I sent the link to Mohanjeet Brar's lion trophy picture to someone I know in India. The man owns a rifle and I thought he would be interested in seeing the results of a fantastic hunt. His first question was, "Why did that poor lion have to be shot?" Followed by "Couldn't it be relocated somewhere else if there are too many lions in Tanzania?"

My response was to ask him if he wanted lions relocated to his posh neighbourhood in India to roam about there and end the silly conversation. But, how does one talk to people as extreme as this?

This one doesn't. They are a closed book.

But, if you are desperate though, you might want to ask if they are vegatarian, wear leather shoes, etc.

Being from India, if he is a Hindu, by chance, or a Bhuddist, it would explain things.

Also, ask him how they handle man-eating tigers over there...

Just some thoughts.

I agree with RSHim, If they are anti hunting, nothing you say is going to change their mind. All the facts in the world supporting hunting aren't going to do anything. Save your breath.

He would rather make a god out of a cow (or lion) than worship the God that created it. Thats why some of them sell their daughters into prositution to pay for food and let all of that meat walk around.

I think it depends on the situation.

Sometimes it helps to throw them offguard by starting somewhere they don't expect and upsetting their paradigm. Here in the States I sometimes lead off by discussing the good I've done by donating meat to food banks. It isn't where I want to end up, but they can't argue with feeding the hungry.

I remember once when I was in Japan I was discussing a recent hunting trip with a friend at his restaurant. A complete stranger sitting next to me at the counter chimed in by saying he hated hunting because it violated nature.

I looked at this guy and noticed he was eating ikezukuri. That's essentially a still living fish that's been gutted and spitted on a bamboo stick, with the flesh scored to be eaten as sashimi. The Japanese love fresh sashimi, and it doesn't get any fresher than that. So I say "You're eating a living fish, and you think I'm violating nature?"

My friend said "I think he's got you there" to the stranger, who looked at the still gasping fish and said "You know, I never thought about it that way."

What I have learned from debates with antis is that you can have opinions based on facts regarding what, where, when or how to hunt. Such debates are, God knows, also found among hunters... When it comes to the antis that just hates hunting as such, that is an emotional matter, and so is our love of hunting. Them being antis and we being hunters are both a matter of emotions, not of fact. We better accept that and react accordingly, because if we hide behind any attempts to defend hunting with rational arguments only, we are going to loose the debate. These rational arguments are important, but never enough to defend that hunting take the form it does because we love it.

Regards,
Martin

Okay, I'll play "What would you say?"

quote:

His first question was, "Why did that poor lion have to be shot?" :

He did not have to be shot, but because he can be hunted a lot of foreign currency goes into Tanzania, giving value to the wildlife. Because it takes a large enough wild area to support a huntable population of lions, all wildlife (game and non-game species) can benefit. Without the hunt the animals lose their value except for the protein they provide (excluding the animals in tourist game parks, but you cannot make all the undeveloped areas into parks).

quote:

Followed by "Couldn't it be relocated somewhere else if there are too many lions in Tanzania?"

Where lions are in the decline it has more to do with loss of habitat and conflict between man and lions (killing of cattle, for example). Relocating lions from a wilderness area to one where they will come into conflict with humans and be shot for killing cattle is not a better solution.


Okay, so maybe I am dead wrong on the reasoning but it sounds good.

quote:

Originally posted by Magnum Hunter1:
He would rather make a god out of a cow (or lion) than worship the God that created it. Thats why some of them sell their daughters into prositution to pay for food and let all of that meat walk around.

This post is disgusting. You show a level of ignorance that easily equals or supasses that of most anti-hunters.

Dont even bother with discussion

Tell them if they have a complaint to put it in writing and send it to their local politician

Also tell them to mind their own business and you will mind yours, end of story.

Then take a bite on your nice juicy hamburger and smile broadly as you wave goodbye

Peter

Balla Balla-
Right on!

It is like arguing religion and politics and the war in Iraq/Afganistan/wherever. No winners, just mad people.

A large percentage of the people who are "anti-hunting" just haven't been exposed to an alternative point of view. They are seriously misinformed by a biased media and have never heard anything positive about hunting.

I'm not naive; I grew up in the San Francisco Bay area and have spent a lot of time in both S.F. and Berkeley. I've had a lot of conversations that have went something like:

Acquantance: "Did you see the Cal-Stanford game on Sunday?"

Me: "No, I was hunting."

Acquantance: "You A#*hole!"

