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BS - Say what you like but you don't go and cull a 100 pounder when there are plenty of selectable animals to choose from, whether they be tuskless, single or young bulls and yes, even entire herds but if common sense is allowed to prevail, even in these extreme cases will certain outstanding specimen be spared if they have joined the herd. There's a whale of a difference in culling elephants in a national park and culling camels in the Australian outback! | |||
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I didn't say only cows...read what I said above...bulls with less than desirable ivory. And...you are exactly right...there is a BIG difference between culling and ration hunting. With rations...you for sure can limit to undesirables...but with true culling of ele...it is a professional's game and entire herds may need to be killed...still...NOT the grand old tuskers which draw the parks tourists. If they go into the hunting blocks...different story...they are fairgame. Just don't take a client into a park on a ration hunt and kill a 100 lb tusker. Which...was the case I am talking about and why I am against Park hunting in Zim...besides it actually being illegal under current law. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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Martin you have been all over the web making statements that the hunts being offered in the National Parks are Illegal. You have publically slandered multiple operators and accused them of promoting illegal hunts. In the beginning these attacks were related to companies from South Africa. Now we have a respected operator from Zimbabwe in your cross hairs. Dudley has provided all the details of his planned actions and he clearly states that the permits were issued by the National Parks Authority office. To this you respond “That does not make it right”. When proof started showing up that the parks department is truly authorizing these hunts, you began to portray the hunts as a violation of the Lacy Act even though they are being sold as Non Exportable hunts. If the National Parks office issues a hunter the permit to conduct a hunt and no trophy is imported into the united states I can’t understand why this would be a violation. You have also repeatedly dodged the question about the legality of people who live outside of the US going on these hunts. I also find it interesting that your campaign against Hunting in Hwange Park began around the same time you built your photo safari lodge in the park. Are your actions for the good of Zimbabwe wildlife or for the good of your personal business investment? I have yet to see any recent Official statements from the Zimbabwe Minister claiming that the hunts being sold are illegal. Are there any officials that can back your claims? ****************************************************************** R. Lee Ermey: "The deadliest weapon in the world is a Marine and his rifle." ****************************************************************** We're going to be "gifted" with a health care plan we are forced to purchase and fined if we don't, Which purportedly covers at least ten million more people, without adding a single new doctor, but provides for 16,000 new IRS agents, written by a committee whose chairman says he doesn't understand it, passed by a Congress that didn't read it but exempted themselves from it, and signed by a President, with funding administered by a treasury chief who didn't pay his taxes, for which we'll be taxed for four years before any benefits take effect, by a government which has already bankrupted Social Security and Medicare, all to be overseen by a surgeon general who is obese, and financed by a country that's broke!!!!! 'What the hell could possibly go wrong?' | |||
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The general consensus of opinion (for many years) is that entire family units be taken out in their entirity by professional culling teams and that bulls be sport hunted and to me a 100 pounder is the perfect animal to take out because he's at the end of his life, will probably soon(ish) die of starvation when his last set of teeth wear out anyway and has already passed his genes onto the next generation. Whether the latter happens inside or outside national parks and reserves is of course a different debate but as I see it, whatever laws are made, they should be observed and of course not to do so is, (if nothing else), liable to lay any US citizen open to prosecution under the Lacey Act. Personally, I don't have a problem with sport hunting in remote parts of any game reserve but of course, it has to be properly entrenched in the law of the land. | |||
