I know that there's a giant thread over on the Big Bores forum and I've looked through much of it. I'm wondering who has had real hunting experience with Cutting Edge Bullets.

Specifically, I'm interesting in the .375 ESP Raptor bullets. These bullets are only 235 grains. They have other raptor bullets that are 275 grains, but they can't take the raptor tip nor can they be turned over and fired as solids like the ESP bullets.

I wonder how that 235gr bullet would behave on cape buffalo. Seems like you'd have to push it pretty fast. Let's hear some stories.

I don't want to start a spitting contest about Barnes vs Nosler vs CEB vs Northfork. Just want to hear some personal experience.

One buff with a CEB, a 460 grain from my 470. It never took a step. I believe it to be a good bullet, definitely different. This is the entrance hole.

Last year i took:


Elephant- 350 gr 416 solid
Buffalo- 325 gr 416 non-con (also impalla, kudu,zebra and wildebeast)

Lion - 295 gr 458 non-con

havent used the raptors, but I sure love the CEB concept.

SSR

Last year I took a tuskless with the 577NE and 750gr CEB solid. Buffalo bull with both the 750gr solid and 700gr Non-Cons. With the 9.3X74R, using either the 285gr CEB solid or 255gr Non-Con, I took Lion, Kudu x 2, Warthog, Duiker, Klipspringer, Grysbok. All performed well. I'll be using them again this December in the 9.3 for leopard and bait as well as the Non-Cons in the 500NE. I'm using the North Fork 570gr solid in the 500NE for elephant bull this year only because I want to try that bullet out. No complaints whatsoever with the CEBs.

Last year, I shot a buff with my 404 and a CEB non-con. It went about 15 yards and dropped dead - no death bellow, no twitch, just plain dead. But it certainly helps to shoot them in the right place.

The "non-con" is the same as the Raptor, right? Hollow point that shears off 6 petals?
I noticed that now they have a thick-skinned Safari Raptor in 375 that shears off three larger petals.

I bet they work great.

Just as well as any of the other quality copper bullets from several manufacturers.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
I bet they work great.

Just as well as any of the other quality copper bullets from several manufacturers.

Saeed, I'm possibly reading your post wrong, but the CEB's are brass, not copper. Don't know if you meant to compare bullets of similar composition, or if you were simply stating the superior performance of today's monos!

quote:

Originally posted by Ropati:

I wonder how that 235gr bullet would behave on cape buffalo. Seems like you'd have to push it pretty fast. Let's hear some stories.

When using light for cal. monometals one gains the required momentum by running them faster.

CEB claims to be a low bore resistance projectile design.

I have asked if CEB can be loaded like other proprietary brand low bore resistance, design monometals.
The responce/recommendation I got was to, lower the start loads and work up.

Which is in stark contrast to other established bullet companies like GS custom, who have done the necessary study and testing
to confidently recommend you load them in the following manner:


from GS-Custom: http://www.techfund.co.za/GSCBulletBasics.asp

"Start load development with the bullet touching the rifling if throat, magazine box and case dimensions will allow it.
HV and FN bullets do not raise pressure levels like jacketed lead and standard and grooved monometal bullets do, when seated against the rifling.
Reloaders must understand that GSC drive band bullets, that are started with conventional bullet start loads, will produce less speed than conventional bullets and will often not even seal the case.
Close to a similar weight, conventional bullet, max load is usually a good place to start a drive band bullet but it remains a start load .
Just as you would up the powder charge when going to a lighter bullet of similar construction, because of the lower resistance to acceleration, the powder charge for drive band bullets must be increased, for the same reason.
This does not mean that we recommend maximum HV bullet loads across the board. The reloader chooses what pressure level he wants to work with and accepts the extra speed that he gains with HV or FN bullets as a bonus, whatever it is.
Develop the speed of your load first. Once the desired speed is achieved, then tune the accuracy of the grouping by experimenting with overall cartridge length.
Trying to do both at the same time will require more bullets than separating the two elements."

Unfortunate I cannot find any CEB supplied load instructions that recommend the same load development technique as GSC.
That could be because CEB cannot be, or they never bothered to find out before releasing them.

quote:

Originally posted by Ropati:
The "non-con" is the same as the Raptor, right? Hollow point that shears off 6 petals?
I noticed that now they have a thick-skinned Safari Raptor in 375 that shears off three larger petals.

The Safari Raptor and Raptor are different bullets IIRC. The Safari Raptor is not designed as a Non-Con on one end and BBW#13 Solid on the other. It's a Non-Con only. The ESP Raptor's can be shot with either end forward depending on whether or not you want the solid or Non-Con performance.