But not everyone is a complete write-off.

quote:

Tell them if they have a complaint to put it in writing and send it to their local politician

He probably already does if he is a devoted anti-hunter. Some of the animal-rights people spend about the same time and energy on their quest as we do on hunting. We can never convince them but we can correct some of the factual errors, and I think that is important enough.

Regards,
Martin

Blah,
It is pretty disgusting. Thats what happens when you raise the level of animal importance to that equal to, or above, the value of man.

When asked. . . ."You killed a. . . . .?

I answer, "Yes I killed it. I took it's horns and it's hide and whenever possible I ate it's flesh."

quote:

Originally posted by Magnum Hunter1:
Blah,
It is pretty disgusting. Thats what happens when you raise the level of animal importance to that equal to, or above, the value of man.

Oh really? Well, I'll tell you what... there are few people in the world that I would pick to save over my dog if they were both in a buring building and I could only get one out.

My issue is that your statements show a single mindedness that rivals any anti-hunting person I have personally encountered. I would suggest that you actually know VERY little about the hindu religion and are of the "my way/religion is the only right way" crowd. That my friend is truly sad. There are a lot of things that can be learned in the world if you open your mind and perspecitve up a little. While I personally wouldn't worship a cow as a divine being, I think that a lot of us could learn something from them about respect for the land/wrld around us... and the notion of Karma seems pretty just as well. I think belittling someone for their beliefs is sad and pathetic. The simple fact is, if you were prought up in that society.. there would be a 90%+ chance you'd have similar feelings. I actually think a religious objection to hunting is probably the most valid reason to have an issue with it. Most everyone else is brain washed by too many nature shows about how we're out there "killing bambi".... slaughtering near extinct game, etc.

It's true that some people just don't want to hear the facts and they react on an emotional level.... just as some people have in this very thread. But, I think that a lot can be done with better education of the public about how conservation really works... where money to save wetlands, woods, etc really comes from. For crying out loud, if there wasn't controlled and liscened hunting of waterfoul in the US.... there would be VERY few ducks left at this point... and even smaller areas of wetland. Duck hunting SAVED habitat and the animals. I think that is really one of the clearest examples of conservation and hunter's dollars at work. We need increased visibility of these kinds of programs in the public eye.

Since I find it hard to hide my passion for hunting and Africa, I get into quite a few of these type of discussions. I have yet to engage with anyone who would not at least hear me out. I talk to them using the same type of argument that Charles_Helm described. Sport hunting is the primary reason that there are so many wild animal left. We have a great story and I believe, if presented properly, one that can change minds. We should engage because no one is going to do it for us.

My Dad always told me that if you want to increase an animal population there are two sure ways to do it; raise it for food or charge sport hunters to kill it. Land owners protect that which has value.

Doug

Mehul-

Make sure he part with that rifle very quickly, hope he shows interest for stamp collecting, golf or has some other interest

I consider most of these people to be a bunch of hypocrites and terrorist supporters. Sounds like you bumped into some sort of the urban elitist PETA, grennie hippy type who knows it all. They all believe that all animals are sweet and cuddly like in those silly Disney movies. Tell him that lions, leopards and tigers are mans best friend

In India PETA, Hindu religious guru's has managed to brainwash a large number of people. Most of these vegetarian urbanites have little idea of animals or wildlife, I serious doubt they know how food is produced

PETA conceals that they euthanasia most of the animals they are given for adoption. I hear that PETA in India dump dead animals outside homes of those who are hunting. How did they get these animals? Many of these anti’s relent to violence, arson or destruction of property. These retards see them selves as compassionate “freedom fightersâ€.

Cheers
/JOHAN

quote:

Originally posted by Magnum Hunter1:
Blah,
It is pretty disgusting. Thats what happens when you raise the level of animal importance to that equal to, or above, the value of man.

Do you have a dog? Do you pay for dog food? Why not put the dog down so that you can send the money to starving humans instead?

I don't only think your posts are offensive, but I also think you are wrong and your kinds of "arguments" is exactly what the antis thrive on.

We are fortunate here to have freedom of religion (at least for a while) among other things in this country. We are blessed that those rights are recognized. You are certainly free to believe what you would like and free to be wrong if it be so.

As stated before a dedicated ANTI can't be reasoned with because their belief is base solely on emotion. The reality is most folks don't really have a solid position but are vulnerable to persuasion by either side. You have some chance with these folks. You might be surprised at how many people don't realize that hunting really still takes place.

