quote:

Originally posted by almostacowboy:

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:
Almost,

I will not have friends who commit fraud because they do not hold the same values as me. Nor do I stick my head down in the sand like an ostrich as some here do.

I think you're better off sticking to elephants, Grains. You know as much about ostriches as you do about friendship, human nature, and humility.

Dave

....and knives.

quote:

Originally posted by patrkyhntr:

quote:

Originally posted by almostacowboy:

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:
Almost,

I will not have friends who commit fraud because they do not hold the same values as me. Nor do I stick my head down in the sand like an ostrich as some here do.

I think you're better off sticking to elephants, Grains. You know as much about ostriches as you do about friendship, human nature, and humility.

Dave

My question is, since grains is such a crusader for honesty, justice and the American way, did he turn his "friends" in for commiting fraud? After all, wouldn't that be what such a crusader would do? Maybe grains is a democrat?

Your imagination is a bit fanciful.

If you know you friends, you know their character, and if you choose friends of good character the question of deserting them or turning them in will never arise because they will never even consider committing fraud. If you do face that dilemma then I would suggest that you choose your friends more carefully.

These little diversions are fine, but now back to the topic.

____________________________


Is anyone going to stop in to see Ray and Pierre at Dallas to query them on the subject of Sheepunter's hunt?

I'll be there Dan! It will be good to see Ray and Pierre again!

Yes 500grains,

I am looking forward to seeing my good friends Ray and Pierre but I will not be doing any reporting on the Sheephunter saga.

It would be interesting to learn "the rest of the story" if Pierre chose to share it however knowing him - I really doubt that he will badmouth a client regardless of whether it is deserved and regardless of how much he personally has been hurt.

almostacowboy

You talk big on Saeed's friendship.

Should be easy for Saeed to start a thread and endorse Atkinson/PVT. That alone would lance the boil.

Mike

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:


If you know you friends, you know their character, and if you choose friends of good character the question of deserting them or turning them in will never arise because they will never even consider committing fraud. If you do face that dilemma then I would suggest that you choose your friends more carefully.

These little diversions are fine, but now back to the topic.

____________________________


Is anyone going to stop in to see Ray and Pierre at Dallas to query them on the subject of Sheepunter's hunt?

Re your comments on friends: That's quite a perfect little world you've set yourself up in, Grains - emphasize "little". I love words like "never" and "always".

Re PVT etc: You just don't get it. It's nobody's business but theirs. But, then, I'm sure your friends don't mind you meddling in their affairs.

Dave

500grains ----- I really would like to go to Dallas and visit with my good friends, Ray and Pierre' but with arrangements already for Reno I cannot. They provided me with a fantastic hunt in the Selous. Pierre" and Anneli going out of their way to provide that extra personal service, for a client who was a rookie on a minor hunt. It has taken you 41 pages on the Mega Forum to answer the question about Sheephunters hunt, and the jury is still out. I have never heard another word of negative reporting on another Pierre' van Tonder hunt. There is the evidence for all to see, and Pierre' has not been critical of Sheephunter anywhere that I have seen. Go figure. Good shooting.

almostacowboy

Where you are wrong is that Ray Atkinson acts as an agen for PvT and Ray chose to use HA and then when it died use AR as a means of promoting his business (and by default PHs who he acts for as an agent) and as such it does not fit "It's nobody's business but theirs"

Mike

Saeed has been friends with/of Ray and PVT for years. I find it ungentlemanly to ask someone to turn on his friends.

quote:

Saeed has been friends with/of Ray and PVT for years. I find it ungentlemanly to ask someone to turn on his friends.

How can asking Saeed to endorse them be asking him to turn on them.

Also, in my opinion Saeed should make up his mind whether the Political forum or the Mr Nice Guy African forum is which personality he wishes to use.

Mike

quote:

Originally posted by Mike378:
almostacowboy

You talk big on Saeed's friendship.