Yes, in the .375, they are making a special DG version that has 3 larger petals to shed instead of the standard 6 petal design. This also applies to the 9.3 special DG Non-Con (or Safari Raptor as it's now called) as well. I carried the standard Non-Con, DG Non-Con, and solid for my 9.3x74R last year, just in case I needed to switch to that rifle for taking my buffalo instead of the 577NE. In order to keep things straight and not confuse the two bullet types, I took a permanent red marker and marked the 3 petal bullets by coloring and shading them red. The standard 6 petal bullets (and solids) I left in their natural brass color without markings. Worked very well and was never confused as to which bullet I had in the ammo carrier or chamber.

Also, just to clarify, the 3 petal design is really for buffalo. Lion, being a DG animal, is still better suited for the 6 petal design and is what I used to take my Shumba. It was devastating on him! I'll be going after leopard in 11 weeks with the same rifle and loading and I'm 100% confident both will be more than up to the task, as long as I do my part!!

Just looked at their website, they look like copper to me.

And some in brass.

My thinking is that any bullet made of harder material than lead, and has a front part that breaks off while the rest of it becomes a solid is going to do exactly the same thing.

Whether made of copper or brass.

I have had clients use CEB Solids in 500 NE very successfully on Buffalo hunts. The non con Bullets I'm not sold on for Buffalo. I cant get my mind around a bullet that's made to "fragment" for Buffalo. Petals that fold open and mushroom like on the Barnes X design work great , although I have seen a petal break off on occasion. On cats , the best bullets I've ever used were the Lion Loads made by A Square. They were amazing. I believe A Square are no longer in Business ? Anyone know the deal on that ?

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
Just looked at their website, they look like copper to me.

And some in brass.

My thinking is that any bullet made of harder material than lead, and has a front part that breaks off while the rest of it becomes a solid is going to do exactly the same thing.

Whether made of copper or brass.

Saeed,

They do make copper bullets as well, but the VAST majority of commentary concerning CEB bullets here on AR have focused on the "Safari" type bullets, being the BBW#13 Solid, Non-Cons (now called Safari Raptor), and ESP Raptor (one end a Non-Con with the other being a solid). All of those are of brass construction.

There are quite a number of "in the field" reports here on AR concerning performance of the brass "safari" bullets, including outstanding performance of the Non-Cons on buffalo and solids on elephant.

I think RIP did range testing with some of the copper bullets, the MTH IIRC, but I can't remember any hunting reports with the copper bullets.

quote:

Originally posted by Trax:

Unfortunate I cannot find any CEB supplied load instructions that recommend the same load development technique as GSC.
That could be because CEB cannot be, or they never bothered to find out before releasing them.

Trax,

A few months back I began thinking of using the 145 gr ESP Raptor in my 300 WM as both a soft and solid with big and little critters on my menu in June. I contacted CEB and was sent a pile of load data from a guy named, Ken, with probably a dozen different powders. The load data has the same format as Quickload, which I was told will be offered via Quickload at some point in the future.

I believe CEB likely has the starting load information you desire, you just gotta ask for it.

Sept "13" took a Tuskless with my 450 NE using a 480gr CEB solid at 2150fps and a Buff with my 400H&H and a 400gr NC (Safari Raptor)at 2450fps. Both animals were one shot kills.
Planning on taking them too Australia on a Buffalo cull hunt next Aug.

This year's safari was the first experience I had with the CEB NonCon. I used a .416 Rem on my Cape Buffalo with very dramatic results. At the shot, which was through the top of the heart at 50 yards, the bull humped up and took 3 jumps and fell over. I made a poor shot on a warthog with the 416 and it required another shot to finish it but the internal damage was incredible. Then I shot an impala with a .535 gr Non Con out of the .500 Nitro. Same results, damage galore and a dead impala. I'm trying them again, and again, and again.........
Accurate, fast for caliber and devastating.

Sounds like some good results.

Graybird, did you ever try those in your 300WM?
Has anyone tried them in a medium bore?
I think I might feel a little reluctant tossing a 235gr solid at a buff. It sounds like the light for caliber 235gr .375 ESP Raptor would do the trick on buff as long as shot placement was good.

Keep the stories coming.

I have used the 6 petal 375 version (this was before the 3 petal version was offered) on buffalo in AU. The petals were not big enough for any real penetration, most were just under the skin. The body of the bullet did however quickly kill all the buffalo I shot with it.
I called CEB and we spoke about this, a few months latter the 3 petal version was available. I have not had the opportunity to try these new bullets yet.

I used the solid 375 bullet to take 3 tuskless elephant cows this year with excellent results.

The bullets were pushed a little over 2800fps using the V-C 375 Rimmed cartridge.

quote:

Originally posted by graybird:
... I contacted CEB and was sent a pile of load data from a guy named, Ken, with probably a dozen different powders. The load data has the same format as Quickload, which I was told will be offered via Quickload at some point in the future.
I believe CEB likely has the starting load information you desire, you just gotta ask for it.

