In November I hunted two elephant and a buffalo with Buzz Charlton as I have previously reported here on AR; http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/8151050381

This was my first hunt with my new double rifle VC 500 NE. During the hunt some of the bullet performance puzzled me. And after coming home and looking at the video I am even more puzzled.

The rifle is regulated from VC with Hornady, but I used hand loads;

Loads; Woodleigh Round nose solids 570 grain with 95 grains of N140. Choreographed to 610 m/s = 2.000 fps.

All together I fired 11 shoots into game. Of these 3 were recovered. Two from elephant and one from buffalo.

Shots fired;

Buffalo;
1: from back 10 m– exited in front of chest
2: from back 10 m (see photo of angel at shot) left of spine – bullet recovered right shoulder - badly fishtailed and steel core cracked (see photo)

Angel of shot and bullet impact buffalo



Elephant bull;
3: shoulder a bit back 30 m – no exit – bullet not recovered
4: shoulder 30 m – exited
5: frontal brain shoot 15 m - passed through brain - recovered in neck – bullet fishtailed (see photo)
6 and 7: chest/throat - no exit – one bullet recovered in neck - no bullet damage

Tuskless cow
8: frontal right side of forehead 6 m – passed under brain – exited under chin
9: frontal right side of forehead 6 m – exited right ear (see photo from video) On the video you can see the bullet hit on the right side of the head and exit the right ear and hitting the ground 2 m behind the elephants right back foot.

Angel at shot on tuskless. Arrow shows bullet impact



Tuskless with arrows on bullet impact on forehead and dust from exited bullet on the ground



Video


10 and 11 frontal right side forehead 6 m – exited left ear and under chin

Bullets recovered. From left bullet 6, 2 and 5. Note fishtailing of 2 and 5 and crack in steel core bullet 2




What worries me is;
Shot 2: poor penetration. Bullet fishtailed and steel core cracked (see photo)
Shot 5: did kill elephant but bullet fishtailed
Shot 9: bullet impact and exit on the same side of the head. Seems that the bullet was deflected 70 - 80 ° inside head.


Questions.
-Is this the normal penetration with a 500 NE? I have used monometal bullets with my 416 that seem to have much better and straighter penetration.
- Is it normal for Woodleigh solids to fishtail on buffalo and elephant? Or is it possible that these bullets are unstable in my gun at this velocity?


Good hunting

Carl Frederik

Carl,

Check out the 268 pages or so on terminal bullet performance in the big bore section of this forum. There is an overwhelming amount of information there highlighting why the round nose bullets are less than optimal.

Up until this past year, I was shooting TSX and Barnes banded solids with the flat nose in my 500NE. Never had a problem with them but switched to the CEB #13 and Non-Cons this year as I believe they produce similar but better results as the Barnes.

For specific terminal bullet performance on the 500NE, there is a similar thread by Michael458 now running about 18 pages with testing done on all the major bullet makers. It is titled "Double Rifle Bullet of the Future" and is several pages down now.

Carl

By good shooting and quick thinking you were able to divert disaster. Congratulations on that, you did well. Your Choice of Bullet was very poor, as you now know. This is of no surprise to most of us.

Glad you survived and did not loose any animals, fellow might not be so lucky next time, do a little more research on good and proper bullets, might want to check out both North Fork and Cutting Edge BBW#13 Solids for this sort of mission in the future!

Again, job well done!

Michael

I thought the bullets worked fine and the shooting was poor.

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
I thought the bullets worked fine and the shooting was poor.

Your conclusion is that the lack of straight penetration is due to the first shot on the tuskless is low?

quote:

Originally posted by Carl Frederik Nagell:

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
I thought the bullets worked fine and the shooting was poor.

Your conclusion is that the lack of straight penetration is due to the first shot on the tuskless is low?

Carl, Pay no attention to Shootaway, he is the local "Idiot"..............

quote:

Originally posted by Carl Frederik Nagell:

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
I thought the bullets worked fine and the shooting was poor.

Your conclusion is that the lack of straight penetration is due to the first shot on the tuskless is low?

I feel that you rushed both shots with the second shot striking at a bad angle.I see alot of DR shooters rush there shots.The buff dispatching shot is at a bad angle too.I think any bullet will deflect.

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:

quote:

Originally posted by Carl Frederik Nagell:

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
I thought the bullets worked fine and the shooting was poor.

Your conclusion is that the lack of straight penetration is due to the first shot on the tuskless is low?

I feel that you rushed both shots with the second shot striking at a bad angle.I see alot of DR shooters rush there shots.The buff dispatching shot is at a bad angle too.I think any bullet will deflect.