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I am going to go out on a limb here and disclose that I did (what I was told) was the last official cull hunt in Hwange. I was taken by game department personnel.This was in 2008 if I recall correctly. The guy I went with had reportedly shot over 2,000 elephants. It was incredibly interesting to go with this gentleman and his assistant. I loved it. I learned a lot. Culling is not for the faint of heart. It is dangerous and difficult. Taking out an entire family group can be heart wrenching. It is a far cry from trophy hunting. Let me give a few observations from that hunt: 1- There are massive areas in the park that the elephants have destroyed damn near everything. These areas look like they have been bombed. Any reasonably sane person should be able to tell that the elephants are over populated. 2- There were clearly some abuses by (what i was told) were South Africans. I saw carcasses by major roads and at water holes frequented by tourist. This was just flat wrong to shoot here in my book. 3- There were some legitimate "mistakes" made. The parks guy thought one particular bull was much smaller than it was. In reality it was 59.2 pounds. I did not shoot it but someone I know did. They both felt horrible about it. I can't tell you whether the proposed hunt is legal or not. However, i can tell you that the Park has way too many elephants. Provided it is legal, I see no problem with hunting them in the Park provided it is away from the tourist areas. | |||
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Lane in red above. There are 100LB tuskers that live for loonnngg time. It would be OK to wait til they are 70+ and on there last set of molars and then sell him for a 100K trophy fee to benefit the park...but that is not what happened in the case I am talking about. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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Agreed...as long as there are good guidelines set down on which animals to take...and...the guidelines are adhered to. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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Lane My comments were not in reference to yours and nor did I make any reference to a ration hunt.... therefore I feel you need to amend your post (where you quote me) to make that clear. | |||
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Steve, The program doubled my print when I told it to write red...sorry. But I am the only one talking about a 100 lb ele so I took it that you were talking about the same instance I was...in which a 100 lb tusker was shot on a ration hunt in Hwange. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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the important FACT that we zim Ph's know is that the PARKS REGULATIONS on these hunts are not being adhered to. We have seen the 'legal' hunts and the trophys taken on these hunts and they DO NOT FIT THE CRITERIA .. We were given areas outside the park to hunt and take trophys that move out of the park, why must we now chase the animals around inside their safe area. Try telling a guy that has booked a safari in Matetsi that the good trophys we wait for in the units will NOT MAKE IT OUT because some unethical ph and /or client will be shooting inside the park. If these hunts take place in the park there should be a monitoring body that makes sure all is by the book. One day your life will flash before your eyes.... make sure you do something worth watching.....! | |||
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I think most here would agree 100% with what you say. I believe there is abuse with the permits the parks department is issuing. I also believe it is more than fair for Martin or any other PH to debate the rational of why the permits are being issues. My problem is that Martin Continues to spread lies about the legality of the hunts. He has has slandered multiple operators on the show circuit this year. He is using 40 year old laws as justification for his claim. How huch has Zimbabwe changed in the last 40 years. I am glad we finally saw a reputable Zimbabwe PH stand up and offer the truth. ****************************************************************** R. Lee Ermey: "The deadliest weapon in the world is a Marine and his rifle." ****************************************************************** We're going to be "gifted" with a health care plan we are forced to purchase and fined if we don't, Which purportedly covers at least ten million more people, without adding a single new doctor, but provides for 16,000 new IRS agents, written by a committee whose chairman says he doesn't understand it, passed by a Congress that didn't read it but exempted themselves from it, and signed by a President, with funding administered by a treasury chief who didn't pay his taxes, for which we'll be taxed for four years before any benefits take effect, by a government which has already bankrupted Social Security and Medicare, all to be overseen by a surgeon general who is obese, and financed by a country that's broke!!!!! 'What the hell could possibly go wrong?' | |||
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ROSCOE, From my own research...if the hunts were contested in US courts under the Lacey Act for violation of current Zim law...I believe they would bear out to be illegal. USF&W is certainly looking at it due to the blatant abuse being reported by Park users. And...I have been shown examples of some horrific abuses that I believe even you would appall. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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I presume that the last sentence is intended to refer to Martin. I think Martin deserves a lot of credit for being willing to stand up for what he feels is right and call out abuses. In my opinion there are too many others content to hide behind the couch and privately lament what is going on without being prepared to take a stand. It takes courage to call something what it is sometimes. If this was the first time Martin took such a stand perhaps you could imply that he was doing so based on his own self interest, but his course of conduct strongly suggests otherwise. And let's be clear, some of the folks that he has called out are not operators that are above reproach. Just the opposite. Sometimes, particularly in third world countries, the line between legal and illegal is tough to discern. For example, if Mugabe and his henchmen pass a law making it "legal" to seize without compensation someone's farm that has been in their family for generations, does that make the act legal and make those that call out the abuse, slanderers? I think not. To be clear, I have never even shaken Martin's hand and introduced myself. But I wish I had. We need more people with the courage to stand up and be outspoken for what is right. Mike | |||
