Gentlemen,

First of all be proud to be an American, I have traveled the world widely and seen all kinds of ugly people. One day on the Belgium – France border in a train station a number of people acted very loud and obnoxious, I just came back from a place where I met 70.000 Americans, all very silent, Unfortunately, I did not see “thank you Ugly American†for your ultimate sacrifice.

Roland

When PWN and I were coming back from Zim we had a 4 hour layover in Jo`burg. We were sitting in the terminal and as we were on one side of the benches we were fortunate enough to have a couple of the cutest young Italian ladies I have ever seen sitting to the back of us. We were right in front of the Out of Africa store. So the young ladies decided to pick up a trinket of two from the store. They left the bulk of their stuff on the bench and made for the store. While they were gone an "Ugly American" decided he had been standing long enough and he plops his big ass down on their stuff, aranges it so he can use their bags as a pillow and throws his feet over the end of the bench. Discretion being the better part of valor I decided not to say anything. When the young ladies came back (less than 5 minutes later) they politely told him he was on their stuff. His response was to open one eye, snicker and close his eye. So that was all I could take and in a calm friendly voice, told him to get off his ass and vacate the bench. He was a little pissed off, but it is better to be pissed off than pissed on so... Just doing my part to dispell the idea of "Ugly Americans" to the young Italian beauties.

You know, we are sons of bitches for trying to stabilize the mid east. We are sons of bitches for sending our military and financial aid to help the tsunami victims. We are sons of bitches for hosting the UN on US soil. We are sons of bitches for spreading financial aid and medical aid all over Africa. We are sons of bitches for trying to secure our border and remain a sovereign nation.

Having traveled a bit, I can tell you one thing for sure - the good old USA don't have a monopoly on assholes.

I'm usually pretty laid back and have learned to keep my mouth shut. The exception is when I see some ungrateful nation such as France whom the USA bailed out of the mess they allowed themselves into, then stuck us for the money they owed us, BAD MOUTH any AMERICAN at anytime! They should be on their knees thanking us yet!
Same goes for any African nation using USA $ for their sick and unfed. While so many Americans go without medical insurance or needed presriptions. What American does not know a senior citizen that is working at Burger King to pay their realestate taxes, medical insurance and purchase life sustaining presriptions??????????????

while I'm on the soap box ,I've read some pretty silly stuff on AR in the past but BWN300mag's latest post was the most recent example: 2 "hotties" from Italy suckup coveted seats in an airport with luggage while they shop!
Let me tell you 300mag I may not have used their luggage for a headrest but I would have moved the inconsiderate young babes bags and sat there myself.

Well , I think if I was in africa on safari I would be feeling so fortunate I wouldn't care who was doing what or how loud or obnoxious they were. Count your blessings you can afford to go ,there are many who can't.

quote:

Originally posted by crowrifle:
You know, we are sons of bitches for trying to stabilize the mid east. We are sons of bitches for sending our military and financial aid to help the tsunami victims. We are sons of bitches for hosting the UN on US soil. We are sons of bitches for spreading financial aid and medical aid all over Africa. We are sons of bitches for trying to secure our border and remain a sovereign nation.

Having traveled a bit, I can tell you one thing for sure - the good old USA don't have a monopoly on assholes.

You Bet.

Roland

As a nation, I think there are plenty of thing we have to be proud of; there are some things that do not inspire as much pride; there are many more issues that are ambiguous. As for being ugly, there are some Americans that are -- particularly, there seems to be some peculiarly American ways to be ugly.

I appreciate the comments, Roland, that we should be proud -- or at least remember the things we should be proud of. This is in significant contrast to the taxi driver in Malmo, Sweden, who expressed his bitterness about Americans bombing his house in Bosnia. Let's see, his comment was that he was happy the World Trade Center bombing upset us -- we could know a little bit of what he had felt. It looks like there's enough ugliness to go around that goes a bit further than loud and tasteless shirts, loud and tasteless mouths.

Dan

I have never hunted on a safari and probably never may, but I have travelled more than a little to several parts of the world and can say that boorish tourists come from all countries. As a matter of fact, some of the rudest tourists I have seen have been Indians, Scandinavians and Germans in Thailand. There may be a few nut cases among American tourists but there is no reason to think that these people embody Americans as a whole.