Its much easier just to seat a GScustom-HV against the lands and use any commonly available cupcore bullet maximum load recommendation,
-as the safe starting load for a same weight GScHV....and work-Up from there.

I used the thick skinned (3 petal) designed .375 non con (275 grain) CEB on my June buffalo hunt in Zimbabwe. The bullet took out the top of the heart and both lungs. I backed it up with the CEB 300 gr solid which hit the left hip as the buffalo tried to run away. It did not get far, and went down about 50 feet from where it was first hit. The hole in the heart was most impressive. We were only able to recover one petal and the main portion of the bullet.
I too, was concerned about loading data, but I called CEB and they were very helpful with their recommendations. Their suggested recipes also turned out to be very accurate.
I know my experience is only one example, but I was very happy with the results and will certainly take CEB's on my next safari.

Edod-
Thanks for sharing that.

quote:

Originally posted by Ropati:
Sounds like some good results.

Graybird, did you ever try those in your 300WM?
Has anyone tried them in a medium bore?
I think I might feel a little reluctant tossing a 235gr solid at a buff. It sounds like the light for caliber 235gr .375 ESP Raptor would do the trick on buff as long as shot placement was good.

Keep the stories coming.

No chance on trying them out yet. I took them with me to Oklahoma a few weeks back to help a friend with some elk depredation tags he had for his corn. No luck though getting a shot.

I've got a bear tag in my pocket that I'm currently trying to fill, no luck there either to-date.

I've got a couple other opportunities to use them this fall between mule deer here in Colorado and whitetails in Oklahoma. I usually choose a different caliber for the above deer hunts, but want to see what they do before crossing the pond in June.

quote:

Originally posted by Trax:

quote:

Originally posted by graybird:
... I contacted CEB and was sent a pile of load data from a guy named, Ken, with probably a dozen different powders. The load data has the same format as Quickload, which I was told will be offered via Quickload at some point in the future.
I believe CEB likely has the starting load information you desire, you just gotta ask for it.

Its much easier just to seat a GScustom-HV against the lands and use any commonly available cupcore bullet maximum load recommendation,
-as the safe starting load for a same weight GScHV....and work-Up from there.

I understand your point, but all the data I needed was no more than an email way. Much like your starting load you dug out of a book or some other source.

quote:

Originally posted by graybird:


I understand your point, but all the data I needed was no more than an email way. Much like your starting load you dug out of a book or some other source.

Would you mind posting an example of a 'start load' as recommended by CEB?

Or just confirm if it begins mildly like a typical cupcore start load[with same/very similar weight bullet],
or if they openly recommend begining with something equal to a maximum cupcore load.

GSC to my knowledge, is the only low bore friction bullet design[HV], that confidently recommends
a person begin by;
1./ loading against the lands
2./ using any reloading book cupcore'max' load, as a simple safe start point for load development.

With most other hunting bullets that would be an utterly foolish approach..and would result in disaster.
Not all 'multiple relief groove/multiple drive band' bullets are the same.

quote:

Originally posted by Trax:

quote:

Originally posted by graybird:


I understand your point, but all the data I needed was no more than an email way. Much like your starting load you dug out of a book or some other source.

Would you mind posting an example of a 'start load' as recommended by CEB?

Or just confirm if it begins mildly like a typical cupcore start load[with same/very similar weight bullet],
or if they openly recommend begining with something equal to a maximum cupcore load.

GSC to my knowledge, is the only low bore friction bullet design[HV], that confidently recommends
a person begin by;
1./ loading against the lands
2./ using any reloading book cupcore'max' load, as a simple safe start point for load development.

With most other hunting bullets that would be an utterly foolish approach..and would result in disaster.
Not all 'multiple relief groove/multiple drive band' bullets are the same.

IMHO, it is an utterly foolish approach by GSC as well. As you say not all multiple drive band bullets are the same. Any one recommending any bullet be started at any max load in any load book is not only irresponsible for their own bullet, but does not take into consideration that people reading that recommendation may transfer that recommendation to all bore riders. Legally they would not be responsible for that mistake made by a loader but morally they would in my opinion. just as you have repeated there recommendation, every time it is repeated, the grater the chance of someone thinking it applies to all bore riders, and some will, sooner or later, transfer it other types as well.

I don't care what is recommended by GSC, even with their bullets, I will back off some for starting load development! That is simply the prudent way to start load development no matter what bullet is being used!

.........................Opinion vary however, but the above is mine, and is what I will recommend to anyone who asks my opinion.

..................................