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Lane - Just an inquiry, but I am still confused on how the USFWS(Nazis) could prosecute these hunts under the Lacey Act? Regardless of the legality of the hunt, for the USFWS to have any legal prosecuting power, the "trophy" must reach U.S. soil, correct? For example - if I go to B.C. and illegally hunt/poach a Stone sheep, but leave the trophy in B.C./Canada, the U.S. Lacey Act has no legal recourse until I cross the international line with said illegal animal, correct? I am not disputing the ethical/legal/moral issues of hunting in Hwange, just the claim that U.S. hunters could be prosecuted under the Lacey Act? I don't see how? | |||
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Read the last 3 words!! Lacey Act Amendments of 1981 Lacey Act Amendments of 1981 (P.L. 97-79, 95 Stat. 1073, 16 U.S.C. 3371-3378, approved November 16, 1981, and as amended by P.L. 100-653, 102 Stat. 3825, approved November 14, 1988, and P.L. 98-327, 98 Stat. 271, approved June 25, 1984) These amendments repealed the Black Bass Act and sections 43 and 44 of the Lacey Act of 1900 (18 U.S.C. 43- 44), replacing them with a single comprehensive statute. Under this law, it is unlawful to import, export, sell, acquire, or purchase fish, wildlife or plants taken, possessed, transported, or sold: 1) in violation of U.S. or Indian law, or 2) in interstate or foreign commerce involving any fish, wildlife, or plants taken possessed or sold in violation of State or foreign law. Hope that helps | |||
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mjines, Thank you for your post. You are 100% correct. | |||
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Aaron, In your example...many experts (including some in USF&W) beleive that you violated the Lacey Act...by violating foreign game laws. Due to the nature of not having any evidence like animal parts...it makes the case harder and I don't think there is any case law on the matter. But...USF&W was/is making plans to prosecute people over lions that are shot in TZ that are less than 6...as it is illegal to shoot a less than 6 in TZ. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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Same here and agreed! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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(2) Purchase It is deemed to be a purchase of fish or wildlife in violation of this chapter (of the Lacey Act) for a person to obtain for money or other consideration— (A) guiding, outfitting, or other services; or (B) a hunting or fishing license or permit; for the illegal taking, acquiring, receiving, transporting, or possessing of fish or wildlife. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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I am sorry But Roscoe,Saeed,Tim and Dudley.This is just BS. This just opens another door to unethical hunting.You guys have no idea what we have to deal with on a day to day basis to try and save our wildlife.Our own National parks are the ones that are destroying our heritage with their greedy antics at the moment by allowing hunting in National parks areas.If any of you think that if a permit is issued by our parks,then it is fine to hunt them, then you are part and parcel of the decline in our wildlfe. WAKE UP IT IS WRONG!!!!!!I have personally seen a 126 and 116 pound elephant ivory at Natioanl Parks in Harare,that was shot on one of these so called ration hunts.And don't try and give me too many ele's etc etc, in the old days whole herds were taken out to reduce the population. Yes parks are short of cash.....Why??simple....misuse of funds...non payment of concessions by certain people... Get real people let's put a stop to this!!!! | |||
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Dear Mr Barnard, You are a new member on AR and a young man maybe still in your 30'S, and I would like to suggest that you be a lot more respectful to people on this forum and it would be honorable as a Zimbabwean to put your opinion across in a decent and objective way rather than telling folk that they are talking "BS" and shouting "WAKE UP ITS WRONG!!!!!" This is a discussion group on a subject which needs clarification and there have been some objective ideas on both sides of the fence and there is no reason to be rude. I do not intend to get into a dog fight over this, but I have my opinions and thoughts on it and will discuss it with anyone on a calm basis. Don't you think? Dudley Rogers Tshabezi Safaris Zimbabwe | |||
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"Honorable", I find your use of that term interesting . . . and more than a little ironic. Mike | |||