Should be easy for Saeed to start a thread and endorse Atkinson/PVT. That alone would lance the boil.

Mike

Dear, dear, Mike. I'm starting to feel bad about saying you were acting like an asshole since your diminished mental capacity is becoming obvious.
Let me make this as simple as I can so you might be able to understand. First, I never said a word about "Saeed's friendship". I did speak about the meaning of "friendship" in general. Second, pay close attention. This may be a complex concept for you to grasp, but no one on AR - or anywhere else, really - has to answer to your adolescent challenges and baiting. Really and truly they don't. Neither do they have to answer to Grains's self-rightious, pious, pompous, self-agrandizing bullshit (I think some of that may be redundant ).

Oh, crap! I thought I said "that's all I've got to say about this". I guess that'll leave me out of Grains's perfect little world of perfect friends.

OBTW, I would readily accept Saeed's brand of friendship anyday.
Dave

Mike,

This whole thread and your making this thing personal with Saeed is way out of line, IMHO.

Ask for answers from the wrongdoers, not their friends. Push them to explain themselves, but leave their friends out of it.

I know you can make up your own mind on this issue, just as I and many others have done. No one is being censored. It's all out there for you and everyone else to read and figure out.

Who cares about the rest? It's petty and unnecessary.

And almostacowboy, you're just as bad. The level of discourse on this thing has plummeted and it's really a damned shame.

quote:

Originally posted by Mike378:
almostacowboy

Where you are wrong is that Ray Atkinson acts as an agen for PvT and Ray chose to use HA and then when it died use AR as a means of promoting his business (and by default PHs who he acts for as an agent) and as such it does not fit "It's nobody's business but theirs"

Mike

Whaaat?????

almostacowboy

Read you last psot carefully and then see hoiw many times you have posted on this thread.

Mike

quote:

Originally posted by mrlexma:


And almostacowboy, you're just as bad. The level of discourse on this thing has plummeted and it's really a damned shame.

I apologize to you, sir.
Dave

Men,

My first and last thoughts on this subject of the sheephunter business.

When on this web site you are a guest of Saeed and are definitely not acting like it. On the other hand Saeed seems to have gone past reasonable hospitality by bending over backwards by letting you challenge and insult him in his own house repeatedly. If you do not like your host, the company he keeps( which is ecxellent by the way), or his friends LEAVE. It is what a scholar and a gentleman would do who under the circumstances you find yourselves in. Saeed has allowed you to share your opinion with us as a good host would do. Now that you have shared your dipleasure with Saeed( the host) do the rest of us a favor and depart the hosts house, as a good guest would do.

John

quote:

Originally posted by Mike378:
almostacowboy

Read you last psot carefully and then see hoiw many times you have posted on this thread.

Mike

I know! I know! What can I say? I'm weak and I know it. I can resist anything except temptation!

DAve

MR

In my opinion if Saeed endorses Ray/PVT as a stand alone thread that will kill most of it.

He has given a couple of lightweight endorsements buried among a 1600 posting thread.

I think it is fairly well established that Saeed knows Atkinson and PVT very well. As such a stand alone thread from Saeed endorsing both of them will kill off most of the talk. At this stage he is obviously not prepared to make such an endorsement.

Perhaps Saeed's internet is not working or perhaps he is not prepared to make such an endorsement.

But I would bet if Saeed makes such an endorsement on the African forum then the big thread will die and Ray will be able to reappear on AR.

A stand alone thread from Saeed endorsing Atkinson/PVT is about as good as it can get. Lack of of such an endorsement is about as bad as it can get.

Mike

Dave,

Your statement "It's nobody's business but theirs" would be true if Atkinson did not use public forums to promote his business and hence the business of PHs.

Mike

quote:

Originally posted by Mike378:
MR

In my opinion if Saeed endorses Ray/PVT as a stand alone thread that will kill most of it.

* * *

But I would bet if Saeed makes such an endorsement on the African forum then the big thread will die and Ray will be able to reappear on AR.

