I arrived at the convention today and started my usual tour and meeting old friends.

I stumbled upon Tshabezi Safaris (Dudley Rogers)and saw they were selling non-exportable bull elephant and buffalo.

I questioned as to where the hunts would take place. The answer was Hwange. This was no misunderstanding as I discussed it with "Michael" working his booth for over fifteen minutes.

I thought no permits have been issued to hunt in the parks. I also thought that no tourist hunting was allowed in a National Park.

So what is the truth?

well, considering he sold an elephant hunt to member here that was thought by the buyer to be a standard elephant hunt but turned out to be a night hunt for crop raiders in a village, can't say as i am surprised.

Is this at the SCI show?

Very intersted to see how this plays out...

SCI - First for hunters better start cleaning up their house or they are going to loose all credibility with EVERYONE.

Imagine they shut down ALL ZIM imports due to "Unmanaged Game departments" like Moz.

All these so called hunting clubs, hunting organizations, hunting bodies that demand a subscription every year to "Protect Hunting" better get of their FAT ASs. . .donkeys

SCI has become a money making machine.
Where the money goes, is anyone's guess.

It certainly does NOT go for conservation or the protection hunting.

I talked to Dudley in Dallas. He told me his hunts are crop raiders at night.

He has been around for ages. I doubt he would personally tell anyone otherwise. Or risk breaking the law.

I would suggest the lynch mob calm down!!

Will,

I thought NO HUNTS are allowed in the parks?
Only park rangers can shoot in the park when it is necessasy!

quote:

I talked to Dudley in Dallas. He told me his hunts are crop raiders at night

I talked with Dudley back in September. He stated the same thing - problem elephants who raid crops. Hunting was primarily night time with lights. You shoot the first elephant (regardless of size and that's what you get). Declined due to the night time hunting idea.

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
I talked to Dudley in Dallas. He told me his hunts are crop raiders at night.

He has been around for ages. I doubt he would personally tell anyone otherwise. Or risk breaking the law.

I would suggest the lynch mob calm down!!

These hunts are not being sold as crop raiders. There was no ambiguity as to the purpose or method. I was clearly told they are entering Hwange and hunting. They tried to compare these hunts to culling elephants for population control.

I know Dudley. I have hunted with Dudley. I trust Dudley. Dudley has had several concessions for 25 plus years. I have hunted Elephant in the daytime with him in Gokwe North. He has been selling crop raiding nightime hunts down in Gokwe South for years. I thought everybody knew that. All those cheap Elephant hunts he sells, usually in Feb., March, April, are night time. Wendell has been selling his hunts for years. Many AR members have hunted with Dudley. Dudley is one of the good guys. Don't be too anxious to crucify the man. Check with Wendell he may know more. Don't rush to judgment. Dudley would not do anything illegal.

Butch,

I will say it again. These are plainly Hwange hunts. Enter the park, no doubt, and argued the merits of it.

All I want to know is it LEGAL to hunt in Hwange.

Mike,

I hear you. No problem with your inquiry, I would like to know also, but some others have jumped to conclusions without more input. Trust but verify, that is prudent.
I hunted the Hwange Park border with another operator, lots of bull Elephants one yard inside the line, but none on my side. Maybe they need thinning and the park has decided to generate some funds for themselves. Please let us know what you find out.

I will be the first to say that I may be wrong on this, but my recollection from last year was that Zim did actually issue some "legal" permits in Hwange...BUT the consensus of operators decided that these were not ethical and declined to run the hunts. Again, I may be wrong, but I think Marty said he could have gotten some of the permits, but he would not hunt in the park even though he has a photo lodge there that could be easily used. So this may be more a question of ethics rather than legality. (if I am wrong, I apologize).

Ganyana have explained it many times. Its illegal by law in Zim to hunt in National parks but sometimes someone up there needs a new car or a better summer house and signs a TR2 and make this illegal hunt legal atleast on paper.

Mike is 100% right, Dudley is offering elephant AND buffalo hunts in Hwange National Park, there is no doubt, although permits ay be issued, they have not been authorized yet and like some have said, regardless of what is law or legal in Zimbabwe, this comes down to what is right or wrong period, to make a few dollars one should not be led astray by the desperation of our authorities!

I will come back to you all with my side later and yes I have discussed the issue with Martin Peters, and thanks to the folk who have not over reacted to the situation on my behalf.

quote:

Originally posted by Mabhinya:
I will come back to you all with my side later and yes I have discussed the issue with Martin Peters, and thanks to the folk who have not over reacted to the situation on my behalf.

Thanx Dudley, welcome to the forumn.If these are legal hunts both on paper and Morally then I apologize for my earlier post.
Looking forward to your reply.
In good ethical hunting

Gentlemen,

This can be a tricky issue to discuss, I just hope we all keep an open mind of what we say about it.