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While Pete may have come across a little "strong" and I may have put across my view in a different way the nuts and bolts of it is that he is 100% true. When the "national Parks" quotas came out several years ago on a "bidding basis" we successfuly got 5 non trophy elephant. There was a strict format to follow been non trophy bulls or cows and there was alot of emphasis on the scientific research on animals shot. We went and did 4 and was so disgusted as to what was happening that we pulled out before completing our "quota". Having collected the overies and filled in all the nessesary data on the ele cows we shot I handed it in to the warden and he said we were the very first to do that and proceeded to bin it! I also saw MANY trophy ele bulls that were shot and can assure you were exported. I bought this to the attention of our hunting association as well as the Hide which is a photographic camp close to the area we were "allocated". I also saw several trophy buff that were shot. Every trophy ele/buff I saw shot there had a South African involved with an equaly unpleasent Zimbabwean PH all in it for a quick $! I have to say as honest as our intentions were it was wrong to hunt in a park and I am afraid with the present situation in Parks , the influx of the worst of the worst South African fellows accompanied by corrupt unethical PHs from Zim the system will get abused. Stay away from Parks hunts- they are unethical and 99% of those involved are peole you certainly do not want to do buisness with. | |||
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I'm going to conduct a simple test the AR Forum to see if a clear reply to a simple question is possible. The question is: Is there a law or regulation that specifically prohibits sport hunting in a national park in Zimbabwe? If there is such a law the simple reply is: Yes! If there is not such a law, then the simple reply is: No. It would be well if someone who said "Yes", can in addition post the specific clause that prohibits sport hunting in a national park. In good hunting. Andrew McLaren Professional Hunter and Hunting Outfitter since 1974. http://www.mclarensafaris.com The home page to go to for custom planning of ethical and affordable hunting of plains game in South Africa! Enquire about any South African hunting directly from andrew@mclarensafaris.com After a few years of participation on forums, I have learned that: One can cure: Lack of knowledge – by instruction. Lack of skills – by practice. Lack of experience – by time doing it. One cannot cure: Stupidity – nothing helps! Anti hunting sentiments – nothing helps! Put-‘n-Take Outfitters – money rules! My very long ago ancestors needed and loved to eat meat. Today I still hunt! | |||
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Andrew From our act. PART IV NATIONAL PARKS 21 Purposes of national parks and duties of Minister in relation thereto (1) The purposes for which national parks are or maybe constituted under this Act shall be— (a) to preserve and protect the natural landscape and scenery therein; and (b) to preserve and protect wildlife and plants and the natural ecological stability of wild life and plant communities therein; for the enjoyment, education and inspiration of the public. (2) It shall be the function and duty of the Minister to control, manage and maintain national parks for the purposes set out in subsection (1) and, so far as is reasonable. practicable and compatible with such purposes, to provide facilities for visitors thereto. 22 National Parks (1) Each of the areas described in the First Schedule is hereby constituted a national park which shall be known by the name specified in the First Schedule. (2) Subject to this Act the President may, on the recommendation of the Board, by notice in a statutory instrument, amend the First Schedule for the purpose of— (a) constituting a new national park and specifying the name thereof: (b) changing the name of any national park; (c) adding any area to a national park; (d) subtracting any area from a national park; (e) abolishing any national park. (3) No land shall be constituted as a national park or part of a national park in terms of subsection (2) unless it is-- (a) State land; or (b) trust land and the trustees thereof have consented thereto. (4) Any notice made in terms of paragraph (a), (b) or (c) of subsection (2) shall be laid before Parliament as soon as may be after it has been published in a statutory instrument and, if a resolution is passed within the next twenty-eight days on which Parliament has sat next after the notice is laid before it requesting the President to rescind or vary the notice, it shall forthwith be rescinded or varied, as the case may be, by further notice in a statutory instrument but without prejudice to the validity of anything previously done thereunder. (5) No notice may be made in terms of paragragh (d) or (e) of subsection (2) unless the proposal to make such notice has been approved by Parliament. 