Best wishes,

Anyone can say what ever they want, but there is one thing for sure! If the USA opened the doors to all commers, the rest of the world would be a ghost town in 30 days, because every complaining A..Hole in the world would become "UGLY AMERICANS"!

quote:

Originally posted by DanEP:
As a nation, I think there are plenty of thing we have to be proud of; there are some things that do not inspire as much pride; there are many more issues that are ambiguous. As for being ugly, there are some Americans that are -- particularly, there seems to be some peculiarly American ways to be ugly.

I appreciate the comments, Roland, that we should be proud -- or at least remember the things we should be proud of. This is in significant contrast to the taxi driver in Malmo, Sweden, who expressed his bitterness about Americans bombing his house in Bosnia. Let's see, his comment was that he was happy the World Trade Center bombing upset us -- we could know a little bit of what he had felt. It looks like there's enough ugliness to go around that goes a bit further than loud and tasteless shirts, loud and tasteless mouths.

Dan

Understanding gratefulness’ My Uncle, one of the few who survived 4 years of Auswitch and Buchenwald is 97 years old and alive; he extremely dislikes the word Ugly American. My aunt and grandma kissed the pavement the Americans walked in 1945. Countless people worldwide own their lives and children’s future to the American people. Many years ago I immigrated to the US and build a live and business in the country of the free.
All I can say, thank you mothers and fathers of the brave, who are buried all over the world for others freedom,

Thank you again, Great Nation and Great People.

Roland

Well said, Roland! The absolute truth!

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:
Ogres are not limited to Americans, or safari hunting! They are everywhere, and come from all countries, and in all colors!

Absolutely true, but I think we react stronger when we feel that they are giving hunting a bad name (no matter where they come from).

Regards,
Martin

quote:

Originally posted by cewe:
Did you know that Swedish men are famous for being raging queens?

Ah, you still belive that old tale? Let me tell you a secret! That is was your wifes want you to belive, because they don't want you to know what they are doing with the Swedish men while the Finlandian men are in their usual drunken stupor!

Regards,
Martin

I am an ugly American. After looking at the pictures of my first safari, the next time I go I am going to use a stand in to pose next to my trophies!!!!!!

Cats,
I had originally planned to tell you to fold you soapbox up into a nice tight little package and then stick it up your ass.
However, after giving it some thought let me just tell you that none of the seats in the terminal were coveted as there were plenty of spaces available. So I am actually at fault for not giving you all the information. I would have probably had the same reaction you did if the terminal had been full, but since it wasn't...

Ironic isn't it, that the countries we give the most financial aid to do their best to trip us up at every turn. Speaking of foreign aid, I'm all for cutting it completely and using it for the poor in our country! I too get to travel to many countries and far and away, people from Europe and the Middle East, believe the Left Wing blatherings of the news channels and extremly dislike the US and its foriegn policies. Funny though, this country is the top destination for emmigration in the world. Go figure.

Its funny how foreign aid, WW2 war cemetries, immigration, and numerous other world events become relevant to a discussion on bad behaviour by some American hunters by other American hunters on an African hunting forum.

Maybe some people are feeling a little insecure.

Just for the record, I've seen quite a few Americans in Australia, and ALL were the most polite, quiet, and friendly people around.

The noisest were/are social groups of Aussies trying to talk over each other.
John L.

NitroX : sir you are incorrect those items are revelant to all true Americans always! You need to be American to understand.

First off, I've not been to Africa. But I have traveled arround the country and internationally a fair bit.

I think the important thing here is not which nation has the most rude tourists (this would be a rather intense competition I've seen some real loud mouths traveling from many countries), or whose country as done more for others, or whose country has the best looking women, or best food, or corrupt politicians, or best gunsmiths, but rather the importance of our image as hunters, shooters, and sportsmen. We need to always comport ourselves in the best manner and do what we can to set good examples to educate the public. Slob hunters can come from anywhere, any country, from urban/sub-urban areas, and from rural ones.

Marterius: Are you sure we´re really drunk when we seem to be? What´s your wife doing when you´re doing the ugly dance with mine?



