quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:
Technically speaking, yes, the PH will have ultimate responsibility. However, the point of my posts are that expecting someone other than yourself to save your bacon because you haven't prepared properly to avoid causing a mess in the first place and then to clean up your own mess once caused, is simply foolish at best, not from a legality standpoint but rather, from a self preservation standpoint.

Ametuers are just that,.. ametuers, some more willing & skilled ,some much much less.
...and even doing their personal ametuer best, is plainly sometimes just not enough.
- and thus the hunting industry caters to all.

The PH does not really know how the client will react in the field to unfolding events.

It is indeed expected of the PH to cover for any mess Ups the ametuer client may have a hand in creating.

AS an ametuer hunter I know that I can stuff up no matter how well preped In think I might be.
There may be situations where I react in ways I did not imagine I would,

some better than I imagined,...some worse than I imagined.

If a rich Texan or Russian female wants to hunt a Big Cat or Ele in Africa, but has only ever hunted deer
How much does the PH question her abilities before taking on the job?

or does he just take on the big money female client,...ie; 'suck it and see what transpires on the hunt'?

THe PH is knowingly there to cater/adjust to a great range of client skill levels,interactions and reactions,... is he not?

It is a fact that some clients are lame hunters and can & do expect a lot less from themselves and alot more from the PH....
and some conscientious pro-active clients simply find out that they needed a PH alot more than they wished or envisaged,
- but circumstances dictated they had to.

You can be a lame ametuer hunter who just pays ones money to shoot for posterity, expecting the PH to cater to your list
of failings & weaknesses,....and there are people ready to take your money for such provided services in the hunting field.


The PH would still need to be prepared to take complete care of a situation himself,
regardless of whether;

he has a lazy-ass client who wants the PH to take care of all situations, that result from poor client ability/performance,

oR he has a well skilled conscientious pro-cative client who prefers as little involvement from the PH as possible,
but who has a untimely cardiac arrest in the middle of the wounded DG hunt crisis.

So, for one reason or another, the PH can be expected to handle the same workload.

This is what I orig responded to:

quote:

Originally posted by fujotupu:

To go in the field in the company of a PH whom you have psychologically convinced yourself will do the 'mopping up' is also wrong (IMO).

and I simply stated that there are professionals [from a variety of fields] that go in the field 'psychologically convinced'
that other professionals will help 'mop up' any mistakes or errors, for whatever reason.
...Why it would be an issue for an ordinary ametuer to also be 'psychologically convinced' that a proffessional will
'mop things up' for them, - I dont really know.

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:
Any amateur pilot holding the proper rating is fully legal to fly his own plane. However, in the case of the B-707, that aircraft is certified as a 2 pilot airplane, so there does have to be another Commercial Rated pilot in the cockpit. However, Travolta is certified as Pilot In Command by possessing his ATP (Airline Transport Pilot) Type Rating in that jet. The second pilot required in the cockpit with him is only required to hold a commercial, instrument, multi-engine rating. There is NO requirement for the second in command pilot on Travolta's jet to be Type Rated. There is NO requirement for Travolta's co-pilot to be anything more than minimally qualified as a commercial, instrument, multi rated pilot with considerably less experience than Travolta.

If my information is correct,

In the time Mr. Travolta has been flying his B707, he has had an extremely high level Boeing Captain[Boeing test Pilot?]
Who's skills & experience far exceed the minimum requirements necessary for the legally required second pilot.
and whos skills & experience also far exceed anything that Travolta has accumulated.

So it appears that Travolta was not prepared to settle for a second pilot with only the minimum legal requirements.
It makes very sound sense that he chose someone of such a high[superior]level to himself, to be beside him at the controls.

For all we know Travolta may have chosen to have such a highly skilled professional there beside him,
to allow himself to be -'psychologically convinced'- that he has the best person on hand to 'mop things Up'

People often like to have the best service & support they can get, be it a PH ,Pilot,surgeon, lawyer,pit crew,etc

quote:

If a rich Texan or Russian female wants to hunt a Big Cat or Ele in Africa, but has only ever hunted deer
How much does the PH question her abilities before taking on the job?

Traz:

You are putting words into people's mouths.

A PH will take on the client regardless of their financial status or gender; could be a budget client who has saved up over the years just as much as it could be a Texas millionaire or Russian mafia tycoon.

The PH will (should) be qualified to handle any dangerous situation though obviously without any guarantee.

However, for a recoil-shy client purposely choosing the lightest legal caliber available for hunting DG and banking on the PH to take care of the situation should the shit hits the fan is not cricket!
It is neither fair to criticize nor is it intended criticism towards those who choose the minimum requirement of caliber - most choose it due to belief not the fear of recoil!

P.S. Every client who goes to Africa for the first time could be regarded as you put it: "amateur hunters" ... and to be commended for having broken the ice and embarked on one of possibly many similar adventures to come.

Most PHs will ask of their client (if they don't already know) if it is their first visit to the Dark Continent and if it is their first time to open an account with DG. They will work it out from there.

To get back to the original question, the 416 and 458 are certainly enough gun in most situations. If all goes well and easy the 375 is enough gun. If things go to hell a 700 Nitro may not be enough gun.