23 Powers of Minister in relation to national parks (1) For the purpose of giving effect to the provisions section twenty-one the Minister shall, subject to of this Act, have power— (a) to undertake scientific investigations within a national park; and (b) to take or collect and remove for export or otherwise any specimen of wild life, fish or plant from a national park; and (c) to authorize any person— (i) to undertake any scientific investigations within a national park; and (ii) for the purposes of scientific investigations, to take or collect and remove any specimen of wild life, fish or plant from a national park; and (d) to set aside any area of a national park for special purposes, and (e) to sell, donate or otherwise dispose of, any specimen of wild life, fish or plant taken from a national park; and (f) to introduce into a national park any specimen of wild life, fish or plant: Provided that the Minister shall not introduce into a national park any wild life or plant which is not indigenous to the area in which the park is situated except into a development area set aside in terms of paragraph (k); and (g) To do all such things and to take all such steps as he may consider necessary or desirable, including management of the soil and plants, the construction of fireguards and the controlled reduction of wild life and fish populations, to ensure the security of the wild life, fish and plants within a national park and the maintenance of the wild life, fish and plants therein in a natural state; and (h) to authorize the removal of any wild life, fish or plants which may be captured, killed or picked, as the case may be, as the result of any steps taken in terms of paragraph (g); and (i) if satisfied that it will not endanger the security of the wild life, fish or plants in a national park or the maintenance of the wild life, fish or plants therein in their natural state, and that it is in the interests of management of or facilities for visitors within the park— (i) to construct air strips, roads, bridges, soil conservation works and water installations, buildings, viewing platforms, harbours and fences and to carry out such other works as he may consider necessary or desirable; (ii) to pick plants for use within the park; and (f) to authorize— (i) such measures as he may consider necessary or desirable for— A. the prevention and control of human and animal, including domestic animal diseases; or B. the control and limitation of quelea birds and locusts; or C. the eradication of weeds; within a national park; (ii) the killing or capture of any animal within a national park which is— A. injured or sick; or B. causing damage to property; or C. considered to be a danger to humans; and the disposal of such animal in such manner as he may in any particular case approve; and (k) to set aside areas within a national park as development areas for— (i) the housing of officers, employees and other persons lawfully residing in the park; (ii) gardening, recreation and other like requirements and facilities; (iii) the construction of offices, workshops, stables, pens, schools, clinics, churches and other buildings or installations that may be required in connection with the administration or maintenance of the park; (iv) the construction of hotels, restaurants, rest camps, caravan parks, camping grounds, shops, service stations and other buildings and facilities for the accommodation, benefit or enjoyment of visitors; and to restrict such housing, structures, buildings, installations or facilities in the park to such development area; and (l) to authorize officers, employees or other persons lawfully residing in a national park— 24 Prohibition and regulation of certain acts in national parks (1) Unless authorized thereto in terms of section twenty three, no person shall— (a) pick any plant in a national park; or (b) hunt any wild life or take or destroy the nest thereof in a national park; or (c) sell— (i) any animal or any part of an animal which has been hunted in or has died in or has been removed from a national park; or (ii) any fish caught in a national park: or (iii) any plant picked in a national park; or (d) except in terms of such regulations as may be prescribed-- (i) introduce into or convey in a national park any weapon or explosive or any prescribed article; or (ii) introduce into or convey or allow in a national park any animal, including a domestic or domesticated animal; or (iii) remove from a national park any animal or any part of an animal; or (iv) fish in any waters in a national park or remove from the park any fish caught in the waters of the park. (2) Any person who contravenes subsection (1) shall be guilty of an offence. martinpieterssafaris@gmail.com www.martinpieterssafaris.com " hunt as if it's your last one you'll ever be on" | |||
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According to the USFW Mr.Robert R. Gabel roddy_gabel@fws.gov Mr.David W. Hubbard david_hubbard@fws.gov It is unlawful and contravening the Lacey act to import any NON SPORT HUNTED TROPHY into the USA, according to the parks and wildlife act of 1975 ( cited above ), the minister may grant permission to hunt in the park for the following reasons Education Scientific reasons Research No mention of sport hunting. Therefore as I have mentioned before, as it may be legal to hunt in a national park, IT IS ILLEGAL to export any trophy A trophy being Any hide, hair, tooth, claw or any part thereof of any animal. Exportation of park hunted animals has occurred and hence laws have in turn been breached. martinpieterssafaris@gmail.com www.martinpieterssafaris.com " hunt as if it's your last one you'll ever be on" | |||