And we are doing each other a favor when we spread our genes in a neighborly fashion.

To get back to Terry's original post that started this. I don't know how fair it is to judge these people since it is all a matter of perception. If it was there first trip to Africa(maybe first out of the country) and your 6th(or whatever) don't you think it reasonable that they were excited and saw things differently than yourself?

It just appears that quite a few of the responses where more geared toward the newbies spouting off or their perception of danger. Well, is there really much difference in spouting off or just being excited? Is it unreasonable for someone to see some AK's for the first time and thing "What the F?" and percieve danger?

I know Atkinson has jumped on Terry before for being an African know it all after just a few trips and now it appears Terry is looking down on these guys?

No offence meant, but the world is full of people with different personalities and different life experiences and I would not have it any other way. Maybe for them they did feel in danger, but instead of understanding this, you chose to look down on them.

quote:

Originally posted by cewe:
Marterius: Are you sure we´re really drunk when we seem to be? What´s your wife doing when you´re doing the ugly dance with mine?



And we are doing each other a favor when we spread our genes in a neighborly fashion.

True about the genes, but don't for a moment think I belive Finns can fake drunken stupor that well! In particular not after drinking that much vodka!

Martin

How dare you! I think you should be thankful for all those Finns that died in WW2 fighting the Russians when they invaded Scandanavia early in WW2!

Oops, is that relevant to anything here.

***

The only 'ugly' (actually funny) tourists I have met on safari travels, were not hunters. Not sure what nationality they were, will try to remember if it is relevant.

These are the guys that wear all the tailored kharki. It is rewarding to watch them strutting around the game viewing balcony on the deck below the bar overlooking the game viewing waterhole of the 5 star hotel. With suitable stern determined expressions. Doing the "Hemingway" I call it.

quote:

Originally posted by NitroX:
Its funny how foreign aid, WW2 war cemetries, immigration, and numerous other world events become relevant to a discussion on bad behaviour by some American hunters by other American hunters on an African hunting forum.

Maybe some people are feeling a little insecure.

Nitro,

YEP! My feelings exactly. Some of my fellow Americans sure have been senstiive about this "ugly American" topic. I didn't take this topic to be a slam against all Americans. When I travel I just try to be a gentleman and use the manners that I was taught when growing up. It's always seems to work for me.

I also try to show a genuine interest in any culture/nation that I'm visiting. On my first hunting trip to South Africa, I was taking a break during the mid-day and was reading a book. One of the PH's asked what I was reading. I told him it was a history of the Anglo-Boer War. That made some BIG points with the staff (they were all Afrikaners). They didn't say anything to me directly about it but I could tell that they were surpised, and pleased, that I was taking an active interest in their history. It really was a good "ice breaker".

-Bob F.

Gentlemen,

The original post is not a slam at America. It was one man's opinion (mine) about what I thought was inappropriate behavior.

Go to Africa, wear what you want, act the way you want. Be warned, I reserve the right to make fun of you on the internet.

Regards,

Terry

Marterius: Vodka is mostly water, more than 50% of the content is just plain water!

And faking a drunken stupor is quite easy if you only have to fool "raging queens"!

there will be no spelling gramar or punctuation bitching about this OK guys time to lighten up i hunted with an outfit in new zeland and booked the trip through a friend in the hunting industry we flew out of houston and met up with the rest of the party in atlanta i think anyway these guys had booked over the phone and we had never seen them before we are sitting in the airport and theese two huge roonickers come paraiding through the airport like they just fell out of the filson catalog shoe laces to luggage and they are the loudest most obnoxuos crackers i have ever seen one was named bob we had another bob in our group with an obvious kraut name like mine so we called them bob kraut and bob shithead when we arrived in NZ these two clowns bob shithead and acc. refused to change any mony and loudly proclamed that if they wont take usd f***em and then were totaly ofended that they could not buy anything in that country although they tried and bitched alot. any way we got to the ranch we were hunting and drove by this breeding operation for stags these two jackasses through a fit like we were gonna hunt out of the breeder pen insulted the land owner guides and cook before we even got out of the car then they refused to leave the car until the ranch owner could convince them they would not be shooting his pet deer and it just kept getting worse so long story short these guys only wanted to hunt if it was a lot of hard walking no spot and stalk or tracking just walk real far thats the key so I called the owner aside and suggested he let them hog hunt at night with dogs "wink" so he sugested that and these clowns spend three nights all night chasing this maori kid and some dogs from the local pound around the bush inside the fence where there were no hogs while we sat on the porch and listened over a drink so bob kraut and I paid the guide 100 usd a day to run these guys all night for three nights and hunt stag all day by just walking there ass off all day after three days and nights they looked like all the shit had been slung out of them so we let them off the hook you should have seen bob shitheads face when he learned he had been running around an empty pasture for three days and nights and never seen a fence. he was just to tired to be much trouble after that but still an ass he then got his stag and has a great story to tell I know i enjoyed it.