Who decides where one can hunt?
The government.

So if the relevant authorities have decided that it is OK to hunt in the park, I see no reason why those who wish to follow that cannot hunt there.

Those who think this is unethical, should stay away from it.

We all have certain things we would rather not do, whether they are legal or not. That is our own choice.

Very well said Saeed...if it is legal, it is legal. Ethics and morals are different for each individual and they have to make that choice.

The problem in Zim is that the law (actual written on books law) may say one thing and officials may allow another. I suspect this is the case. While the law states it is illegal to hunt in a Park...if the managing authorities authorize it...it can be done with out problem in country as long as no exportation is done. However...for US citizens...it may be a violation of the Lacey Act...as it is truly NOT legal...just allowed.

Saeed, sorry, I have to disagree with you here.Many of these ration hunts are NOT conducted in the correct manner in which they are meant to be. Operators hunt these ' ration hunts' and then apply for export permits from parks for ration animals, this is ILLEGAL in the eyes of the USFW. Ration hunts may very well be issued ( although they have not been issued yet ) but importation into the USA of such ration animals is a violation period and I have that from the top.
Regardless of legal or not legal hunting in the park should not occur period. Operators should stay away from it and all hunters should follow suit.

Martin

quote:

Originally posted by martin pieters:
Saeed, sorry, I have to disagree with you here.Many of these ration hunts are NOT conducted in the correct manner in which they are meant to be. Operators hunt these ' ration hunts' and then apply for export permits from parks for ration animals, this is ILLEGAL in the eyes of the USFW. Ration hunts may very well be issued ( although they have not been issued yet ) but importation into the USA of such ration animals is a violation period and I have that from the top.
Regardless of legal or not legal hunting in the park should not occur period. Operators should stay away from it and all hunters should follow suit.

Martin

Spot on.

quote:

Originally posted by martin pieters:
Saeed, sorry, I have to disagree with you here.Many of these ration hunts are NOT conducted in the correct manner in which they are meant to be. Operators hunt these ' ration hunts' and then apply for export permits from parks for ration animals, this is ILLEGAL in the eyes of the USFW. Ration hunts may very well be issued ( although they have not been issued yet ) but importation into the USA of such ration animals is a violation period and I have that from the top.
Regardless of legal or not legal hunting in the park should not occur period. Operators should stay away from it and all hunters should follow suit.

Martin

Martin,

In principle I agree with you.

But, what right has the USFW got to decide if one thing is legal in another country or not?

We argue amonst ourselves about all the negative actions of the USFW take aqainst hunters trying to import trophies they have taken LEGALLY in another country, but the USFW decides they do not like the way that trophy was taken.

What about hunters from other countries, who do not have to worry about the Lacey Act?

Trying to learn from this thread - from what Martin and Lane have said, these hunts are technically still illegal (against the written law) - so they are truly illegal. Just because someone in Zim Parks decides to issue the permits - they are issuing beyond the actual law. Is this correct? Or is it that they are issuing ration permits in parks that are legal (as ration/nonexportable), and they are being sold as trophy hunts (and attempting to be exported)? I guess both scenarios are illegal by written law- right? Again, I appreciate the information and am just trying to fully understand what is going on and what is legal or not...

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

Who decides where one can hunt?
The government.

So if the relevant authorities have decided that it is OK to hunt in the park, I see no reason why those who wish to follow that cannot hunt there.

Except that in civilised countries, the law applies to those in power as well. That does not seem to be the case in Zim which is being run as a fiefdom of the ruling party.

Dean

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

We argue amonst ourselves about all the negative actions of the USFW take aqainst hunters trying to import trophies they have taken LEGALLY in another country, but the USFW decides they do not like the way that trophy was taken.

Saeed,
You have hit the nail on the head...technically, it is not legal.

quote:

Originally posted by Tim Herald:
Trying to learn from this thread - from what Martin and Lane have said, these hunts are technically still illegal (against the written law) - so they are truly illegal. Just because someone in Zim Parks decides to issue the permits - they are issuing beyond the actual law. Is this correct? Or is it that they are issuing ration permits in parks that are legal (as ration/nonexportable), and they are being sold as trophy hunts (and attempting to be exported)? I guess both scenarios are illegal by written law- right? Again, I appreciate the information and am just trying to fully understand what is going on and what is legal or not...

Tim,

To the best of my knowledge...you are 100% correct above and can remove all question marks.

Thanks Lane...