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Dudley has mentioned that his involvement is due to the fact that parks have bought some teak furniture, hence money is needed, although the minister has the right to issue permits, it is not in line with the act as teak furniture/ flooring etc probably does not come under education, research or science martinpieterssafaris@gmail.com www.martinpieterssafaris.com " hunt as if it's your last one you'll ever be on" | |||
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You Know Martin,Buzz, Pete, I said " and the issue needs to be dealt with by Zimbabweans in Zimbabwe with the Zimbabwean authorities," and here we are on a public forum trying to hack each other apart while the South Africans have a big smile on their faces and sneaking in behind us and being unethical and killing the 100 pounders in front of the tourists and feel nothing about it. Look guys, it is going to happen whether you like it or not and you know I am right, because you know the administration like I do, but I believe we have to get together and try to establish some control on it and stop every other man and his dog eating our grub. The biggest problem in Zim is not the Parks, its the intruders from the South. Buzz it is interesting to note that you found it ok to take up 5 elephant, and I appreciate your findings on it, but you have a first hand knowledge of what is wrong and you can be part of the repair. You also say you saw South Africans involved with unscrupulous PH's, and of course that does not surprise me as we all know they are the problem, and Martin told me that there was I think two South African companies selling these hunts at SCI, but I have not heard one bad word about them, and they are free to carry on. Yes we can leave it alone and walk away and do nothing and just let the Southern contingent do what they want, OR we can become proactive in dealing with the issue and look at the good and bad on both sides and see what we can do to make something good out of a bad deal...It can be done, we just need to take our blinkers off and get some peripheral vision. Plus I think with names like Charlton,Peters, Rogers, and Barnard we have a good start. Dudley Rogers Tshabezi Safaris Zimbabwe | |||
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  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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The below paragraph is taken directly from the Lacey Act: (2) Purchase It is deemed to be a purchase of fish or wildlife in violation of this chapter (of the Lacey Act) for a person to obtain for money or other consideration— (A) guiding, outfitting, or other services; or (B) a hunting or fishing license or permit; for the illegal taking, acquiring, receiving, transporting, or possessing of fish or wildlife. Therefore...if sport hunting is not allowed in the National Park or "illegal" by Zimbabwe law...the Lacey Act deems the taking of an illegal animal a purchase...and a violation of the Lacey Act...a difficult one to prosecute...but a violation none-the-less. Importation makes it easy for USF&W to prosecute as they have physical evidence but NOT necessary to violate the Act. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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We are now in agreement. ****************************************************************** R. Lee Ermey: "The deadliest weapon in the world is a Marine and his rifle." ****************************************************************** We're going to be "gifted" with a health care plan we are forced to purchase and fined if we don't, Which purportedly covers at least ten million more people, without adding a single new doctor, but provides for 16,000 new IRS agents, written by a committee whose chairman says he doesn't understand it, passed by a Congress that didn't read it but exempted themselves from it, and signed by a President, with funding administered by a treasury chief who didn't pay his taxes, for which we'll be taxed for four years before any benefits take effect, by a government which has already bankrupted Social Security and Medicare, all to be overseen by a surgeon general who is obese, and financed by a country that's broke!!!!! 'What the hell could possibly go wrong?' | |||
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Thanks Matin for posting the relevant sections of the Act. The next question to ask is: Does the Act give the minister the power to allow sport hunting inside a national park? Let me quote from Martin Pieters' posting:
The minister may decide that he may allow certain persons to practice trophy sport hunting within a national park as it is within his powers as he may "sell, (there is no restriction as to who he may sell, so let's say he sells to a hunting outfitter, or the manufacturer of some teak furniture that the parks needs) donate or otherwise dispose of (this is achieved by first killing the animal by sport hunting. Then the hunting outfitter's client may take the trophy and even export it? The meat is to be used for staff rations) any specimen of wild life, (that would include a trophy elephant) fish or plant taken from a national park;" IMHO the minister may reason like shown in red above and so argue that he may legally issue a permit to allow a hunting outfitter have his client sport hunt a trophy elephant in a national park. Or am I missing something? Andrew McLaren Professional Hunter and Hunting Outfitter since 1974. http://www.mclarensafaris.com The home page to go to for custom planning of ethical and affordable hunting of plains game in South Africa! Enquire about any South African hunting directly from andrew@mclarensafaris.com After a few years of participation on forums, I have learned that: One can cure: Lack of knowledge – by instruction. Lack of skills – by practice. Lack of experience – by time doing it. One cannot cure: Stupidity – nothing helps! Anti hunting sentiments – nothing helps! Put-‘n-Take Outfitters – money rules! My very long ago ancestors needed and loved to eat meat. Today I still hunt! | |||