I use CEB in my big bores and my 300WM. In the 300 I shoot the 140-145 raptor, cant remember off top of my head which weight it is. When bumped out against the lands I truly shoot .1 off bipod prone at 100 yds. I backed off the lands just a bit as I was getting some sticking when things warmed up, and the groups opened up to .2. Bullets are screaming along pretty quick, faster than my barnes where in sam weight bullet, not by alot say 150fps. The big thing was the tissue damage with them. I shot a big mule deer in the Alberta prairies last nov. shot was at 10 degree temp, 476 yds and a buck walking away from me going up the canyon across from us. He was at a very hard angle away. I hit him a bit in front of the shoulder missing all lungs and exited the neck on the opposite side. Of course the core of the slug exited, but so did 4 of the 6 petals through 18-20" of muscle. He ran up the canyon onto the top, thank goodness for that, and died. Blood was everywhere, I assume I cut a jugular, not for sure, but the tissue damage in the neck was massive.

On big bore, I shoot. 500 MDM and this past trip to Zim I used 460 non cons, safari raptors, on my first shot at buff. I hot that bull on a full run behind the left shoulder and it got some lung, crushed the spine and made it to just inside the skin in front of the right shoulder. So that non con still penetrated guess nearly 30". The 500 grain solids blow through ele sideways and one penetrated frontal shot just below brain all the way to the hip bone in the back!

It is my favorite bullet!

quote:

Originally posted by Trax:
Would you mind posting an example of a 'start load' as recommended by CEB?

Or just confirm if it begins mildly like a typical cupcore start load[with same/very similar weight bullet],
or if they openly recommend begining with something equal to a maximum cupcore load.

I don't have time to scan and post the starting loads, but I will give a couple of examples.

From CEB all of their recommendations say, "You must start 5 grains under listed, and work up slowly":
H4350 start 67.9 gr and max 72.9 gr
RL19 start 70.3 gr and max 75.3 gr
Varget start 61.4 gr and max 66.4 gr
AA4350 start 67.0 gr and max 72.0 gr

From Hornady book 7th ed (first book I grabbed) looking at 150 grain bullets:
H4350 start 58.4 gr and max 73.9 gr
RL19 start 66.8 gr and max 76.4 gr
Varget start 51.3 gr and max 62.1 gr
AA4350 start 60.6 gr and max 73.4 gr

Also, I counted the number of powders CEB provided data for and it was a total of 16. The Hornady book only listed 12. These are the only four powders that are listed in each recommendation.

The loads are very similar with the exception of the Varget within the examples given. The Hornady book seems to start much lower than the CEB bullet recommendation; thereby, potentially increasing component costs. However, I have the piece of mind using the CEB data that something shouldn't go wrong provided I follow the outlined charge recommendations.

You can use any starting load listed in reloading manuals for the same weight bullet with no issues. Normaly you will need a grain or two more powder to get same velocity as cup & core bullet because of the less bearing surface of the banded CEB bullet.

Real world shooting game with these, I shot the first game ever with the CEB solids, bull elephant and buffalo with a 577 and 750 grain solids. I've shot deer with 40 grain 223 ESP Raptors up to Asian water buffalo with a 500 NE. I'll say these bullets work great on game. The 475 grain .510 in my 500 NE was the most effective bullet I've ever used on buffalo. All bases exited and none of the buffalo went more than 20 yards after being shot. Most dropped in their tracks. I personally shot 7 buffalo and backed up on several others. Saw several buffalo hammered by Michael's 475 and 500 Super Short rifles firing 320 to 350 grain Safari Raptors (Non Cons). Saw a red deer shot in Norway through the front of the chest in the lower neck meat with a 145 grain Raptor from a 300 Win Mag. Deer dropped in its tracks from 225 yards away. I found one petal in the spine which is why it dropped. If it would have been a cup and core bullet it would have been a long tracking job as main bullet just went through meat. I shot a Roe deer with a 100 grain 6.5 Raptor out of a 260AI and petals were found in hide on off side about 4 inches away from exit of base.

Sam

Ropati

Good thread, get to the meat of the issue and the very reason for that BIG THREAD over on Big Bores.....

In the Beginning.......

We named them BBW#13s..... NonCons..... For Non Conventional, as they do NOT adhere to "Conventional Wisdom or Rules"....................

Now they have real and proper names..... Safari Raptor, ESP Raptor (Enhanced System Projectile), ER Raptor (Extended Range) and so forth. There are now copper raptors, handgun raptors and so forth, the CEB website will set you straight on the names and such.

Sam and I were very heavily involved in the Safari Solids and the Safari Raptors, that were developed right here. The first tests of the ESP Raptors were here as well. Many 1000s of rounds downrange and many 1000s of hours of test work done to tweak perfection. Today, most of the new test work on the newest Raptors are taking place at CEB... Thank Goodness! These bullets are built for Terminal Field Performance from the ground up, by SHOOTERS and HUNTERS that need them in the field...... Not by a F**K**G Accountant that is only concerned with sales... PERFORMANCE is the key, and by damned that's what they do, both in all of the Test work done, and in every instance in the field.

