quote:

Originally posted by Fritz Rabe:
Never in history was a dangerous rifle/gun ever made.

"Norinco?"

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:
I have also never hunted with a PH that asked me to leave the chamber empty. Fairgame, how do you have your double rifle users carry the weapon? With both barrels empty?

I've always loaded the chamber and put the rifle on safe when leaving the vehicle and unloading the rifle once returning to the vehicle. I also don't trust the safety and maintain vigil over where the muzzles are pointing.

Todd,

In my experience Doubles have very limited usage and are normally carried in hot pursuit of DG.

I cannot see any advantage to carry a loaded rifle in the accompaniment of a qualified PH when strolling through the bush.

My recommendation was not really pointed at DG but rather hunting as a whole. Obviously if one is actively hunting or tracking up DG then this is an exception and the same applies if one is hunting or walking in thick cover. However I do not generally carry a loaded weapon in the field, I ask my scout not to and advise clients the same. It is just my way and it is not mandatory but if they (not the scout) insist then so be it, but my statement was that it makes me uncomfortable, more so if I am in the lead, more so if the gun is in the hands of a novice.

Simon Burgess a PH here was shot a couple of years back when his learned client of many safaris tripped, stumbled and fell discharging his so called safe gun. They were hunting Impala.

Accidents do happen and I try and avoid them.

Fairgame, the last thing I would want to do is question your experience and as a client, I realize there is one Captain on the hunt and the PH is it! The way you want it done on a hunt you are conducting is the way it will be but your statement about doubles being of limited usage is something I can't agree with.

For example, my current setup for Safari is a scoped Chapuis double in 9.3X74R for plains game and a 500NE double for the big stuff. The last few safaris I've done have been in Zim where with the exception of hunting Leopard, we spent most of the time tracking and "strolling through the bush" as you say, for DG. While stolling along for Buffalo or Elephant, we often made contact quickly and unexpectedly and then lost them just as quickly. In that situation, there really wasn't a defined period of "in hot pursuit of DG". So would you have me load and unload each time we got close or they ran off? Not trying to stir it up with you but rather trying to get an idea of how you would have conducted the hunts I've been on.

I realize you guys as PHs have a difficult issue to deal with concerning the number of different clients you hunt with. Those clients are of varying backgrounds, experience levels, safety concerns, excitability potential, etc. and it is a lot to try and sort out within the timeframe of a hunt.

Most of the plains game I've taken lately have been either as bait animals or as a target of opportunity while stalking DG. I know you said your comment wasn't pointed at DG hunts, but what are your thoughts on this type of hunting? I can think of a few PG animals that I shot while being undetected, but the vast majority have been alerted to our presence and offered a very limited timeframe between sighting them, getting into position, the sticks going up, and the shot being taken.

Todd,

You as an accomplished double rifle user should be able to load your double in a split second if you hand carry. The hunting you describe would make for good practice.

I did state that in active pursuit of DG then cocked and locked is acceptable in my book and ultimately it is the PH who will advise you as to what he prefers.

A good example is that when I conducted the AR hunt in Luangwa early last year there was three or four of us onto Buffalo daily in long thick grass. Visibility was a couple of metres at the most and often the Buffalo erupting at our feet. After these incidents we all unloaded, with the exception of the Krieghoff (which was simply uncocked) and when we were all 'safe' we then proceeded on after them. We did this exercise there or four times a morning. To have four guns loaded in jittery conditions would be courting disaster.

I for one am constantly juggling my rifle between binos and the sticks, often the barrel of the gun resting against my belly when glassing.

Thought you might like this photo of PH Richard Bell Cross and you will feel very comfortable walking in front of this chap.

quote:

Originally posted by scruffy:
Code4 ... I still think that the rifle should be repaired asap. If the buffalo had started that charge a bit closer ...

No argument at all. As Aushunter as stated, sometimes prioritys are different to those we may attribute to the industry.

We must do it differently in Zim. I do not know a single Zim PH that would allow his client to set off either tracking or random walks in a Dangerous game area without a loaded rifle.

I am not embarassed to admit that on a couple of occasions when we least expected it on random walks we were charged by ele cows and if it was not for the help of my clients I would have been squashed for sure. Not much use sitting with an unloaded rifle in situations like that!

When getting off the truck load you rifle put your safety on and watch you muzzle!

