quote:

Originally posted by Trax:

quote:

Originally posted by LionHunter:
Trax-
Still waiting for you to define your use of the term "ametuer DG hunter". And please tell us at what point one may matriculate to become an experienced DG hunter.

Lets just say there are ametuers who are more experienced than other ametuers,
and there be PHs who are more experienced than other PHs.
[experience being a relative thing]

quote:

Originally posted by LionHunter:
.. Whoever my PH might be, he and I hunt as a team, along with the native trackers, using his expertise on the terrain and animal behavior combined with my skill as an experienced hunter and marksman.

LH told us he is an experienced hunter, so why is he asking me what it takes to become such?..
At what point did he consider himself better than some of his PHs?
How many heads of DG did it require for LH to become so experienced,
.. that it now counts for more than what BELL and SELBY have done[and reported on] from their rather extensive[ eight decades combined] professional careers?

quote:

Originally posted by LionHunter:
And what country did Miss Selby shoot her 1973 Ele in when she used the 7x57? The picture portrays a rather flat and open looking area. I wonder if her Poppa would have allowed the same rifle in his child's hands had she been required to enter into the thick of the jess searching for her beastie.

I can only speculate what rifle Harry would have suggested for Gail to use in the thick Jess,
You seriously think he might have suggested a 14yr old girl use a .458 bolt or 470 double?
What chambering do you suggest for a 14 y.o. girl persueing Ele in the thick stuff?

quote:

Originally posted by LionHunter:
BTW please share with us how many Ele you have killed with a 7x57mm, as I'm sure all your fans here would like to know.

Elephants killed by Trax with 7x57...= None

Space shuttles flown by Trax....= None

Yep, Its a fact,-there are people who have proven most proficient and much better suited, to both specific tasks than Trax.

It a shame that LionHunter cannot also humble himself to conceed to Bell,Selbys and other well experienced PHs
vast-indepth professional career based findings, concerning the effectiveness & suitability of medium bores for DG.

BELL hunted for 30yrs and took 1000 Ele and 700 Buffalo, prior to that tally, at aged 17 he was employed to despatched problematic Lions for Uganda Rail using a single shot 303...before moving on to be employed to shoot game to supply meat for Dawson City.

SELBY was a PH for 53 full seasons in Africa, and a most profficient and respected one at that.
He experienced the long haul 'full experience' safaris with vehicle/horseback as well as the transition to the more modern 'speedier' guided Safaris emerging in the 1950s, when hunting became much more popular & accessable to more people,
- a good number of them being rather inexperienced with bigBores.
Hunting areas were now being formed into block systems where you now had to reserve them months in advance, or be allocated 'concessions', to run your Safari business from.
The traditional mobile safari was gradually on its way out in the East African countries where it had originated. Border controls on individuals, vehicles, equipment, and firearms, and the transfer of funds between newly independent states became a problem.
The hunting became intensive because of the short time available and the PH came under considerable more pressure to “produce”.
Selby operated under such growing demands by people,pressure on game and changes to the industry, for a number of decades.

From the above, we find that;

- Bell, a highly skilled pro on DG- achieved his greatest success with a medium bore,
- Selby and other well experienced PHs of his era discovered that medium bores helped the new higher volume influx of lesser experienced safari clients on the more modern safari,
to be more proficient shooters, which resulted in quicker DG kills,which made DG hunting safer for both client and PH.
-Selby had a .416 since 1949 and never found the need to go back to a larger .470 double.

quote:

Originally posted by LionHunter:
While charging elephants may be no different now than 110 years ago, calibers, cartridges, bullets and powders have made vast improvements in performance during that time.

Indeed, and those improvements to powders and bullets have benefited a whole range of bore sizes.

quote:

Originally posted by LionHunter:
your idol Bell

Idol is your fantasical choice of words, not mine.
However I do respect and acknowledge the ability and achievements of the master at his game.
as did Townsend Whelen and Harry Selby.
something which your self aggrandising ego does not allow you to do.

quote:

Originally posted by LionHunter:
I am, however, done with you as I find you to be an incredible bore.

I can fully understand that the broader perspective-more knowledgable sobering truth, would bore someone like LH,
who is primarily focused on self aggrandising-telling the forum how good he is.
LH finds it hard to cope with being shadowed by Bells,Selbys and other vast in-depth proffesional careers-accumulated skills,knowledge & experience.
It is apparent that LH ignorance well proceeds the hunting experience he has.