How about this one?
For many years I flew from the United States to northern Quebec to hunt caribou each September. On one trip at the tiny airport in Scheffersville a loudmouth from Australia is waiting to be transported via floatplane to the same camp as the group I am with. The flight was only tolerable because the noise from the plane drowned out much of his bragging but upon our arrival at camp this blowbag goes on to tell everyone how much his rifle cost, his vast knowledge of caribou hunting (that really turned out to be just 1 prior trip coupled with some reading of outdoor magazines) how great of a camp cook he was,etc., etc.
After we unloaded our gear this "Australian joke" walks down to the beach spots a small herd of caribou and asks if he may make a stalk on them. the camp manager agreeded to it and he walks out across the tundra 100 yds sits down and shoots 2 small bulls about 200 yards awaywith a total of 5 shots. We had not been in camp more than 45 minutes and he had killed his 'bou for a 7 day hunt.
as the week rolls by we others whom actually had been in a 'bou camp before began returning to camp with 350 BC and better class bulls. This Australian !@#$%^& did nothing but whine that he couldn't kill more 'bou when he was not so drunk that he couldn't walk.
To make the story shorter when we got to Montreal at weeks end he was trying to threaten the owner of the outfit we had hunted with that if he did not get his money refunded he would "do everything in his power to ruin the companies reputation" and proceeded to tell all hunters in the airport how he was f@#$%d over by the outfitter.

quote:

Originally posted by cewe:
Marterius: Vodka is mostly water, more than 50% of the content is just plain water!

And faking a drunken stupor is quite easy if you only have to fool "raging queens"!

Cewe, I think we need to sort this out over a drink! Why not come over for the next years Big Bore meeting (and bring those new Mausers with you)!

Regards,
Martin

I have traveled all over the world, and one thing I am sure of is that people are people anywhere you go, and not a lot of difference in any of them when you cut to the core...

they are good, bad, and indifferent...

I am also damn glad to be an American, but even more blessed to be a Texan!! blessed again to live in the great state of Idaho, where politicians, bureucrats and shysters are far and few between, except the ones hanging from the trees..

If you ever get to thinking this isn't the best country in the world, take a trip anywhere!!

Marterius: I quite agree! I am actually planning to get boga to come along. But please no Explorer vodka. Pretty please? Let´s just stick to G&T´s and single malt whiskey and good cognac and Beska Droppar...the list goes on...and on...

Why "Ugly American" on an African Hunting forum?

Well -- "Ugly American" refers to the American Tourist stereotype (ignorant people dressed in ugly loud clothes with camaras taking lots of bad pictures of things they don't know about, and loudly demonstrating that ignorance -- picture Archie Bunker). Africa is the perfect place to see Americans being Tourists trying to participate in an activity that they don't know about (at least on their first trip). Instead of Hawiian shirts and shorts showing off knees you wish you'd never have seen, you'll see rifles whose stocks will split on the 3rd shot, jam with a little dust in the trigger -- which had too much oil in it, wearing shoes that will overheat and make their feet blister after a hike of 200 yards, etc (just echoing what I've seen on a PH poll that's been going around on the internet) :-)

Travel is also an opportunity where Americans might discover they are ugly. This discovery is often fascinating -- once we get over our temper tantrum about it. Most of us don't want to BE ugly.