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:

Thought you might like this photo of PH Richard Bell Cross and you will feel very comfortable walking in front of this chap.

I realize that Richard is a highly experience PH but it must be noted that it takes 1/5th of F&^k all to make that rifle inoperable whilst left open like that.

quote:

Originally posted by Buzz Charlton:
We must do it differently in Zim. I do not know a single Zim PH that would allow his client to set off either tracking or random walks in a Dangerous game area without a loaded rifle.

I am not embarassed to admit that on a couple of occasions when we least expected it on random walks we were charged by ele cows and if it was not for the help of my clients I would have been squashed for sure. Not much use sitting with an unloaded rifle in situations like that!

When getting off the truck load you rifle put your safety on and watch you muzzle!

OK Buzz but we do not have to deal with all those toothless old hags that you do on a daily basis.

quote:

Originally posted by ozhunter:

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:

Thought you might like this photo of PH Richard Bell Cross and you will feel very comfortable walking in front of this chap.

I realize that Richard is a highly experience PH but it must be noted that it takes 1/5th of F&^k all to make that rifle inoperable whilst left open like that.

Richard will only pull out his double on a follow up. Otherwise it is left in the car. He relies on his .458WM which again is never loaded whilst carrying.

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by ozhunter:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by fairgame:

Thought you might like this photo of PH Richard Bell Cross and you will feel very comfortable walking in front of this chap.

[


Richard will only pull out his double on a follow up. Otherwise it is left in the car. He relies on his .458WM which again is never loaded whilst carrying.

A truly awesome piece of kit for follow up.

quote:

Originally posted by ozhunter:

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:

Thought you might like this photo of PH Richard Bell Cross and you will feel very comfortable walking in front of this chap.

I realize that Richard is a highly experience PH but it must be noted that it takes 1/5th of F&^k all to make that rifle inoperable whilst left open like that.

Absolutely! That rifle will someday get him or someone else hurt or killed when he tries to close that thing on a chunk of bush when there is no time for gun cleaning! It is bad enough that the rifle is totally unloaded, but to leave it open to the bush gremins is insane! I'm sure this PH has some experience with hunting, but he is an amateur where double rifles handling is concerned.

....................................................................................

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:
Todd,
I for one am constantly juggling my rifle between binos and the sticks, often the barrel of the gun resting against my belly when glassing.

Fairgame , on the binos and rifle carry the two can be combined for better glassing!
You simply put the rifle over your shoulder in the PH carry and pick the binos up with the other hand, then slide your hand and rifle back till the weight of the rifle balances with the rifle hand on the binos. This balancing takes the weight off the binos for a steadier, and weightless bino! This a good use of the PH carry if only used for that purpose, and removes the rifle from you belly!

...................................................................................................................................

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:

quote:

Originally posted by ozhunter:

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:

Thought you might like this photo of PH Richard Bell Cross and you will feel very comfortable walking in front of this chap.

I realize that Richard is a highly experience PH but it must be noted that it takes 1/5th of F&^k all to make that rifle inoperable whilst left open like that.

Absolutely! That rifle will someday get him or someone else hurt or killed when he tries to close that thing on a chunk of bush when there is no time for gun cleaning! It is bad enough that the rifle is totally unloaded, but to leave it open to the bush gremins is insane! I'm sure this PH has some experience with hunting, but he is an amateur where double rifles handling is concerned.

....................................................................................

Well spoken Mac - when a double is taken for a walk it needs to be ready for action.
A double rifle was designed for African DG hunting and is not to be compared with 12 gauge shotguns on a pheasant shoot!

Point taken.

quote:

Originally posted by Art S.:
A lot of this, I think, comes down to the ridiculous practice of carrying a rifle on your shoulder, often with the muzzle pointed forward in an effort to look like a "White Hunter". With it pointed forward, ithas to be muzzle down, or it is unbalanced. With it pointing back, you can't see where it is pointed. I was raised in the hills of KY, and we carried guns generally if we were anywhere past the road. I was taught strict gun safety from the time I was 6 and got my first .22. You carry your rifle at what I would call port arms. It is always muzzle up, not pointing at anyone around you no matter what their direction, and always under control. It is always ready to use instantly. If you need to use your hands for something, it is on a sling. Period. No danger and no delay.