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:
Saeed, at the risk of unnecessarily extending this thread, I have to offer some counter arguments to your statement. I for one DO believe that "bigger is better". Now of course, I also will agree with your statement that it is only better, to a certain extent. Obviously one cannot simply point a 600NE at an elephant, close ones eyes and fire, expecting anything other than disaster!

However, there is strong evidence here on AR to even counter the old standby statement that "a well placed 375 is better than a poorly placed 500NE". Yes, again, in the extreme, that is true. But consider the following two incidents reported here on the forum.

Go back and read the ele bull hunt report with CMS posted by Randy Martin in early 2012. Firstly, this is no adverse reflection on Randy at all IMO. He was using a 375 H&H with the 350gr Woodleigh FMJ bullet. According to his report, he placed the bullet in the exact correct place on the bull's shoulder at an appropriate range for elephant hunting. However, they ended up with an extremely difficult tracking job on that ele due to the bullet not penetrating the shoulder and reaching the vitals. Recovery of the bull was in serious doubt and they were lucky to be successful. IIRC, the bullet deflected and went down the side of the animal outside of the ribcage. This with a perfectly placed shot from the 375 H&H.

Then take a look again at Mike Jines and Buzz's ele cow charge. Things happened very quickly there but one can actually discern the reaction to the shots if you watch closely. Not to say that Mike made a poorly placed shot, quite the contrary, especially under the circumstances of the cow pressing home a serious charge at close range, but the fact is that his 500NE missed the brain. Before Buzz also fires and missed the brain, you can see the animal begin to drop on it's face, thereby stopping the charge. Yes, the cow got back up and finishing shots were necessary to kill it, but the salient point is that the charge was stopped allowing the hunters to escape unharmed. This of course is where Taylor's KO theory is invalid as he stated the animal would be unconscious for a period. Not true.

However, these two incidents, prove without a shadow of a doubt in my opinion, that within reason, bigger IS better. To put a finer point on it, let's consider the two incidents with the rifle calibers switched. Had Randy placed that 570gr solid from a 500NE into the shoulder of the ele bull, at the same range, into the same place, it is doubtful that that larger and heavier bullet would have taken the same deflection and failed to punch through the shoulder, entering the vitals effectively. By the same token, had Mike been shooting a 375 H&H in that charge, and placed the 350gr solid in the same place on that charging cow, knowing that it missed the brain, would it have produced the same result, knocking the animal down long enough for the hunters to walk away safely and then place the finishing shots? Maybe but I would prefer to use the larger 500NE in both situations.

In the specific cases of close misses to the brain on elephant, I liken it to a boxer getting punched "on the button" of the chin or jaw. For any given boxer, a hit "on the button" by a more powerful punch is more likely to score a knockout in the form of temporary unconsciousness or at least disorientation to the extent of interrupting normal brain activity. Much evidence appears to support that close misses to an elephant's brain can render a condition of temporary unconsciousness or disorientation as well. That is usually all that is necessary to stop the charge and ensure the safety of the hunters. I would say this is not the case with buffalo however.

Absolutes are few and far between when considering real life, in the field experiences. You know that much better than I as you have much more experience than I. I will certainly agree that a larger bore weapon in the hands of someone who hasn't taken the time to master it is absolutely no better, and in fact much less effective than a medium bore in the same hands that he can shoot. However, I do believe a large bore in capable hands offers an advantage under certain circumstances than a medium bore in those same capable hands. The key here is "under certain circumstances". Those "certain circumstances" may not manifest themselves very often, but then one never knows ahead of time when they will materialize.

Obviously Saeed, I'm offering this opinion with due respect.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
I have seen elephants drop down to the ground from a head shot from a 375, without it hitting the brain.

Of course. But we are speaking a matter of degrees here. The smaller the caliber, the more precisely the bullet must be placed to get the desired effect. Of course, there is a limit on how imprecisely the bullet can be placed with the larger bore and get the desired effect as well. Again, I'm not disagreeing with your statements but rather pointing out that there are nuances at play as well. There IS a difference concerning shooting at an undisturbed elephant that has no idea you are there and an animal at extreme close range intent on pressing home a charge. In the former, one can take time to precisely place the bullet while the latter often calls for something resembling a snap shot at flushing upland game. Mere inches matter and I want the largest hammer available under those conditions.

I have heard of elephants shaking their heads, turning tail and running off after being shot in the head with a 577 T.Rex.

Again, not disagreeing. My first shot on this year's ele with my 577NE missed the brain by a fair margin and she turned to run. The second also missed the brain from a rear quartering angle but dropped her. A finishing shot was required. Obviously, the second shot was closer to the mark. There is no magic pill, but there are margins of error differences.