How do I know? Been there, seen it, done it. To date since the development of the NonCon... Safari Raptor and ESP Raptors, I have taken 87+ Animals from Impala to Elephant, buffalo, wildebeast, zebra, hippo, and many others. I have personally seen another 40+ animals taken with the NonCon's, I have personal knowledge and reports from the field on many many more.

To a man, the first time they see the internal destruction caused by a Safari Raptor, or other raptors the saying goes like this.......

"I have never seen anything like this in my Life"

Sam and I have an ongoing laugh at that comment, made by several Professional Hunters all over Africa, and Australia............ And everyone else in between, including ourselves....

Here is what happens. Now if You only observe the outside damage on larger species, all you will see is a caliber hole in, and a caliber hole out, with some high velocity you might see somewhat larger, but not by much. Your first impressions would be, this bullet did not open up! This of course going back to what you know about conventional bullets, and does not apply here with this bullet.

Open your animal up! What you will see on entry is that depending on the animal and size of course, a large Entrance, large caliber sometimes the size of your fist, small calibers like 9.3 2-3 inches across. This occurs at 1.5-2 inches once under the skin, this explosive action is caused by the "Blades" shearing off the main Bullet. It is explosive and devastating.

Once Shear occurs, then for 3-5 inches of bullet travel those "Blades" are still close to the main bullet. As any bullet passes through aqueous tissue, this tissue expands, then contracts back after the bullet passes. These 6 BLADES are tearing, ripping, that tissue for the first 3-5 inches of bullet travel after shear, causing even more destruction of tissue, and in some cases tremendous cavities, in comparison with conventional. As the main bullet continues its forward motion, the BLADES begin to move away from center, slicing and dicing, becoming projectiles on their own accord. These blades DO NOT PUSH their way through, they do not have enough mass to do that, they SLICE and Dice their way to deeper penetration, this is why I call them BLADES, and not petals.....

The main Blunt Trauma Bullet is now a caliber size WADCUTTER, that continues to penetrate and destroy tissue. It is now a solid, full caliber, drives deep and straight, and in most cases will exit nearly all broadside shots. We LOVE EXITS...... Two Holes in and out.

In some cases of smaller animals up to say 250 or so pounds, most all the blades go to the other side of the animal, finding them in the chest wall cavity, and depending on caliber many of these blades will actually EXIT broadside animals as well.

These BLADES destroy and cut vessels, tissues and anything they come in contact, and as Sam knows some have even entered the SPINE and put an animal completely down just from a BLADE.

NO CONVENTIONAL BULLET WILL EVER PENETRATE AS DEEP as a NonCon. Even Light For Caliber NonCons penetrate deeper than the heaviest of caliber Conventionals.......

There are 3 Factors that makes a bullet successful in the field, and therefore transfers that success to US, the Hunter.........

In Order....

1. Penetration
2. Penetration
3. Penetration

If You have PENETRATION........ You CANNOT FAIL...............

Jan Dumon..............

quote:

The non con Bullets I'm not sold on for Buffalo. I cant get my mind around a bullet that's made to "fragment" for Buffalo.

Not sure, but if you know Andrew Schoeman, give Andrew a call or drop him a note and let him tell you about BUFFALO being hit with proper Safari Raptors in any given caliber. And of course, your first hunter that uses a NonCon Raptor, then you will see for yourself, and no longer have a problem with your mind..... LOL........ Andrew has seen several buffalo go down to the NonCons. There is NOTHING on the planet that causes so much destruction, and penetration to back that up.

That Lion Load you refer to will get someone killed........... Perfect Shot, I am sure it works, but where this is so different is "PENETRATION" and will come up short.....



Now, let me tell you about RAT GUNS and RAT CALIBERS.... 9.3 and 375 anything. If you keep these rat calibers to plains game and thin skinned game, then the 6 blade version is incredible. I used my own 9.3 B&M on several plains game species, zebra wildebeast and such last year. In some cases it would turn them upside down on the spot with legs kicking up in the air.

Now you think this is so good, I will shoot some buffalo with it too and watch buffalo turn upside down and kick their legs in the air..... HA HA HA........... Buffalo are not plains game and they are NOT IMPRESSED at all with RAT GUNS and RAT CALIBERS. Oh sure, you can kill them with one, but they are not going to take much notice of it. Shoot one in the shoulder, it will run for whatever distance, and if you hit the heart or vitals it is going to die. But it won't know that until its taken a run for it. Best start out with a 416 + and even then buffalo are HARD TO IMPRESS.

As Caliber drops then blade size is smaller. Even though they slice, these lighter blades have a hard time carrying through large muscles encountered with buffalo. Kebco had concerns about this on his Australian buffalo and 375 caliber Raptors. We spoke about it. And just so happens I was on my way in a couple of weeks with a 9.3 B&M to Australia, so Dan and I spoke about this, and in a week I had the new 3 blade version to try in Australia, which I did. Yes, the 3 blades made it through to the vitals on buffalo. But I was not impressed with Rat caliber performance on buffalo. If you expect buffalo to turn topsy turvey with a rat caliber, get ready to be disappointed, no matter what bullet you use. I quit messing with the 9.3 B&M after 3-4 buffalo and went to another experimental cartridge at that time the 475 B&M with a 420 gr NonCon, which did a hell of a lot better.