465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by daleW:

quote:

Posted 12 December 2012 09:49Hide Post
Enough gun is the ability to achieve success even when you screw up the shot, by just a little.

Based on that definition the 416 is, usually, enough gun.

And the 375 isn't.

Will,

According to your book "Elephant and Elephant guns" the .416 does not have nearly the KO power compared to the .458.


The best choice for elephant gun considering the 3 caliber options ( .375, .416 and .458 ) is the .458 based on KO power. Although the .416 has the greatest penetration index of the 3 choices...the .458 is far superior elephant gun.

I was talking about the minimum caliber I would be comfortable with hunting elephant. I didn't have any desire to lug around a heavy rifle and a 416 Taylor can be made quite light.

I also made a lightweight 458 WM but never got a chance to ding any elephants with it. For pure knockdown I would pick the 458 WM of the three choices. A 458 WM can knockdown a wounded bull pretty convincingly.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
Any rifle you can handle well.

I have shot elephants with a 375H&H, 416 Weatherby, 416 Rigby Improved and 375/404.

They all died!

A voice of reason!

It's not the point but some will never realize it.

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
It's not the point but some will never realize it.

What do you mean? Are you saying that you should prepare for the worst for Elephant and use something like a 458, even when combined with some plains game? Ir bring two rifles, one for PG and one for DG?

quote:

Originally posted by LionHunter:

If you haven't hunted both Ele and Buff more than a few times your opinion has no basis in fact and is exactly that, an opinion.

So LionHunter by your very logic Bell's opinion that the small calibres with a nice heavy solid most definitely has basis in fact and is not just "an opinion"? After all Bell meets your criteria, he shot 1100 or more elephants plus hundreds of buffalo and untold other dangerous game with his 6.5's, 7mm's , 303's and 318's and found these cartridges entirely suitable.

Oh yes I can hear it coming before I even finish typing this post, "but Bell was an exception". Was he, is he? there must be plenty others in the world today who could emulate him given the same opportunity. Some of those who have only shot one elephant or one buffalo could be amongst the coolest, calmest and most accurate shots in the world today and find a 375 or something smaller just ideal for DG.

Careful we don't dumb everyone down to the lowest denominator.

I find these threads tiresome. So why even post again you ask, because it is late, I have had a glass of wine and I have no better sense.

Use whatever you want. Want to hunt elephant with a .22, go for it, a 7x57, knock yourself out. I get so tired of folks talking about how a pellet gun with a well fired shot will kill any animal walking on earth. Personally, I am going to carry the biggest damn rifle I can shoot decently. I have never seen someone post that when they made the approach on an elephant and it turned to face them at 20 yards that they felt over gunned and wished they had gone with a smaller caliber because they were the coolest, calmest and most accurate shot in the world.

I have got to learn to not even open these threads . . . or to limit myself to one post and move on.

Come now Mike you enjoy it

Hope it's a good quality wine you are enjoying and not an el cheapo trade wine

I have had the pleasure of a drink with Mr Jines, and having had to explain the tab later, can assure you.... he does not drink the cheap stuff!!!

quote:

Originally posted by eagle27:

quote:

Originally posted by LionHunter:

If you haven't hunted both Ele and Buff more than a few times your opinion has no basis in fact and is exactly that, an opinion.

So LionHunter by your very logic Bell's opinion that the small calibres with a nice heavy solid most definitely has basis in fact and is not just "an opinion"? After all Bell meets your criteria, he shot 1100 or more elephants plus hundreds of buffalo and untold other dangerous game with his 6.5's, 7mm's , 303's and 318's and found these cartridges entirely suitable.

BELLS vast depth of empirical evidence far outweighs anything anyone can post to the contrary here.
add to that the substantial empirical evidence based findings-reported from MR.Selbys 53 full seasons of PH duties in Africa,
....that point toward a medium bore being the better choice for many an ametuer DG hunter.

At either end of the spectrum you have competent individuals like Bell with his 6.5-7mm...and the other end,
individuals who can handle the BigBores competently enough.

quote:

I find these threads tiresome.

Yes counseler; I concur.

can we ensure huntable wildlife populations for generations to come? This is an effort worth pursuing.

quote:

Originally posted by MikeE:
I have had the pleasure of a drink with Mr Jines, and having had to explain the tab later, can assure you.... he does not drink the cheap stuff!!!

Yes I most assuredly knew his choice in wine would likely match his fine choice of guns.

quote:

Bell's opinion that the small calibres with a nice heavy solid most definitely has basis in fact and is not just "an opinion"? After all Bell meets your criteria, he shot 1100 or more elephants plus hundreds of buffalo and untold other dangerous game with his 6.5's, 7mm's , 303's and 318's and found these cartridges entirely suitable.

Pointless always bringing up such examples of historical figures. One should also remember that in Bell's days the land was was less populated, hardly any poaching by today's standards (what little was poached was for consumption)and the game populations in general were by far greater than what they are today.

This scenario made for easy hunting as the game was far more relaxed than what it is today. Remember there were no Jeeps, Cruisers and God Forbid, Land Rovers.
It was a hunter's paradise!....Period.

fujotupu-

While you and I sometimes disagree, I commend your reply above; you are spot on!

