Yo ! Please forgive me if I have missed the discussion on this already. I was watching the excellent Saeed's videos on the 2011 hunt and watched quite a few times the buffalo charge where Nelson and his PH got themselves in harm's way. The PH had to open the bolt of his rifle and manually pull out the brass to enable him to close the bolt chambering a new round .. which was absolutely necessary as otherwise people would have been hurt or killed very shortly after ... It looked like this wasn't a new problem to the chap ... Anyone know if he got the damn rifle repaired? As a client I would really like the guide's rifle to work 100%...

I have seen several PH guns that were in varying states of disrepair. I remember a 375 that had no front sight. The dovetail in the ramp was empty. Another had a Mauser of some sort with no safety. I have hunted with two PHs who kept the bolt of their rifle partly raised because "the safety doesn't always work". Then I have also seen a gorgeous Westley double and a 458 by Sterling Davenport. If you go enough times, you'll see anything.

quote:

I have hunted with two PHs who kept the bolt of their rifle partly raised because "the safety doesn't always work".

I had seen this three times too.
Very Bad...

Dean Kendall is such a good buffalo hunter that the Tanzanian government made him remove the extractor from his bolt gun so as to give the buffalo a fair chance.

It is "fair" chase after all.

Yea, but if your rifle doesn't work, the term chase starts to have a new meaning.
As in feet don't fail me now!

Some people on here seem to think leaving the bolt partially open is the ultimate in safety. Some don't reccomend even chambering a round till ready to shoot. And these are people who are 'experts' in gun handling. I don't think I have ever read so many who distrust safties.

I've seen a well respected P.H. leave a live round in the chamber and pull the trigger as he closed the bolt, releasing the firing pin spring without the force need to strike the primer. If he needed to shoot, he raised and lowered the bolt (all this with pre-64 Model 70 Winchester). He never engaged the safety.

The problem with the technique (among others) was demonstrated in a Man Magnum article. When the writer tested this method, he found that when a rifle is dropped vertically on its butt from any distance onto hard ground, the gun can fire. The article tested several Model 70's and a couple of Mausers and all fired when dropped... if I remember correctly. That's not the safety failing, it has to do with inertia, I reckon? And who doesn't fall down occassionally?

It scared me.

quote:

Originally posted by zimbabwe:
Some people on here seem to think leaving the bolt partially open is the ultimate in safety. Some don't reccomend even chambering a round till ready to shoot. And these are people who are 'experts' in gun handling. I don't think I have ever read so many who distrust safties.

quote:

Originally posted by zimbabwe:
Some people on here seem to think leaving the bolt partially open is the ultimate in safety. Some don't reccomend even chambering a round till ready to shoot. And these are people who are 'experts' in gun handling. I don't think I have ever read so many who distrust safties.

When following up wounded game this is perfectly acceptable and the gun is safe till the bolt is fully closed and the way to carry this is gun pointing down in case you need to release hold of the bolt. I have used this technique often on Mausers and will continue to do so because many firearm problems I have come across are associated with the so called safety.

I cannot abide someone walking behind me with a loaded gun.

quote:

Originally posted by zimbabwe:
Some people on here seem to think leaving the bolt partially open is the ultimate in safety. Some don't reccomend even chambering a round till ready to shoot. And these are people who are 'experts' in gun handling. I don't think I have ever read so many who distrust safties.

I think anyone who trusts a safety completely is a fool! The best safety in the world is of no value if it fails while the rifle is pointed at another person.
The most reliable safety is an empty chamber till the follow-up of stalk starts, and is backed by a shooter who remains aware of where is rifle is pointing.

In the case of the double rifle the shooter must be always aware of where his rifle is pointing even when unloaded as any rifle should. The K-gun and Blaser are the only double rifles that do not depend on a safety, but are simply not cocked till needed. The Blaser S-2 has another thing that negates some of the safeness of that rifle but has nothing to do with what we are discussing here.

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I cannot abide someone walking behind me with a loaded gun.

How do your clients carry tgheir guns then?

I told my PH on day 1 that he might get tired of the repetition, but that every time we were to get out of the truck to start a walk or stalk I would be asking him how he wanted me to load my rifle (solids with a soft on top, all softs, all solids, etc.). On top of that I also told him I would not chamber a round until he instructed me to do so.

Maybe it was a bit over the top, but my PH always knew what was in my rifle and when it was loaded.

I'm sorry, but I'm just an ignorant redneck from Mississippi and my Father taught me from day one on gunhandling that 1.You NEVER point the gun at anything you don't want to shoot 2. You don't take the safety off till READY to shoot 3. An unloaded gun is worthless for it's intended purpose. I have been fortunate to do all my hunts in Africa (8 in all) with PH's who were aware I loaded my guns upon exit from the vehicle and unloaded them before re-entering the vehicle. I would not hunt with one who did not agree with this system.