I agree, sometimes folks rush their shots. Sometimes they even end up rushing and shooting the wrong animal, like a cow buffalo instead of a bull.

Those that live in glass houses should not throw stones.

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:

quote:

Originally posted by Carl Frederik Nagell:

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
I thought the bullets worked fine and the shooting was poor.

Your conclusion is that the lack of straight penetration is due to the first shot on the tuskless is low?

I feel that you rushed both shots with the second shot striking at a bad angle.I see alot of DR shooters rush there shots.The buff dispatching shot is at a bad angle too.I think any bullet will deflect.

Wow! You drew all of those conclusions based on a couple of photos????? Very impressive!

quote:

shootaway
one of us

Posted 09 January 2013 22:26 Hide Post
I thought

actually--No, you didn't

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:

quote:

Originally posted by Carl Frederik Nagell:

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
I thought the bullets worked fine and the shooting was poor.

Your conclusion is that the lack of straight penetration is due to the first shot on the tuskless is low?

I feel that you rushed both shots with the second shot striking at a bad angle.I see alot of DR shooters rush there shots.The buff dispatching shot is at a bad angle too.I think any bullet will deflect.

I agree, sometimes folks rush their shots. Sometimes they even end up rushing and shooting the wrong animal, like a cow buffalo instead of a bull.

Those that live in glass houses should not throw stones.

There are times when a shot should be rushed like when you are hunting with an inexperienced PH and we are facing the sun and there is a buff at 200yds and you told to shoot that one and as soon as you are getting set up,told to shoot another one and it`s too late and then the one in front of us and then it turn out to be a cow.I will have the video in a couple of days.I will post it so you can see.I believe that happened with the client just before me too.Anyways these things happen.Do they happen to you? Also,you can be sure the cow went down.

quote:

Originally posted by Carl Frederik Nagell:

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
I thought the bullets worked fine and the shooting was poor.

Your conclusion is that the lack of straight penetration is due to the first shot on the tuskless is low?

Carl,

If the first shot on the tuskless cow was low and exited under the chin we can't really say it didn't penetrate enough. The second shot was obviously way too far to the left (right side of elephants head)but that shot can be forgiven as the elephants head was moving to her left quickly. It looked like it moved its head right as you shot. Typically from what I have seen when a steel jacketed solid shows flattening near the base it means that the bullet hit a rounded bone a glancing blow. I suspect that it hit the heavy bone where the ear canal enters the bone of the head causing it to deflect.

The bullet from the frontal that found the bulls brain penetrated the amount that I would expect as you found it in the neck. That is where I have usually found Woodleigh RN solids with a SD of around 300+ and 2,150 fps velocity after frontal shots. That is more than enough penetration for a frontal shot.

It is difficult to tell the exact bullet path on your first shot on the buff from the pictures but I suspect that it hit or possibly grazed the spine on that trajectory. The other possibility is that it hit the heavy shoulder joint which is hard on any bullet.

465H&H

One more thing Mike,Richard Tabor is my PH-a real pro.

Someone's been watching too much CSI.

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:

quote:

Originally posted by Carl Frederik Nagell:

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
I thought the bullets worked fine and the shooting was poor.

Your conclusion is that the lack of straight penetration is due to the first shot on the tuskless is low?

I feel that you rushed both shots with the second shot striking at a bad angle.I see alot of DR shooters rush there shots.The buff dispatching shot is at a bad angle too.I think any bullet will deflect.

I agree, sometimes folks rush their shots. Sometimes they even end up rushing and shooting the wrong animal, like a cow buffalo instead of a bull.

Those that live in glass houses should not throw stones.

There are times when a shot should be rushed like when you are hunting with an inexperienced PH and we are facing the sun and there is a buff at 200yds and you told to shoot that one and as soon as you are getting set up,told to shoot another one and it`s too late and then the one in front of us and then it turn out to be a cow.I will have the video in a couple of days.I will post it so you can see.I believe that happened with the client just before me too.Anyways these things happen.Do they happen to you? Also,you can be sure the cow went down.

As the hunter you are responsible for the shot, blaming the shot on the distance, the sun, confusing instructions, the PH, etc. is just so much noise. You have your finger on the trigger, if you are uncomfortable with the shot or unsure of the target, it is your responsibility not to take it. Look, accidents happen but what I find offensive is someone second guessing someone else without being up front about their own issues.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:

quote:

Originally posted by Carl Frederik Nagell:

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
I thought the bullets worked fine and the shooting was poor.

Your conclusion is that the lack of straight penetration is due to the first shot on the tuskless is low?

I feel that you rushed both shots with the second shot striking at a bad angle.I see alot of DR shooters rush there shots.The buff dispatching shot is at a bad angle too.I think any bullet will deflect.