I get very tired of the likes of eagle27 and Trax regurgitating the Bell example. Things in africa have changed dramatically since Bell's hunting days and these changes have had a dramatic impact on hunting DG in particular.

Early in my african experience I hunted with young PH's who had substantially less hunting experience than I, including DG experience. After my second experience with such I began to specify my desire to hunt with an "older" (read experienced) PH.

Perhaps Trax would like to define at what point an "amateur" becomes an experienced african hunter? I have not required a follow-up shot by a PH, other than on running Buff, on safaris, which have included multiple head of all 7 species of DG animals. Whoever my PH might be, he and I hunt as a team, along with the native trackers, using his expertise on the terrain and animal behavior combined with my skill as an experienced hunter and marksman. The same is true when I hunt New Zealand, Canada or any other country. And please remember that a PH carries his rifle a helluva lot more than he shoots it, unlike most AR members.

So,,,,,, if the elephant are more relaxed, the small caliber FMJ will penetrate better? Or is it that the elephant are in a constant state of jumping up and down and side to side since they are so angry with today's hunters and shot placement is always going to be off? I agree that I would prefer over .40 caliber for elephant since I'm not so brave, however, small caliber solids have indeed killed elephant with penetration through the entire skull and out the other side. There's no argument here. Small caliber solids will kill elephant. Hunting them in thick brush would be best with something real big since most of us can't shoot nearly as accurately as someone like the old timers who shot thousands. It's shot placement and penetration and everyone knows it.

Thanks,

jfm

quote:

Originally posted by LionHunter:
I get very tired of the likes of eagle27 and Trax regurgitating the Bell example. Things in africa have changed dramatically since Bell's hunting days and these changes have had a dramatic impact on hunting DG in particular.

As much as you dont like to hear about Mr.Bells exploits,
there are accounts where he brained[with his 7x57] groups of elephants coming for him that were intent on doing him damage.
If Bell was around in his prime today, would you doubt his ability to proficiently do the same thing?
Whats different about a group of angry Pachyderms coming for you today - as opposed to Bells era?

quote:

Originally posted by LionHunter:
Early in my african experience I hunted with young PH's who had substantially less hunting experience than I, including DG experience. After my second experience with such I began to specify my desire to hunt with an "older" (read experienced) PH.

like you, Gail Selby had the good fortune of being guided by a older well experienced PH,..that being her father Harry Selby.

1973, 14 yrs old Gail used Bells Rigby 7x57-175gn solid, to take this Bull.



No the 7x57 on DG is not for everyone,...only for those who have got what it takes.

and BigBores are not the best choice for every client who hunts DG.

Harry Selbys accounts based on several decades of PH duties, have testified to that.
His experience[as well as that of other PHs] showed that a medium bore resulted in more profficient shooting by clients,
ie; cleaner quicker kills on DG,..resulting in less incidences requiring the dangerous follow-up on wounded game.
When experienced PHs are recommending the client use a .375 over a thumping BigBore,..
I highly suspect its for sound sensible pragmatic reasons.

I completely agree with Mike. In October 2011 I shot my first two bulls at 15 yards and 11 years. In the thick mopani forest with maximum visibility about 20 yards...with the bulls mixed in with the cows and calves....my 416 rigby felt like like pellet rifle. When I got back home I did two things, started planning my next elephant hunt and started looking for a bigger rifle.

By the way, the 416 Rigby performed brilliantly. Both bulls went straight down and without taking a step. I still want a bigger rifle. Use a 7x57 if you like, I want a 450 Rigby or 500 Jeffery or maybe a 500 Nitro.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
I find these threads tiresome. So why even post again you ask, because it is late, I have had a glass of wine and I have no better sense.

Use whatever you want. Want to hunt elephant with a .22, go for it, a 7x57, knock yourself out. I get so tired of folks talking about how a pellet gun with a well fired shot will kill any animal walking on earth. Personally, I am going to carry the biggest damn rifle I can shoot decently. I have never seen someone post that when they made the approach on an elephant and it turned to face them at 20 yards that they felt over gunned and wished they had gone with a smaller caliber because they were the coolest, calmest and most accurate shot in the world.

I have got to learn to not even open these threads . . . or to limit myself to one post and move on.

quote:

Originally posted by LionHunter:
fujotupu-

While you and I sometimes disagree, I commend your reply above; you are spot on!

I get very tired of the likes of eagle27 and Trax regurgitating the Bell example. Things in africa have changed dramatically since Bell's hunting days and these changes have had a dramatic impact on hunting DG in particular.

Early in my african experience I hunted with young PH's who had substantially less hunting experience than I, including DG experience. After my second experience with such I began to specify my desire to hunt with an "older" (read experienced) PH.

Perhaps Trax would like to define at what point an "amateur" becomes an experienced african hunter? I have not required a follow-up shot by a PH, other than on running Buff, on safaris, which have included multiple head of all 7 species of DG animals. Whoever my PH might be, he and I hunt as a team, along with the native trackers, using his expertise on the terrain and animal behavior combined with my skill as an experienced hunter and marksman. The same is true when I hunt New Zealand, Canada or any other country. And please remember that a PH carries his rifle a helluva lot more than he shoots it, unlike most AR members.

