Just reading the other post on the .338 for Ele, I got to ask...

Question:
What do you use and which would you choose of the below rifle/cartridges for an elephant/buff hunt that might include Sable and some smaller opportunities on plains game:

Choices:
Model 70 in 375 H&H
Model 70 in 416 Rem. mag
Model 70 in 458 Win mag

 

"enough gun" is a realtive term and I've not yet hunted elephant. The .416 works great on buffalo if you place your shots (as with anything). I don't see the need for anything smaller than a .416 out to at least 200 yards, and I stretched it to 300 on my last trip. so that pretty much makes the .416, the most versatile calibre I own. I'm sure it would handle an elephant with a good solid -- Hornaday, North Fork, Woodleigh, etc. That would be my choice for versatility.

Hunter54, "enough gun" would be the .375 hands down. But I like the .416 Rem on a Mod 70 so much, that it became my no. 1 loaner/ camp gun, so voted for that.

Vote results, so far, don't surprise me, and I can see the gap increasing with more and more voters.

Enough gun is the ability to achieve success even when you screw up the shot, by just a little.

Based on that definition the 416 is, usually, enough gun.

And the 375 isn't.

It comes down to the one you can shoot best.

But after this years buff experance I would use the 416.

Regards Mark

I have never hunter elephant/buff or any other dangerous game. However I would choose the 375 H&H or Ruger. The reason is it recoils less then the other choices and I think most people will only hunt these animals once and will be able to handle the 375 better. People who participate in more dangerous game hunts will more then likely have more experience in handling larger calibers and for them I think the larger calibers would be appropriate.

My understanding is to hunt these animals in Africa, a Professional Guide is required. That being the case, if allowed, I would pick the 9.3x62 because of the lesser recoil. All things being equal, one shoot better with a lighter recoil rifle.

quote:

My understanding is to hunt these animals in Africa, a Professional Guide is required. That being the case, if allowed, I would pick the 9.3x62 because of the lesser recoil. All things being equal, one shoot better with a lighter recoil rifle.

From the above one is led to understand that you are:
(a) Shy of recoil
(b) You expect the PH to clean up the mess (if it happens).

To attempt hunting DG and a crack at lesser game while in the process with the above in mind goes against the grain (IMO).

If you think the 416 is a thumper (which it isn't) then first find one which is well balanced, pop in a recoil reducer and if necessary fit a muzzle brake (Ugh!)

P.S. I find very little difference in recoil between a 338 & a 416!

To go in the field in the company of a PH whom you have psychologically convinced yourself will do the 'mopping up' is also wrong (IMO).
He is a requirement by law, is to assist in making the right decisions and yes, in the event of the proverbial 'shit hitting the fan' is expected to do his utmost in keeping the fan blades clean.

Next time I shoot a ele I would like to get a special permit to take it with a Takedown .275 Rigby

quote:

Next time I shoot a ele I would like to get a special permit to take it with a Takedown .275 Rigby

Anton, technically not needed in Namibia, as there is no minimum caliber for elephant with us...!

quote:

Originally posted by Karl S:

quote:

Next time I shoot a ele I would like to get a special permit to take it with a Takedown .275 Rigby

Anton, technically not needed in Namibia, as there is no minimum caliber for elephant with us...!

A very old argument that will never be settled.

quote:

Posted 12 December 2012 09:49Hide Post
Enough gun is the ability to achieve success even when you screw up the shot, by just a little.

Based on that definition the 416 is, usually, enough gun.

And the 375 isn't.

Will,

According to your book "Elephant and Elephant guns" the .416 does not have nearly the KO power compared to the .458.


The best choice for elephant gun considering the 3 caliber options ( .375, .416 and .458 ) is the .458 based on KO power. Although the .416 has the greatest penetration index of the 3 choices...the .458 is far superior elephant gun.

My vote, the .458. The beauty of the .458 is the wide range of bullets available for it. Load some 500 grain bullets for the ele and buffalo and some 350 grain bullets for the plains game. Very flexible.

quote:

Originally posted by Hunter54:
Just reading the other post on the .338 for Ele, I got to ask the Question:

What do you use and which would you choose of the below rifle/cartridges for an elephant/buff hunt that might include Sable and some smaller opportunities on plains game:

Choices:
Model 70 in 375 H&H
Model 70 in 416 Rem. mag
Model 70 in 458 Win mag

For elephant I wouldn’t choose any of them because they are all bolt rifle chamberings, and my choice in those bore sizes would be a 450NE double rifle! Now if I were forced to use the mod 70s you list, I would pick the 458 Win Mag. for the same reasons Mike lists!