ART S, How ever you want to carry your rifle is your business, but you are mistaken on the PH carry being pointed at the person in front of you. In all my 75 years of life I've never heard of anyone being shot because of the PH carry, and it has been practiced as long as people have been hunting in Africa with firearms! That however doesn't mean it hasn't happened simply because I've never heard about it.

The PH carry, in practice is not naturally pointed straight forward, but at a 30-35 degree angle to the right if on the right shoulder, or vice-versa for the left shoulder.

When turning your body, or changing shoulders the muzzle, or muzzles are raised skyward and changed behind the head to the other shoulder.
Here again, is the need for the gun handler being aware of where his rifle is pointed at all times while carrying it!

With the PH carry the nrifle is ready for quick action when it is needed, and is as safe as any other carry as long as good gun handlers are doing it. That applies to any way a rifle is carried.

The PH carry is not used to LOOK any particular way! It is used that way because it is the best way to carry a rifle without a sling on long treks especially when following elephant or buffalo. Unless in very open country, a sling is real henderance especially on a double rifle.

I find that most Americans think as you do about the so-called PH carry, and that is because most have never used it, or really looked at others useing it. It is just that most weren't tought to carry that way by folks that also had no experience with it either. I find that the least safe gun handlers are American bird hunters while walking up birds like quail or pheasant carring port arms and when birds flush they tend to be only aware of the flying bird, and track accross another hunter quite often.

In the final analysis it matters not the method of carry as long as you know where your rifle is pointed at all times! The proper use of the PH carry is no more dangerous than any other way of carrying a rifle or shotgun!

.................................................................

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:

quote:

Originally posted by Art S.:
A lot of this, I think, comes down to the ridiculous practice of carrying a rifle on your shoulder, often with the muzzle pointed forward in an effort to look like a "White Hunter". With it pointed forward, ithas to be muzzle down, or it is unbalanced. With it pointing back, you can't see where it is pointed. I was raised in the hills of KY, and we carried guns generally if we were anywhere past the road. I was taught strict gun safety from the time I was 6 and got my first .22. You carry your rifle at what I would call port arms. It is always muzzle up, not pointing at anyone around you no matter what their direction, and always under control. It is always ready to use instantly. If you need to use your hands for something, it is on a sling. Period. No danger and no delay.

ART S, How ever you want to carry your rifle is your business, but you are mistaken on the PH carry being pointed at the person in front of you. In all my 75 years of life I've never heard of anyone being shot because of the PH carry, and it has been practiced as long as people have been hunting in Africa with firearms! That however doesn't mean it hasn't happened simply because I've never heard about it.

The PH carry, in practice is not naturally pointed straight forward, but at a 30-35 degree angle to the right if on the right shoulder, or vice-versa for the left shoulder.

When turning your body, or changing shoulders the muzzle, or muzzles are raised skyward and changed behind the head to the other shoulder.
Here again, is the need for the gun handler being aware of where his rifle is pointed at all times while carrying it!

With the PH carry the nrifle is ready for quick action when it is needed, and is as safe as any other carry as long as good gun handlers are doing it. That applies to any way a rifle is carried.

The PH carry is not used to LOOK any particular way! It is used that way because it is the best way to carry a rifle without a sling on long treks especially when following elephant or buffalo. Unless in very open country, a sling is real henderance especially on a double rifle.

I find that most Americans think as you do about the so-called PH carry, and that is because most have never used it, or really looked at others useing it. It is just that most weren't tought to carry that way by folks that also had no experience with it either. I find that the least safe gun handlers are American bird hunters while walking up birds like quail or pheasant carring port arms and when birds flush they tend to be only aware of the flying bird, and track accross another hunter quite often.

In the final analysis it matters not the method of carry as long as you know where your rifle is pointed at all times! The proper use of the PH carry is no more dangerous than any other way of carrying a rifle or shotgun!

.................................................................

Mac:

Buzz: October really isn't that far away!!

My PH has told me on more than one occasion to load my rifle, leave it loaded and unload it when I'm ready to leave for home. Other than pulling the cartridge out of the chamber for cruiser rides, that the way it stays, loaded.

Fair Game,

I hunted with Simon Burgess in 2008, and he showed me his scar from the shot ands he still uses his hunting vest with the bullet hole.

