Even though I'm new to this forum compared to some and I honestly feel like I'm walking amungst giants writing this, I feel it needs to be brought up.

After reading through a thread by T.Carr named "Ugly Americans", in (African Big Game Hunting). I had some thoughts and questions to see if any one also had interest in them.

First of all I was wondering if someone that has the weathered experience in hunting and traveling, especially to other countries, that is a major part of this sight would like to construct a helpful guide to Hunter Etiquette and then some type of "Creed of the Hunter" with both being listed on this site somewhere so people could view them?

It seems more and more that people are living better in suburban and golf club infested areas of the U.S. are choosing to use their earnings to hunt and fish. But some of these people are pushing their wealth in an arrogant and rude manner into a recreation that use to be and hopefully still has the beauty, elligance, and spirit it once was known for.

It's sad to see something so loved by generations of family and others that was looked as something honorable go by the way-side. I believe the "true" hunter knows and understands what it means to earn your knowledge of hunting and being a hunter. But with so many narrowminded and ignorant beliefs and habits with hunting today, especially from what I know in the U.S., its seems that the most who claim that they are hunters are more of,IMO, a scavenger/opportunist.

I'm farely young and I feel like a loner with these beliefs with most of the people I've been around and hunted with and this has led me to only have one or two options of hunting partners that I trust or on the other hand, the solo routine through the woods seems more and more appealing.

I personally admire the mystique of hunting that was written about from before I was born and wish it was still there but it seems that it has been reduced to nothing more than stylish camouflage, rediculous off-roading vehicles and a bumper-sticker proclaiming redneck pride or that says "Ditch the Bitch, lets' go huntin'!"

So, to end this I'm just putting this in text to see if there is actually other people out there that believe close the same beliefs or to see if they have been dimnished into a pool chewing tobacco and beer where cigars and fine wines use to stand.

quote:

Originally posted by Magnum61:
So, to end this I'm just putting this in text to see if there is actually other people out there that believe close the same beliefs or to see if they have been dimnished (sp) into a pool (of) chewing tobacco and beer where cigars and fine wines use to stand.

Most of the problem lies in your last statement.
“Buffy, bring the Bentley ‘round, we’re going on a Foxhunt…â€
Your statement is no less stereotypical than mine.

While I don’t drink fine wine (I do have an occasional glass of Willamette Valley wine) or smoke cigars and I do not chew, but I have friends that do (I do drink an occasional beer) WE ARE ALL HUNTERS.

I do not advocate shooting-up road signs and buildings, shooting from vehicles, or bumper stickers that read “ditch the bitch…†I do feel hunting is a God given right.

Magnum61, it is the 2-98 rule again:

2% of the people cause 98% of the problems.

May I suggest, if you don’t like other hunters, buy yourself a lot of property or an island.

Oh, I forgot to add this.

The best we can do as responsible hunters is to TRAIN-UP the young hunters around us and teach them proper hunting etiquette.

AND EVERY TIME a non-hunter says something about the a**holes that ruin it for everybody with their terrible behavior, AGREE WITH THEM and tell them why YOU are different.

I can't be responsible for irresponsible hunters anymore than you can, but I can explain (and show) that all hunters and sportsmen are not that way.

The only reason for the references to cigars and wines was to show the extreme contrast so atleast a few could understand what was being said. I do like good wines and beer but I don't smoke or use any tobacco product.

I completely understand the idea of all of us being hunters, if it wasn't for all of us banding together in one way or another we wouldn't have what is left today.

It's just hard to believe how disgusting it has become and a second thing that worries me is that there isn't many people replying to this on this site. I posted this on another forum site with the refernce to the "Ugly Americans" thread and there are twice as many replys over there. I'm not going to start assuming anything but I thought people would be more responsive.

Groups that work their butts off to take down our traditions and rights use awareness as their front-runner to gain supporters.

So there is my piece of awareness for us.

quote:

Originally posted by Magnum61:
I completely understand the idea of all of us being hunters, if it wasn't for all of us banding together in one way or another we wouldn't have what is left today.

Groups that work their butts off to take down our traditions and rights use awareness as their front-runner to gain supporters.

So there is my piece of awareness for us.

I agree with you 100%.

The anti's work 10 times harder than the hunters and the hunters advocates do.
Sitting around talking about those dirty rotten anti's, doesn't cut it, you gotta
DO SOMETHING!

I dislike people with the notion that just because they paid their $35 and joined the NRA (or SCI), that's it, I did my work.
That's NOT it or we're gonna loose...

This is turning into a fine case of productive criticism and discussion. Just wish someone else would jump in.