Zimbabwe: I'm not an ignorant redneck from Mississippi, I'm more like an educated hilldick from California, but I would concur with you on all of the points above.

Regarding #2...taking safety off till READY to shoot, READY is the operative word. In Africa following up wounded dangerous game, my safety is off beginning from the moment I take my first step. I had no hesitation either telling the PH I'm hot. (I'll be damned, ya know I never did get a charge come to think of it.) When taking a shot utilizing the element of surprise, the safety comes off a hair before I engage the trigger.

Becoming intimate with my rifle(s) over the years through practice, gave me the assurance the safety was always functional. Guns were always cleaned, oiled and in sound working order.

Firearm safety starts with the rifle handler, whoever he may be. After 4 safaris I alone carry my rifle while hunting. If in DG country, you will never have a chance to load an empty chamber. I know a few guys who load and let bolt down while trigger is being held. I use the safety but like any mechanical device it can fail. So as not to be surprised muzzle control is a must. Always conscious of where the muzzles are pointed. and making moving the muzzles always from possible compromising situations.

Mike


Looking down the barrel of a 500 Jeffery

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

I cannot abide someone walking behind me with a loaded gun.

How do your clients carry tgheir guns then?

Depends Saeed on the situation. If loaded I prefer the hunter standing on my side, however sometimes this is not possible.

quote:

Originally posted by zimbabwe:
I'm sorry, but I'm just an ignorant redneck from Mississippi and my Father taught me from day one on gunhandling that 1.You NEVER point the gun at anything you don't want to shoot 2. You don't take the safety off till READY to shoot 3. An unloaded gun is worthless for it's intended purpose. I have been fortunate to do all my hunts in Africa (8 in all) with PH's who were aware I loaded my guns upon exit from the vehicle and unloaded them before re-entering the vehicle. I would not hunt with one who did not agree with this system.

Guess we will not be hunting together.

Are we talking about "one in the chamber" and the magazine fully loaded,or the rifle fully unloaded?

Regards, D. Nelson

I am confused, the suggestion seems to be that hunting with a loaded rifle on safe is in someway unacceptable. Whenever I have hunted in a dangerous game area I have always been instructed by the PH to load the weapon, put it on safe and carry it in that mode. I have never had a PH suggest that I should carry the weapon unloaded and load at the time the weapon is needed. Maybe I am misinterpreting the earlier comments.

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Originally posted by MJines:
I am confused, the suggestion seems to be that hunting with a loaded rifle on safe is in someway unacceptable. Whenever I have hunted in a dangerous game area I have always been instructed by the PH to load the weapon, put it on safe and carry it in that mode. I have never had a PH suggest that I should carry the weapon unloaded and load at the time the weapon is needed. Maybe I am misinterpreting the earlier comments.

Different strokes for different folks.

If for example you are mixing it with DG in the long grass then it is recommended you load your rifle. But to leave camp with a loaded rifle and to carry it like this all day is courting disaster.

It is a fallacy that danger lies behind every bush and most here can probably chamber a round in just over a second.

It is not really my job to dictate policy but rather advise. We deal with many who are new to DG and indeed who are new to hunting and firearms.

Better to be safe than sorry.

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:

quote:

Originally posted by zimbabwe:
I'm sorry, but I'm just an ignorant redneck from Mississippi and my Father taught me from day one on gunhandling that 1.You NEVER point the gun at anything you don't want to shoot 2. You don't take the safety off till READY to shoot 3. An unloaded gun is worthless for it's intended purpose. I have been fortunate to do all my hunts in Africa (8 in all) with PH's who were aware I loaded my guns upon exit from the vehicle and unloaded them before re-entering the vehicle. I would not hunt with one who did not agree with this system.

Guess we will not be hunting together.

Sorry fairgame, but you can add me to the list who won't be hunting with you as well. I have no issue leaving the chamber empty and the safety on when hunting with a guide, only loading a cartridge into the chamber when instructed. I also have no problem following up a wounded animal in relatively open country with an unloaded chamber. But I'll be damned if I'm going to go follow up a wounded dangerous animal in the thick stuff with an unloaded gun.

quote:

Originally posted by chuck375:

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:

quote:

Originally posted by zimbabwe:
I'm sorry, but I'm just an ignorant redneck from Mississippi and my Father taught me from day one on gunhandling that 1.You NEVER point the gun at anything you don't want to shoot 2. You don't take the safety off till READY to shoot 3. An unloaded gun is worthless for it's intended purpose. I have been fortunate to do all my hunts in Africa (8 in all) with PH's who were aware I loaded my guns upon exit from the vehicle and unloaded them before re-entering the vehicle. I would not hunt with one who did not agree with this system.