Mike

Mike, that is precisely where you are dead wrong on this whole bloody thing.

Meaning absolutely no disrespect to Saeed, but his endorsement should carry no weight with anyone who can think for himself and draw his own, independent conclusions from this mess.

MR

If I am dead wrong it won't be the first time

But if we assume that Atkinson/PvT are OK and there has been a fuckup with Sheephunter (for whatever reason) do you think a stand alone endorsement from Saeed would be of benefit to Atkinson/PvT and assist in putting the matter to rest.

Mike

Some of the people who persist on posting on this very dead topic are the reason I won't share a hunting camp with others. Kudude

quote:

Originally posted by phurley5:
500grains ----- I really would like to go to Dallas and visit with my good friends, Ray and Pierre' but with arrangements already for Reno I cannot. They provided me with a fantastic hunt in the Selous. Pierre" and Anneli going out of their way to provide that extra personal service, for a client who was a rookie on a minor hunt. It has taken you 41 pages on the Mega Forum to answer the question about Sheephunters hunt, and the jury is still out. I have never heard another word of negative reporting on another Pierre' van Tonder hunt. There is the evidence for all to see, and Pierre' has not been critical of Sheephunter anywhere that I have seen. Go figure. Good shooting.

Hello again Pat,

sorry to upset your picture of the world,but I feel obligated to maybe present things for what they are,not what some folks like them to be.


As you know I joined you with some others praising Pierre's comraderie and camp last year,

that very experience directed me to arrange yet another hunt with him.

To this day,I have not "badmouthed " Pierre as you maybe suggest Pierre do to me or not.

These presentations are not "badmouthing" but open reports for actual experiences.They are open for all to see and for all to correct.

As I heard yesterday on CNN : sunshine is the best disinfectant .

The fact that you together with others and myself ,in the past had a nice hunt with Pierre ,enjoyed his company etc ..,has absolutely nothing to do with what transpired here.

I thought that Pierre is a straightshooter,his word is his bond.

Well, to be fair,recent publications here forced me to re evaluate that belief.

When I heard from Saeed that Pierre categorically denies ever having offered me a hunt in the Kigosi, I see quite the opposite.

I see a recognition that he feels he cannot and does not want to come to terms with reality.


When you state: the jury is still out.What are you implying or hoping for?

I must interpret your comments as taking sides in a clan like effort.

There was and is ample opportunity to present all facts.

I have taken pains in objectively publishing a timeline etc.

I have not badmouthed anyone,just presented facts. Still you and others insist that "there is another side" ,and imply if that is really the case,that this new story would negate all I published already.

Are you calling me a dishonest fabricator of stories?

When can folks be objective and evaluate presented facts without lending preconceived support to one person?


When you say,you are Pierre's friend,as I thought I was,why are you not my friend too?

Can you not be honest in your judgement?

You are implying that I publish my experience to badmouth Pierre.Well read the thread again - slowly.

then it might occur toyou that I was forced by his "supporters" to defend myself by pubishing more and more facts,as I could not let stand the clanish accusations.

I gave Pierre every opportunity to respond
I gave Ray evry opportunity to be honest.


Why am I the culprit when I report actual experiences,contortions to cover up what was never truth?

Sheephunter ----- I will tell you exactly how I see this hunt of yours. You bought a hunt from Pierre'. He tried his best to accomodate your wants by arranging the hunt to the best of his ability and resources available, in the end you did not get what you went for. It is that simple. I have been on many hunts where I did not get what I went for, I chalked it up to experience and hoped for a better hunt next time. I know that is a hard pill to swallow when you pay $30,000 for the hunt, but in my opinion that is the chance you take when you pay any amount for a hunt, when you get home can you answer the question, did I get my monies worth. Sometimes the Bear gets you, sometimes you get the Bear, that is the chance any hunter takes. Better luck next time. Good shooting.