Magnum you're not too far off the mark. Say someone lives in suburbia and plans a dream trip in the country, they buy their tags, read the maps and do all the homework they can. The big trip arrives and off they go, they're confronted by no hunting signs, treated rudely by the locals, not given permission because they aren't local, badgered by the local game warden etc. Now remember that these guys are on their "dream hunt" and it's going badly--all they want to do now is fill their tags and get the hell out. They feel like they have a bit of a "right" to fill those damned tags, after all they are citizens of that country (maybe/maybe not) but they have done everything the "right Way" ......so far. They've been treated badly by almost everyone they have come into contact with and finally they decide--"let's just do it". So they break a law or act unethically whatever it is, it could be anything really, but the point is they act badly out of a kind of desperation. Then they get caught and everyone talks about it for years to come. Just some more slob hunters from the big city say the locals..yup just more slob hunters.

Pity isn't it?

the chef

Respect for just about everything thing is diminishing. When I hunt I go overboard to set the best example I can, because I represent the sport. I feel so happy to just be out in the woods that I cannot understand those that waste or disrespect the opportunity. I educate every time I get a chance about not just hunters ethics, but human ethics. I cannot tell you the number of scopes or actions I have offered to tighten up at the shooting range when I see that look that things are not going right. I carry a 22 pistol for the girlfriend of that guy who just bought a new pistol that intimidates both of them. I'm also willing to give some helpful hints if people are open to them. The first time someone acts the least bit aggravated, botherd, or put off, I bow out of the situation politly and immediately. I have seen many returns on this type of help. People who keep comintg back to the shooting range and those that have become long term hunters. My favorite is the 70 year old lady that put enough money together cleaning up army surplus rifle to shoot and then selling them for a profit that she could buy herself a competition black powder sillohuette rifle that she has a ball competeing with at matches. She looked at my old rifle and asked about it. I told her it wasn't hard to fix up just hard work and some patience. Her grandchildren shoot with her when they are in town.

calgarychef1-

You know, I would have agreed with you a couple of years ago but during those years I had a chance to be a guide in the U.S. and I learned one thing. NOTHING IS GURANTEED not matter how much money. There is the old saying, "SHIT HAPPENS", and the thing is that most suburban based hunters a pretty unsavy when it comes to traveling on your own and being social with goodwill to the area you are visiting even in local areas.


Not everyone can be a Hemmingway or a T. Roosevelt in their travels and heaven knows that the odds of someone with those types of qualities would never come out of the suburbs in todays generations.

So for right now, with no disrespect just constructive criticism, I would agree with the locals in the terms used as slob-hunters.

I think, Magnum61, that there a lot of variables as to what is the creed/etiquette/ethics of hunting. It ranges from the meat hunter to the trophy hunter, includes the PH and guide. It goes from those that apparently feel that one deer poached on a ranch means that ranch is contaminated forever, to those that feel if a ranch has less than XXXXXX acre, it is an in the bag game farm and should be looked down on loudly. There is a loud group than proclaim if you didn't drop the XXXX with one shot in less than 20 feet, you should stay home till you figure it out.

Somewhere in all that, the average hunter finds a place to stand.

A good deal of the issue for me is about respect. Respect for the animal, the land, other people, and yourself. Maintain that balance, you won't be far off. JMHO.

I don't know many around here that don't take a good chew now and then and have a cold beer by the fire.We also like to ride ATV's and dirt bikes.My favorite ofcourse is my 250 Yamaha YZ.It sure gets your attention and if you make the whole trip without dumping it a "Cold Beer" is in order.

What does chewing tobacco and haveing a Beer have to do with hunter edicate?

Jayco

quote:

Originally posted by jaycocreek:
I don't know many around here that don't take a good chew now and then and have a cold beer by the fire.We also like to ride ATV's and dirt bikes.My favorite ofcourse is my 250 Yamaha YZ.It sure gets your attention and if you make the whole trip without dumping it a "Cold Beer" is in order.

What does chewing tobacco and haveing a Beer have to do with hunter edicate?

Jayco

Jayco, read the fourth post.

Whoops!!!Sorry!!!

I think I'll have a cigar and steel some of the wifes wine....