Guess we will not be hunting together.

Sorry fairgame, but you can add me to the list who won't be hunting with you as well. I have no issue leaving the chamber empty and the safety on when hunting with a guide, only loading a cartridge into the chamber when instructed. I also have no problem following up a wounded animal in relatively open country with an unloaded chamber. But I'll be damned if I'm going to go follow up a wounded dangerous animal in the thick stuff with an unloaded gun.

Looks like Andrew addressed that right before your post.

Andrew and I are hunting together in 5 months. There will be a couple potentially dangerous critters on the menu. He and I will certainly discuss firearm safety techniques and philosophies in camp and have somewhat already via email.

I would point out that just because I personally have good gun safety skills and most likely a majority that post here also do that does not mean that everyone with the finances to hunt wild Africa has the same skills.

I have a friend that is a Brown Bear guide and had a client show up in camp with a beauty of the Weatherby with Swarovski scope already mounted. When the guide recommended heading to the area to check the sight in the client replied, "Don't they do that at the factory"? He also did not know how to put the rifle on safe. He had NEVER fired it.

We are not all stamped out of a mold.

A lot of this, I think, comes down to the ridiculous practice of carrying a rifle on your shoulder, often with the muzzle pointed forward in an effort to look like a "White Hunter". With it pointed forward, ithas to be muzzle down, or it is unbalanced. With it pointing back, you can't see where it is pointed. I was raised in the hills of KY, and we carried guns generally if we were anywhere past the road. I was taught strict gun safety from the time I was 6 and got my first .22. You carry your rifle at what I would call port arms. It is always muzzle up, not pointing at anyone around you no matter what their direction, and always under control. It is always ready to use instantly. If you need to use your hands for something, it is on a sling. Period. No danger and no delay.

I have also never hunted with a PH that asked me to leave the chamber empty. Fairgame, how do you have your double rifle users carry the weapon? With both barrels empty?

I've always loaded the chamber and put the rifle on safe when leaving the vehicle and unloading the rifle once returning to the vehicle. I also don't trust the safety and maintain vigil over where the muzzles are pointing.

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

I've always loaded the chamber and put the rifle on safe when leaving the vehicle and unloading the rifle once returning to the vehicle. I also don't trust the safety and maintain vigil over where the muzzles are pointing.

Me too.

Both PH's that I have hunted with agreed that this was the method for the hunt.

Here in New Zealand we have gun safety courses that have to be passed before you qualify for a gun license. The tutors always recommend that the bolt is half open with a chamber in the round when hunting. They do not recommend chambering a round until you are in the hunting area where you expect to see and shoot game.

The reason for the half open bolt is that we hunt in very rugged, steep, thick bush and tripping, stumbling or falling is so common.

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:

quote:

Originally posted by zimbabwe:
Some people on here seem to think leaving the bolt partially open is the ultimate in safety. Some don't reccomend even chambering a round till ready to shoot. And these are people who are 'experts' in gun handling. I don't think I have ever read so many who distrust safties.

When following up wounded game this is perfectly acceptable and the gun is safe till the bolt is fully closed and the way to carry this is gun pointing down in case you need to release hold of the bolt. I have used this technique often on Mausers and will continue to do so because many firearm problems I have come across are associated with the so called safety.

I cannot abide someone walking behind me with a loaded gun.

Just sent this on to Dean, maybe we'll get an explanation from him. I was with him in June before this hunt and his 458 Lott was well used but functioning fine. Tell you what, I'd likely more sooner trust Dean Kendall with broken gun than most people with a functioning one.

His .458 threw a couple of rounds at this one.

It seems we have different iodea for this from different parts of teh world.

I know what we are supposed to do. Like only chamber a round when you intend to shoot. Like never point a loaded rifle at anything you did not want to shoot.

But, I think a reality check might be in order here.

If you hunt enough, in different situations, at one point or another, someone is going to have a loaded rifle pointed in his direction.

Second, for me at least, as soon as I leave the ytruck my rifle has a round chambered and put on safe. It remains that way until we get back or shoot something.

Anytime we are walking in teh bush, both myself and my PH have rifles with rounds chambered and on safe.

In all my years of using firearms, the only time I had any trouble with a safety was on a Weathertby Mk V made in Japan.

That rifle would fire if a round is chambered, and the safety is put on and then taken off.