White North

Some years ago, I was hunting in Zambia and my young PH was carrying a old beat up Parker-Hale .458 Win that he had never shot! It was handed to him with a few shells. Man, was I ever under the gun to defend myself from a charge. He carried it unloaded, didn't trust the safety.

As I indicated, I forwarded this to Dean for his input. I was interested, since I believed he must have been using his .416 Rigby, for which I just sent him a couple of new front sights. Anyway, he responded with a very interesting explanation, which I thought all might enjoy.

Dean's Response:


My own opinion on the carry issue is that a ph and client must decide upon a system of carrying on day one which is safe and acceptable to both of them. No point feeling uncomfortable all safari.

Anyhow regarding the re-load. Here's what happened:

We did the Trijicon safari just before Saeed. This is always a big safari, lots of clients, phs, camera men etc etc (10 of us plus gear).We had a huge weight issue with the air charter so to try save weight I put my 416 in with my buddy Wayne's gun box, together with my ammo.

(Out of interest my ammo is loaded by John La Sala from Safari Arms out of NYC . He's been doing it for me for around 18 years now and I have never had a single problem ever , be it a misfire, jam whatever . Not one . I highly recommend him)

We did the hunt, and flew out again. Wayne was then headed back to Arusha, myself headed to join up with Saeed.. In the chaos in Dar es Salaam airport airport, I retrieved my rifle from Waynes box but managed to leave my ammo somewhere. Still havent found it! My fault. At the hotel I discovered my ammo missing, and with almost no time to try replace it. Dar too is no place to buy ammo, no gun shops. So I made a few calls to buddies and managed to locate some at the old Swanepoel & Scandrol office. This turned out to be 7 rounds of very dubious stuff, one or 2 of which I found out wouldn't even fire.

The rest you know. When the buff came it started far enough out that I knew I had time to shoot twice. When this is the case I normally put a chest shot in first so that I know he will die at some point. Then I save my next shot for an up close brain shot. You have to wait for him at this point. You don't want to try a head shot far out.

Well, after my first shot, this case wouldn't extract!! And yes it was lucky that I did have time to extract manually! I got it out eventually (felt like ages with a buff inbound) and had time to make my brain shot! So all was well .

So it wasnt anything to do with a gun malfunction . That was my 12th buff charge with that particular rifle, to go with a lion, 2 hippo, 2 elephant, a leopard etc charges with that rifle. I have absolute confidence in it (carried it 18 years now).

Where I went wrong was losing my ammo and having (no choice) to use other ammo which ended up not extracting properly. I dont know if they were hot and therefore stuck a bit or what. Anyhow, managed to get it done and provide a nice discussion at the same time.

At the end of the day it all boils down to one thing. Know your rifle, know your ammo. That's why I have always used Johns ammo, no reason to change.

Lesson for the day for me?? DON'T FORGET your ammo!

Thanks for posting the response from Dean. I watched that part of the DVD several times just last night.

After seeing Dean's personality and confidence in the field, if I am ever able, he would be a top choice to pick as a PH; a sense of humor, knowledge of game and terrain, respect for the country and calm under pressure.

Cheers to Dean.

"Well, after my first shot, this case wouldn't extract!! And yes it was lucky that I did have time to extract manually!
I got it out eventually (felt like ages with a buff inbound) and had time to make my brain shot! So all was well."

************************************************************************************************

Bit of a problem with the explanation by Dean:
The spent cartridges extracted fine! Then just lay there loose within the ejection port, without ejecting, twice in a row, two shots.

That is an ejection problem.
Not an extraction problem.

If he had to extract the brass manually, he would have to diassemble the rifle and use some tools besides his fingers ...

If some problem with the ammo could be figured out that would cause isolated ejection failure after extraction, maybe it still points to weak ejection by the rifle.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
"Well, after my first shot, this case wouldn't extract!! And yes it was lucky that I did have time to extract manually!
I got it out eventually (felt like ages with a buff inbound) and had time to make my brain shot! So all was well."

************************************************************************************************

Bit of a problem with the explanation by Dean:
The spent cartridges extracted fine! Then just lay there loose within the ejection port, without ejecting, twice in a row, two shots.

That is an ejection problem.
Not an extraction problem.

If he had to extract the brass manually, he would have to diassemble the rifle and use some tools besides his fingers ...

If some problem with the ammo could be figured out that would cause isolated ejection failure after extraction, maybe it still points to weak ejection by the rifle.