.............................................................................................................................................................. ................

I don't know if I will ever get to Africa to hunt elephant...but I saw so many of them up close when I was there on my "once-in-a-lifetime" trip that I haven't stopped thinking about shooting one since then. If I do, I guarantee that plains game opportunities will be the furthest thing from my mind in choosing a rifle. For some reason I purchased a model 70 in .458Win after that trip, and have been shooting it a lot, so I guess that I voted in this poll before it was ever started...

Any rifle you can handle well.

I have shot elephants with a 375H&H, 416 Weatherby, 416 Rigby Improved and 375/404.

They all died!

I agree with Saeed, any rifle you handle well. I have taken two ele with 416 Rem, one frontal brain, and one side brain using 400 grain solids. Having said that I also own 375 H&H and 458 Win Mag. Why? No such thing as owning to many rifles.

While I really prefer the true big bores such as my absolute favorite, the 500NE, I voted for the 416.

I've always had an affinity for this caliber, mainly due to it's reputation for penetration. That and the fact that it makes a pretty excellent plains game rifle as well with a flat trajectory. Although I think the 458 would be better for elephant only, the question in the poll asked us to take into account elephant, buffalo, Sable, and possibly some smaller plains game animals. So I answered in line with the question, not simply for elephant.

I would have preferred the Rigby over the Remington however, but then you can't put the Rigby in a M-70.

Fishhunter, if you're afraid of the recoil, you simply need more time on the range with the large rifles. However, if you think the PH is there to save the day and are therefore making the decision to go afield less than fully prepared to handle your own mess, I think you should reconsider.

Just take a 7x57, but be sure Bell is the one shooting it.

There's a pretty convincing school of thought that killing elephants has more to do with knowledge of elephant physiology than marksmanship.

As for me? Nothing less than .50BMG. Never hunted elephant and probably never will. Those animals are BIG.

Good hunting.

I have had occasion to use all three calibers - well the 458s were Lott and B&M rather than WM - on Elephant and/or Buff. I voted for the 416Rem as best all-around, although I do like the 458s for Elephant.

The .416 is an incredible caliber and it will do anything the .375s will, but will simply do it better. All the talk of shot placement is fine, but when something goes wrong, as it inevitably will if you hunt DG long enough, larger is better.

If you haven't hunted both Ele and Buff more than a few times your opinion has no basis in fact and is exactly that, an opinion.

+1 with MJines.

I'm afraid all of our opinions are just opinions ....

It would not be that difficult to make a case for the 458 loaded with the 450 TSX and Barnes solids at about 2300 fps for everything mentioned.

Mark

416 Rem is a fine caliber. Why not consider the 416 Rigby, it is identical in all respects, ballisticly speaking, but has much lower chamber pressure?

If recoil is the issue for you, and it seems to be, go with a good fitting 375, and solids, you'll be fine elephant hunting, if you make good shots. Plenty of rifle for everything else, with TSX Barnes.

Because I prefer Karl to pull the bolt back on an unfired 450 Rigby cartridge and push it back into the magazine rather than to have to shoulder his rifle at all, I'll stick with my 600NE.

Given the choices, I voted 416 as I have both a great deal of experience as well as a great deal of faith in that caliber. I like the .416 Weatherby in a Mark V but that's rabbits vs. hares.

Karl, being of petite ballerina physique, probably prefers the smaller calibers himself.

The question is "enough"

Of course the .375 is enough to kill an elephant.

All of my PH's have told me that they would prefer to have someone shoot a "puny" .375 over a big gun as they have more confidence that the client can hit what they aim at with it; they are good with something bigger if the client is able to handle it, but it seems most of us are not that good with the bigger guns, despite what you may read on this site.

Sure, if you can shoot it, the bigger guns are better at elephant killing- if you are close to the right spot- but if you hit the brain with a .375, how is the animal any less dead than with a .600?