It's probably a good bet we didn't have this over whelming distrust of safeties with soldiers in the US Army in WWII. I cannot envision a single way you could meet their requirements with an M1 and my FAL doesn't lend itself to this wonderful tecqunique either. But then I guess men are not what would really be considered dangerous game and if you can show me a Mauser wing type safety that is prone to ANY type of accidental discharge I'll eat the damn thing. I cannot imagine any firearm manufacturer in existance that would say they just put safeties on their weapons for looks and NEVER do any research. Just think how much money they could save by NOT installing them. I guess I just don't really understand guns, but I'm beginning to think I understand people even less.

Please!
Mauser FLAG safety,
Winchester WING safety
just to be clear as mud.

Saeed's Video event that started this thread:

Dean's rifle: Looked like a First Generation Ruger RSM to me. If so, it could have seen twenty or more years of hard service.

Ganyana/Don Heath or someone here has mentioned a tendency of that rifle to have weak ejection, noted in the Zim PH-Appy field testing.

IIRC that is easily fixed by replacement of some tiny worn or weakened part or spring of the Ruger RSM ejector mechanism.

Seemed to happen a lot in Zim where the rifles are used until the blued barrels and actions are polished silver by horny-handed sons of toil.

Dean needs a quick fix.

Back to the safety tangent:


As with Saeed's one bad Japanese Mark V Weatherby,
I had an AR-30 in .338 Lapua that would "accidental discharge" when the safety was taken off,
pushed forward to fire, on a cocked action with a chambered round, and no finger anywhere near the trigger.
Got a nasty cut thumb from that safety.
Gun long gone, traded as was for something better, back to the same dealer that sold it to me.

I am happy to mix it up depending on the "intensity" of the situation.

1. Full magazine and empty chamber, safety off, or on, whatever makes someone happy.
2. Chambered round, safety on, bolt down.
3. Chambered round, safety off, bolt handle lifted for the final turn down.

Viking Law: It Depends.

But, alas, there is one "absolute," even for Vikings:
Don't point that weapon at anything unless you want to kill it.
Accidents do happen.

I still can't see the harm of having a sling on your rifle. Slung carry can add to safety.
Yes, that one was "pointed at" Saeed.

RIPoste by Ron The Unforgiven

Saeed makes an exellent point. With any rifle that has a three position safety, and all of my bolt actions do, I'll carry it with the bolt up on the middle position if I have a round in the chamber until I'm ready to shoot or in a position that a shot is imminent. In any event, watch your muzzle, but I agree that there may be occasions that it's pointed in a less than desired direction no matter how careful you are.

quote:

Originally posted by Art S.:
A lot of this, I think, comes down to the ridiculous practice of carrying a rifle on your shoulder, often with the muzzle pointed forward in an effort to look like a "White Hunter". With it pointed forward, ithas to be muzzle down, or it is unbalanced. With it pointing back, you can't see where it is pointed. I was raised in the hills of KY, and we carried guns generally if we were anywhere past the road. I was taught strict gun safety from the time I was 6 and got my first .22. You carry your rifle at what I would call port arms. It is always muzzle up, not pointing at anyone around you no matter what their direction, and always under control. It is always ready to use instantly. If you need to use your hands for something, it is on a sling. Period. No danger and no delay.

Glad to hear anothey Ky gentleman was raised the same as I was!

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:
I have also never hunted with a PH that asked me to leave the chamber empty. Fairgame, how do you have your double rifle users carry the weapon? With both barrels empty?

I've always loaded the chamber and put the rifle on safe when leaving the vehicle and unloading the rifle once returning to the vehicle. I also don't trust the safety and maintain vigil over where the muzzles are pointing.

Todd,

In my experience Doubles have very limited usage and are normally carried in hot pursuit of DG.

I cannot see any advantage to carry a loaded rifle in the accompaniment of a qualified PH when strolling through the bush.

My recommendation was not really pointed at DG but rather hunting as a whole. Obviously if one is actively hunting or tracking up DG then this is an exception and the same applies if one is hunting or walking in thick cover. However I do not generally carry a loaded weapon in the field, I ask my scout not to and advise clients the same. It is just my way and it is not mandatory but if they (not the scout) insist then so be it, but my statement was that it makes me uncomfortable, more so if I am in the lead, more so if the gun is in the hands of a novice.

Simon Burgess a PH here was shot a couple of years back when his learned client of many safaris tripped, stumbled and fell discharging his so called safe gun. They were hunting Impala.

Accidents do happen and I try and avoid them.

Ladies and Gentlemen:

I'll have to agree with Fairgame on this one.

I've had so many firearms pointed at me over the years by so called safe hunters and safe shooters, that I've lost count.