Gentlemen,
I'm in the dock,and I know I am not guilty as charged, and rather than try to defend myself, let me explain a few "truths" and get this over and done with.
Firstly let me assure you that I am not a "poacher" and other violent unfounded names called to my friend Michael in my booth who is probably the most gentle person in the hall. Just give us the time of day and you may find there is another side to what you have been fed in the booth down the way, and you will find out "what the truth Is."
Secondly while I understand everyone wants to jump in and have their say, a lot of it is assumption, and the issue needs to be dealt with by Zimbabweans in Zimbabwe with the Zimbabwean authorities, and I thank Saeed for his depth of wisdom.
Let me kick off by telling you that the way I got into this was through a furniture company who was contracted by National Parks and Wild Life "AUTHORITY" to make some furniture for a Parks lodge and the company was offered a number of elephant to pay for the furniture, and they offered the ellies to me and I agreed as I was impressed that the cash strapped parks would use their own product to purchase the lodge furniture. We then notified Parks Authority, and they offered me some buffalo too.
I was informed that the hunts would require all the relevant documentation required to hunt a client, and that we would be required to pay the regular Parks fees and that the hunts would be done out of the way of any regular tourism. We found this to be in order and confirmed our intentions. Please note that I have had no dealings in this with any one other than the National Parks Authority office.
Management quotas. These quotas are given to many of the campfire areas, Forestry concessions,and National Parks and it is usually based on elephant and buffalo, but I have also seen kudu and impala on management quotas, and these are Non Exportable quotas which are available to the "Appropriate Authority" to use for functions, rations and sale to operators or others to hunt with clients and provide income for the AA. Yes I believe that Omay get a healthy management quota which I was informed by an irate concessionaire that the council kept half the quota and they could not sell them all to clients!!
I do understand that a National Park is a sanctuary for wildlife, BUT it still has to be managed, and they give say Hwange Park a management quota of 50 - 100 elephant where they have an over population of about 30 - 40,000 elephant which works out to less than .3% and the people who are anti hunting this quota are happy for a scout to go out and kill the same elephant for the meat, and no financial return to a financially failing institution. Sorry, I do not get it. The very same people can sell their management quota and make bucks for their councils or appropriate authorities and themselves, but parks cannot, and it is OK if they stay broke instead of the same scout that goes out to kill an elephant for rations goes along with a PH and a paying client who shoots the animal and recovers it and the meat is eaten and they get an extra some thousands of dollars to plow back into the area for pumps, diesel and other requirements to sustain the animals....????
The Legalities. The Park receives a management quota, but according to the ACT no hunting can take place in a national park, UNLESS the minister signs a special permit to hunt in the park. This makes it LEGAL and it has been done before and will be done again, and I personally see no wrong in it, but to be honest that is only my opinion ,the same as Martin Peters feels it is wrong, and he is entitled to his own opinion, and I'm sure we both have good points for our arguments and it does not make me less of a person because I have an opinion that does not fall in line with his and it does not mean that I am unethical.
Ethics is the compliance to rules and parameters set for the way something "legal" needs to be carried out, and as long as one adheres to the rules and parameters he is ethically sound, so this should not be used as a tag on anyone that happens to do something that in our "OPINION" is wrong. In our discussion Martin complained to me that some hunters had bribed the scouts, shot big elephant and other stuff, ALL of which fell outside the set parameters required by parks and the culprits should have been brought to book, but that does not mean the operation is wrong and should be stopped. There just needs to be a good honest control on the operation, and an understanding that the finances are used specifically for the park where the quota is taken, and not as Martin put it, into someones pocket upstairs.
I do believe that with some reshuffling, tightening screws and getting the operation into Zimbabweans hands and away from outside influence we can see this thing work properly, and I am prepared to sit and discuss it with anyone and the authorities in Zim, and have told Martin I will do this, but of course I need to be invited.

quote:

Originally posted by Mabhinya:
The Legalities. The Park receives a management quota, but according to the ACT no hunting can take place in a national park, UNLESS the minister signs a special permit to hunt in the park. This makes it LEGAL

Please get a copy of the act with this statement in it and post it. I have been told, by people who were supposedly experts, that there no provisions for conducting hunts in Zim National Parks.

It is important for US hunters to know what is ACTUAL law because even though their is no import with these hunts...if it is against the law...USF&W could prosecute under the Lacey Act. And...with the publicity of the 100 lb. ele being shot in Hwange...there is pressure for them to monitor this.

quote:

Firstly let me assure you that I am not a "poacher" and other violent unfounded names called to my friend Michael in my booth who is probably the most gentle person in the hall.

I will agree Michael is a gentleman. I do not remember calling you a poacher, but I did use the words "illegal" and "unethical", maybe you consider those words violent.

quote:

Just give us the time of day and you may find there is another side to what you have been fed in the booth down the way, and you will find out "what the truth Is."

I not only give Michael the time of day, I gave him my card with my cell phone number and email address. As far as what I am being "fed down the hall", I spoke to nine different Zim PHs who found the Hwange hunts despicable, unethical, and as far as they knew illegal.

