quote:

Originally posted by LionHunter:
And what country did Miss Selby shoot her 1973 Ele in when she used the 7x57? The picture portrays a rather flat and open looking area. I wonder if her Poppa would have allowed the same rifle in his child's hands had she been required to enter into the thick of the jess searching for her beastie.

If not a 7x57, then what chambering would the AR Pachyderm Xperts,
ideally suggest a 14 yr old girl, use to persue Ele up close in the thick of the jess?


should be interesting.......

quote:

suggest a 14 yr old girl, use to persue Ele up close in the thick of the jess?

If she cannot handle a 375 (but preferably a 416) then she should come back once she has upgraded by two "cup" sizes at least.

You did say "in the thick of the jesse" not on a football pitch with daddy and possibly a buddy ready with the heavyweights to make sure the gal doesn't come off second best.

Out of the 3 my personal choice would not be the 458 as it is somewhat specialised and in no way a 'general' calibre, however I would turn down your Mod 70 and go for a CZ.
Matt

For elephant I will take my 458 Lott, If I could go to a safari.

ovny

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
... Caliber makes a difference, and more is good. What also makes a difference is "Bullet" within Caliber. Personally, I'd rather have a 375 loaded with a BBW#13 than a 577 loaded with a Woodleigh RN!!!!!!! By FAR! But, if all equal, all BBW#13 Solids, North Forks, than by damn give me the 577 every single time....

I gather a .577-650gn Steel jacketed RN FMJ woodleigh- is no slouch on despatching elephant.
If there is any BigBore fan here who would feel under gunned with such... please speak up now!

However, Michael seems to imply that an appropriately loaded .375 is a better choice.
[Maybe he can point out the reasons why?]

which also suggests/gives the impression that bigger is not always better.

Surely a .375cal-BBW#13 that apparently offers more to the hunter than a .577 WL-steel-RNFMJ,
should be considered considerably more than just 'ENOUGH' gun for elephant.
and a hunter proficient with a .375-BBW#13 would be by no means under-gunned.

Trax

Wrong! You gather absolutely incorrectly that a 577 Round Nose WOodleigh is worth two hoots in hell for straight line penetration, and I would feel "Under Bulleted", and it is not in my opinion dependable on elepant. My point, that you have taken out of context is about bullet selection within Caliber. Me, I utterly DESPISE 375 anything, and do not own one, would not allow one on my compound and have absolutely no use what so ever for anything stamped 375. But if I had to choose between a proper bullet in 375 as opposed to a piss poor bullet (ANY ROUND NOSE SOLID) in a 577 or any ultra bore, then even as bad as I despise 375 caliber, I would choose 375, as bullet choice TRUMPS caliber. However, Same Proper North Fork or Cutting Edge BBW#13, then caliber Rules the day!

Michael

Ok,
I didnt realize how bad a performer
Woodleigh .577 cal 650gnSteel jacket RN FMJ, are in the real world.

I also didnt realize that any RN Solid bullet in .577 or any ultra bore, were such piss poor performers.

quote:

Originally posted by Trax:
Ok,
I didnt realize how bad a performer
Woodleigh .577 cal 650gnSteel jacket RN FMJ, are in the real world.

I also didnt realize that any RN Solid bullet in .577 or any ultra bore, were such piss poor performers.

Trax,

You can take it from someone that has taken more than 20 elephants and a few more than that buffalo with Woodleigh RN solids, they work just fine and penetrated straight line in all of those cases. I have formed my opinion after using them on game not from tests in artificial media. The FN solids do penetrate further in soft tissue but not in elephant heads. Shoot a few elephants with both bullet types and I believe that you will agree with me.

465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
Any rifle you can handle well.

I have shot elephants with a 375H&H, 416 Weatherby, 416 Rigby Improved and 375/404.

They all died!

You are a better man than I am in this regard.

I can shoot a .375 H&H just fine, and have done so in Zambia, but my experience with my two .458 Win Mags has been embarrassing, to say the least, probably because they were not set up properly for me. MY PH and I agreed to put that aside.

Right now, though I have no plans to go for elephants, buffs are on my wish list again, and I am thinking that the .416 Rem would be the one to take.

