Dudley,I find it very amusing that you use the words respectful and honorable in the same sentence. Clearly you have no respect for our wildlife or profession.Seems to me it is just a money thing for you now ( where once it was supposed to be a gentleman's sport). Tell me where is the honor also in being part of the problem that most of us Zimbabwean PH's are trying to clean up?

I realize you have to make a living as we all do,personally I would rather change my profession than stoop so low as to just throw the towel in and say " well if we can't beat them then we better join them"

I had respect for you as an operator when you were in Gokwe and other areas,but if you proceed with your hunts in our National parks,it will only be you to blame, when the Zim hunting community shun's you.Do as you may.....

quote:

Originally posted by Peter Barnard:
Martin well said,our point as you pointed out it that this is unethical.Lets hope you can get a meeting with the DG and relevant ministers.

I am not sure that basing our objections on hunting in National Parks on it being unethical is the right way to go. As has been shown on this forum many times in the past "Ethics is in the eye of the beholder!". A much better case can be made on the legality of such hunts and the negative affects of sport hunting in the Parks.

465H&H

Dudley i do not know you personally but hope i get to meet you face to face someday. What you wrote trying to defend your actions is laughable at best. I cannot believe that you would stop this low and join the rable that have done there best to ruin our country. You will get what you deserve sooner or later. You are a waste.

Gee Peter, you must spend sleepless nights thinking how you can say nasty things about me. Instead of being arrogant and abusive and aggressive, why don't you settle down and be constructive man. My comment was on your attitude and dig at Saeed, Roscoe and others who put across perfectly constructive opinions. Because you think something is wrong does not mean it IS wrong, and like anyone you can put across your opinion, but no need to try and beat everyone into agreeing with you. Take the comment from 465 H&H.

quote:
Originally posted by Peter Barnard:
Martin well said,our point as you pointed out it that this is unethical.Lets hope you can get a meeting with the DG and relevant ministers.



I am not sure that basing our objections on hunting in National Parks on it being unethical is the right way to go. As has been shown on this forum many times in the past "Ethics is in the eye of the beholder!". A much better case can be made on the legality of such hunts and the negative affects of sport hunting in the Parks.

465H&H

To me this is wisdom. No shouting or harsh words, just straight up wisdom.

I have not thrown in the towel, and at no stage have I said "if we cant beat them we better join them," I did say..

and here we are on a public forum trying to hack each other apart while the South Africans have a big smile on their faces and sneaking in behind us and being unethical and killing the 100 pounders in front of the tourists and feel nothing about it. Look guys, it is going to happen whether you like it or not and you know I am right, because you know the administration like I do, but I believe we have to get together and try to establish some control on it and stop every other man and his dog eating our grub. The biggest problem in Zim is not the Parks, its the intruders from the South.

Parks Need Money, and if there is a way they are going to get it they will use that way, and we can stand back bickering like a bunch of fools with our horns locked while Van der Merwe's bull jumps in the kraal.

Let me tell you that I have not taken one deposit for these elephant hunts, but I'm pretty certain the Van de Merwes have. My next post may interest you. Remember what is law is law, and we need to work from there. Have a great day.

Parks and Wild Life (General) Regulations, 1990
Hunting in the Parks and Wild Life Estate
Prohibition of hunting in parts of the Parks and Wild Life Estate

17) No person shall hunt any animal in any part of the wild life estate which is a botanical reserve, a botanical garden, or recreational park, except in accordance with a permit issued by the Director.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by zimguide:
Dudley i do not know you personally but hope i get to meet you face to face someday. What you wrote trying to defend your actions is laughable at best. I cannot believe that you would stop this low and join the rable that have done there best to ruin our country. You will get what you deserve sooner or later. You are a waste of W S[/QUOTE)

If you let us know who you are we can arrange to meet face to face any time, I do not have anything to hide, not even my name, and I will be happy to discuss the issue with you. In the meantime I guess we should allow the rabble to do what they like while we fuss at each other. And as for your opinion of me being a waste of white skin, thats ok, you're forgiven.Try to be constructive and open minded about discussing issues rather than calling people names for thinking differently than you. You may have less stress.

How did Zimguide delete "of WS" from his post. This means "white skin", and I captured on my reply...hmm interesting!

I have little knowledge about the particulars here--however Dudley deserves credit for coming on and defending his position.

