quote:

Originally posted by mcdjph:
Note: Horsley cannot be run out of the country he is a Tanzanian.

And therefore will not lose his license either

quote:

"encountering a group of poachers suddenly in the bush usually results in an immediate gun battle"

"The game scouts typically have to shoot poachers on sight, and many of the PHs have had to do the same in self defense"

Yes these two are particularly far from the truth. Awful to shoot such a baby buffalo as well.

I just received the new issue and saw there are more stories written by "just plain Joes" and to be honest I like them. It is like your buddy tell you about the latest hunt with all the warts etc.,yes it is not professionally written and have some glaring goofs, but so what. I enjoy reading Craig and other pros but these stories a like an amature sees things. Please NO DISRESPECT to Craig and others.

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by fairgame:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by ledvm:
[QUOTE]I have yet to meet a chap who is willing to follow up a wounded Lion or other dangerous game without his PH. I have offered this fantastic opportunity to all and to date have had no offers?

Aaron Neilson posts here and he will tell you that Richard Bell Cross will often go it alone and with Lion and Leopard often without a tracker. If the client wants to join him then that is his 'indaba' as we say here.

I can see no advantage taking a crowd into the long grass and we call that a cluster phuck.

Lane - I can tell you that Andrew is right about this one, Rich likes it on his own! I know in 2008 2 of the 3 lions they took were wounded by the client, both charged Rich, and he did stop them both. I believe Andrew might have been with him on one of them, but the other was a client of mine, and I know for a fact, he was of no use!

I for one, would want an experienced gun with me, someone I trust, like Richard. But honestly, if I were a PH, I would go it alone, before I took many of the clients that I know and have seen in the field. Chances are they will do more harm than good. Case in point, just watch the new post regarding taking a cape buffalo with a knife. That client was as worthless as could be!!

I got back late last night. I found my magazine.

This is indeed the same area my son and I hunted in 07. David guided more than one hunter in 07. The remark about this being a new area and only his second hunt is BS. The area was new to them in 07. They got the area after the season opened.

I think there is a reason that the animals are positioned the way they are. It is so one can't seen the size of the bodies. They are both so young. To shoot an eland for camp meat on a 10 day hunt is a disgrace as is shooting a young bull that had real potential. There may be a reason for the buff as discussed later.

For those of you questioning the legality, I have a few comments. I agree with the comments about what can be taken on a particular license. Having said that, I am not at all sure that they broke the law. Hilary Daffi of Marera Safaris was scrambling for clients. He was actively offering relatively short hunts but required them to purchase a longer hunt licenses. He may have let someone shoot an animal on a 10 day hunt that was on a 21 day license. In the offers I saw, he was offering short all species hunts but required the purchase of a 21 day license. Did that happen here? I have no idea. Is that legal? I have no idea.

We had a great hunt there. Took some good animals. The buffalo were very difficult to hunt. It was very hot. The walks were long (which I love). They were in some incredibly thick stuff. Winds shifted constantly. It was virtually impossible to find a bull, glass it and make a decision. Usually, what you saw was a patch of black standing in the bush. Sometimes these black spots were very close. It was dangerous as hell. They wanted you to shoot and hope for the best. I wasn't too thrilled with that. I am speculating that this is what happened here to these guys.

I was happy that my kid quit buff hunting. It was way too dangerous. They got to within 10 yards to 2 massive bulls and could not even see them.

I personally saw a bull on the first day that I recon went a minimum of 46. I have shot 33 buffalo so I have something of an idea. I didn't shoot because I was standing on a log and I could only see the head. I ended up taking 2 decent bulls. Nothing spectacular. I could have shot more had I been willing to shoot at black spots.

You learn a lot of old poacher tricks when you hunt with these guys. Believe me. They have been there, done that.

I have heard a bunch of bad things since our hunt. Since I don't know they are a fact, I am not going to repeat them. There are some things that I do know for fact that I am not going to repeat to protect a friend of mine.

What I will tell you is that should you want to go, buyer beware.