One of Hemmingway's Africa stories -- about the guy who ran when one beast charged, whose PH dispised him because one of the trackers was killed because of the guy's lack of guts, discovered his courage and growing respect of his PH because he was willing to learn, and was discovering the fortitude he was supposed to have as a man -- until his wife shot him in the back of the head while he properly faced a charge from another beast. You get a snapshot of the PH's growing acceptance of the Ugly American who tried so hard to find his honor and respctability facing death when the PH lectured his widow about how that guy was starting to turn out alright.

Would that the world were so simple. Americans are called ugly for things that don't have to do with their individal character as much, or even for their stereotypes, but we get called it by taxicab drivers because Americans bombed their homes. We also have been called heroes when we saved people from Auschwitz (but we turned away refugees on the S. S. St. Louis on June 4, 1939, who ended up being repatriated and sent to Auschwitz, as well -- see http://www-personal.umich.edu/~froomkin/texts/m3.html).

Maybe too serious, or too off-topic -- or maybe off-color. But its what some Americans will be packing on their trip for Africa, along with their new shiny boots that are too hot and not broken in, their rifles that won't serve well for them that they are not used to shooting, and with their soft bodies too out of shape to enjoy the adventure... But still often the kind of people who gave the shirt of their back, and who would give their lives to keep people from starving or suffering under a tyrant, ready to stick their noses where it is definitely not welcome.

Dan

I guess this is what it boils down to; being an abassador for our sport. The problem is that in order to do that, you have to feel in your heart that you are a hunter with a responsibility. And if people behave in a way that can harm our sport in the eyes of others, they are a problem. In particular since they are seen and heard and the well behaved and responsible hunters are not.

There is a thread over in the Big Game forum that are exactely on the same lines as this tread in case you have not seen it...
https://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/3411043/m/973108203

Regards,
Martin

quote:

Originally posted by cewe:
Marterius: I quite agree! I am actually planning to get boga to come along. But please no Explorer vodka. Pretty please? Let´s just stick to G&T´s and single malt whiskey and good cognac and Beska Droppar...the list goes on...and on...

You are both more then welcome! G&T and single malt (Isly and Speyside) and cigars. And I should have a bottle of Martell or Camus somewhere...

Regards,
Martin

hello;
Act
Actually, in my travels, I have seen some Ugly Germans that put Americans to shame. It's always entertaining to listen to these loud obnoxious assholes bitching and complaining in their own language, thinking no one else there understands what they are saying. I gotta include my relatives in here.
A few years ago, my wife were sitting in a restaurant, enjoying our meal, when a bunch of Germans at the next table starting carrying on about the poor horses[ours] in the trailer parked out front. After a couple of minutes of this crap, I politely explained to them, in theit own tongue, that if some one doesn't understand something, it's better to keep your mouth shut. We finished our meal in complete silence.
Grizz

Pete E,



Thanks for sharing the positive reflections on the USAF fellows.

I have seen Spanish, Italians, French, and a host of others that were about as rude as it gets...What I see here is a preception from folks that have probably been nowhere except on the internet....Dressing the part etc. is not ugly, ugly is an attitude and its world wide..

To pinpoint any specific Nationality is just pure BS and ignorant beyond belief....

quote:

Four guys (two adult sons, father and grandfather) having breakfast at Afton Guest House after their return from Zimbabwe. Telling the other guests that they were glad to be "out of harm's way". That they "saw tons of guys with AKs". That "Harare was scary". That they were "lucky to get a plane out of Harare" to Johannesburg and that they had to "kick a chicken off their seat" in the airplane.

I find the above kind of funny, as I spent a couple of enjoyable days before my hunt, and a couple of days after my hunt in Harare. The only "trouble" I saw was while at the rugby match between Zim and Senegal on the first saterday afternoon. A bit of a fight broke out between the 2 teams supporters. Which is a situation that could just as well happend in Norway or the US... Other than that, it seemed no more dangerous than any other large african city. I'd actually say that it is less so than many others citys on the continent that I've been to.

Even though there were long lines waiting at the fuel stations (and some cars had been there for over a week), I saw (and we used) fuel stations that had fuel further north in Zim, so although it's a bad situation, even this varies from place to place. Just like in the rest of africa.

To sum it up, I'd say that people shouldn't be too afraid to visit Harare if given a chance.