I don't apologise for "regurgitating the Bell example", you should have read your post a bit more carefully as you seem to have missed the point of mine. By your very own assertion that for one to be listened to and have an opinion based on fact one must have shot more than a few of both ele and buffalo. I only pointed out that Bell fits your criteria for have an opinion based on fact. If you don't like that then tough, be a little more careful of your assertions. I was not advocating using those small calibres as Bell did, in fact I would not, I would be using my 404 as I have on more than one or two buffalo.

While I would not attempt to emulate Bell, I get somewhat annoyed when those of today who have shot very few DG seem to think that DG have assumed some magical powers and toughness that were not around early last century and that Bell, or for that matter some even seem to infer that Selby, would not be up to the super powered DG we face today. As others have quickly pointed out here, Bell did face a lot of ele charges in his lifetime and I'm sure the buffalo and other DG game he hunted reacted exactly the same as they do today. Lets not denigrate those who have more experience than possibly all AR members put together and lets not hype up the game to make our own prowess look larger than life.

Bell began hunting africa 110 years ago (1902) and was finished approximately 90 years ago. None of us were alive during that time.

Bell could not hunt africa today as he did 100 years ago, nor could he legally use the firearms he used then. Trying to compare his exploits to hunting in todays africa is like trying to compare the Wright brothers first powered aircraft (1903) to the space shuttle (1981-2011).

When Harry Selby began his career as a PH circa 1947 (65 years ago) safaris were 20-30 minimum days or longer and included a "full bag" in Tanzania. The 458wm wasn't even available commercially until 1956. When he moved to Bechuanaland - now Botswana - in 1962, safaris were still month long events. By the time he ceased conducting safaris at age 75 in 2000, the 7-10-14 day safari for enumerated species was the norm. The 458Lott and 416RM did not even become commercially available until 1989 and were the leading edge of the resurgence of large bore DG cartridges and contributed to the resurrection of the old african large bore double rifle and bolt action cartridges. These developments have only occurred within the past 22 years, of which Harry has been retired for the last 12. So how often did Harry actually have a client come out with a large bore for him to compare to the 375?

Only 30% of the respondents to this survey chose the 375 while 70% selected one of the two larger caliber options. While I have killed Ele and other DG with the 375, I find it marginal or, as CB says, "adequate". I prefer, and have used for the past 15 years, something more than adequate when hunting animals at close range who are fully capable of killing you when things go wrong. And as I've said here before, hunt DG long enough and things will go wrong.

However, I really don't care what someone else uses to hunt Ele, so use your 375 or 7x57 or 22LR as you wish. Just don't try to convince me that it is the best choice or anything more than "adequate".

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
My vote, the .458. The beauty of the .458 is the wide range of bullets available for it. Load some 500 grain bullets for the ele and buffalo and some 350 grain bullets for the plains game. Very flexible.

I think you will find that if you load each bullet to a reasonable velocity--say 2200 for the 500 grain and 2700 for the 350 grain--you will get about a 6" elevation difference at 100 yards, with the 500 grain being HIGHER. No one wants to fiddle with such sight changes while in the bush. Better to use a .375 with 300 grain bullets for everything.

No one has asked the obvious question of Hunter54. Why would you limit yourself to only one rifle for this hunt? It is hardly more difficult to take two rather than one rifle. In thirteen safaris, I have never taken less than two rifles. I would take my 458 bolt or 470 double and a 375 bolt gun. Problem solved.

465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
No one has asked the obvious question of Hunter54. Why would you limit yourself to only one rifle for this hunt? It is hardly more difficult to take two rather than one rifle. In thirteen safaris, I have never taken less than two rifles. I would take my 458 bolt or 470 double and a 375 bolt gun. Problem solved.

465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by Indy:

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
My vote, the .458. The beauty of the .458 is the wide range of bullets available for it. Load some 500 grain bullets for the ele and buffalo and some 350 grain bullets for the plains game. Very flexible.

I think you will find that if you load each bullet to a reasonable velocity--say 2200 for the 500 grain and 2700 for the 350 grain--you will get about a 6" elevation difference at 100 yards, with the 500 grain being HIGHER. No one wants to fiddle with such sight changes while in the bush. Better to use a .375 with 300 grain bullets for everything.

Why "fiddle" with anything? Scope in QD mounts sighted for the 350gr bullets, and open sights for the 500gr slugs. I have mine set up this way and it works great. Here at home the scope lives on the gun, and I've taken a couple of coyotes with 350gr ammo. When/if I go to collect my elephant, the gun will be loaded with 500gr stuff, and the scope and a few 350gr loads will ride along in a pocket, in case a 'yote shows up.

quote:

Originally posted by eagle27:
..While I would not attempt to emulate Bell, I get somewhat annoyed when those of today who have shot very few DG seem to think that DG have assumed some magical powers and toughness that were not around early last century and that Bell, or for that matter some even seem to infer that Selby, would not be up to the super powered DG we face today. As others have quickly pointed out here, Bell did face a lot of ele charges in his lifetime and I'm sure the buffalo and other DG game he hunted reacted exactly the same as they do today. Lets not denigrate those who have more experience than possibly all AR members put together and lets not hype up the game to make our own prowess look larger than life.