Here is a link to our report:

http://forums.accuratereloadin...=517103937#517103937

quote:

Originally posted by Die Ou Jagter:
I just received the new issue and saw there are more stories written by "just plain Joes" and to be honest I like them. It is like your buddy tell you about the latest hunt with all the warts etc.,yes it is not professionally written and have some glaring goofs, but so what. I enjoy reading Craig and other pros but these stories a like an amature sees things. Please NO DISRESPECT to Craig and others.

DOJ:

My point exactly. I would much rather read stories written by guys who spend their own money on their own hunts. And I say that as a guy who will shortly go on a hunt that I am not paying for.

Not all hunts go great. If the only hunts we read about are record book hunts, it kills the story. Kinda like watching a movie when you know the ending.

quote:

We are seriously concerned at the fact that some laws were/seem to be broken. As has been stated it is illegal in the country of Tanzania to take immature animals. Both the buffalo and eland are WAY young.

Amen Brett!

quote:

Lane - I can tell you that Andrew is right about this one, Rich likes it on his own! I know in 2008 2 of the 3 lions they took were wounded by the client, both charged Rich, and he did stop them both. I believe Andrew might have been with him on one of them, but the other was a client of mine, and I know for a fact, he was of no use!

I for one, would want an experienced gun with me, someone I trust, like Richard. But honestly, if I were a PH, I would go it alone, before I took many of the clients that I know and have seen in the field. Chances are they will do more harm than good. Case in point, just watch the new post regarding taking a cape buffalo with a knife. That client was as worthless as could be!!

Not sure that this thread is the place for this discussion...but...here it goes anyway unless someone moves it.

I would NOT care in Jesus Christ hisself came down to earth and told me NOT to go on a follow-up of a lion (or any other DG) that I had wounded. I would be going. I have this discussion prior to money changing hands for a hunt I do. Which is not an issue cause the guys I hunt with know me.

I can also tell you that if I wounded a lion and I did not go on the follow-up...I would NOT hang it in my trophy room.

Now...with all that said...those are MY guidelines and it is up to each hunter to decide where HE hisself stands. I do not stand to impose my thoughts on others. To date...there are no other's rifle bullets in any of my African animals but my own and I will work hard to keep it that way.

It is really sad to see so many going out of their way to rain on someone elses parade.

After 30 years of hunting the rocky mountain west, and whatever was available around the southeast, I finally developed a desire to see what Africa was about.

In the early 90's all aritcles and videos trumpeted hunting the herd bull, or at least one with great drop and horn length. This left all the old broken up (scrum cap), bulls to the lions and hyenas. The outfitters realized that this was unsustainable and began pressuring the nimrods to take the "old warriors". Evidently this PH couldn't find the hunters an old warrior and convinced them to take a "mountain buffalo", instead.

I believe most of the scrum bulls and some immature bulls are sold to newbies and budget concious hunters and the real trophy bulls go to the Steve Hornadys of the world. Not to disparage Steve, he seems to be OK, just an example.

I guess what I'm trying to say is, leave these guys alone and let them enjoy the afterglow of Africa. They will realize over time that they have been victimized by a lazy and unscrupulous PH, and their own lack of knowledge, without having their noses rubbed in it.

quote:

It is really sad to see so many going out of their way to rain on someone elses parade.

You are missing the point. Bwanamich is looking after the integrity of Tanzania Hunting as he has a vested interest. It is also in the best interest of SCI to not post pics of bulls so young shot esp. when it is a violation of the law in Tanzania as well as unethical.

I say kill them all. Kill the hunters, the PH, the editors, the posters but most especially all the buffalo, including the calves. End of problem.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Lane - I can tell you that Andrew is right about this one, Rich likes it on his own! I know in 2008 2 of the 3 lions they took were wounded by the client, both charged Rich, and he did stop them both. I believe Andrew might have been with him on one of them, but the other was a client of mine, and I know for a fact, he was of no use!

I for one, would want an experienced gun with me, someone I trust, like Richard. But honestly, if I were a PH, I would go it alone, before I took many of the clients that I know and have seen in the field. Chances are they will do more harm than good. Case in point, just watch the new post regarding taking a cape buffalo with a knife. That client was as worthless as could be!!

Not sure that this thread is the place for this discussion...but...here it goes anyway unless someone moves it.