I have seen a 500 grain from a 460 Weatherby hit an elephant in the grunk from the front, and miss teh whole body, as it was intended to be a heart shot.

It turned 90 degrees in the trunk and disappeared.

I'm not sure shooting through the trunk with the intent of having the bullet exit, then strike the chest and find it's mark is any smarter than attempting to shoot through a small tree and then find the mark. We all know that any object encountered prior to the intended target is likely to cause deflection; even a blade of grass. That was not however, the example I cited. Randy's bullet struck the bull's chest without first encountering an object. Therefore, the perfectly placed 375 H&H did not prove to be better than a similarly placed 500NE!

No one can tell for certtain what a bullet will do once it hits animal.

No disagreement again. However, one can stack the odds in one's favor by using the largest and heaviest projectile possible when dealing with large dangerous animals AT CLOSE RANGE!

And bearing that in mind, I will continue to use the rifle I think is enough to drop any animal that walks this earth.

Me too!

My trusty 375/404.

My trusty 500NE!

quote:

Originally posted by LionHunter:


I agree with Todd Williams, Mike Jines, fujotupu, Paul (CCMDoc) and all the other large bore DG hunters. I found myself completely underwhelmed when using a .375H&H on my first bull Ele many years ago. I have used both the .458Lott and .458B&M on Ele thereafter and hope to use my 500NE on my next bull this June. I absolutely agree that a perfectly placed shot with a .375 will kill an Ele. I also believe that Ele have been dispatched with a .22LR. However, I repeat, when things go wrong on an up close DG hunt, and they will given enough experience, a larger caliber will provide a margin of safety that I want to have. I do not want the PH to feel it necessary to shoot any of my animals.

Those of us on AR who have earned the T-shirt recognize their peers for their acquired DG experience. The posts in this thread made by trolls with no african experience and specifically no experience hunting Elephant, but who have read about it and thus believe themselves to be experts on the topic, is exceeded only by the audacity of hope!

To believe that those of us who hunt DG with large bore rifles of caliber .45 and up are somehow less proficient with our rifles or poorer shots than Saeed just don't understand the commitment to DG hunting that we make. I have shot 40+ large bore full charge .458 loads or 20 500NE full loads in a 3 hour range session on many occasions. I regularly fire 200-400 rounds prior to a DG hunt. One cannot have an intellectual discussion with trolls.

Look forward to seeing you all at DSC; I leave tomorrow.

quote:

Originally posted by LionHunter:
Well, now that shootaway has joined the fray, the troll collection is almost complete: Hunter54, Trax, 45-70 and now shootaway; almost a full house of all the usual suspects. Between them, the count is ZERO Elephant, I believe, and some have never even set foot on the Dark Continent.

Shootaway, do you get to watch TAA up there in the frozen north? If so, you have seen me shoot Elephant. If not, you're out of luck. And unlike you, I don't film and post video of myself shooting at paper. In fact, it's my personal policy not to publish any pics or videos. I did give Michael458 permission, when he asked, to post a pic of last years Ele with my .458B&M rifle. What in the world makes you believe I owe you answers to anything? How I fund my safaris is certainly not your business, but if you want to buy me an Elephant trophy fee I'll gladly share details with you. Hint: I save just like most here on AR. Your blatant jealousy and childlike whining is very unbecoming for an adult.

DLS - See me to get your T-shirt, sounds like you've earned it. And thanks for making our point about enough gun.

quote:

Originally posted by LionHunter:


I agree with Todd Williams, Mike Jines, fujotupu, Paul (CCMDoc) and all the other large bore DG hunters. I found myself completely underwhelmed when using a .375H&H on my first bull Ele many years ago. I have used both the .458Lott and .458B&M on Ele thereafter and hope to use my 500NE on my next bull this June. I absolutely agree that a perfectly placed shot with a .375 will kill an Ele. I also believe that Ele have been dispatched with a .22LR. However, I repeat, when things go wrong on an up close DG hunt, and they will given enough experience, a larger caliber will provide a margin of safety that I want to have. I do not want the PH to feel it necessary to shoot any of my animals.

Those of us on AR who have earned the T-shirt recognize their peers for their acquired DG experience. The posts in this thread made by trolls with no african experience and specifically no experience hunting Elephant, but who have read about it and thus believe themselves to be experts on the topic, is exceeded only by the audacity of hope!