Slightly off topic, aside from the diversions into personal messages, I am always impressed with this forum and how one can get valuable insights about cartridge performances that are awfully hard to find otherwise. Thanks, guys.

And, oh yes, I still think a bolt .416 Rem perhaps in a Mod 70 would be the way to go even though I have a 500/450 Holland double. I am starting to think that the latter has gone up too much in value since I bought it and I shouldn't take it on the field.

We have flogged this horse a few times , but from my personal perspective of conducting over 200 elephant hunts , if someone arrives with a .375 I prepare for the worst and have seldom been wrong , the .416 Remington with good quality sledgehammer type bullets remain my all time favorite elephant calibre for sport hunters, when in the national parks service the standard issue was a .458 and in my expeience dispatched a bunch of dangerous problem animals, with new 450 grain bullets it's performance is right up there with the best of them , as a back up rifle I have used .375 and found it nowhere near adequate , thev.416 was a beaut but was a bolt action , my win .458 did not get the penetration needed, I then went to .500 double and was most impressed , but in a fleeing wounded elephant - anything beyond 50 yards mostly became a failure, now I use a Krighoff 500x416 and I think for my situation is perfect - a combination of the .416 for close encounters and charges and the greater ability for fleeing wounded dangerous game getting beyond 50 yards.

You say that the .416 Rem. "is not that much more powerful than a .375" (assume you mean a .375 H&H). Would it be possible to explain that statement so that we may understand that logic?

quote:

Originally posted by GOB:
You say that the .416 Rem. "is not that much more powerful than a .375" (assume you mean a .375 H&H). Would it be possible to explain that statement so that we may understand that logic?

It is not steps above the 375 like a 500 or 575 or even a Lott-it is just one step above.So,it will not make a world of a difference,IMO.Not enough to make it a foolish thing to hunt with one compared to a 416Rem.

The DG rifle a hunter selects to take into the field should be one that he can shoot proficiently.

If the hunter lacks the skills to make a proficient shot at 20 yards then he will have to get closer of not make the shot.

As for the round selected again it can be anything the hunter chooses.

As mentioned it could be anything from the 275 to the 600 NE, provided it is legal for the country you decide to hunt in. I would opt for the 416 Rigby or 458 if it were a bolt rifle or a 470 if in a double rifle.

Now if the Hunter has a brain fart a makes a poor shot as we have read about in the past. The PH is there to help assist the hunter and hopefully make a tracking job to the elephant for dispatch with out getting anyone hurt.

Elephants can go a long ways with a lot of lead or arrows poorly places into there large body's.

Thanks for your input.

375H&H
Shot four and they dropped
Its the placement as we all know

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:

quote:

Originally posted by Trax:
Ok,
I didnt realize how bad a performer
Woodleigh .577 cal 650gnSteel jacket RN FMJ, are in the real world.

I also didnt realize that any RN Solid bullet in .577 or any ultra bore, were such piss poor performers.

Trax,

You can take it from someone that has taken more than 20 elephants and a few more than that buffalo with Woodleigh RN solids, they work just fine and penetrated straight line in all of those cases. I have formed my opinion after using them on game not from tests in artificial media. The FN solids do penetrate further in soft tissue but not in elephant heads. Shoot a few elephants with both bullet types and I believe that you will agree with me.

465H&H

465HH

Sorry ole Buddy--I disagree with you now, I disagreed with you years ago, and I will continue to my grave to disagree with you on this. No Round Nose Solid can be counted on for straight line penetration 100% of the time. There are many many many verified reports from the field, from elephant heads, from elephant bodies, from buffalo bodies and other flesh and blood critters that report Round Nose Solids ARE NOT STABLE 100% of the time, they do veer off course in animal tissue, just the SAME as that horrible "Artificial Media", and they will continue to do so until the world is rid of the damned things once and for all! I can't imagine why any reasonable, Logical thinking person, with 2 cents worth of intelligence would use the damned things, IF EDUCATED???????

Point of Fact--Recent Report;

http://forums.accuratereloadin...1411043/m/5461070481

From Saeed--If I recall Correctly from a few years ago I was told this was a Barnes RN Solid--Please correct me if my recollection is incorrect.

quote:

I have seen a 500 grain from a 460 Weatherby hit an elephant in the grunk from the front, and miss teh whole body, as it was intended to be a heart shot.