I agree, sometimes folks rush their shots. Sometimes they even end up rushing and shooting the wrong animal, like a cow buffalo instead of a bull.

Those that live in glass houses should not throw stones.

Now that's funny right there. Sadly true as well!!

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:

quote:

Originally posted by Carl Frederik Nagell:

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
I thought the bullets worked fine and the shooting was poor.

Your conclusion is that the lack of straight penetration is due to the first shot on the tuskless is low?

Carl, Pay no attention to Shootaway, he is the local "Idiot"..............

This is the one absolute correct statement on this thread that is without a doubt and not open to interpretation!

So George, you are now blaming Blake for your shooting the cow?

Carl, I apologize for the hijack of your thread. I will bow out.

I am upfront with everything.You are entitled to your opinion and I to mine.Where are the clips of your past hunts? Should I suspect you are hiding something?

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
I am upfront with everything.You are entitled to your opinion and I to mine.Where are the clips of your past hunts? Should I suspect you are hiding something?

If you are referring to me, my clips have been posted. I notice you posted everything except the shooting of the cow from yours? What are YOU hiding George?

Failures...you recovered the bullets from dead animals right?

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:

quote:

Originally posted by Carl Frederik Nagell:

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
I thought the bullets worked fine and the shooting was poor.

Your conclusion is that the lack of straight penetration is due to the first shot on the tuskless is low?

Carl, Pay no attention to Shootaway, he is the local "Idiot"..............

This is the one absolute correct statement on this thread that is without a doubt and not open to interpretation!

So George, you are now blaming Blake for your shooting the cow?

That is one of the things that I was unhappy about on my hunt with Blake,but it is no big deal.

If I told you shoot the one over there,then no that one,then no this one,then no,quick the one in front of us and you did and it turned out to be a cow.What can I say?

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
I am upfront with everything.You are entitled to your opinion and I to mine.Where are the clips of your past hunts? Should I suspect you are hiding something?

If you are referring to me, my clips have been posted. I notice you posted everything except the shooting of the cow from yours? What are YOU hiding George?

I was referring to Mike.

Carl, I apologize for the hijack as well and bow out other than to point you to the two threads I mentioned earlier.

Cheers

Any competent gunsmith can correct flat nose feeding problems in a rifle. In fact a decent home gun guy can usually do the same; I have. There is really no excuse for a rifle that will not feed and chamber a BBW#13.

CFN, thanks for sharing. And do ignore shootaway, most of us do.

Hi Frederik

Great post here- it is posts like these that get the minds thinking and generally create good and worthy discussions that result in us all been better educated hunters!

A good point was made here also- All these bullets were collected from "dead" animals so while bullet performance my be questionable the shooting certainly was not!

Frederik our hunt I must tell you again remains as one of my most memorable in my career! Thankyou !

Carl,

I do not think it is a velocity issue. You indicated that you are getting 2000 fps with your handload. That seems a little slow to me, but not unreasonable. I think the issues you experienced are simply a function of using round nose, lead core bullets. If you look at Richard Harland's book, Ndlovu, pages 70 and 74 you will see a variety of round nose bullets with certain deformations -- several of which look very similar to what you posted. With the Woodleigh round nose solids you get a bullet that has been around for a long time and has taken a lot of game. But like any bullet it has its limitations. With the flat nose bullets you get greater penetration but bullets that are still earning their pedigree so to speak. I have always used Woodleigh round nose solids for hunting elephant; however, this year I will be using Woodleigh hydro stabilized solids in my .577 and North Fork Flat Point Solids in my .500.

quote:

Originally posted by LionHunter:
Any competent gunsmith can correct flat nose feeding problems in a rifle. In fact a decent home gun guy can usually do the same; I have. There is really no excuse for a rifle that will not feed and chamber a BBW#13.

C

This comment I would have to disagree to. My gun smith who I consider is top class considered it an issue with one of my rifles, He was prepared to do it but felt it could increase the risk of failure at some time.
If I remember correctly I think even Mr Weibe recommend against them?
Even NORTHFORK were once against sending me bullets without knowing if they would feed. Perhaps due to OS posting?

There is an interesting article in the latest Game and Hunt magazine by Mauritz Coetzee on this DG bullet issue. I see Hornady featured there as well.

500nitro,
This is still a nicely done set of reports.
Thanks again.

http://www.gsgroup.co.za/johnharrisele.html
http://www.gsgroup.co.za/johnharris.html

North Fork Flat nose solids are designed to function far better and definitely cause less fouling in the barrels than all the others.

Interesting. How was this determined?