I will admit I like to hunt with bigger guns, but its not a matter of me thinking that it's because the .375 will not get the job done. And the other side of the equation is that if you screw up with a bigger bore, the animal is still just as lost as with a .375.

quote:

It would not be that difficult to make a case for the 458 loaded with the 450 TSX and Barnes solids at about 2300 fps for everything mentioned.

Is that an easy thing to accomplish? Especially with the TSX? I might have one in the works but didn't think 2300 would happen...hmmm

quote:

Originally posted by Karl S:
Hunter54, "enough gun" would be the .375 hands down. But I like the .416 Rem on a Mod 70 so much, that it became my no. 1 loaner/ camp gun, so voted for that.

and that's why i used it Karl...

quote:

Originally posted by fujotupu:


To go in the field in the company of a PH whom you have psychologically convinced yourself will do the 'mopping up' is also wrong (IMO).
He is a requirement by law, is to assist in making the right decisions and yes, in the event of the proverbial 'shit hitting the fan' is expected to do his utmost in keeping the fan blades clean.

the PH should be psychologically prepared that he may at any time, be required to mop up a situation...

I guess that inadvertently gives some ametuer client-hunters a certain psychological comfort, knowing that he has someone higher skilled covering his ass, should it be required.

I really dont see the issue with an ametuer hunter having and knowing such thing....Why?..

because even high level professionals in various different specialised fields whilst performing their tasks or duties,
also have fellow team members ready to cover/assist complete the task when required.
...and yes, they are each highly expecting [mentally prepared or comforted?]
that the higher skilled/experienced team member[s] will intervene if necessary.

- Air traffic controllers know there is someone more experienced in the tower to assist in a crisis,
- Paramedic/Medical teams know there is often a more experienced partner ready to take over/assist in crisis ,
- Airline pilot crew usually have a more experienced Captain take more control/command in the event of a crisis,
- Special Ops & civil Mercenary teams can have multiple persons on trigger, should the primary trigger team member run into any difficult that prevent him from performing his given task.


If its OK for proffesionals, then whats the big deal with ordinary ametuers going into the field having the same mental mindframe of support, knowing theres someone to mop things up?...and highly expecting them to do so!...just like the professionals in other fields.

quote:

Originally posted by Trax:

quote:

Originally posted by fujotupu:


To go in the field in the company of a PH whom you have psychologically convinced yourself will do the 'mopping up' is also wrong (IMO).
He is a requirement by law, is to assist in making the right decisions and yes, in the event of the proverbial 'shit hitting the fan' is expected to do his utmost in keeping the fan blades clean.

the PH should be psychologically prepared that he may at any time, be required to mop up a situation...

I guess that inadvertently gives an ametuer client hunter a certain psychological comfort, knowing that he has someone higher skilled covering his ass, should it be required.

I really dont see the issue with an ametuer hunter having and knowing such thing....Why?..

because even high level professionals in various different specialised fields whist performing their tasks or duties,
also have fellow team members ready to cover/assist complete a task when required.

- Air traffic controllers know there is someone more experienced in the tower to assist in a crisis,
- Paramedic/Medical teams know there is often a more experienced partner ready to take over/assist in crisis ,
- Airline pilot crew usually have a more experienced member take more control/command in the event of a crisis,
- Special Ops & civil Mercenary teams can have a second person on trigger, should the primary trigger team member run into any difficult that prevent him from performing his given task.


If its OK for proffesionals, then whats the big deal with ordinary ametuers going into the field having the same mental mindframe of support, knowing theres someone to mop things up?...and highly expecting them to do so!...just like the professionals in other fields.

Why? Well because regardless of how well trained and competent the PH is, he is still human and capable of screwing up. More likely, his equipment could let him down as many PH rifles I've seen are pretty beat up and they are often using ammo of questionable quality left behind by clients. We've beat this one to death several times but since you bring up some examples, one of which I have a great deal of experience with, I'll try to answer you further.

In the case of the professionals you mentioned such as Airline pilots, etc, there very well may be another person there with more experience onboard, however, each flight crew member is fully capable of handling the aircraft themselves and are highly trained to handle any crisis. In these cases, the First Officer isn't expecting the Captain to "Save the Day" but rather lead the effort, or in the case of the Captain handling the crisis, the First Officer to "Assist" at a professional and competent level. For example, on an overseas flight of more than 8 hours and less than 12, you will have 1 Captain and two First Officers. Two of the three pilots will be at the controls at all times with one on break. All three will hold full Airline Transport Pilot "Type Ratings" on that specific aircraft type. Using your example above, it would be more like 3 PHs hunting together, one with more experience than the others instead of one guy who soloed in a Cessna 150 a couple of times, occupying the right seat of a Boeing 777 flying from Atlanta to Joberg and expecting the Captain to handle all the "advanced" stuff.