It turned 90 degrees in the trunk and disappeared.

Another Thread from some years ago:

http://forums.accuratereloadin...=452101374&f=1411043

Some extractions of the above thread;

quote:

Ted Gorsline
one of us
Posted May 02, 2006 7:17 AM Hide Post
Dear Shakiri,

I was using Wolfgang Rommey factory loads. Its not that the 500 Jeffrey is not a good calibre. It is.

But I prefer straight line penetration above anything else because most of the buffalo I shoot are fleeing.

What struck me was me shooting at a fleeing buff with the 500 Jeffrey and a client shooting the same buffalo with the 9.3x74R and 300 grain Barnes solids.

It was about 100 yards going straight away fast. I hit the left ham and he hit the right and both hits were at about the same place.

My solid did not reach the chest cavity. It swerved and went up into the back. His solid went through to the front of the chest and killed the buff.

Soft nosed bullet are really only designed to make a big hole in the lungs. That is where they offer an advantage. But for any odd angle shot a solid is better.

VBR,


Ted Gorsline

quote:

Ted,

Interesting...... I note it was a Woodleigh solid which is FMJ.....do you know if there was any distortion? - When I use solids, (which is most of the time nowadays) I make it a rule to use mono solids.

quote:

Dear Shakiri,

It was a Woodleigh 535 grain solid and it did not distort. The boys cut it out and I looked at it. It may have veered upwards into the back and got stopped by the rubbery skin.

Joe O'Bannon, who hunts for Miombo, has a constant problem with Woodleigh solids veering off course in his 470s. I think it must be the shape of the nose. But on the whole I like them.

Yet Another Thread from the past on Woodleighs;

http://forums.accuratereloadin...=643101959&f=1411043

quote:

MopaneMike
one of us
Posted Apr 27, 2010 8:59 PM Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by srose:
Woodleigh softs are great and Swifts are to. I know from what I saw today with Michael I will never shoot a Woodleigh solid again on game. Yes I have killed buffalo and elephant with them in the past but its a wonder I did. Michael will post all the stuff he and I did today soon.

Sam


Sam,
To tell the truth, that's just the reason why I had a little bit of hesitation.. My first trip to Zambia (Kosonso)PH shot a Buff & I followed him up with my Lott/Swift combo. He used a 458Win w/500grn Woodleigh solid. Upon skinning & in the guts we found his solid bent almost in half and on the off side under the hide was my picture perfect Swift

MopaneMike

I can personally name at least a 1/2 dozen other individuals that have told me about their Woodleighs veering off course in Elephant Heads.

Enough is By God Enough!

I am Sick to Death of the "Woodleigh Cult"

Use a Good Bullet---North Fork and Cutting Edge BBW#13 Solids--They are Specifically Designed to Bust Hell out of Elephants, Buffalo, And Hippo and give dead straight dependable solid penetration!


Use of These Bullets Enhance any Cartridge! Then Choose your caliber--416 +++

End Of Story

Michael

I do not disagree with what Michael has said. However, the flat nose can be a problem in bolt guns. They have been known to hang up occasionally .

I will take my chances with the flat nose.

Michael, I do not want to be a cultist but is it okay to use a Woodleigh . . . a hydrostatically stabilized bullet . . .

That is my plan in March with the .577 anyway.

And here just today, we have yet another example of the RN Woodleigh failing to do the job as intended:

http://forums.accuratereloadin...461070481#5461070481

We continue to see examples of the RN veering off course over and over. But we don't see examples of the FN doing the same.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
Michael, I do not want to be a cultist but is it okay to use a Woodleigh . . . a hydrostatically stabilized bullet . . .

That is my plan in March with the .577 anyway.

Mike,

Did you sell all of your shoes to pay for the Woodleighs? Will you be hunting barefooted?

Seriously, the woodleigh is a seriously good bullet......the hydro of course.

As a matter of fact I do intend to hunt barefooted. I am following the example of the PH that hunts barefooted in Aussie. I am conditioning my feet by walking barefooted from the couch to the refrigerator 10-12 times a day.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
Michael, I do not want to be a cultist but is it okay to use a Woodleigh . . . a hydrostatically stabilized bullet . . .