I was in London one time at one of those Japanese restaurants where everybody kind of eats at the same bar around a grill. We struck up a conversation with some locals and a woman from Australia. The Brits asked us what we were upto and we said we had just returned from a hunting safari in Africa. They were totally amazed. They had no idea that foks still did that. They asked lots of questions but nothing had an accusator tone at all. They were just curious. The Aussie on the other hand business suit aside knew all about it and went into great detail about the camel and donkey cull hunts.

I guess the point is that everybody that doesn't hunt is not an ANTI and possibly could be synpathetic so let's not try to put these folks off as I think they are the majority and could help us in the long run.

Mark

I truly don't think it's beneficial to berate the antis.....but I also don't think one can rationalize with them either as they're not rational.

Best to just change the subject.

If we are not supposed to eat animals, why are they made of meat?

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:
I truly don't think it's beneficial to berate the antis.....but I also don't think one can rationalize with them either as they're not rational.

Best to just change the subject.

I disagree, why letting them off without a debate? If we do, they can get of with telling any lies about hunting they wish.

But I think it is of vital importance not only responding to them. If we do, we will always be in a defensive posistion. I think we must initiate debates, selecting the "ground" for the fights.

For instance, don't let them use the concept "animal ethics" as if it was their own invention. Use it yourself in connection with hunting, heck, all hunting ethics are a sort of animal ethics. Try that on an anti and you will se his face getting really red!

Regards,
Martin

I like to point out that humans are a predatory animal.Thats why our eyes look foreward,(to hunt down animals)rather then on the sides of our heads(to look out for the predators).We have teeth designed to eat flesh.We are the top predator of the food chain.

Meat that is hunted is much more healthy then meat raised for general slaughter.Most hunters butcher their own game leaving them the visual inspection of the meat.23 years as a butcher I've seen many a tumor.Ethical hunters take only healthy animals for their meat,and will put out of its misery any animal that is sick,wounded or in general bad health.

I like to tell a story about a mother in the wild giving birth to its young.Its a long birthing proces that a pack of hunters come apon.The hunters are hungery and they think how easy the new born calf would be to kill.The hunters close in for the kill.The mother tries to ward off their advances on her new calf,but the hunters are to many and to heavily armed to kill.The mother finally runs for her life leaving the calf to die.The hunters are lions or wolves depending on where this takes place.

i got sick of arguing with anti's long ago. their minds can't be changed. now if they ask me "how can you kill those poor animals" i usually say, "God made me a member of the most successful predator species to ever walk this planet. i don't need a reason to kill animals" this usually shuts them up for a little bit which is about all we can hope for.

it is better to paste this against the wall and proceed...

usualy i ask if they eat meat...usualy yes and i say so you are a coward who needs a butcher? long pause...yeah, i guess.

either that or i say how would you survive 100 years ago in the u.s. or currently in 3rd world countries?

unless they are vegetarians who use no animal products leather and all they are the coward and i am the honest person who knows the value of my hamburger and leather shoes

quote:

I like to point out that humans are a predatory animal.Thats why our eyes look foreward,(to hunt down animals)rather then on the sides of our heads(to look out for the predators).We have teeth designed to eat flesh.We are the top predator of the food chain.

great post

Mehul, I think it is more of an emotional response with all of us than reason.We invent/construct reasons to defend ourselves.But, as others were saying, those positions are not really unchangeable.An appeal with a judicious mixture of reason and emotions will surely drive the point home.While speaking to them,focus should be more on the conservational aspect of hunting.JMHO.

As some of you gentlemen hint at, not all anti-hunters are rabid, vegetarian, illiterate numskulls with unnatural hatred for hunters and hunting.There are many well educated and nice people whom, if you come across them on neutral grounds, you may even like to befirend. For many, conservation is a passionate issue as it is for me.There are many who have dedicated their lives to conservation and believe that they have valid reaons to not to allow hunting.You can reason with them and still remain friends. I have a few of that sort.

The most difficult and most irritating people are the moralists who need a reason to look down on others to reassure themselves of their superiority. I generally ignore them.

Us or Them outlook may not be helpful. We need all the numbers we can muster.I keep trying to convince my friends of the value of sustainable hunting.

Best to all-
Locksley,R.

Anti hunters are typical of the people who,cant kill a chicken but are happy to buy it off the shelf.
I met a greenpeace dag the other day asking me to help them save the forest, I asked here what it was like there,she said she didnt know cause shed never been there to see it.
We spend so much time trying to save things these days, that people are forgetting how to live.
Next thing will be is,"dont breathe" so we can save the air.

