situation extremely distasteful, I guess I can to some extent understand it, if and only if the customer knows what he's getting. Note, I don't condone or support it, but I do understand it.

What I find really disgraceful is the way some operators pull the wool over the hunter's eyes and lead him to believe that he's hunting a truly wild Lion, when in fact, that isn't the case at all. In those cases, I don't particularly condemn the customer, who after all is just the poor silly mutt that's being taken for a ride, but I do condemn the supplier who in effect, is pulling what is nothing more than a confidence trick on the customer.

I also feel it goes much further than the immediate and obvious issues, in that the morals and ethics of these types of hunts are questionable to say the least and I'm absolutely convinced that sooner or later, some group will seize the opportunity to use it as a weapon against not only Lion hunting in particular but ALL African hunting and possibly ALL hunting....... and then the only people we'll be able to blame for the loss of our sport and our industry is ourselves. Simply because we had the opportunity to set our own standards and police ourselves and we failed to do so.

Harris, unfornatally this post is repetive and has been beaten to death. Most peoples opinion is well known, and that is all you will find here. It is the eleventh comandment of AR Thou shall not hunt lion in South Africa. I believe there are operation that drug lion and release them just prior to the shooting of same, but I als believe there are captive breed lion that are released on hugh tracts of property that fend for themselves. I would like Steve and other of his mind set to show valid video that shows there are not lions on large properties fending for themselves. Steve don't bother to answer me as I won't see your post you know what I mean.

Back to your original question, you will PH's and booking agents on each side of the question, those that do and those that don't. If I book it or hunt is it is a sound endevore, if I don't it is herasy!

I don't expect to change anyones opion on lion hunting in South Africa. Most of these post are very negative on the subject. I did go on a lion hunt in South Africa in 2004. This would be my first time in Africa. I have hunted North America, and have taken Kodiak bear,Black Bear, Elk,Moose,Caribou,Pronghorn,Mule deer,Blacktail Deer, and Whitetail Deer. So, I have alittle bit of time hunting. After the Kodiak Bear I dreamed of hunting the African Lion. I'm a blue coller worker, so I must save, and work hard for everything that I do. I most likely bored most of you by now. But, alittle background was needed before I begin. Before I picked my Safari outfit I did alot of research. I discoverd AR, and I liked what I found. I noticed that Saeed had hunted with Peter Harris, and thought very highly of him. I then went to his site, and noticed that he offered Lion hunting. After calling some hunters that had hunted with Peter, I understood that the lions in the area where I would be hunted are very dangerous. I then booked the hunt. My PH was Deon. Deon was 38 at the time, and was very experienced. All hunting was done by tracking. The first day we track, but did not find a lion. I did see alot of game, and ran across the remains of some dead Oryxs. The second day we started at day break. At around two hours in the stalk we saw the lion. The thorns were so thick that I didn't have a shot. The Lion escaped. We continued the stalk, and came accross a recently killed Giraffe. We then entered some thick brush. Every one became nervous. I was told that there were two lions in the area, and be alert. Keep your thumb on the safety, and only focus 10 yards ahead. I think I'm kinda brave, but here I was pretty scared. I learned alittle bit more of myself after that! We continued the stalk I would see parts of Lion, but never enough for a clean shot. This went on for seven hours. We came accross the lion in another thicket. The Ph told me to shoot at 35 yards all I could see was his eyes, and nose. I shot for the nose. The lion was knocked down.. He roared, and charged. The thicket was to thick for a staight charge. He angled slightly to his right. I shot the beast in the neck, and he got back up. Another shot in the shoulder dropped him for good. The distance for the last shot was 20 yards. My first shot was one inch to the left of his nose. It just missed the brain. I was using my Pre'64 Model 70 .375 H&H Magnum. Whith 300 grain Nosler Partition bullets. The hunt took place in the North Weat on the Bots. border. I however, can't remember the name of the place where the hunt took place. The Lion they said was around 9 years old. It did have scares on his face, and the tuff at the end of his tail was missing. This was one of my toughest hunts. I should also mention that the day was very hot, and heat exhaustion was a real possability. Well I hope that I did't offend anyone. I believe that this was not the only good Lion hunt in SA. Some may be bad, but I enjoyed my hunt.

Proving a negative, esp without replying might be a bit difficult, but other than that, it's not a bother to answer at all..........

Simple economics make it highly unlikely (to say the very least) that owners would release Lions for any amount of time onto their property. Even if the cats just eat impala it would be a very expensive excercise to keep them on the property for any reasonable period, but as they kill whatever they can including the more expensive glamour species such as sable, kudu and nyala etc, the cost to the landowner would be astronomical.

That is one of the major reasons the Lion Breeders Association put forward in their argument against the new legislation that was proposed a while ago and then withdrawn.

Bo, You are right, I did hunt with Peter Harris and Deon, twice, and would gladly recommend them.

You might also have hunted a free range lion in 2004.

But, from my own personal perspective - and certainly do not imply that others follow it - I would not feel comfortable hunting either lion or buffalo in South Africa.

Again, this is purely from a personal point of view.

Having said that, I have hunted South Africa twice for plains game. And enjoyed every minute of my hunts.

I would also look forward to hunting there again.

I know, this might sound like I am being a bit of a hypocrite; that I would gladly hunt plains game inside fences, but would refuse to do so when it is either lion or buffalo.

I have hunted long enough to know that hunting can be very different. One can track animals for days and never see them. And one can see animals from the truck, jump out and shoot them.

This can happen in countries like Zimbabwe or Tanzania, and one has to take what his luck brings.