...

quote:

Originally posted by LionHunter:
Bell could not hunt africa today as he did 100 years ago, nor could he legally use the firearms he used then. Trying to compare his exploits to hunting in todays africa is like trying to compare the Wright brothers first powered aircraft (1903) to the space shuttle (1981-2011).

Obvious are the vast-immense technological and performances advances between the Wrights aircraft 1903 and Space shuttle 2011

Would you would be kind enough to point out the difference between a mob of angry charging Pachyderms in 1903 as opposed to 2011..?

Bells 7x57 worked splendidly for him some 100yr ago, It worked just fine for Gail Selby in 1973,
- any reason why it would not be as effective today in the correct hands?

“Speaking personally, my greatest successes have been obtained with the 7 mm Rigby-Mauser (.275 Rigby)... It seemed to show a remarkable aptitude for finding the brain of an elephant.” - W.D.M. ‘Karamojo’ Bell

Unchanged anatomical structure and laws of physics- say, the 7x57 is capable of exactly the same thing today.

quote:

Originally posted by LionHunter:
So how often did Harry actually have a client come out with a large bore for him to compare to the 375?

Often enough that both H.Selby and the other experienced PHs that Harry knew of during his career,
...ended up recommending the .375 to clients over the BigBore thumpers.
By those PH accounts and experiences, the clients often shot more profficiently with the medium bore.
which meant the PHs had less follow-Up work on wounded DG....this was what they discovered during their PH duties/careers.

No doubt the larger .416 Rigby worked well for Selby , because he was proficient with it,
but found he had to use it less when clients used a medium bore over a BigBore.
Harry used his .416 for several decades, and never saw the need to replace it with another .470 Rigby double.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Texas Blue Devil:
I completely agree with Mike. In October 2011 I shot my first two bulls at 15 yards and 11 years. In the thick mopani forest with maximum visibility about 20 yards...with the bulls mixed in with the cows and calves....my 416 rigby felt like like pellet rifle. When I got back home I did two things, started planning my next elephant hunt and started looking for a bigger rifle.

By the way, the 416 Rigby performed brilliantly. Both bulls went straight down and without taking a step. I still want a bigger rifle. Use a 7x57 if you like, I want a 450 Rigby or 500 Jeffery or maybe a 500 Nitro.[QUOTE]

With all due respect I find your post quite illogical. You firstly tell us of what must have been a great close in hunt of two bull elephant using your 416 Rigby which you said "performed brilliantly, both bulls going straight down and without taking a step", then the illogical bit comes where your 416 felt like a pellet rifle and once back home you started looking for a bigger rifle.

Has fear taken hold of your senses? Take some credit for being skilled and calm enough to place your bullet exactly where it should be for a killing shot on both bulls. What makes you think you would do better with a bigger gun?

Has it occurred to you that your success on dropping those bulls so emphatically could very well be because you are using a time tested medium bore that you are comfortable with and skilled with, and not because you should have had a large heavy hitter and kicker.

Trust and back yourself and your 416 Rigby there is no magical pot of gold.

quote:

Originally posted by eagle27:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Texas Blue Devil:
I completely agree with Mike. In October 2011 I shot my first two bulls at 15 yards and 11 years. In the thick mopani forest with maximum visibility about 20 yards...with the bulls mixed in with the cows and calves....my 416 rigby felt like like pellet rifle. When I got back home I did two things, started planning my next elephant hunt and started looking for a bigger rifle.

By the way, the 416 Rigby performed brilliantly. Both bulls went straight down and without taking a step. I still want a bigger rifle. Use a 7x57 if you like, I want a 450 Rigby or 500 Jeffery or maybe a 500 Nitro.[QUOTE]

With all due respect I find your post quite illogical. You firstly tell us of what must have been a great close in hunt of two bull elephant using your 416 Rigby which you said "performed brilliantly, both bulls going straight down and without taking a step", then the illogical bit comes where your 416 felt like a pellet rifle and once back home you started looking for a bigger rifle.

Has fear taken hold of your senses? Take some credit for being skilled and calm enough to place your bullet exactly where it should be for a killing shot on both bulls. What makes you think you would do better with a bigger gun?

Has it occurred to you that your success on dropping those bulls so emphatically could very well be because you are using a time tested medium bore that you are comfortable with and skilled with, and not because you should have had a large heavy hitter and kicker.

Trust and back yourself and your 416 Rigby there is no magical pot of gold.

Truly spoken by someone who has not been there and done that!! Get up close and personal to ole Jumbo and see if you don't want a bigger gun as well. Eagle, since you and I have debated Buzz's video's in the past, just go back and take a look at those DVDs again and count the times you hear Buzz, who has a hell of a lot of experience with eles up close and personal, state that he needed a larger rifle than his 416 Rigby. In fact, as I've pointed out previously, you don't see many PHs switching to smaller rifles, but rather larger. In fact, Buzz is now hunting with a new Hyem, 500NE DR! And BTW, he has never advised me to bring the 375 instead of the large thumper! Just the opposite!

Todd
It would be an insult for Buzz to suggest you bring something smaller than your double 500. Your 500 in your hands and the bullet in the right place will do the job admirably just as TBD's 416 did it for him as he has related.