SSR

quote:

Originally posted by Mabhinya:
How did Zimguide delete "of WS" from his post. This means "white skin", and I captured on my reply...hmm interesting!

quote:

Originally posted by Mabhinya:
I did say...and here we are on a public forum trying to hack each other apart while the South Africans have a big smile on their faces and sneaking in behind us and being unethical and killing the 100 pounders in front of the tourists and feel nothing about it. Look guys, it is going to happen whether you like it or not and you know I am right, because you know the administration like I do, but I believe we have to get together and try to establish some control on it and stop every other man and his dog eating our grub. The biggest problem in Zim is not the Parks, its the intruders from the South.

Parks Need Money, and if there is a way they are going to get it they will use that way, and we can stand back bickering like a bunch of fools with our horns locked while Van der Merwe's bull jumps in the kraal.

This is tantamount to a declaration that if you cannot beat them, join them. I find the whole attitude defeatist. Why is it that other reputable Zim outfitters are prepared to just say no and you are not?

The sad part of all this is the past 30 years of Zim history / rule allowing such carryings on to happen in what used to be a magnificent well managed park. I recall several years ago that the pumps on the pans had no diesel or were broken and couldn't aford the parts to fix them.
This type of thing started many years ago with the VIP hunts given unbelievable quotas over existing concessions in the Valley. Ministerial extra game approved for people with no prior connection to the areas involved.
I doubt there are any honest ethical ministers in Zimbabwe!
And there will always be a certain types who will get involved in these fringe operations.
Be they operators or paying shooters.
APB

Gentlemen, as we all have to make our daily living, we also need to preserve our heritage for future generations. And the later seems to be most under threat in Zimbabwe right now.

My question, as may be others,
1. Who are the illegal South Africans jumping the fence?
2. Who are the Zimbabweans (legal or Illegal) they are working with?

One of the problems with the Zimbos is that they never stand together! On one hand you have a group of young (relatively) committed guys trying to stop something that will possibly affect their industry in the long term, and on the other a group that are keen to take what they can while they can.

I have a number of friends in Zim and unfortunately over the past decade and more the "takers" have dramatically outnumbered the level headed guys in it for the long term - even before Bob went properly mad in the late 90's. If they all took a collective stand then the dodgy foreigners would have no way of carrying out their shenanigans.

The main reason these unscupulous outfitters are operating in Zim is because the industry and concession owners in other countries know these type of outfitters and how they operate and they cannot get access to quality hunting in RSA or any other SADC country for that matter. But across the border in Zim almost anything is possible.....

If the Zimbabweans stand together they will be able to put a stop to this or at least expose the few individuals in Zim happy to carry on doing such hunts.

Manyathelo........well said nothing further

As a client you might think that the positions you take don't matter. Personal case in point, I am trying to work out a date with a Zim Ph that has worked very hard to educate clients and PH's alike as to proper and legal etiquette for Zim hunting. To be honest, I want to support this guy and choose to hunt with him even though I could probably with little effort wrangle a Parks hunt and kill bigger animals. When is's all said and done the quality of the experience is what matters. I will probably not kill an 80 pound nzhou, but so be it. We clients for the most part do watch these discussons and care about the results.

Jeff

Jeff, that is a great point too. Part of the solution rests with clients acting responsibly. Clients being prepared to support those that are trying to make a difference in preserving Zim's wildlife as opposed to outfitters that are only interested in turning a quick buck.

By the way, Day 3 in the SCI Waiting Game, and still no email response to my note posted above.

Jeff and Mike,

Agee 100%

quote:

Originally posted by Manyathelo:
One of the problems with the Zimbos is that they never stand together! On one hand you have a group of young (relatively) committed guys trying to stop something that will possibly affect their industry in the long term, and on the other a group that are keen to take what they can while they can.

I have a number of friends in Zim and unfortunately over the past decade and more the "takers" have dramatically outnumbered the level headed guys in it for the long term - even before Bob went properly mad in the late 90's. If they all took a collective stand then the dodgy foreigners would have no way of carrying out their shenanigans.

The main reason these unscupulous outfitters are operating in Zim is because the industry and concession owners in other countries know these type of outfitters and how they operate and they cannot get access to quality hunting in RSA or any other SADC country for that matter. But across the border in Zim almost anything is possible.....

If the Zimbabweans stand together they will be able to put a stop to this or at least expose the few individuals in Zim happy to carry on doing such hunts.

I agree with most of what you say sir, us Zimbo's do not stick together, but there again it is human nature to survive and there have been a number of folk in Zim that have found themselves going into deals with the unscrupulous and would never admit it on a forum like this. The problem is that if they do not comply the situation will be offered to a South African, German, American or whoever else would jump at the opportunity to climb in and good folk find themselves doing stuff and running areas for people who their better judgement tells them not to, plus the fact that the people they work for are "on the list" but no one cares, they pitch at the SCI convention, and even post on this forum.