phurley 5, it goes much deeper than what you are suggesting. If, as Sheephunter suggested, you go back and read each post slowly, perhaps it will unfog your mind. To many of us, it appears that Sheephunter was the victim of a classic bait and switch, and at $30,000.00, you're right, that is a hard pill to swallow. The original area that was promised, was switched at the last minute, with the assurance that the new area was better for the game he was looking for. Well, it turned out not to be better, in fact, when Sheephunter was there, it sucked. I don't care how hard a PH works, if he's in the wrong area, at the wrong time of year, he's not going to produce the desired results. Many of us place our trust, and money, in the hands of a booking agent, because they claim they've got the latest up to date information on the areas. Again, this turned out not to be the case. Sheephunter was screwed, and I'm sure he didn't enjoy it at all.

quote:

Originally posted by phurley5:
Sheephunter ----- I will tell you exactly how I see this hunt of yours. You bought a hunt from Pierre'. He tried his best to accomodate your wants by arranging the hunt to the best of his ability and resources available, in the end you did not get what you went for. It is that simple. I have been on many hunts where I did not get what I went for, I chalked it up to experience and hoped for a better hunt next time. I know that is a hard pill to swallow when you pay $30,000 for the hunt, but in my opinion that is the chance you take when you pay any amount for a hunt, when you get home can you answer the question, did I get my monies worth. Sometimes the Bear gets you, sometimes you get the Bear, that is the chance any hunter takes. Better luck next time. Good shooting.

Pat,

You are unfortunately missing the whole point.

this is NOT a discussion of a hunt that didnt turn out the way hoped for.
We all had those,and as you say correctly,thats life.

In my case I did careful planning,research etc,including our favorite Pierre.

Pierre offered me a hunt in the Kigosi,agreeing with all my desired gamebag.

I contracted and bought that hunt from what I believed to be an honest person.
Represented by an honest agent,who vouched for him.

The hunt was switched without my consent to a subpar area.

The area was switched because - as evident - the sold concession did not belong to Pierre.

He sold something he did not own and could not get.


I agreed to join Pierre in the switched area ,again because I chose to believe that the area would be at least equal.

Well Pat, it wasn's equal, it was dismal for the DG hunt booked.

That fact was known to others and I am sure to Pierre,but he doesnt have many choices to hunt me in when the original sold concession goes puff.

I dont know whether you are able to distinguish these factors.

they are totally distinct and seperate.

Yes Pierre is a pleasure to hunt with and he tries hard for us.but he cant pull the rabbit out of the hat when there aint no rabbits in the country.

And yes, from all available evidence this was not an accident but willful
on top of that attempts were made to discredit me for speaking up.

quote:

Originally posted by almostacowboy:

Re PVT etc: You just don't get it. It's nobody's business but theirs.

Even you do not believe that ridiculous statement. If you did, then you would not have read the mega thread, nor would you have posted on it there or here.

In addition to making enjoyable reading, all of us can learn from hunt reports. I learned quite a lot from Sheephunter's hunt report, and I think that most of the AR readership did as well. All of use owe Sheephunter a big THANK YOU for informing us of a very serious problem which we can now avoid for our future hunts. We should also thank him for making it our business, because we have all benefited from the public disclosure.

Thank you Sheephunter!

You can pick your friends. You can pick your nose. But, you cannot pick your friend's nose. I think.

Mike 378,

you can add me to the long and rapidly growing list of people who think you're an asshole. Can't you get your peabrain around the idea that:
A. Most of us don't care about your silly-ass whiney post
B. All of us would like to see you banned from this URL
C. A fair majority of us would cheerfully punch you in your senile dementia-ed nose

I do have one question: you are from the lineage of Australia's original colonizers, aren't you?

regards,

Rich

quote:

Originally posted by mikeh416Rigby:
phurley 5, it goes much deeper than what you are suggesting. If, as Sheephunter suggested, you go back and read each post slowly, perhaps it will unfog your mind. To many of us, it appears that Sheephunter was the victim of a classic bait and switch, and at $30,000.00, you're right, that is a hard pill to swallow. The original area that was promised, was switched at the last minute, with the assurance that the new area was better for the game he was looking for. Well, it turned out not to be better, in fact, when Sheephunter was there, it sucked. I don't care how hard a PH works, if he's in the wrong area, at the wrong time of year, he's not going to produce the desired results. Many of us place our trust, and money, in the hands of a booking agent, because they claim they've got the latest up to date information on the areas. Again, this turned out not to be the case. Sheephunter was screwed, and I'm sure he didn't enjoy it at all.