I have followed a wounded eland, in a fenced up farm in South Africa all day, and never set eyes on him again.

Still, in the back of my mind, I KNOW that animal cannot really get away from me if I chase him long enough.

This, of course, this is not the case when hunting in non-fenced up areas.

Saeed, with all due respect NO animial can escape if you chase him long enough be it fenced or unfenced.

quote:

Originally posted by Die Ou Jagter:
Saeed, with all due respect NO animial can escape if you chase him long enough be it fenced or unfenced.

There's an awful lot hunters that would strongly disagree with that statement at the very least.

quote:

Originally posted by Die Ou Jagter:
Saeed, with all due respect NO animial can escape if you chase him long enough be it fenced or unfenced.

There are li mitaions. Such as the animal crossing into another concession.

Or an animal going through a rocky area, and then you loose his tracks.

Or he goes into a river, and no one knows where comes out.

I have had all the above happen to me.

Die Ou Jagter

I believe you need to qualify that statement. Hunters have gone after many big game animals only to have the animal ending up dying of old age.

Also being able to run further and faster than the pursuers.

It's a bit like missing, anyone who claims never to have missed or never to have lost an animal either isn't being entirely accurate or hasn't done much hunting and both will happen to him eventually.

Steve,

Do you mean there is a certain percentage of shots that are missed?

If so, can one fire those misses on targets before he actually goes out hunting?

The reason I ask this, because a few years back a friend and me were trying to learn windsurfing.
We could not stay on the surf board, as we kept falling off.

An expert told us we will fall a few hundred times before we are able to stay on the board.

My friend asked how many hundreds, and the answer was 200-300.

Then my friend goes and ties his surfboard to a rope in the sea, and proceeds to get on top of it, then jump off, counting!

When we asked him what the hell he was doing, he said he was getting all his falls before he goes surfing!

And no, it wasn't Walter either!

Saeed,

Ah, if only it were that easy huh? Just think how much money we could save by buying cheap ammo for the misses and saving the good stuff for the hits.

Sounds like your surfboard buddy must have been Walter's brother. - Thre can't possibly be two families world that would work on that logic. ......... unless perhaps if they're Africans.

The logic of long enough is to complete the task thus long enough is the sucessful completion of the task, therefore you would have your quary. Maybe a better discription would sufice.

Die Ou Jagter,

Steve makes a good point. Why would any ranch owner leave a few lions on his property to go fend for themselves? In a couple of years, a lion will kill and eat a substantial number of game animals. It wouldn't make sense to let a $30,000 animal kill $100,000 worth of animals to prove that it is wild and self sufficient.

I was lucky enough to take my lion on the 5th day in Tan. on my first lion hunt. I did my homework and found where I wanted to hunt in Tan. Caught a break and bought a discount hunt due to an cancellation. That said, I could have gone to SA cheaper. How many guys book lion hunts in SA and come home empty handed?
My humble opinion. Lion hunting is SA, tainted goods.
I thought they were going to outlaw this anyway?
I have too much respect for the king of beast to pay someone to take them from a pen and turn them loose so I can shoot one. What a shame...

The lions in Klaserie/Timbavati are far from captive bred and have probably never even seen the fences on the west and east of the Kruger. They are a part of one of the biggest lion populations in Africa and the reason for the success rates there is because the areas are so well managed, the same goes for the buffalo population in the area.

I respect the fact that Steve and Saeed wouldnt hunt Lion & Buffalo in SA regardless of where the hunt took place as that is their personal choice. But the Lions in Klaserie & timbavati are definitely not canned or captive bred in any way.

Steve i would be prepared to debate that a lion hunt in Kenya/Tanzania/Zambia in the early to mid 1900's was easy,straightforward and probably ran at success rates of 100% with most guys getting multiple lions. I reckon those hunts were way easier than a Klaserie hunt and that the lions were not nearly as challenging to hunt as they are today. In fact i reckon that if lion hunting was as hard then as it is now it would never have become the sought after hunt that it is now. Those guys in the old days enjoyed their sundowners far to much to have hunted lions as hard as we have to nowdays. I somehow dont think that they would have enjoyed those back breaking rides between baits, and late night arrivals in camp, only to collapse in bed to begin again early the next morning for a day of the same.....

Scott,

You need to read or re-read the articles and perhaps my posts on this.

To summarise, I said and the articles say that those Lions in the areas you mention and if they genuinely come from from those areas are habituated rather than truly wild. Not necessarily less dangerous, but habituated.

There's no mention or suggestion of those Lions that are genuinely from those areas being canned or captive bred........ there is however the real possibility of a ringer being introduced to those areas and again, the articles will explain further.

As for your comment about the Lions from that area being part of one of the biggest Lion populations in Africa. My guess is that would be far from the case. ....... I'm not aware of any recent and proper Africa wide surveys on Lion populations (or any other species for that matter) being conducted and therefore don't understand that comment. Perhaps you could let me know if I missed one. The biggest I know of was some years ago and was restricted to just part of individual countries where they counted small areas and from there, extrapolated figures that probably mean bugger all.... .esp on a continent wide basis.

I take your point about the 1900s but at that time, Lions were considered a pest species pretty much throughout Africa. Add on the fact that at that time there were virtually no fences either here in RSA or anywhere else so the situation was completely different from what it is now, and therefore (if you'll forgive me saying so) have no relevence to the issue at hand.

Andrew's article really is the bottom line of how it can and on occasion, does happen. I personally reckon it's one of the best and most accurate articles I've ever read.......