Yes we have debated Buzz's video, me just from the point of view of what I saw in it in terms of the guns used and although Buzz or yourself may not have intended it to be an advocate for use of a large bore double gun, from memory the thread was started with the question of what was best or more suitable for DG.

What I saw and what you have told of that day was almost instantaneous hits from Buzz's 416 and your 500, missing the brain but bringing the elephant down momentarily, your second from the double going too high on the already falling animal. Then the elephant got straight up and fortunately hightailed it away from you both. Buzz carried on shooting while you had an empty gun. I understand you then were able to get back into the action and the animal was finally brought down after several more shots.

Did this show that the big bore double proved itself better than Buzz's 416 or indeed TBD's 416 on his two bulls. I think not. What would have happened if that elephant had charged when it regained it's feet instead of running away? Yes Buzz may have felt that at that stage he needed a bigger bore as he was the only one still loaded but the reality was a double hit from the 500 had already not put the animal down for good.

Point taken that I'm one that hasn't been there, but meaning what? I would be frightened enough to have to go out and go bigger than my 404? I have mixed it with more than a few oz buffalo including cows and calves at very close quarters and who are known to be aggressive and dangerous when separated and this while our 'PH' most times remained at his vehicle. I never once doubted the ability of the 404 to get the job done or my own ability to put the bullet where effective. But for money I would long ago have mixed it in Africa and could think of nothing better than to return the 404 to Africa where it came from. Furtherest from my mind would be a need to go bigger.

quote:

Originally posted by eagle27:
Todd
It would be an insult for Buzz to suggest you bring something smaller than your double 500. Your 500 in your hands and the bullet in the right place will do the job admirably just as TBD's 416 did it for him as he has related.

Yes we have debated Buzz's video, me just from the point of view of what I saw in it in terms of the guns used and although Buzz or yourself may not have intended it to be an advocate for use of a large bore double gun, from memory the thread was started with the question of what was best or more suitable for DG.

What I saw and what you have told of that day was almost instantaneous hits from Buzz's 416 and your 500, missing the brain but bringing the elephant down momentarily, your second from the double going too high on the already falling animal. Then the elephant got straight up and fortunately hightailed it away from you both. Buzz carried on shooting while you had an empty gun. I understand you then were able to get back into the action and the animal was finally brought down after several more shots.

Did this show that the big bore double proved itself better than Buzz's 416 or indeed TBD's 416 on his two bulls. I think not. What would have happened if that elephant had charged when it regained it's feet instead of running away? Yes Buzz may have felt that at that stage he needed a bigger bore as he was the only one still loaded but the reality was a double hit from the 500 had already not put the animal down for good.

Point taken that I'm one that hasn't been there, but meaning what? I would be frightened enough to have to go out and go bigger than my 404? I have mixed it with more than a few oz buffalo including cows and calves at very close quarters and who are known to be aggressive and dangerous when separated and this while our 'PH' most times remained at his vehicle. I never once doubted the ability of the 404 to get the job done or my own ability to put the bullet where effective. But for money I would long ago have mixed it in Africa and could think of nothing better than to return the 404 to Africa where it came from. Furtherest from my mind would be a need to go bigger.

I think you have me confused with Mike Jines!! And no, the clip with Mike Jines is not the specific scene where Buzz states words to the effect that "If I had been shooting a larger gun".

However, what you do find is that guys who get up close with eles in the thick jesse with a 375 or 416 often switch to a larger gun AND take the time to learn how to handle it correctly.

Like you, I've mixed it up with buff as well but I'll also agree, they haven't made me feel a compelling desire to go up in caliber over the 416. However, eles up close do! But to your post above, Mike's 500 PROVED the value of the 500 in its ability to knock the ele down without hitting the brain. What if it did charge upon getting up? Well ... shoot it again, and he would probably have been able to take more careful aim at that point. But the initial shots were a life and death situation where the charge had to be STOPPED, finishing it off can come after the charge is stopped. However, I will also state that it doesn't seem to be the norm for a charging ele that has just been stopped with a near brain miss, to get up and charge again. If they do make it to their feet, they tend to run and shy away from a continued fight. Your claim of Mike's gun being empty is simply a result of the edit as he quickly reloaded. It just didn't survive the edit. I've edited quite a few clips at this point and it's easy to miss or drop the reload unless specifically making the effort to include it. We've been over this before. The video evidence is indisputable. The 500 stopped the charge without hitting the brain, then Buzz's rifle fired! The two shots were close but the cow was on her way down after the 500! But, it wasn't me in that video!

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by eagle27:
Todd
It would be an insult for Buzz to suggest you bring something smaller than your double 500. Your 500 in your hands and the bullet in the right place will do the job admirably just as TBD's 416 did it for him as he has related.

Yes we have debated Buzz's video, me just from the point of view of what I saw in it in terms of the guns used and although Buzz or yourself may not have intended it to be an advocate for use of a large bore double gun, from memory the thread was started with the question of what was best or more suitable for DG.

What I saw and what you have told of that day was almost instantaneous hits from Buzz's 416 and your 500, missing the brain but bringing the elephant down momentarily, your second from the double going too high on the already falling animal. Then the elephant got straight up and fortunately hightailed it away from you both. Buzz carried on shooting while you had an empty gun. I understand you then were able to get back into the action and the animal was finally brought down after several more shots.