VERY Simple solution. If SH feels he was terribly wronged, get a lawyer and sue. I suspect that he has already spoken to one and was told he doesn't have a case. That is why he is trying it in this kangaroo court.

quote:

I do have one question: you are from the lineage of Australia's original colonizers, aren't you?

regards,

Rich

No. Both my grandfathers migrated to Australia from Ireland and both by grandmothers were born in Australia and their parents had migrated to Australia from Ireland.

Do you normally read and post on threads in which you have no interest.

Mike

JUST DROP ALL THIS POST GRABBING BULLSHIT! I HAVE NEVER BEEN TO AFRICA. I WOULD LIKE TO GO. AND IF I WENT I WOULD SIMPLY ASK SOME ONE (WHO KNOWS 1% M0RE THAN ME) WHERE TO GO. NOT OVER SPECULATE THE OUTFITTER. SOME OUR MEMEBERS NEED TO GET A LIFE. HAD I NOT HAD A FEW TONIGHT..........

quote:

Originally posted by Tembo:

quote:

Originally posted by mikeh416Rigby:
phurley 5, it goes much deeper than what you are suggesting. If, as Sheephunter suggested, you go back and read each post slowly, perhaps it will unfog your mind. To many of us, it appears that Sheephunter was the victim of a classic bait and switch, and at $30,000.00, you're right, that is a hard pill to swallow. The original area that was promised, was switched at the last minute, with the assurance that the new area was better for the game he was looking for. Well, it turned out not to be better, in fact, when Sheephunter was there, it sucked. I don't care how hard a PH works, if he's in the wrong area, at the wrong time of year, he's not going to produce the desired results. Many of us place our trust, and money, in the hands of a booking agent, because they claim they've got the latest up to date information on the areas. Again, this turned out not to be the case. Sheephunter was screwed, and I'm sure he didn't enjoy it at all.

VERY Simple solution. If SH feels he was terribly wronged, get a lawyer and sue. I suspect that he has already spoken to one and was told he doesn't have a case. That is why he is trying it in this kangaroo court.

Neither of any of the above Tembo

quote:

Originally posted by Tembo:

VERY Simple solution. If SH feels he was terribly wronged, get a lawyer and sue. I suspect that he has already spoken to one and was told he doesn't have a case. That is why he is trying it in this kangaroo court.

Wow! That must be the lamest thing I have ever read on this site. I would explain, but where do I start?

Has there ever been a case where a wronged client could expect to win in court against a hunting outfitter?

Jason

Sheephunter ----- I read all the information very slowly. I will repeat what I said very slowly. Pierre' tried to accomodate your hunt to the best of his ability and resources available. You and I both know that Pierre' felt he was bettering your chances of getting what you wanted in the new location, irregardless of the logistics of getting there. It didn't turn out and you are squealing like a stuck pig over the results. That is one reason that I pay for very few hunts and only in places where I cannot qualify myself as knowledgeable about the territory. My point is when you pay for a hunt and depend on the other fellow, you take that chance, in this case your hunt didn't work out. Better luck next time. They call it "Dark Africa" for a reason.

Let's all hope that we have better luck in finding a good PH that doesn't make promises that he cannot keep (like the hunting location), denies that he made those arrangements (eventhough it is in his correspondence), has an outfitter that is abusive to his clients in public..... I could go on, but if you really did read all of the posts then you would come to a conclusion that shedding a little light on "Dark Africa" was a bit lucky for the rest of us.

quote:

All of us owe Sheephunter a big THANK YOU for informing us of a very serious problem which we can now avoid for our future hunts. We should also thank him for making it our business, because we have all benefited from the public disclosure.