That is my plan in March with the .577 anyway.

Mike

I think you will be just fine with the Hydro, good penetrator, lots of trauma as well. And, I like Woodleighs, Some of their softs are great as long as you stay within their Terminal performance range, one that comes to mind is the 416 340 PP, soft, excellent bullet, and there are others.

But a Woodleigh RN FMJ should GO AWAY FOREVER. It has outlived its time, one of the worst offenders of barrel strain, horrible terminal performance, there is NOT ONE GOOD THING one can say about a Woodleigh FMJ Solid! Not One!

Now, come on out from behind that couch, we are good to go--But, Please put your Shoes Back on!!!!




People-- Choose Your Bullet FIRST---Then ask "What Is Enough Gun", Better Still, ask "What Is More Than Enough Gun?" Adequate don't cut it with me!

Michael

Michael

Michael my friend,

Did you get up on the wrong side of the bed this am or did you have too much Gray Goose last night?

I agree with you 100% that Woodleigh RN solids will sometimes bend and deflect in animal tissue and they can deflect and veer of course. But exactly the same can be said about FN monometal solids. We have seen several reports of FN solids veering off course and or bending reported here. It all depends on what they hit. Whether one deflects more than another has yet to be proved in game. You may well be right but so far there isn't sufficient evidence to make that leap.

465H&H

465HH

No Man, not enough Goose is the issue! LOL...................

Get up on the same side of the bed every single morning, but I did sleep in rather late, nearly 4:30 am when I got up this morning! I know, shameful! What Can I say?

I can only assume you are talking about some of those awful small meplat trophy bonded or Noslers that were out some time ago, not a proper design, remember Walt, "All Flat Nose Solids Are not Created Equal!"

Oh sure, I have seen those sort of bullets break, bend, veer, flip upside down and do a jig. An improperly designed flat nose solid, meplat too small, nose profile wrong, poor construction, is no better than a Woodleigh FMJ.

I Think there is MORE than enough Evidence, and it piles up each and every year. I have seen enough on MY Range, In My Test Medium to be able to make that decision for myself, but, I have seen the same in the field as well. Bull Shit--Sufficient Evidence My Ass! Sorry Walt, No Offense, but that is an asinine statement. Pal, You and I are good to go, and if you were standing here in front of me right now I would make the same statement-- There Will NEVER be enough Evidence For You to Make that Leap! There Will Never Be Enough Evidence that a Woodleigh FMJ will veer off course in animal tissue to make you take that Leap! No matter how much, how many, nor for how long, you will ALWAYS support the Woodleigh FMJ Solid as the best thing since Sliced Bread! Nothing I will say, nor anyone else, nor stacks of evidence going to the sky will make one hill of beans difference in this area! And, By Damned, I am just as damned bull headed and stubborn in the opposite direction as well! Problem for you is-- I Am Right!

Now, that's all out of the way, Let's you and I talk "Sake"! Plan on having a liter of that this coming Friday!

Michael

Here is a picture of two flat nosed CEB #13 solids from my 577NE recovered from an elephant this October. Both were frontal brain shots and both were recovered near the base of the tail. One obviously hit something extremely hard during it's full length journey. What is was, we haven't been able to decide to date.

However, the salient point is that even though it encountered something HARD along it's way, it still penetrated straight line the full length of the elephant.

I'm sold! No Woodleigh (or any other brand for that matter ) round nosed solids for me. Thank you!!

Todd, what velocity were these moving?

2115 fps which is a bit fast for a 577NE. I think the original design specs are 2050 fps with a 750gr bullet.

A couple of questions;

When it is said "sick and tired of the Woodleigh cult", or "sick of the Woodleigh FMJ", is it the bullet profile causing the problems (original Kynoch profile as I understand it)or is it something to do with the construction which some are saying causes barrel strain and poor terminal performance etc?

Could it be that the original Woodleigh FMJs in some calibres are poor but in others are maybe fine. Thinking of the larger calibres with shorter bullets compared with say the 400gr 40 calibres with a longer bullet?

Just asking as a matter of interest, not implying anything.