Jayco

Ok, I'll bite. I'm not sure exactly what you want to know about "etiquette". When I hunt, especially out of state or across the big pond, I try to be the anti-steroetypical hunter. On guided hunts I jump in & pull my weight whenever I can, not sit back & let the guide/trackers/staff, etc. do things. The best compliment I can get from a local in another state is; "really, you're from California"? I like to fit in when I'm off to another local to hunt, not stick out. I have been treated like calgarychef1 has been, but not often. I have taught my kids the same attitude, but like you I have very few hunting buddies because some don't share my views about local cultures or even treating the animals we hunt w/ a certain respect. Now I'm bloviating, but you asked. BTW, I like fine wine, good beer & to appreciate both you can't use tobacco.

quote:

Originally posted by calgarychef1:
Magnum you're not too far off the mark. Say someone lives in suburbia and plans a dream trip in the country, they buy their tags, read the maps and do all the homework they can. The big trip arrives and off they go, they're confronted by no hunting signs, treated rudely by the locals, not given permission because they aren't local, badgered by the local game warden etc.

Now remember that these guys are on their "dream hunt" and it's going badly--all they want to do now is fill their tags and get the hell out. They feel like they have a bit of a "right" to fill those damned tags, after all they are citizens of that country (maybe/maybe not) but they have done everything the "right Way" ......so far.

They've been treated badly by almost everyone they have come into contact with and finally they decide--"let's just do it". So they break a law or act unethically whatever it is, it could be anything really, but the point is they act badly out of a kind of desperation. Then they get caught and everyone talks about it for years to come. Just some more slob hunters from the big city say the locals..yup just more slob hunters.

Pity isn't it?

the chef

Too bad for them. No hunting signs usually mean "private property," at least where I come from.
It really doesn't matter to me if these guys are on their “dream hunt.â€
For me stooping to illegal or unethical measures to have their “hunt of a lifetime†would leave such a bad taste in my mouth that it would be worse than having the “worst hunt of a lifetime.â€
At least I would have a good story to tell AND my integrity…

Maybe from now on every hunt I go on will be my "hunt of a lifetime."
That way no laws will apply. FREEDOM AT LAST!
Just because these guys felt they were treated badly by some local-yokels doesn’t give them justification to break the law.
This is exactly what Magnum61 is talking about.

quote:

Originally posted by Magnum61:
calgarychef1-

You know, I would have agreed with you a couple of years ago but during those years I had a chance to be a guide in the U.S. and I learned one thing. NOTHING IS GURANTEED not matter how much money. There is the old saying, "SHIT HAPPENS", and the thing is that most suburban based hunters a pretty unsavvy when it comes to traveling on your own and being social with goodwill to the area you are visiting even in local areas.

Not everyone can be a Hemmingway or a T. Roosevelt in their travels and heaven knows that the odds of someone with those types of qualities would never come out of the suburbs in todays generations.

So for right now, with no disrespect just constructive criticism, I would agree with the locals in the terms used as slob-hunters.

Or law breakers. Both sides have a point, but, and it’s a BIG but, the locals don’t have the right of control over public hunting lands as if it was their own, and the non-locals don’t have the right to run slip-shod over the locals and treat them like crap.

I have been on both sides of this, and I am neither unsavvy or a slob.
I have hunted in areas within 25 miles of my home where the “locals†made me feel unwelcome.
Kind-of funny as I have lived in this area over 40 years, which is as long or longer than most of the “locals†actually have, especially the 25-30 year olds. You do the math.

quote:

Originally posted by fredj338:
Ok, I'll bite. I'm not sure exactly what you want to know about "etiquette". When I hunt, especially out of state or across the big pond, I try to be the anti-stereotypical hunter. On guided hunts I jump in & pull my weight whenever I can, not sit back & let the guide/trackers/staff, etc. do things.
The best compliment I can get from a local in another state is; "really, you're from California"?
I like to fit in when I'm off to another local to hunt, not stick out. I have been treated like calgarychef1 has been, but not often. I have taught my kids the same attitude, but like you I have very few hunting buddies because some don't share my views about local cultures or even treating the animals we hunt w/ a certain respect. Now I'm bloviating, but you asked.
BTW, I like fine wine, good beer & to appreciate both you can't use tobacco.

I agree with you and appreciate the California comment.

quote:

Originally posted by Slim_Zippy:
Respect for just about everything thing is diminishing.

When I hunt I go overboard to set the best example I can, because I represent the sport. I feel so happy to just be out in the woods that I cannot understand those that waste or disrespect the opportunity. I educate every time I get a chance about not just hunters ethics, but human ethics.
I cannot tell you the number of scopes or actions I have offered to tighten up at the shooting range when I see that look that things are not going right. I carry a 22 pistol for the girlfriend of that guy who just bought a new pistol that intimidates both of them. I'm also willing to give some helpful hints if people are open to them. The first time someone acts the least bit aggravated, botherd, or put off, I bow out of the situation politly and immediately.
I have seen many returns on this type of help. People who keep coming back to the shooting range and those that have become long term hunters. My favorite is the 70 year old lady that put enough money together cleaning up army surplus rifle to shoot and then selling them for a profit that she could buy herself a competition black powder silhouette rifle that she has a ball competing with at matches. She looked at my old rifle and asked about it. I told her it wasn't hard to fix up just hard work and some patience. Her grandchildren shoot with her when they are in town.