There is a provision in our wildlife act of 1975 that allows for the minister to issue permits in a National Park. The permit can be issued for the following reasons

1. Educational purposes.
2. Scientific reasons.
3. Research.

Because parks owe money, it does not make it right to hunt in the national park, especially considering what has transpired previously with trophy animals being taken, ration animals being exported using ' special permits' and animals shot and skinned in front of the public around waterholes and on tourist routes.
People who want to participate in these ' shoots' will obviously try and justify reasons and make excuses. There are however many reasons why hunting within a national park should not occur.

Martin

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by Mabhinya:
The Legalities. The Park receives a management quota, but according to the ACT no hunting can take place in a national park, UNLESS the minister signs a special permit to hunt in the park. This makes it LEGAL

Please get a copy of the act with this statement in it and post it. I have been told, by people who were supposedly experts, that there no provisions for conducting hunts in Zim National Parks.

It is important for US hunters to know what is ACTUAL law because even though their is no import with these hunts...if it is against the law...USF&W could prosecute under the Lacey Act. And...with the publicity of the 100 lb. ele being shot in Hwange...there is pressure for them to monitor this.

Lane,

Firstly, let me say, I would NOT hunt inside a Park. But I think your comment about the Lacey act might not be 100% correct. I'm not an expert but I do believe a Lacey Act Violation requires importation or transportation of an illegally obtained animal across a state or federal boundary. If so, with no import, there would be no Lacey Act Violation.

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:
I'm not an expert but I do believe a Lacey Act Violation requires importation or transportation of an illegally obtained animal across a state or federal boundary. If so, with no import, there would be no Lacey Act Violation.

Todd,
I am certainly NO expert on this either...but...while looking into the matter with the LCTF for another reason...we asked for clarification of this as to how the USF&W views the Lacey Act as they would be the agency to file charges...we were told...FWIW...that the USF&W views the act of a hunter breaking a wildlife/hunting law in a foreign country a violation of the Lacey Act and therefore prosecutable.

Whether or NOT it will stand up in the court...remains to be seen...I do not know if there is any case law on the specific instance in question as of now.

I am not sure that hunting in a National Park is a completely black/white or good/bad situation. most of you know of Ron Thompson, a past Hwange Park Chief Warden. In his book Mahobho, he makes a pretty good case for hunting in the Park to support funding for Park management objectives. Another point of view. I am still on the fence on whether it is a good idea or not.

465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
I am not sure that hunting in a National Park is a completely black/white or good/bad situation. most of you know of Ron Thompson, a past Hwange Park Chief Warden. In his book Mahobho, he makes a pretty good case for hunting in the Park to support funding for Park management objectives. Another point of view. I am still on the fence on whether it is a good idea or not.

465H&H

465,
If managed properly...I am sure it could used as a good management tool..provide money and food to park. That said...we already hunt the entire borders of the parks. And...management in Zim is always problem. For example...in regards to ele...if you are going to cull the herds in a Park...you DON'T go in and shoot a 100lb tusker...you shoot tuskless and single tusk cows...and bulls with non-desirable ivory. With hunting in Hwange...that is exactly what happened...100 lb. ele that tourist liked to photo was shot. Not good!!! With out REALLY GOOD supervision...it ain't gonna work!

quote:

.if you are going to cull the herds in a Park...you DON'T go in and shoot a 100lb tusker...you shoot tuskless and single tusk cows...and bulls with non-desirable ivory

Lane: +1

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
I am not sure that hunting in a National Park is a completely black/white or good/bad situation. most of you know of Ron Thompson, a past Hwange Park Chief Warden. In his book Mahobho, he makes a pretty good case for hunting in the Park to support funding for Park management objectives. Another point of view. I am still on the fence on whether it is a good idea or not.

465H&H

465,
If managed properly...I am sure it could used as a good management tool..provide money and food to park. That said...we already hunt the entire borders of the parks. And...management in Zim is always problem. For example...in regards to ele...if you are going to cull the herds in a Park...you DON'T go in and shoot a 100lb tusker...you shoot tuskless and single tusk cows...and bulls with non-desirable ivory. With hunting in Hwange...that is exactly what happened...100 lb. ele that tourist liked to photo was shot. Not good!!! With out REALLY GOOD supervision...it ain't gonna work!

I totally agree with you that without REALLY GOOD supervision, there are those that will take advantage of it. But I don't agree with your saying tusked and tuskless cows only should be shot to cull. If your going to cull for population control then entire herds must be killed not single animals. That is not for the neophyte hunter to attempt. Most of the damage to trees is done by bulls. Although, I doubt that enough sport hunting could be fit into the park to significantly reduce the bull population. Large amounts of dollars could be funneled into Parks Dept from carefully controlled sport hunting for trophy animals if the hunting is done away from the normal tourist areas. I don't think that Zim Parks is capable of doing that at this time.

465H&H