Thank you Sheephunter!

Right on the money. Also the quite discerning post by Longbob above. Well said.

Many thanks, Sheephunter. Not just for posting your original hunt report but by continuing to flesh out the results, all the while opening yourself to ridicule, taunting, and sneers. You could just as easily have slithered off into the shadows like the others have done. Even if you never recoup one penny from Ray/PVT, know this: your situation has opened my eyes to the unsavory aspects of African safari hunting. I will never again run 'doe-eyed' to a booking agent, handing him\her my hard-earned money, thinking they are my friend and that they have MY best interests in mind.
Those who cannot learn from history are doomed to repeat it. Next time I will not be such a greenhorn. Thanks to you.

quote:

Originally posted by phurley5:
Sheephunter ----- I read all the information very slowly. I will repeat what I said very slowly. Pierre' tried to accomodate your hunt to the best of his ability and resources available. You and I both know that Pierre' felt he was bettering your chances of getting what you wanted in the new location, irregardless of the logistics of getting there. It didn't turn out and you are squealing like a stuck pig over the results. That is one reason that I pay for very few hunts and only in places where I cannot qualify myself as knowledgeable about the territory. My point is when you pay for a hunt and depend on the other fellow, you take that chance, in this case your hunt didn't work out. Better luck next time. They call it "Dark Africa" for a reason.

Pat,....

how does one respond to your language?

Well, what always worked for me is to stick to the facts without interpreting it.

Lets look at some of the points you cited:

Pierre' tried to accomodate your hunt to the best of his ability and resources available.


YOu said you read the evidence I introduced.

If you did,unless you want to call ME a liar,you would have noticed that I said the same.

What you chose to forget and not see,apparantly because you dont want to see , is the FACT that Pierre sold me a hunt in the Kigosi.

This location was not an accident, the place was chosen as a result of careful research in regards to the desired game bag.

Parallel hunting reports by others second that success for the trophies in question were present in numbers and were attained.

Pierre then ,at some time realized that he could not deliver what he had sold.

Instead of sharing that embarrassing bit of news,he silently switched me to what was available to rent on short notice. In other words, to an area that nobody else wanted,it is still open.

AR members second here on this forum,the absolute subpar quality of the new area.

I did not,I did the mistake of trusting my friend Pierre,did not want to believe that his word was any less than true.

Well I and we learned differently just recently.


So if you want to put blame on my shoulder,I will accept it, if you place blame on me because I did the stupid thing of trusting Pierre's honesty as well as Rays loud assurances.

Then,when the feat unfolded here on the forum,when the real reason of the snafu came out.

Who squealed? who tried in ever more convoluted fshion to blame the lack of success on ever new stories and twisted arguments.Who verbally abused me and chided me for even having the idea of questioning anything about what was being delivered?
who asked and actually DEMANDED that I take what was being given by Pierre and not asking about the statistics of past results?


SO what is your definition of the word accomodate,
where did he accomodate me,was that my request?
did I ask for it,based on what was known?

Remarkable how a preconceived opinion about a man,can impair another mans senses

In the time since you have posted this report SH, have you. . .
1. Been in contact with Pierre?
2. Made requested a refund or a make hunt from Pierre?
3. Had any negotiation with either party?
4. Been offered anything by either party?
5. Been told by either party that they'd like to talk with you about some kind of make good hunt or refund?

Just wondering.

The facts, such as they are, have been presented repeatedly on the other thread. There is no need to repeat and reiterate what has already been covered to a nauseating degree. Let it play out there.
This is nothing more than an attempt to transfer the dispute to the main forum on this site and get more people involved. Keep the dispute where it belongs. On the origional thread.

TerryR