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And IMHO...it could also be argued that he does not. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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Mr Rogers: One of the reasons that this needs to be discussed by AMERICANS is that we could end up in an American jail for violating the Lacey Act. While I can understand what you are saying, the fact of the matter is that potential jail time for a Lacey Act violation is a serious matter. Potential American client should be concerned about this issue. A previous poster discussed Lacey Act violations for shooting a lion that was not 6 years old. If USFW is willing to prosecute over something like that, what do you think they will do for illegal shooting elephants in Hwange? While the issue is in Zim, it is a serious issue for Americans as well. if I was considering such a hunt, I would have my lawyers all over this to find out if it was legal. None of us need this Lacey Act hanging over our heads. | |||
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I think we are deviating, the question is not about legal or illegal. We know that the Minister can and has used his powers to authorize park hunting. It is about right and wrong , ethical or unethical period. As Dudley has quite rightly stated, this will possibly continue so we need to put heads together to come up with a way forward where the park is not jeopardized and violations of any acts are not committed. I have several ideas and have asked for an audience with the Director General and the Ministers office, I believe there is a way forward for all parties to be happy, ethically and financially. I am personally NOT for hunting in the park, but in the same breath if I cannot be part of stopping it, I would rather see a Zimbabwean being honest and open in his own country where he can be prosecuted for violations, than a foreigner that may hit and run! Once I have had audience with those in power, I hope to be able to shed light on my findings and answer any questions. martinpieterssafaris@gmail.com www.martinpieterssafaris.com " hunt as if it's your last one you'll ever be on" | |||
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For the benefit of those Gentlemen living beyond the African shores it has to be realized and accepted that Ministerial powers have been bestowed upon that person (Minister) by the President of the respective country and quite frankly are unquestionable. The Minister therefore is empowered to issue a license or permit (call it what you wish) to take, dead or alive, whatever species of game is described on that permit/license in any area of the territory as the Minister decrees; to be exported or otherwise. Having said this, I very much doubt that any self-respecting Minister will issue such permits for tourist hunting - the norm is for such privilege to be extended to visiting dignitaries or collectors (Museums). The shooting of a 100lb elephant for rations/culling is in my opinion total BS and unethical - the operator has dabbled with the technicalities to suit his objectives. | |||
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Mr Shores, at no stage did I say that Americans should not discuss the issue, and I have no problem with that at all. What I am saying (and I see a positive post by Martin) is that we as Zimbo's need to get our heads together and iron it out for our best intrest, something an American can not do. I hope I did not offend you, and I do not think lawyers are required at this stage as if we can work together on it together maybe we will succeed. Dudley Rogers Tshabezi Safaris Zimbabwe | |||
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While I am all for the good honest people of Zimbabwe coming together in the name of good hunting practices and conservation...I don't beleive the Mantra of "it's going to happen whether you like it or not" is the correct way of looking at it. Back in 1990 in the Republic of Texas...a true Texan Gentleman...Rancher/oil man Clayton Williams was running for Texas Governor. He was thought to win by a landslide as his Democratic opponent was a liberal woman by the name of Ann Richards. Mr. Williams was being interviewed in a cow-camp on his ranch during a thunderstorm and was asked what he thought about the bad weather. He said: "ahh hell it is kinda like rape and you can't do anything about it so you might as well lay back and enjoy it". He lost what everybody in Texas thought was an UN-loosable election due to the negative feed-back from that comment. So bind together and do the right thing...don't do something because someone says: "it is going to happen whether you like it or not". ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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Martin well said,our point as you pointed out it that this is unethical.Lets hope you can get a meeting with the DG and relevant ministers. | |||
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