Your example doesn't hold water because in the case of the professionals mentioned, they are all fully capable whereas in the case of the client cited above, he is going into the situation not fully prepared and expecting the PH to save him under any and all circumstances.

quote:

Originally posted by Trax:

quote:

Originally posted by fujotupu:


To go in the field in the company of a PH whom you have psychologically convinced yourself will do the 'mopping up' is also wrong (IMO).
He is a requirement by law, is to assist in making the right decisions and yes, in the event of the proverbial 'shit hitting the fan' is expected to do his utmost in keeping the fan blades clean.

the PH should be psychologically prepared that he may at any time, be required to mop up a situation...

I guess that inadvertently gives some ametuer client-hunters a certain psychological comfort, knowing that he has someone higher skilled covering his ass, should it be required.

I really dont see the issue with an ametuer hunter having and knowing such thing....Why?..

because even high level professionals in various different specialised fields whilst performing their tasks or duties,
also have fellow team members ready to cover/assist complete the task when required.
...and yes, they are each highly expecting [mentally prepared or comforted?]
that the higher skilled/experienced team member[s] will intervene if necessary.

- Air traffic controllers know there is someone more experienced in the tower to assist in a crisis,
- Paramedic/Medical teams know there is often a more experienced partner ready to take over/assist in crisis ,
- Airline pilot crew usually have a more experienced Captain take more control/command in the event of a crisis,
- Special Ops & civil Mercenary teams can have multiple persons on trigger, should the primary trigger team member run into any difficult that prevent him from performing his given task.


If its OK for proffesionals, then whats the big deal with ordinary ametuers going into the field having the same mental mindframe of support, knowing theres someone to mop things up?...and highly expecting them to do so!...just like the professionals in other fields.

Baloney
That is like living in a nanny state expecting the government to bail you out when you cannot manage your personal finances.

quote:

Originally posted by BaxterB:

quote:

It would not be that difficult to make a case for the 458 loaded with the 450 TSX and Barnes solids at about 2300 fps for everything mentioned.

Is that an easy thing to accomplish? Especially with the TSX? I might have one in the works but didn't think 2300 would happen...hmmm

I was thinking the exact same thing. I have loaded for a .458 WM quite a lot and in fact I do think the 450 gr projectile is the best for this round. I personally shoot North Fork softs and solids in mine. With near max loads of AA 2230 I get 2250 OK but much more is difficult.

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:


Your example doesn't hold water because in the case of the professionals mentioned, they are all fully capable whereas in the case of the client cited above, he is going into the situation not fully prepared and expecting the PH to save him under any and all circumstances.

As the hunting client he/she should expect that, after all he/she is an ametuer paying for the services/support of a PH.

Whether or not the client needs to call on the more extreme services on offer by the PH,...is another thing.

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:
Using your example above, it would be more like 3 PHs hunting together, one with more experience than the others instead of one guy who soloed in a Cessna 150 a couple of times, occupying the right seat of a Boeing 777 flying from Atlanta to Joberg and expecting the Captain to handle all the "advanced" stuff.

and 'ametuer' private pilot John Travolta, has who handle any cockpit crisis in his Boeing 707..?

Travolta has no PIC rating for his 707,...so he pays a top level Boeing captain to be beside him,
...who will handle all the 'advance stuff' you talk about,... in the event of a crisis.

It is foolish to rely 100% on the PH to clean up any mess you as a client might create. The PH is human and using a mechanical device. Both are capable of failing. The examples of safety through redundancy you've cited assume the less experienced person in the equation is fully capable in the first place, not that the more experienced person is being relied on 100% to save the day. The same applies with hunting DG but not so much with PG. The client should be prepared to the absolute best of his abilities to handle his own mess before relying on the PH as a backup.

quote:

Originally posted by Trax:

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:


Your example doesn't hold water because in the case of the professionals mentioned, they are all fully capable whereas in the case of the client cited above, he is going into the situation not fully prepared and expecting the PH to save him under any and all circumstances.