Recently we developed a couple of really great bullets in 416 and 458 caliber. In 416 a 225 gr Raptor and in 458 caliber a 250 gr Raptor. Wow you say, Light For Caliber. Hell who even heard of either of these in these calibers.... ????

Well heres the jest of the matter the 250 gr Raptor in 458 caliber is a HAMMER for ANY THIN SKINNED ANIMAL ON THE PLANET! Penetration on Zebra, wildebeast, and similar size animals? Exits, and destruction in between incredible. I even shot a cow buffalo lung shot and it made it to the far side under the skin.. Do NOT DO THIS AT HOME.... The 250 Socom in 458 is a true and proper any thin skinned game bullet, including big bear, lion, and would turn leopards inside out, but for BUFFALO use a proper Safari Raptor, 420 gr or 450 gr with its matching solids.

How about 225 gr Raptor in 416? Well I just returned from Australia, and shot 10 or so herd reduction cow buffalo with it, and in many cases shoulder shots I had exits, and no buffalo survived, escaped and no prisoners taken. But, This is NOT A BUFFALO BULLET, but a perfect thin skinned everything, bears, lions and leopards included. Again, in caliber, use the heavier Safari Raptors designed for buffalo. I was testing to the max with both of these bullets and had success on buffalo.... If you do that, everything else is easy in comparison.

Load data? Ken at CEB can help you get started and is more than happy to do so. As with any bullet, these are no big mystery to load for, start safe, work you way up, just as you would do anything else. You will have great advantages with these bullets as with the 4 bands we reduce the bearing surface, which in turn reduces pressures. How do I know? I run pressure tests here as well and have 1000s of rounds over to prove it in many given cartridges and calibers.

Downsides? There are none. There is no HIGH velocity that will cause this bullet to fail, none that we are capable of getting to with any rifle we might take to the field. Low Velocity? Worst thing that can occur is if you go below LVSP..... Low Velocity Shear Point. What happens then? Your bullet becomes a BBW#13 Solid and will penetrate like one. Now, how can you possibly fail, if you have penetration? The only thing you loose is that devastating trauma inflicted by the shear, the blades, and the continued Blunt Trauma Bullet. You do not loose penetration.

Now I really must go to work and try to earn a living..........

Later

Michael

My first use of CEBs was on a herd cow elk here in Colorado. She Was BIG. Bullet was .375 caliber, I think 235 weight. Upon opening, my partners and I found "jello" in the chest area. Impressive damage in the chest cavity and total penetration of the bullet base. Yeah, .375 would be considered overkill by most hunters, but I just had to try it.

Since then have used other calibers of CEBs and have had the same results. One of the best things about CEBs is there accuracy. It has been great in my bolt rifles, but the most surprising was in my Browning lever action rifle, .450 Marlin caliber, throated out to allow more powder room in the case. Three shot groups, more often than not, had three holes touching, or slight overlapping, at 100 yds. That was with four different bullet weights. Now, I'm not saying yours will do the same, but accuracy was improved in the rifles I shot them in and in friends' rifles.

I'm going back to my coffee.

Use what you are comfortable with. I use Accubond in the 300RUM as they have never let me down and use the 300gr TSX in the 375 and it has never let me down. Not switching until they quit making them or something bad happens.

Any one in New Zealand who would part with some 416 & 9.3 CEB bullets???

Please???

I've used the CEB solids and non-cons on three safaris in a variety of calibers for PG and DG, including 3 Elephants, and have been very impressed with them. They are a hammer on everything and the non-cons (raptors?) are devastating on PG.

These CEB bullets are now my onlybullets and have replaced the Swift A-Frame and Barnes solids.

MacD37

quote:

IMHO, it is an utterly foolish approach by GSC as well. As you say not all multiple drive band bullets are the same. Any one recommending any bullet be started at any max load in any load book is not only irresponsible for their own bullet, but does not take into consideration that people reading that recommendation may transfer that recommendation to all bore riders. Legally they would not be responsible for that mistake made by a loader but morally they would in my opinion. just as you have repeated there recommendation, every time it is repeated, the grater the chance of someone thinking it applies to all bore riders, and some will, sooner or later, transfer it other types as well.

I don't care what is recommended by GSC, even with their bullets, I will back off some for starting load development! That is simply the prudent way to start load development no matter what bullet is being used!