Well, Doubles ARE of limited use! Especially when empty! And full of crap from being carried open and empty!

quote:

We must do it differently in Zim. I do not know a single Zim PH that would allow his client to set off either tracking or random walks in a Dangerous game area without a loaded rifle.

I agree with you Buzz! A PH, walking in front of you with an unloaded rifle- insane!!
I surely would not want to walk around, through tall grass as a client, with an unloaded rifle.

When faced with a split second decision, that may get someone killed, I wouldn't want empty chamber nor, a "half cocked" weapon.

Surely, this method would have more room for failure!!!

quote:

I don't think I have ever read so many who distrust safties.

Remington 700

This thread certainly has grown legs. I re-read most of it and I think there are a couple of points worth sifting out.

1) Never point the muzzle anywhere you don't want to shoot. Yet PH's posting and Saeed with all his experience all admit they have had guns pointed at them.

2) An unloaded chamber can not fire a round. Sound like a no brainer but it works both ways. You can't "accidentally" fire a round and you will be a bit less prepared to fire in a surprise situation.

3) Fairgame is taking some flack for his statements. Yet he already said that in obviously potentially dangerous situations such as poor visbility (tall grass) and animal follow-up there is a need for readiness and a loaded chamber. The idea of a raised bolt is included in that discussion I suppose.

I would like to point out that when I hunted Buffalo with Johnny du Plooy the ONLY time his 470 NE was loaded was when we went into the grass after buffalo. All the other times that double was in the hands of the tracker Lamec and it was unloaded with the cartridge belt on Johnny's waist. I know this to be a fact because Lamec was going to club the Bushbuck that charged my wife with the empty double if it had not expired at her feet.

My .375 had a round in the chamber with the safety on when I left the truck and was again unloaded on arrival back at the truck.

Andrew and I will be hunting together in June and we will discuss our firearm handling in person.

I want to repeat that all hunters are not stamped out of a mold. Not all were raised in the bush, on farms, or ranches and taught firearm safety and handling from day one. I already outlined a story from a Brown Bear guide earlier in this post. If you were a guide/PH would you want that hunter behind you with a loaded chamber? The guy didn't know where his safety was and thought the rifle was sighted in at the factory.

This is not one size fits all.

quote:

Originally posted by Frostbit:

I would like to point out that when I hunted Buffalo with Johnny du Plooy the ONLY time his 470 NE was loaded was when we went into the grass after buffalo. All the other times that double was in the hands of the tracker Lamec and it was unloaded with the cartridge belt on Johnny's waist.

My .375 had a round in the chamber with the safety on when I left the truck and was again unloaded on arrival back at the truck.

.

The above is the normal way it is most often done in my experience. Till needed the PH rarely carries his own rifle, and almost never hands a loaded gun to a tracker. The client’s rifle if a bolt rifle will usually have the magazine loaded with the chamber empty, till needed for the final stalk.

Now what we are discussing, in most cases here is when the CLIENT is using a double rifle, and carrying his own rifle. Mine has always been loaded, and on safe with a soft in the right barrel, and a solid in the left, with two solids in a carrier on the back of my trigger hand,or wrist for a quick reload of shots three and four.

The only time a tracker carries a rifle of mine is when I have two rifles , like a scoped bolt rifle and a big bore double. I carry the double, and a tracker carries the scoped rifle with the chamber empty, magazine loaded.

As you say there are shooters, and then there are other shooters, and they are not all the same. The PH is in the dark about the client till he hunts with him, and will understandably be wary of him till he sees how he handles his rifle. I’ve never been asked to carry my rifle unloaded while out of the hunting car and in the bush, and I’m not sure we would get along if I were asked. These are things that need to be discussed with the PH (not the booking agent)you will be hunting with before any booking is undertaken. On this vein, I was once requested by a PH to re-zero my bolt action 375 H&H to be dead on at 100 yards and I refused. The reason was, I had hunted with that rifle for some years, and I knew
where that rifle printed it’s 300 gr bullets from muzzle to 300 yds, being zeroed 2.5 inches high at 100 yards. If I had done as he asked I wouldn’t have taken six animals from Hippo and Buffalo down to wart hog,with one shot kills on all but one which required two shots. And the shots ranged from 60 feet to 275 yards.