Did this show that the big bore double proved itself better than Buzz's 416 or indeed TBD's 416 on his two bulls. I think not. What would have happened if that elephant had charged when it regained it's feet instead of running away? Yes Buzz may have felt that at that stage he needed a bigger bore as he was the only one still loaded but the reality was a double hit from the 500 had already not put the animal down for good.

Point taken that I'm one that hasn't been there, but meaning what? I would be frightened enough to have to go out and go bigger than my 404? I have mixed it with more than a few oz buffalo including cows and calves at very close quarters and who are known to be aggressive and dangerous when separated and this while our 'PH' most times remained at his vehicle. I never once doubted the ability of the 404 to get the job done or my own ability to put the bullet where effective. But for money I would long ago have mixed it in Africa and could think of nothing better than to return the 404 to Africa where it came from. Furtherest from my mind would be a need to go bigger.

I think you have me confused with Mike Jines!! And no, the clip with Mike Jines is not the specific scene where Buzz states words to the effect that "If I had been shooting a larger gun".

However, what you do find is that guys who get up close with eles in the thick jesse with a 375 or 416 often switch to a larger gun AND take the time to learn how to handle it correctly.

Like you, I've mixed it up with buff as well but I'll also agree, they haven't made me feel a compelling desire to go up in caliber over the 416. However, eles up close do! But to your post above, Mike's 500 PROVED the value of the 500 in its ability to knock the ele down without hitting the brain. What if it did charge upon getting up? Well ... shoot it again, and he would probably have been able to take more careful aim at that point. But the initial shots were a life and death situation where the charge had to be STOPPED, finishing it off can come after the charge is stopped. However, I will also state that it doesn't seem to be the norm for a charging ele that has just been stopped with a near brain miss, to get up and charge again. If they do make it to their feet, they tend to run and shy away from a continued fight. Your claim of Mike's gun being empty is simply a result of the edit as he quickly reloaded. It just didn't survive the edit. I've edited quite a few clips at this point and it's easy to miss or drop the reload unless specifically making the effort to include it. We've been over this before. The video evidence is indisputable. The 500 stopped the charge without hitting the brain, then Buzz's rifle fired! The two shots were close but the cow was on her way down after the 500! But, it wasn't me in that video!

Must be getting too old, yes was Mike's video I
was referring too, my error in confusing you with that video. I suppose the shear bulk and height of an elephant up close is imposing and gets the heart pounding with nagging thoughts of adequacy of self and gun in these situations. I wonder which is more dangerous though, buff or ele.

Anyway I'm off tomorrow for a day's hunting, most of the day for a chamois and an evening shot for deer. I know my 6.5-06 will be plenty for these game animals, but I'll still have to get that shot placed properly, if I do get to shoot.

Hope you have a good New Year next week seen in with a few good wines and dreaming of that next big one you will line up on

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
A 458 WM can knockdown a wounded bull pretty convincingly.

Will, do you share the same opinion for the 450NE 3/14"? jorge

Eagle,

I think you did hit on it. The size and bulk does make an impression. As for as which is more dangerous between ele and buff, well that's another of those nagging questions that will never have a satisfactory answer. My personal opinion is that the ele is more likely to charge but is easily stopped. Buff is less likely to charge, at least unwounded, but much harder to stop. I think the buff requires much more precise shooting to stop a charge. PHs opinions on this issue would be much more valuable than mine.

Good luck on you chamois hunt! I also hope you have a good New Year.

quote:

Originally posted by jorge:

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
A 458 WM can knockdown a wounded bull pretty convincingly.

Will, do you share the same opinion for the 450NE 3/14"? jorge

Same bullet at the same velocity.

Talk about a thread gone off track!

With that in mind, I only have one thing to contribute toward answering the original post. What caliber has probably been used to kill more elephants in all African countries than any other? Keep in mind, I'm talking sport hunting and culling use, not indiscriminate poaching with AKs.

I would suggest that the .375 H&H has probably killed more elephants than any other caliber, and more than most of the rest combined. Many game departments use the .375 as their primary caliber for control work.

quote:

Originally posted by DLS:
Talk about a thread gone off track!

With that in mind, I only have one thing to contribute toward answering the original post. What caliber has probably been used to kill more elephants in all African countries than any other?

Wouldn't that be the .404? Not even one of the original choices in the poll...

Trax-

Still waiting for you to define your use of the term "ametuer DG hunter". And please tell us at what point one may matriculate to become an experienced DG hunter.

While charging elephants may be no different now than 110 years ago, calibers, cartridges, bullets and powders have made vast improvements in performance during that time. I do think Ele today will charge based upon learned interaction with native encroachment, foresters, poachers and hunters over the past 100 years that those hunted by your idol Bell had not experienced.

I have taken note of your proclivity to argue rather than debate and to conveniently choose what you reply to. BTW please share with us how many Ele you have killed with a 7x57mm, as I'm sure all your fans here would like to know.

And what country did Miss Selby shoot her 1973 Ele in when she used the 7x57? The picture portrays a rather flat and open looking area. I wonder if her Poppa would have allowed the same rifle in his child's hands had she been required to enter into the thick of the jess searching for her beastie.