We go to great lengths to prevent reloaders from using our data for other makes of bullets. As Trax stated in his post: With most other hunting bullets that would be an utterly foolish approach..and would result in disaster. Not all 'multiple relief groove/multiple drive band' bullets are the same. On our load data page this warning is posted twice in red. Once at the head of the page and again before the reader clicks the button to access the load data tables.

Do not use the data below for any other type of bullet. This data only applies to GS Custom HV, FN and SP bullets with drive bands.

Once the load data tables are accessed, the same warning appears again, in large type and in red, at the start of every load data table.

Any reloader who transfers our load data to other makes after all this, should not be reloading, but of course we all know reloaders who will start at any maximum they can find anyway. At least, with GSC drive band bullets, they will not get into trouble as they would when loading with another make.

There is a simple test that anyone can do when comparing bullets for pressure. There is no need to resort to pressure equipment and strain gauges for this comparison. Load same weight bullets from a variety of manufacturers with identical charges and then measure the speed. The bullet that records the highest speed, also has the highest combination of engraving pressure and friction in the barrel.

Labelling GSC as irresponsible and utterly foolish indicates that you have no experience with GSC bullets and disregard manufacturers recommendations. The only result that starting at cup and core bullet start loads with GSC drive band bullets will have is that you will use more components for load development. It would be morally irresponsible of GSC if we allowed that, rather than give sound advice that is based on our testing of the last 15 years.

Maybe GSC is really doing something that is different from what other manufacturers are doing.

quote:

Originally posted by Gerard:


We go to great lengths to prevent reloaders from using our data for other makes of bullets.
On our load data page this warning is posted twice in red. Once at the head of the page and again before the reader clicks the button to access the load data tables.

Do not use the data below for any other type of bullet. This data only applies to GS Custom HV, FN and SP bullets with drive bands.

Once the load data tables are accessed, the same warning appears again, in large type and in red, at the start of every load data table.

Any reloader who transfers our load data to other makes after all this, should not be reloading,

A person that missed or ignored that highly obvious & clear Warning, would probably also struggle with understanding or accepting GSC-HV design & development.
& one would sincerely hope that they stay right-away from any attempt whatsoever at home reloading.

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:

[QUOTE]IMHO, it is an utterly foolish approach by GSC as well. As you say not all multiple drive band bullets are the same. Any one recommending any bullet be started at any max load in any load book is not only irresponsible for their own bullet, but does not take into consideration that people reading that recommendation may transfer that recommendation to all bore riders. Legally they would not be responsible for that mistake made by a loader but morally they would in my opinion. just as you have repeated there recommendation, every time it is repeated, the grater the chance of someone thinking it applies to all bore riders, and some will, sooner or later, transfer it other types as well.

I would not install 400km/h rated rubber on an average design car and then assume the car is safe & good for 400kmh.
nor install rubber not manufacturer developed,tested & speed-rated high enough, for the savage weapon-like Porsche-GT2rs at max speed.

Anyone silly enough to loosely assume regarding different rifle projectiles [cupcore or Multi-driveband mono] and handloading a firearm,
rather than carefully reading/confirming & sensibly following the individual bullet manufactures recommendations, is an utter fool.

The GSC-HV loading-guide & safety warning, is no more difficult to understand or follow,
than any other individual loading-guide or safety warning, applicable to reloading.

Sensible types do not foolhardily assume they can load 225gn HornadySpireP,225gnNP and 225gnSwift all to the same max powder charge.
Likewise,sensible types do not foolhardily assume they can load NF or TSX, the same way GSC recommends one load develop their unique 'HV' design.

Properly educated types know & accept that different design motor vehicles,aircraft,motorcycles,vessels,etc...and whats fitted to them,
can result in varying [notably different] startup/performance/operating/safety - parameters and procedures.
and hence well understand that they may require and will safely tolerate/accept, different methods &/or levels of input.
WHY is it then, so hard to understand & accept, that it can be the same with regard to uniquely different hunting bullet designs?

What is completely acceptable with some highly developed vehicles, aircraft, firearms and projectiles, may well prove to be catastrophic,
when inappropriately applied to some inferior/different/lesser design.

quote:

Originally posted by Gerard:
MacD37



We go to great lengths to prevent reloaders from using our data for other makes of bullets. As Trax stated in his post: With most other hunting bullets that would be an utterly foolish approach..and would result in disaster. Not all 'multiple relief groove/multiple drive band' bullets are the same. On our load data page this warning is posted twice in red. Once at the head of the page and again before the reader clicks the button to access the load data tables.

Do not use the data below for any other type of bullet. This data only applies to GS Custom HV, FN and SP bullets with drive bands.

The above was not what I was responding to Gerard! The post I was responding to did not post the warnings you posted above. That was my whole point WORD OF MOUTH doesn’t make the warnings you posted as is evident in this thread. Every time a thing is posted by second and third posters things are left out, till down the road the total meaning is totally up side down! Eventually someone will take one of the posts to mean any bullet is now safe to start at max in the loading books.

quote:

Gerard

Labelling GSC as irresponsible and utterly foolish indicates that you have no experience with GSC bullets and disregard manufacturers recommendations.