Slim Zippy, you hit the nail on the head with your first sentence.
This is exactly what Magnum61 is talking about. Lack of respect FOR ANYTHING.

AND I love the story of the 70 year old lady. She reminds me of my 100-year old Grandma.

This is what our sport needs more than anything, outreach.
Unfortunately, it is what our sport gets little of…

The problem I see here is that you guys seem to be throwing a bad apple into the bin. I own a ber here in Montana and during the fall I see hunters from all over nearly every day. To the vast majority of them it's just a vacation with their buddies away from their families. Of course they'd like to shoot the big one, but I honestly think that that is secondary. You will always find the dorks that are there for only one purpose, but as mentioned most are just there to get out of the cities and away from their daily routines and enjoy the grat outdoors. Of course that is just my opinion.

quote:

Originally posted by MontMike:
The problem I see here is that you guys seem to be throwing a bad apple into the bin.
I own a ber here in Montana and during the fall I see hunters from all over nearly every day. To the vast majority of them it's just a vacation with their buddies away from their families.
Of course they'd like to shoot the big one, but I honestly think that that is secondary.
You will always find the dorks that are there for only one purpose, but as mentioned most are just there to get out of the cities and away from their daily routines and enjoy the grat outdoors. Of course that is just my opinion.

A BAD APPLE?
MontMike, that is "dorks," plural, isn't it?
I did not say that the MAJORITY of hunters caused the problems, but and it's a BIG but, the problems the MINORITY of unethical hunters cause can and often do overshadow the positive examples set by the rest.

quote:

Originally posted by Flippy:
I do not advocate shooting-up road signs and buildings, shooting from vehicles, or bumper stickers that read “ditch the bitch…†I do feel hunting is a God given right.
Magnum61, it is the 2-98 rule again:
2% of the people cause 98% of the problems.

That is what I said. And unfortunatly the rest of us pay for the mistakes of the few.

Bullet holes in road signs and the negative examples set by a few a**hole hunters don't fix themselves...

JMHO

I'm still not sure about this one and what was meant.But it is alot cheaper to by a half of Beef even sometimes to the locals,travel X amount of miles and then an Outfitter...Can't be for food..Must be a sport...

Sports are expensive and I only ride bikes and cruise on ATV's for fun...

Just what is hunting.Food or Sport to you?

Jayco

quote:

Originally posted by jaycocreek:
I'm still not sure about this one and what was meant.
But it is alot cheaper to by a half of Beef even sometimes to the locals,travel X amount of miles and then an Outfitter...Can't be for food..Must be a sport...

Sports are expensive and I only ride bikes and cruise on ATV's for fun...

Just what is hunting.Food or Sport to you?

Jayco

Jayco, both, AND recreation.
Unless you hit a game animal while riding your ATV, it will never be anything but recreation, unless you compete, then it will be sport.

The great thing about "shooting sports" (not my label, but universally excepted) is that it can be fun (recreational plinking, target shooting, varminting, etc.), sport (competition) AND food with pretty much the same gear and a nominal budget.

I don't know how much your ATV cost when you bought it or what it's worth now, but my first all around rifle (99SAV, 300SAV) cost me $200 used.
Needless to say it is worth at least that much now.

I have a friend that has 6 quads, a fancy race-type enclosed trailer and the whole deal. Every two years he buys a NEW pair of quads and sells the oldest pair. So he has $30-40K invested in quads and stuff (tires, pipes, motor work, etc.) plus the trick trailer.

He has the same problem as hunters do. The small minority of riders that have no respect for anything, do not stay on designated trails, tear up areas that they aren't supposed to, cause noise problems, harass wildlife, etc., etc..........

He tells me the same thing about the locals when he goes riding.
Sounds like a broken record.

quote:

When I hunt I go overboard to set the best example I can, because I represent the sport.

If we are looking for a general rule of hunting behaviour, I think Slim_Zippy are right. Always think of yourself as an ambassador for hunting.

The problem is that in order to do that, you have to have to identify youself as a responsible hunter, and be aware of the problmems that will face you in this role. Now, how many of these "suburban" chaps going away with the buddies identifies themselves as hunters? I think this is the point that Magnum61 is making, but I use other words.