Although you have been called an assclown and worse by others on AR in the past, I try not to engage in name calling. I am, however, done with you as I find you to be an incredible bore. And you will now join a select few individuals on my IGNORE list. If you care to continue this discussion FTF I will be in attendance at both DSC and SCI, as usual. No need to reply here as I won't see it, but PM me for details if you are interested.

quote:

Originally posted by LionHunter:
Trax-
Still waiting for you to define your use of the term "ametuer DG hunter". And please tell us at what point one may matriculate to become an experienced DG hunter.

Lets just say there are ametuers who are more experienced than other ametuers,
and there be PHs who are more experienced than other PHs.
[experience being a relative thing]

quote:

Originally posted by LionHunter:
.. Whoever my PH might be, he and I hunt as a team, along with the native trackers, using his expertise on the terrain and animal behavior combined with my skill as an experienced hunter and marksman.

LH told us he is an experienced hunter, so why is he asking me what it takes to become such?..
At what point did he consider himself better than some of his PHs?
How many heads of DG did it require for LH to become so experienced,
.. that it now counts for more than what BELL and SELBY have done[and reported on] from their rather extensive[ eight decades combined] professional careers?

quote:

Originally posted by LionHunter:
And what country did Miss Selby shoot her 1973 Ele in when she used the 7x57? The picture portrays a rather flat and open looking area. I wonder if her Poppa would have allowed the same rifle in his child's hands had she been required to enter into the thick of the jess searching for her beastie.

I can only speculate what rifle Harry would have suggested for Gail to use in the thick Jess,
You seriously think he might have suggested a 14yr old girl use a .458 bolt or 470 double?
What chambering do you suggest for a 14 y.o. girl persueing Ele in the thick stuff?

quote:

Originally posted by LionHunter:
BTW please share with us how many Ele you have killed with a 7x57mm, as I'm sure all your fans here would like to know.

Elephants killed by Trax with 7x57...= None

Space shuttles flown by Trax....= None

Yep, Its a fact,-there are people who have proven most proficient and much better suited, to both specific tasks than Trax.

It a shame that LionHunter cannot also humble himself to conceed to Bell,Selbys and other well experienced PHs
vast-indepth professional career based findings, concerning the effectiveness & suitability of medium bores for DG.

BELL hunted for 30yrs and took 1000 Ele and 700 Buffalo, prior to that tally, at aged 17 he was employed to despatched problematic Lions for Uganda Rail using a single shot 303...before moving on to be employed to shoot game to supply meat for Dawson City.

SELBY was a PH for 53 full seasons in Africa, and a most profficient and respected one at that.
He experienced the long haul 'full experience' safaris with vehicle/horseback as well as the transition to the more modern 'speedier' guided Safaris emerging in the 1950s, when hunting became much more popular & accessable to more people,
- a good number of them being rather inexperienced with bigBores.
Hunting areas were now being formed into block systems where you now had to reserve them months in advance, or be allocated 'concessions', to run your Safari business from.
The traditional mobile safari was gradually on its way out in the East African countries where it had originated. Border controls on individuals, vehicles, equipment, and firearms, and the transfer of funds between newly independent states became a problem.
The hunting became intensive because of the short time available and the PH came under considerable more pressure to “produce”.
Selby operated under such growing demands by people,pressure on game and changes to the industry, for a number of decades.

From the above, we find that;

- Bell, a highly skilled pro on DG- achieved his greatest success with a medium bore,
- Selby and other well experienced PHs of his era discovered that medium bores helped the new higher volume influx of lesser experienced safari clients on the more modern safari,
to be more proficient shooters, which resulted in quicker DG kills,which made DG hunting safer for both client and PH.
-Selby had a .416 since 1949 and never found the need to go back to a larger .470 double.

quote:

Originally posted by LionHunter:
While charging elephants may be no different now than 110 years ago, calibers, cartridges, bullets and powders have made vast improvements in performance during that time.

Indeed, and those improvements to powders and bullets have benefited a whole range of bore sizes.

quote:

Originally posted by LionHunter:
your idol Bell

Idol is your fantasical choice of words, not mine.
However I do respect and acknowledge the ability and achievements of the master at his game.
as did Townsend Whelen and Harry Selby.
something which your self aggrandising ego does not allow you to do.

quote:

Originally posted by LionHunter:
I am, however, done with you as I find you to be an incredible bore.

I can fully understand that the broader perspective-more knowledgable sobering truth, would bore someone like LH,
who is primarily focused on self aggrandising-telling the forum how good he is.
LH finds it hard to cope with being shadowed by Bells,Selbys and other vast in-depth proffesional careers-accumulated skills,knowledge & experience.
It is apparent that LH ignorance well proceeds the hunting experience he has.

Based on my reading in African Hunter and Successful Hunter of stories by PHs who live in Africa, more Elephants have been killed by 7.62 NATO FMJs fired from FN semi automatics than any other, perhaps all other cartridges. Hardly a "first choice", but if that is what you are issued, that is what you use.
That said, the old rule of thumb of a 400 gr, 40 caliber bullet @ 2000-2200 fps appears to be a successful choice for many decades.