It is true that I was almost born with a rifle in my hands, and have rarely spent more than a month not shooting some form of firarm in all my life since the age of six years, and I'm 75 years old.

..........................................................................................

I, personally, have been shot twice. Obviously nothing fatal or debilitating. The first time, while was a cop. The second time, the person I was hunting with was at fault. I am extremely aware of where the muzzle is pointed. While some don't like the cocking mechanism on the Blaser S2, I am completely at ease with it. The gun is not SUPPOSED to fire when the cocking lever is not pushed forward. It is supposed to serve as a disconnector. Now I have a Searcy as well and God willing, I will bloody this rifle. I again, will have to put enough rounds through this rifle to become as familiar with it as I am the Blaser. Also, it does not go to safety when you open the action. I personally have a lot of work to do before I will take another rifle on a DG hunt because the Blaser will be on vacation and the Searcy will be out for blood. Everybody that has had a comment of differing opinions are correct for their own reasons. I am uncomfortable with most peoples muzzle control. I used to hunt with a number of friends, here in Colorado. But after a number of AD's, guns pointed in my direction and mixed up crazy, let's have a beer friends, I now have relinquished my hunting partners to just 2. The PH carry is effective. The rifle is carried over the shoulder, pointed in a different direction than directly in front of you. As long as you are conscious of where your rifle is pointed, no harm, no foul. I also have hunted with and been around "sportsmen" that just purchased a rifle and took it hunting without so much as a single session at the range to make sure everything was OK.
As for Remington safeties. Yes, they had a run of trigger groups/safety's that were defective. I purchased one that was in .458 Win Mag that would fire if the rifle was taken off of safe without the trigger being touched. I replaced the trigger with an aftermarket trigger group and that rifle is now SAFE. I like the Remingtons. They are accurate, and I think, dependable. I would never place another individual in jeopardy by not paying attention to where my rifle is pointed. I expect the same from those I hunt with.

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:

quote:

Originally posted by Frostbit:

I would like to point out that when I hunted Buffalo with Johnny du Plooy the ONLY time his 470 NE was loaded was when we went into the grass after buffalo. All the other times that double was in the hands of the tracker Lamec and it was unloaded with the cartridge belt on Johnny's waist.

My .375 had a round in the chamber with the safety on when I left the truck and was again unloaded on arrival back at the truck.

.

The above is the normal way it is most often done in my experience. Till needed the PH rarely carries his own rifle, and almost never hands a loaded gun to a tracker. The client’s rifle if a bolt rifle will usually have the magazine loaded with the chamber empty, till needed for the final stalk.

Now what we are discussing, in most cases here is when the CLIENT is using a double rifle, and carrying his own rifle. Mine has always been loaded, and on safe with a soft in the right barrel, and a solid in the left, with two solids in a carrier on the back of my trigger hand,or wrist for a quick reload of shots three and four.

The only time a tracker carries a rifle of mine is when I have two rifles , like a scoped bolt rifle and a big bore double. I carry the double, and a tracker carries the scoped rifle with the chamber empty, magazine loaded.

As you say there are shooters, and then there are other shooters, and they are not all the same. The PH is in the dark about the client till he hunts with him, and will understandably be wary of him till he sees how he handles his rifle. I’ve never been asked to carry my rifle unloaded while out of the hunting car and in the bush, and I’m not sure we would get along if I were asked. These are things that need to be discussed with the PH (not the booking agent)you will be hunting with before any booking is undertaken. On this vein, I was once requested by a PH to re-zero my bolt action 375 H&H to be dead on at 100 yards and I refused. The reason was, I had hunted with that rifle for some years, and I knew
where that rifle printed it’s 300 gr bullets from muzzle to 300 yds, being zeroed 2.5 inches high at 100 yards. If I had done as he asked I wouldn’t have taken six animals from Hippo and Buffalo down to wart hog,with one shot kills on all but one which required two shots. And the shots ranged from 60 feet to 275 yards.

It is true that I was almost born with a rifle in my hands, and have rarely spent more than a month not shooting some form of firarm in all my life since the age of six years, and I'm 75 years old.

..........................................................................................

Amen. Great post.

FWIW my policies on client's firearms when in their racks are:

- keep them loaded but not chambered;
- immediately chamber a round when the rifle is handed down to you and engage the safety.

Disengaging the safety is a lot quieter than jacking a round in the chamber !