For us that hangs out here it is not that difficult; I think I can speak for more or less all of us when I say that hunting is one of the most important things in our lives. However, can we demand that respect, that attitude, from all other hunters? I say yes, out of respect for the animals we hunt, do we ought to demand that respect and that attitude. But how to achive it? The problem is not putting up a set of rules. The problem is to make people take these rules into their hearts, as moral obligations and not just only curious traditions or perhaps even rules to be bended.

We have a mandatory hunters training program here in Sweden that you have to pass befor you can get a gun licence. Hunting ethics is a very strong part, as is safety. I will not make myself unpopular here by suggesting something like that for you over there... However, I think in the long run this is a matter making people feel what it means to be a hunter, not having a set of rules... A matter of identity.

Regards,
Martin

Good stuff Martin.

I feel the mandatory hunting course is a GREAT idea. Hunters under the age of 14 must take a Hunters Safety Couse in Oregon to hunt. It used to be offered at the school level, but we can't have that anymore...

The only people who will think it is a bad idea are the ones who feel they are too good for that.

We are ALL ambassadors of hunting and we need to remember that EVERY TIME WE HUNT.

Slim Zippy is right.

Something I read in the Houston Chronicle about 15 yrs ago, a suggestion to help with the hunter image. If stocking up on the adult beverages for a hunting trip, don't wear your camo into the store when doing so. Absolutely nothing wrong with having some beer or other alcohol at camp in the evening when the hunting day is over, but buying it while wearing camo (in hunting season), gives the image of being a drunker yahoo firing an AK-47 at anything moving in the woods.

Ever since I read it, I have followed that advice.

I don't usually drink in camp, but a wise suggestion none the less.

Sunday, my wife and I went to a place over in Homer where you can park, watch people fish, watch the charters come in, etc. Lots of folks use it....it's kept very clean, no trash, etc. Two rigs from outside park and 5 guys jump out....two go fishing......just walk right up where others have been fishing for hours, casting over them, etc.....lots of beach available.....now the others, parked right next to me, begin eating fried chicken and throwing the bones and skin on the ground right where people walk and kids play. No big deal???? They were 10' from a maintained 55gal trash drum, they were dressed in the obligatory camo, and one had the infamous "happiness is a warm gut pile" t-shirt on.....they sent a real message and set a great example, eh? I won't even get into the language used after I politely asked them clean it up. The strongest statement from me was, "we respect what we have up here." Are all people from outside like this????? Of course not! But others may not feel the same as I do, especially after the foul mouthed tirade heard by many present. We do see more and more people like this and here it's referred to locally as the "leastcoast attitude."

Two words come to mind for this discussion, that don't cost a dime to use: manners and respect. Putting these words, that are almost a foreign language to many,into practice would go a long way to improving the image of hunters and outdoor types in general. I guess, by today's standards, I was brought up differently and I'm showing my age.....but little things can make big differences......

Joe

quote:

Originally posted by ovis:
Two words come to mind for this discussion, that don't cost a dime to use: manners and respect. Putting these words, that are almost a foreign language to many,into practice would go a long way to improving the image of hunters and outdoor types in general. I guess, by today's standards, I was brought up differently and I'm showing my age.....but little things can make big differences......

Joe

Yep.

People that don't respect others, don't respect themselves...

Gosh guys can'twe just be friends?
I have had the problem with slob unters, and I have been told that I told tha I coud not hunt a place because of sobhunters.
My mother, rest her soul, loved to hunt and anyone who asked could hunt her place. If you didn't ask she would ask that you leave. One time a couple of great white hunters told her that she wold have to throw them off, they would hunt where they pleased. A mistake. Little 5'5'' 105 lb Mimi pulled her .38 that she always carried. marched them back to the house and called the sheriff, who was a good friend, they went before the judge she helped to elect, and lost their guns and truck. She gave them coffee while they waited on the sheriff, and tried to give them breakfast but they had lost their appitite . As they left the Courthouse she invited then to bring the kids back to fish, if they stopped at the house first. They were men enough to say thankyou.
She later had the sheriff give the truck back.
My dad said that the way you act to another person is a reflection of what you are, not what they are.
Judge Sharpe

JudgeSharpe, you DO remind me of my Dad.

I mean that in a GOOD way...

Thanks
Judge Sharpe

My home country is much smaller and much more densely populated than yours. Hunting is for some reasons not as poular any longer as it once was but the pressure is still high and, as stated, there are real jerks out there who shouldn't be running around with a firearem shooting at "things".

For this reason I am quite happy with our "asshole filter system" which consists of a quite demanding practical and theoretical exam, the preparation time is usually somewhere between 6 and 9 months.


Many complain about this because they say it is too complicated and time consuming but it keeps a lot of idiots out of the sport and, at the same time, very much enhances the sense of safety for the ones who hunt.