You are correct that I have no experience with your bullets because they were so hard to come by here in Texas. However I do have long experience with bore rider type bullets of other makers, and some made by me in both brass and copper, and even many years ago I made some myself, after modifying some of the old Barnes Super Solids by cutting the relief ridges (pressure rings) in the groove dia of that bullet to reduce pressure. So I have used this type bullets for many years.

I'm sorry if I twisted your Knickers, but I’m sure you will get over it, if not then that is just the way the mop flops!
…………………………………………………………………………….............................................. BYE!.

MacD37

You responded to the post made by Trax.

quote:

GSC to my knowledge, is the only low bore friction bullet design[HV], that confidently recommends
a person begin by;
1./ loading against the lands
2./ using any reloading book cupcore'max' load, as a simple safe start point for load development.

With most other hunting bullets that would be an utterly foolish approach..and would result in disaster.
Not all 'multiple relief groove/multiple drive band' bullets are the same.

With:

quote:

IMHO, it is an utterly foolish approach by GSC as well. As you say not all multiple drive band bullets are the same. Any one recommending any bullet be started at any max load in any load book is not only irresponsible for their own bullet, but does not take into consideration that people reading that recommendation may transfer that recommendation to all bore riders.

Now you say:

quote:

The above was not what I was responding to Gerard! The post I was responding to did not post the warnings you posted above.

This is quite true, the warning posted by Trax was somewhat more strongly worded as other discussions of our reloading data has been. So your remark below holds no water.

quote:

That was my whole point WORD OF MOUTH doesn’t make the warnings you posted as is evident in this thread.

I go from the point of view that anyone who:

quote:

Every time a thing is posted by second and third posters things are left out, till down the road the total meaning is totally up side down! Eventually someone will take one of the posts to mean any bullet is now safe to start at max in the loading books.

should not be reloading, but we all know people like this and in 15 years GSC has saved the day for some of these people. GSC has not blown a single rifle in that time and on a couple of occasions that we know of, has prevented disaster due to our bullet design concept.

quote:

You are correct that I have no experience with your bullets because they were so hard to come by here in Texas.

Fortunately this has now changed.

quote:

So I have used this type bullets for many years.

If you have not used GSC drive band bullets you are assuming that we are the same as every other grooved bullet you have tried. Truth is that GSC is different and we would appreciate it if you would not lump us in with grooved bullets as you know them.

See this comparison.

quote:

I'm sorry if I twisted your Knickers, but I’m sure you will get over it

No problem, the only one here with twisted knickers is yourself. Get some misconceptions sorted in your head and the twisted knickers will go away.

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:

Eventually someone will take one of the posts to mean any bullet is now safe to start at max in the loading books.

BY 'someone' you mean an imbecile who does not strictly follow the particular bullet manufacturers recommended loading guidelines.

Gentlemen, it seems we have a difference of opinion!

Opinions vary, and it is evident in this case there will no meeting of the minds, because nothing you or I say changes anything.

Gerard you have some credibility, but Trax is a parrot who simply takes the side of all discussions that will cause the most conflict. He writes well but shows zero real experience with anything beyond copying and pasting from a book, or other's words to stir the pot! Not one of his posts is free of crap slinging since he has been posting on AR. That is why his largest body of posts are in the Political cesspool. That is where he belongs among like minds who thrive on conflict!

I have never been one to put anyone on IGNORE simply because I believe everyone is entitled to their opinion and if we are at an impasse I simply will not respond to crap stirrers like TRAX on any subject. It is evident most of the rank and file here has found him to be a troll that loves to start trouble.

With TRAX aside, back to the issue! On your warning about your bullets, it is true that anyone reading it will understand the true meaning, and will not misinterpret. What I was concerned with is the kid who opens your website and scans over it reads and understands your warning, but then months later answers someone on the internet and remembers your words wrong and gives the impression that this starting at max, and placing the bullets against the lands and grooves applies to all bullets of this type not just yours. This may be the case, however, but you can only speak for your bullets.

One other thing that needs to be included in that warning on your bullets is, a note to those who may use your bullets in a double rifle.

That NOTE: should read, The recommendation above does not apply to these bullets in a double rifle. The reason being that speed is critical to proper regulation in a double rifle. Two fast or too slow and the rifle will not regulate properly.

Additionally placing the bullet tight against the lands and grooves may cause the rifle to not close properly at a critical time if one case or another is a little long.

Gerard I doubt you have done much testing of your bullets in double rifles, and I assume most of your testing if not all, has been with bolt rifles. So now if that is the case who has the most experience here with that type of hand loading?


....................................................................I bid you adieu!



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