In my experience, most people are "swinging voters" on the subject of hunting and will go with whatever convincing argument they have heard. Unfortunately, most of them have seen the Disney version of nature and have been heavily exposed to the Green point of view and so are presently in the 'enemy camp'.

However, these people need to be handled carefully because, with a little thoughtful discussion, they can be brought back from 'the dark side'. They may never become hunters themselves, but they can be convinced that hunting is, in fact, good and not the evil they have been told it is.

The dedicated and fanatical antis are a lost cause and will never change their view - no matter how many facts you put before them. We shouldn't waste our time arguing with them but we need to monitor what they do and be ready to repair any damage they cause amongst the swinging voters.

quote:

Originally posted by Magnum Hunter1:
He would rather make a god out of a cow (or lion) than worship the God that created it. Thats why some of them sell their daughters into prositution to pay for food and let all of that meat walk around.

quote:

Originally posted by Magnum Hunter1:
Blah,
It is pretty disgusting. Thats what happens when you raise the level of animal importance to that equal to, or above, the value of man.

quote:

We are fortunate here to have freedom of religion (at least for a while) among other things in this country. We are blessed that those rights are recognized. You are certainly free to believe what you would like and free to be wrong if it be so..

Do you realise the utter ignorance and callousness of the attitude your words reek with? Did you really give it a thought before you pressed that “enter†key and expose your uncouth cerebrations? What made you think that that person’s reaction Mehul referred to was because of his religious beliefs? That person might have been a better educated man and definitely a better human being than you. What if that man was an atheist and his reaction was simply emotional, albeit unreasonable and silly?

What do you know of that civilization and what do you know of poverty and starvation apart from the myopic stereotypes borrowed from the accounts by a few racist brains of Colonial minions?

I don’t know which country you live in that you say blesses you with religious freedom to all. Many countries in this world give such rights to its citizens and mine certainly does. Freedom is not license to shoot of irrelevant and irreverent remarks. Did you notice that none of the rest of the gentlemen here made posts in such bad taste?

Finally, re importance given to animals, blah was gentlemanly in addressing you as a friend. I will never have a boor like you for a friend, not that it matters to you, and if there were one hundred Magnum Hunters and one little dog in danger, I will choose to rescue that little dog.

I really don’t think you are man enough to apologise for that offensive remark.

Mehul, my personal apologies to you for hijacking this post.

Rest of you please forgive my rant.

Best to all-

Locksley,R.

quote:

I will never have a boor like you for a friend, not that it matters to you, and if there were one hundred Magnum Hunters and one little dog in danger, I will choose to rescue that little dog.

Regards,
Martin

Those that do not eat or use any animal products do not bother me so much- at least they live by their beliefs. Some of those "middle of the road" people are worse because they will tell you that hunting is cruel and terrible while they eat their hamburger. I say if you do not have the fortitude to shoot a deer or hit a pig over the head with a hammer you do not deserve the meat.

Some anti's can be reasoned with, some cannot.
My favourite way is to wait until they have finished eating the venison/gamebird/hare, and then ask of they enjoyed the meal? The answer is usually yes, even if only to be polite. Then my wife tells them how proud she is that I can go out and harvest game, and then cook it.
Sometimes they go green at the gills, sometimes they look at me as if I am an Ogre. And sometimes they say, "I didn't know you hunted, can I come along next time?"
It makes a pleasent change from banging my head against a brick wall.
And this way, I get to have fun, regardless of the outcome!

Cheers, Dave.
Non Illegitium Carborundum

Well, unfortunately, it is a religious battle. Either God is god or man is god (hence the man-made, earth based religions) As we all have seen, man makes a poor god. Our Creator did make us a predator, superior to the animals and in His image. But blah and RobinOLocklsley , if the choice comes down to saving you or some other animal, I would save you. Because your worth is much more than any animal. The antis believe much differently.

One doesn't speak to anti-hunters.

quote:

Originally posted by mehulkamdar:
I sent the link to Mohanjeet Brar's lion trophy picture to someone I know in India. The man owns a rifle and I thought he would be interested in seeing the results of a fantastic hunt. His first question was, "Why did that poor lion have to be shot?" Followed by "Couldn't it be relocated somewhere else if there are too many lions in Tanzania?"