Now, I carry a loaded chamber shotgun and/or rifle, during all my hunting, and that was how I was taught at age 11. The credo was and is "the gun is always loaded, so never point it at another person, period."

Nevertheless, if the PH, guide and/or other hunters felt uncomfortable with that, I'd certainly carry my rifle without a round chambered.

On the other hand, how could you possibly go bird hunting with anything but a loaded chamber? Of course that's when I've had the vast bulk of guns pointed at me.

And oh, yeah, it really pisses me off.

Sincerely,

Chris Bemis

quote:

Originally posted by scruffy:
As a client I would really like the guide's rifle to work 100%...

I don't want to sound smart, but where would you like them to get it repaired ? Qualified gunsmiths aren't exactly thick on the ground over there. There is piss poor supply of affordable rifles too, let alone choice.

When gunsmiths are available you won't find too many affordable PH's with the spare change to pay them. Celebrity PH's may be another matter.

I must admit I was amazed when my last PH said 'round in the chamber, safety on and leave it that way'. So I did. When in Rome .... ( and I watched that muzzle +++ )

Like some here I usually only chamber a round and put the safety on prior to commencing a stalk.

There are some quite talented Smiths in RSA,Zim and Namibia but sometimes some people think their $$$ are required elsewhere and these items are not priority.

Never in history was a dangerous rifle/gun ever made. The moment that a human touches it is when it becomes dangerous.
I have to agree with Fairgame.
Twice in my PH career did a client have an AD behind me with "luckily" no injuries. People meke guns dangerous and I am more scared of the person behind me with a loaded gun than the animal in front of me.
I instruct all my clients "on plains game hunts" to have a round in the chamber and the bolt raised. On DG hunts the same until the first shot, after that on the follow-up the client must be on my 8-o-clock and close or if he is a left hand shooter on my 4-o-clock with safety engaged. I do not want to worry about a gun behind me if there is an angry animal in front of me.

I have seen a few times where safeties "accidentally" moved to the fire position because safe clients are in an unsafe situation and they play with it without realizing.

Code4 ... I still think that the rifle should be repaired asap. If the buffalo had started that charge a bit closer ...

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
In all my years of using firearms, the only time I had any trouble with a safety was on a Weathertby Mk V made in Japan.

That rifle would fire if a round is chambered, and the safety is put on and then taken off.

The above is not limited to the Japan Weatherby! Remington mod 700s are notorious for fireng when the safeties are pushed to the fire position after being carried for a while.

I use the safeties on my rifles, but I certainly do not trust them enough to depend on them fully. It seem most here are talking about bolt rifles, and in that case it is quiet easy to slide a round in the chamber in the final few steps before the shot on game be it dangerous, or an impala. With a round in the chamber a safety or carrying on a sling is not as safe as it seems. It is a fact that safties do malfunction on occasion, some more often than not, and even though a rifle's barrel is pointed "UP" when carried with a sling on the shoulder, where is it pointing when you trip and fall? If there is no round in the chamber the only damage is to the owner's nose where he hits the ground face down.

With a double rifle we have a problem because the rifle rifle is used most often for special purpose and when that special game is spotted, or set on fresh spoor, my rifle is usualy loaded and safety "ON" and the rifle carried at port arms with the muzzles pointed UP till the game is in sight for the shot. This is where the K-rifle has a safety advantage over other double rifles with the chambers loaded but the tumblers un-cocked. but as with any firearm the best safety is the nut between a pair of ears being aware of where his rifle is pointing at all times, and any other safety being an addtional stop-gap, but only if it works properly, and some dont! All things work as they are supposed to TILL THEY DON'T, and then it is the shooter who must be the final safety! Just as safeties are not 100% safe, nither is a human, but that is all we have in this case!

..........................................

A few years back I was guiding a celebrity in big game country in the Lower Zambezi. He came with 4 British SAS and every morning the man in charge would ask to check that my gun was not loaded before we set off the day.

Maybe it is just a British thing?

I understand the concern. I hunt with my two sons and believe me, nothing is more tragic than a family gun accident so we are extremely careful and mindful of what we do, where are muzzles are pointed, whether we have a round in the chamber, our safeties are always on and fingers aren't on the trigger until we are ready to fire. This has been drummed into them since they were 10 years old.

If you can close on a dangerous wounded animal without being in single file that is optimal. When following my guide into the "puckerbrush" after my brown bear we had no choice. We went through the Rules of Engagement before following it up. One of us covered the other as we ducked through the brush. I offered to go first, understanding that guides see a lot of bad gun handling, but my guide Jason smiled and said cover me and in we went.

I guess as PH's and clients we get to choose who we hunt with, that is as it should be.