Before taking a firearm into the field ensure the moving parts are fully functional - especially the safety. People will go to great lengths at adjusting trigger pull, eliminating creep, etc. but hardly anyone really pays much attention to the main safety feature!

- whether walking, tracking or stalking, I prefer to have the client carrying his rifle whichever way he prefers but to have the muzzle angling away depending on the carrying position;
- gun bearers are reserved for those clients unaccustomed to carrying a rifle for long periods in abnormal conditions - ours are trained in load/unload/carry procedures;
- my double gets loaded when I step out of the vehicle and unloaded when I get back in;
- Nobody carries my rifle, loaded or not;
- I clean and service my own firearms on a daily basis - any damage or fault that may have occurred during the day is very likely to be detected.

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
"Well, after my first shot, this case wouldn't extract!! And yes it was lucky that I did have time to extract manually!
I got it out eventually (felt like ages with a buff inbound) and had time to make my brain shot! So all was well."


************************************************************************************************

Bit of a problem with the explanation by Dean:
The spent cartridges extracted fine! Then just lay there loose within the ejection port, without ejecting, twice in a row, two shots.

That is an ejection problem.
Not an extraction problem.

If he had to extract the brass manually, he would have to diassemble the rifle and use some tools besides his fingers ...

If some problem with the ammo could be figured out that would cause isolated ejection failure after extraction, maybe it still points to weak ejection by the rifle.

Well, Doubles ARE of limited use! Especially when empty! And full of crap from being carried open and empty!

Todd,

Well pointed out to a chap is obviously not very familiar with doubles. Indeed for me they are a new acquisition and there is a lot to learn from experts like yourself.

In 11 safaris for buffalo and elephant, I have yet to have a PH tell me not load my rifle when we left the vehicle or one have to tell me to unload when we got back to the vehicle. I have hunted with two Phs that were ex-National Parks Rangers. Both had one of the two trackers carry their rifles most of the time. The non-ex-parks Phs that I hunted with all carried their own rifles all the time when out in the bush. Ron Thompson gives an explanation for this apparent Parks attitude in his book Mahoboh. His point wa that it was the trackers job to do the heavy lifting during the track so that he was well rested to do his part of the job when the elephants were contacted. I do supose that you can find exceptions to both of these techniques if you look hard enough.

465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
"Well, after my first shot, this case wouldn't extract!! And yes it was lucky that I did have time to extract manually!
I got it out eventually (felt like ages with a buff inbound) and had time to make my brain shot! So all was well."


************************************************************************************************

Bit of a problem with the explanation by Dean:
The spent cartridges extracted fine! Then just lay there loose within the ejection port, without ejecting, twice in a row, two shots.

That is an ejection problem.
Not an extraction problem.

If he had to extract the brass manually, he would have to diassemble the rifle and use some tools besides his fingers ...

If some problem with the ammo could be figured out that would cause isolated ejection failure after extraction, maybe it still points to weak ejection by the rifle.

Well, Doubles ARE of limited use! Especially when empty! And full of crap from being carried open and empty!

Todd,

Well pointed out to a chap is obviously not very familiar with doubles. Indeed for me they are a new acquisition and there is a lot to learn from experts like yourself.

Fairgame, I was just having a little fun, at your expense I confess. Actually, when we hunt together, I'm sure I will be the one doing all the learning.

Am I the only one that thinks it's crazy to trust the "safety" of a bolt partially lifted over the proper use of a properly functioning built in safety?

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
"Well, after my first shot, this case wouldn't extract!! And yes it was lucky that I did have time to extract manually!
I got it out eventually (felt like ages with a buff inbound) and had time to make my brain shot! So all was well."


************************************************************************************************

Bit of a problem with the explanation by Dean:
The spent cartridges extracted fine! Then just lay there loose within the ejection port, without ejecting, twice in a row, two shots.

That is an ejection problem.
Not an extraction problem.

If he had to extract the brass manually, he would have to diassemble the rifle and use some tools besides his fingers ...

If some problem with the ammo could be figured out that would cause isolated ejection failure after extraction, maybe it still points to weak ejection by the rifle.

Well, Doubles ARE of limited use! Especially when empty! And full of crap from being carried open and empty!

Todd,

Well pointed out to a chap is obviously not very familiar with doubles. Indeed for me they are a new acquisition and there is a lot to learn from experts like yourself.