My response was to ask him if he wanted lions relocated to his posh neighbourhood in India to roam about there and end the silly conversation. But, how does one talk to people as extreme as this?

I liked your response

quote:

Originally posted by Grafton:
Those that do not eat or use any animal products do not bother me so much- at least they live by their beliefs. Some of those "middle of the road" people are worse because they will tell you that hunting is cruel and terrible while they eat their hamburger. I say if you do not have the fortitude to shoot a deer or hit a pig over the head with a hammer you do not deserve the meat.

I have a friend who is a vegetarian, and she is quite the anti-hunter. I tell her she is my best friend, because she proves every day that humans don't have to eat meat to live.

Whenever I am faced with an anti, I politely ask if they eat meat. Invariably, the answer is "yes."

I then ask why. The answer usually involves the need to eat meat, etc. I then tell them that many vegetarians live perfectly healthy lives and never eat meat, and the only reason ANYONE eats meat is because they like the taste. So why is killing an animal for its head morally imperfect to eating its flesh?

Niether is morally superior to the other. But let's face it: Americans are not going to give up their T bones just to stop hunting. So put them in their place.

And what if the anti is a vegetarian? I then ask them if if they are pro-choice. Invariably the answer is "yes."

I then say, "So I am I. I choose to hunt."

I have had the eating meat vs hunting moral high ground arguement published twice in USA Today. You guys should try it. It works.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by BwanaBob:
In my experience, most people are "swinging voters" on the subject of hunting and will go with whatever convincing argument they have heard. Unfortunately, most of them have seen the Disney version of nature and have been heavily exposed to the Green point of view and so are presently in the 'enemy camp'.


I agree.

Maybe it is just because I live in Texas and not on one of the coasts, but most of the antis that I talk to are willing to listen to my arguments. Most of them have never thought thre issue through and have weak arguments.

I don't try to convince them that it is OK that I kill a deer because all that they see is Bambie. They will, however, buy the argument that a hunter willing to pay a large fee to hunt an aminal increases the value of that animal. None that I have talked with have a clue about the economics of sport hunting.

Doug

quote:

Originally posted by RobinOLocksley:

quote:

Originally posted by Magnum Hunter1:
He would rather make a god out of a cow (or lion) than worship the God that created it. Thats why some of them sell their daughters into prositution to pay for food and let all of that meat walk around.

quote:

Originally posted by Magnum Hunter1:
Blah,


It is pretty disgusting. Thats what happens when you raise the level of animal importance to that equal to, or above, the value of man.

quote:

We are fortunate here to have freedom of religion (at least for a while) among other things in this country. We are blessed that those rights are recognized. You are certainly free to believe what you would like and free to be wrong if it be so..

Do you realise the utter ignorance and callousness of the attitude your words reek with? Did you really give it a thought before you pressed that “enter†key and expose your uncouth cerebrations? What made you think that that person’s reaction Mehul referred to was because of his religious beliefs? That person might have been a better educated man and definitely a better human being than you. What if that man was an atheist and his reaction was simply emotional, albeit unreasonable and silly?

What do you know of that civilization and what do you know of poverty and starvation apart from the myopic stereotypes borrowed from the accounts by a few racist brains of Colonial minions?

I don’t know which country you live in that you say blesses you with religious freedom to all. Many countries in this world give such rights to its citizens and mine certainly does. Freedom is not license to shoot of irrelevant and irreverent remarks. Did you notice that none of the rest of the gentlemen here made posts in such bad taste?

Finally, re importance given to animals, blah was gentlemanly in addressing you as a friend. I will never have a boor like you for a friend, not that it matters to you, and if there were one hundred Magnum Hunters and one little dog in danger, I will choose to rescue that little dog.

I really don’t think you are man enough to apologise for that offensive remark.

Mehul, my personal apologies to you for hijacking this post.

Rest of you please forgive my rant.

Best to all-

Locksley,R.

Hey now... he's not really my friend! I was just trying to be polite

But seriously Magnum...I'm not trying to sound offensive here. But I think that you should try and actually KNOW something (anything???) about a culture/people before opening your mouth. You might suprise youself and learn something interesting.

But, this ranting is SO far off topic from the OP. No more of it from me.

A lot of good points have been raised in this thread. Most seemto feel, as do I, that increased public exposure and education is KEY. Most people aren't die hard anti-hunters. We as hunters do SO much forthe protection of habitat and game. It's time we get some credit for all of our effort and money in the mainstream press.