To believe that those of us who hunt DG with large bore rifles of caliber .45 and up are somehow less proficient with our rifles or poorer shots than Saeed just don't understand the commitment to DG hunting that we make. I have shot 40+ large bore full charge .458 loads or 20 500NE full loads in a 3 hour range session on many occasions. I regularly fire 200-400 rounds prior to a DG hunt. One cannot have an intellectual discussion with trolls.

Look forward to seeing you all at DSC; I leave tomorrow.

quote:

larryshores: Why do differences of opinion always seem to deteriorate so badly here? The single worst thing about AR.

quote:

Originally posted by 45-70 shooter:
24 Hr Campfire ..... that is a LMFAO !

No effective moderation, a site run by 10 trolls, insults, lies, name calling, death threats and more.

Do you really think there are FOUR open police reports on members of this site for Internet threats that include killing another member.

I find this site (with the exception of a few trolls who have migrated from 24hr) to be a very civil site with effective moderation.

The Internet is the best place on earth to be uncivil or a wannabe tough guy. A few people act in ways, while hiding behind a keyboard,that would result in a 911 call if done FTF.
Most of them believe they are hidden from discovery. Some who step over the legal line of State and Federal laws have learned otherwise.

If you believe a difference of opinion is turning into a flame session, you can contact the posters via PM and suggest cooling it down. That failing, you can turn (here) to a moderator.

Just as an FYI, if you are not a member of the "in crowd" in 24 Hr and complain to the "moderator" you, not the offender will be banned.

I have reread this entire thread and see no reason for hand wringing. A little bit of name calling in the heat of discussion (easily fixed)
but no promises of visits to peoples' homes to "straighten them out" or "put your ass under 6 feet of dirt".

IMHO, great site.

NRA Life Member ..... are you ?

quote:

Originally posted by Lhook7:

quote:

Originally posted by 45-70 shooter:
24 Hr Campfire ..... that is a LMFAO !

No effective moderation, a site run by 10 trolls, insults, lies, name calling, death threats and more.

Do you really think there are FOUR open police reports on members of this site for Internet threats that include killing another member.

I find this site (with the exception of a few trolls who have migrated from 24hr) to be a very civil site with effective moderation.

The Internet is the best place on earth to be uncivil or a wannabe tough guy. A few people act in ways, while hiding behind a keyboard,that would result in a 911 call if done FTF.
Most of them believe they are hidden from discovery. Some who step over the legal line of State and Federal laws have learned otherwise.

If you believe a difference of opinion is turning into a flame session, you can contact the posters via PM and suggest cooling it down. That failing, you can turn (here) to a moderator.

Just as an FYI, if you are not a member of the "in crowd" in 24 Hr and complain to the "moderator" you, not the offender will be banned.

I have reread this entire thread and see no reason for hand wringing. A little bit of name calling in the heat of discussion (easily fixed)
but no promises of visits to peoples' homes to "straighten them out" or "put your ass under 6 feet of dirt".

IMHO, great site.

NRA Life Member ..... are you ?

I guess it took you a while to figure out you don't like it over there because you appear to have been banned there under at least 19 different aliases:

1.interthem
2.Goodiewrench
3.BossLady
4.Oldman1942
5.Framis
6.Spanky
7.OurGang
8.Mr. Humble
9.dokhalliday
10.Karen
11. pipercolt
12. mtdoraider
13.Brandy
14. Rootmanslim
15. Schmidt&Bender
16.Tinytim
17. alibaba
18.iamgunnut
19. sopershole

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
Enough gun is the ability to achieve success even when you screw up the shot, by just a little.

Based on that definition the 416 is, usually, enough gun.

And the 375 isn't.

quote:

Originally posted by 45-70 shooter:
Lion Hunter I take exception to your insult. All I did was point out that a 45-70 with the proper ammunition is capable of killing any large game in the world.

blah blah blah...

....I believe an apology is due. Thank You

quote:

Originally posted by 45-70 shooter:
Looking at Boddingtin's book on shot placement on Elephants, I'm confused in when you would ever shoot at the trunk.

quote:

Originally posted by LionHunter:
WTF???

quote:

Originally posted by rootkiller:

quote:

Originally posted by 45-70 shooter:
Looking at Boddingtin's book on shot placement on Elephants, I'm confused in when you would ever shoot at the trunk.

Lawrence old buddy how have you been, i see you still like it in the trunk. I'm sure you've killed lots of pachyderms from Wyoming or key west.when are you going to learn to stop giving advise on things you've never done.