Fairgame, I was just having a little fun, at your expense I confess. Actually, when we hunt together, I'm sure I will be the one doing all the learning.

Cheers and when mine comes in next month I will be asking more silly questions.

quote:

Originally posted by Howard:
Am I the only one that thinks it's crazy to trust the "safety" of a bolt partially lifted over the proper use of a properly functioning built in safety?

In a situation that requires the chamber to be loaded - it is much the same in my opinion. Either way it requires two 'actions' (deliberate or accidental) to be performed for the rifle to be discharged. The only other advantage with bolt-up is that it can be quieter than some safety catches at close-quarters and/or in cold windless conditions. Some rifles are of course more suitable for using bolt-up than others.

It is just a fact that hunters in some Commonwealth countries are used to trusting bolt-up condition rather than safety .... no big deal!

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
"Well, after my first shot, this case wouldn't extract!! And yes it was lucky that I did have time to extract manually!
I got it out eventually (felt like ages with a buff inbound) and had time to make my brain shot! So all was well."


************************************************************************************************

Bit of a problem with the explanation by Dean:
The spent cartridges extracted fine! Then just lay there loose within the ejection port, without ejecting, twice in a row, two shots.

That is an ejection problem.
Not an extraction problem.

If he had to extract the brass manually, he would have to diassemble the rifle and use some tools besides his fingers ...

If some problem with the ammo could be figured out that would cause isolated ejection failure after extraction, maybe it still points to weak ejection by the rifle.

Well, Doubles ARE of limited use! Especially when empty! And full of crap from being carried open and empty!

Todd,

Well pointed out to a chap is obviously not very familiar with doubles. Indeed for me they are a new acquisition and there is a lot to learn from experts like yourself.

Fairgame, I was just having a little fun, at your expense I confess. Actually, when we hunt together, I'm sure I will be the one doing all the learning.

Cheers and when mine comes in next month I will be asking more silly questions.

I'm sure Brett Barringer will be happy to answer all your questions. Perhaps it will distract him from reminding me daily how much I "need" a double.

quote:

Originally posted by Frostbit:
.....Perhaps it will distract him from reminding me daily how much I "need" a double.

Hey Jim..........you need a double!!!!!

Brett

quote:

Originally posted by Brett Adam Barringer:

quote:

Originally posted by Frostbit:
.....Perhaps it will distract him from reminding me daily how much I "need" a double.

Hey Jim..........you need a double!!!!!

Brett

Hey Brett.......I'm taking two rifles!!!!!

That's almost like a double.

Iloved Dean's description of what happened on the buffalo charge. It takes a cool head to handle that situation in such a deliberate fashion.

As usual this thread has morfed into something else other than it was initially but I think it is interesting to hear people's experience about rifle carry, safety and when it is appropriate to have a loaded rifle or not. My experience with 14 different PH's in several countries is that the manner in which the PH's handled their own rifle issues in the field varied greatly but none had a problem with me being locked and loaded with safety on anytime when we were away from the Cruiser. Having said that if in the future a PH requested me to do something else I'll be happy to.

Mark

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:
In my experience Doubles have very limited usage and are normally carried in hot pursuit of DG.

I cannot see any advantage to carry a loaded rifle in the accompaniment of a qualified PH when strolling through the bush.

No offence meant, but this sounds like a PH I once had.

This PH arrogantly said, "a client does not need a knife, as he won't need it. Also does not even need binoculars as I will tell him what to shoot."

Guess what?

I will not re-book with that arrogant guy.

Some PHs forget they are there often because the law requires them to be hired. The reason the law also exists, to ensure local employment etc.

Many of us want to hunt. That means scanning with binoculars for game ourselves. Assessing trophies. Sure the PH's help is useful here being unfamiliar animals.

Many do USE their knives mucking in.

As for doubles not being needed because the PH is carrying a rifle, well if the PH shoots his rifle instead of me, its HIS hunt not mine ...

If animal follow up is needed I want to be one of the persons following up, not sitting in a car twiddling my thumbs.

I have had mates who did it the DIY safari way including buffalo and its a pity that option isn't available more. Sure more people might get squashed, but its the industry that worries more about that than the clients.



I think the comments to do with doubles are often more to do with the unaffordability of them than anything else.