As the hunting client he/she should expect that, after all he/she is an ametuer paying for the services/support of a PH.

Whether or not the client needs to call on the more extreme services on offer by the PH,...is another thing.

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:
Using your example above, it would be more like 3 PHs hunting together, one with more experience than the others instead of one guy who soloed in a Cessna 150 a couple of times, occupying the right seat of a Boeing 777 flying from Atlanta to Joberg and expecting the Captain to handle all the "advanced" stuff.

and 'ametuer' private pilot John Travolta, has who handle any cockpit crisis in his Boeing 707..?

Travolta has no PIC rating for his 707,...so he pays a top level Boeing captain to be beside him,
...who will handle all the 'advance stuff' you talk about,... in the event of a crisis.

I see you've been editing again before anyone has a chance to respond.

Well, like I said, I have some experience with some of what you posted.

Travolta. He trains on his 707 each year at the American Airlines training center. I was a Check Airman for American Airlines for 8 years. I've met Travolta several times while he was there training as American at the time was one of the few places that still had a 707 simulator rated for Type Ratings.

Travolta most definitely DOES have his type rating on the B707. You sir, are simply wrong on that one!

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:
The client should be prepared to the absolute best of his abilities to handle his own mess before relying on the PH as a backup.

NO body is saying the client should not be best prepared to the best of their personal capability.

Ultimately though, the hunting clients are ametuers, and their skills can & do vary.

PHs absorb this reality, to stay in business.

Profesionals are expected to cover a situation to the best of their proffesional capability,

- be it a hired PH covering an ametuer[ varying skill level] hunting clients,
- or a hired Boeing Captain to cover private non proffesional pilots like John Travolta, in the event of a crisis in his 707.

quote:

Originally posted by Trax:

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:
The client should be prepared to the absolute best of his abilities to handle his own mess before relying on the PH as a backup.

NO body is saying the client should not be best prepared to the best of their personal capability.

Ultimately though, the hunting clients are ametuers, and their skills can & do vary.

PHs absorb this reality, to stay in business.

Profesionals are expected to cover a situation to the best of their proffesional capability,

- be it a hired PH covering an ametuer[ varying skill level] hunting clients,
- or a hired Boeing Captain to cover private non proffesional pilots like John Travolta, in the event of a crisis in his 707.

Have a nice day!

laws require ametuer hunters to have the skills/experience of PH beside them,

and laws require ametuer/private pilots like Travolta, to have a full commercial-highly experienced pilot beside him
in the B707 cockpit.

I am sure the law requires the PH and the experienced commercial Captain,[respectively],
to dictate how things will be handled and who will be required to handle them,..in the event of a crisis.

I really dont have an issue with ametuers having more skilled proffesionals beside them to handle difficult situations.
Nor do I have any issue with professionals having equal or even greater skilled professionals beside them to call on in difficult situations.

quote:

Originally posted by Trax:
laws require ametuer hunters to have the skills/experience of PH beside them,

and laws require ametuer/private pilots like Travolta, to have a full commercial-highly experienced pilot beside him
in the B707 cockpit.

Any amateur pilot holding the proper rating is fully legal to fly his own plane. However, in the case of the B-707, that aircraft is certified as a 2 pilot airplane, so there does have to be another Commercial Rated pilot in the cockpit. However, Travolta is certified as Pilot In Command by possessing his ATP (Airline Transport Pilot) Type Rating in that jet. The second pilot required in the cockpit with him is only required to hold a commercial, instrument, multi-engine rating. There is NO requirement for the second in command pilot on Travolta's jet to be Type Rated. There is NO requirement for Travolta's co-pilot to be anything more than minimally qualified as a commercial, instrument, multi rated pilot with considerably less experience than Travolta.

I fail to understand the point of your posts other than to argue for the pure sake of arguing. If, as you say, "No body is saying the client should not be best prepared to the best of their personal capability", then what the hell are your arguing about? Technically speaking, yes, the PH will have ultimate responsibility. However, the point of my posts are that expecting someone other than yourself to save your bacon because you haven't prepared properly to avoid causing a mess in the first place and then to clean up your own mess once caused, is simply foolish at best, not from a legality standpoint but rather, from a self preservation standpoint.

That should be clear enough for you to understand. In any case, I'm done with you because you are arguing simply to get the last word, and not to arrive at any conclusion.