I agree with you, that there are committed guys out there trying to stop the rot, but it is kind of like trying to stop a flood, and you put your hands up and say NO NO NO!!! and you end up getting drowned because it is on its way, it is going to find a way, BUT you can control it and divert it and you can contain it, and then you can use it to the best interests of the recipient, and you can stop the "dodgy foreigners and their shenanigans" once you have it under proper control.

You know, with the radical situation in Zim sentimentality and emotionalism has little or actually no effect, and the way to go is being pragmatic and practical and working to divert the bad into something good by putting in controls and bolsters and making sure the right people are in place to see that it runs according to plan and not in the shambolic way it is happening today.

I have been accused of " if you cant beat them join them" well if most of you had taken the time to read my previous posts you would see that this is not my "motto", and I am determined to beat them, and I have no intention to "join them" and I will do my best to help get this shambolic intrusion out of Zim and I have spoken to people about it and am prepared to play my part in getting it sorted.

In November I spent a few days in Hwange with my family, and was horrified by the ellies laying dead at waterholes after the heatwave we had in the country and it did not take rocket science to figure out that there was not enough water holes to cover the population and the distance to forage from the water was too far. It is without question that something has to be done. Without Sacrifice there is no Salvation, and Edmond Burke said "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing".

Hi Jeff, well done to you for not going for a National Parks hunt. Like you have said "with very little effort." There are more than enough elephant hunting area's out there to hunt elephant. The hunts taking place in the Zimbabwe National parks (which shouldn't even be allowed) are supposed to be Ration meat hunts for National Parks staff and only none trophy animals shot. This does not seem to be the case anymore. Then hunters wonder way they never get their trophies back home,because they are NOT exportable. Lets hope you are the start of a long list of ethical hunters to put a stop to the hunting in our great Zimbabwe National Parks.
What ever happened to ethics in hunting, now that these unscrupulous so called hunters go into a National Park to hunt just because they have a chance to KILL a 100 pound elephant. It's not right and it's not fair on the wildlife it's the only sanctuary they have.

Mr. Rogers,

I've read your statements attempting to justify participation in the park hunts. Just my opinion but it seems a weak excuse to me. Participating in something you feel is wrong in an attempt to manage how wrong it is allowed to become is not a position of honor and will ultimately prove to be of no practical effect, as you put it.

Mr williams,
Very well said!!! A National Park is a National Park. Safari area's have been set aside for sport hunting by National Parks, so why still hunt the park?? It's WRONG!

quote:

Originally posted by Craig Robinson:
Mr williams,
Very well said!!! A National Park is a National Park. Safari area's have been set aside for sport hunting by National Parks, so why still hunt the park?? It's WRONG!

Craig,

Why is it wrong? Is it a biological problem? An ethical problem?

Many posters feel that in the US,if animals such as elk need to be culled in our National Parks then sport hunters should be allowed to do it. Why are Zim Parks more sacrosanct then US Parks?

465H&H

God how I wish all our arm chair warriors on this site would put one tenth of the energy and outrage into trying to stop some of the horror that occurs daily in Zimbabwe that they put into telling the world how much they know about what is right and honorable when it comes to hunting. It would be laughable if it wasn't so tragic.

Zimbabwe is a country that is run by a Murderous sociopath who is responsible for the out right murder of thousands of people and a government made up entirely of people who have supported him and a population that has voted him into office over and over again. If you think that there is rule of law in Zimbabwe then you are either living in a dream world or have not spent much time there.

Oh well such is life. Every one with a keyboard is an expert with the soul of an angel. We are all just so ready and willing to point out for every one the one true and right way.

quote:

Originally posted by els:
God how I wish all our arm chair warriors on this site would put one tenth of the energy and outrage into trying to stop some of the horror that occurs daily in Zimbabwe that they put into telling the world how much they know about what is right and honorable when it comes to hunting. It would be laughable if it wasn't so tragic.

Zimbabwe is a country that is run by a Murderous sociopath who is responsible for the out right murder of thousands of people and a government made up entirely of people who have supported him and a population that has voted him into office over and over again. If you think that there is rule of law in Zimbabwe then you are either living in a dream world or have not spent much time there.

Oh well such is life. Every one with a keyboard is an expert with the soul of an angel. We are all just so ready and willing to point out for every one the one true and right way.

I have been trying so hard to keep my own opinions out of this, considering the parties involved...but it is getting harder to remain on the sidelines each day...