I would NOT care in Jesus Christ hisself came down to earth and told me NOT to go on a follow-up of a lion (or any other DG) that I had wounded. I would be going. I have this discussion prior to money changing hands for a hunt I do. Which is not an issue cause the guys I hunt with know me.

I can also tell you that if I wounded a lion and I did not go on the follow-up...I would NOT hang it in my trophy room.

Now...with all that said...those are MY guidelines and it is up to each hunter to decide where HE hisself stands. I do not stand to impose my thoughts on others. To date...there are no other's rifle bullets in any of my African animals but my own and I will work hard to keep it that way.

Lane - I agree 100%!! I too would be right beside you, guaranteed!!! But, my point is, I have definitely hunted with clients that I would absolutely insist they NOT go along. For their safety, as well as mine!!!

Excerpts of an e-mail solicitation I just received from a company offering hunts in Tanzania are attached below. Apparantly hunts for the famed "mountain buffalo" are catching on.

Dear Safari Hunter,

This month's newsletter issue brings you some great hunting opportunities for 2010 at discounted rates! See below for the wide variety of safaris available.

Please note that pricing for ALL safari packages listed below:

We look forward to providing you with the Tanzania safari of a lifetime that you deserve! Please call or email for more information on any of the hunts listed below.

LAKE NATRON SOUTH (MASAILAND): Leopard & EA Plains game special, Mountain buffalo adventure, and more!

CANCELLATION SPECIAL:
21-DAY LEOPARD, MOUNTAIN BUFFALO& EA PLAINS GAME

$72,100.00 (1x1) or $68,750.00 (2x2)

16-DAY MOUNTAIN BUFFALO & EA PLAINS GAME
$45,600.00 (1x1)

10-DAY MASAILAND, MOUNTAIN BUFFALO SAFARI

$25,550.00 (1x1)

Disgraceful.

So bad, in fact, that it is reminiscent of DAKOTA magazine, the house organ sent far and wide during the dark days when the despicable whore Charlie Koresh was bleeding the late Don Allen's company dry.

One of the last issues featured a morbidly obese "hunter" and the scion of his loins, identified as "my Charlie." The animals illustrated might as well have had placenta remnants on their faces.

Bad, bad juju. I concur, though: almost certainly not the hunter's fault. SCI should be ashamed.

If Tanzania REALLY cared about shooting small bulls they would simply prohibit shipping bulls that have had thier boss boiled away. It would be quite easy. Frankly, the evidence says they don't care. Why don't one of you turn this in as a Lacey Act violation if you think it is such a crime?

Brett, how many buffalo have you killed?

So some of you think the story in Safari was bad? I booked my first buffalo hunt soley based on a professional writer's story. Big mistake. My first buffalo was probably no better than the one shown in this pic, the diff being I was terribly disappointed. I hunted with an outfit recommended and written about by the esteemed Craig Boddington. PH was Jeff Covey. The guy didn't know his ass from a hole in the ground when it came to choosing MY buffalo(s). Or maybe he didn't care. Or maybe CBs buffalo were no better than mine but the camera magic fixed them (I doubt that as my first one was softer than butter on a hot day in AZ). I do remember those guys bitching that they were very disapointed by the amount of business they were promised (or felt they were promised) they would get a result of this story. Maybe they had a chip on their shoulder. I can tell you this: if they had a great operation they sure wouldn't have had to comp (in whole or part) this hunt.

The fact is, if you are on your first buffalo hunt, you stand a good chance of being taken advantage of IMO. My first hunt was with Swanepoel and Scandrol. I will never hunt with them again. Just because a great writer writes about an outfit doesn't mean you will get the same hunt. What is more misleading? A crappy outfit that is obvious like the one in this story or a story written by someone who knows how to smooth the rough edges? So again, give me "Joe the Plumber goes on Safari."

A well known writer told a friend of mine "Never let the truth ruin a good story." At least we didn't get that in this story.

Like I said, give me Safari mag and let me make my own judgements.

And finally, some of you guys are being really hypocritical. When we had the big flap about Phifer I was told several times to shut up, that Zimbabwe hunting was put in peril by my posts as well as others. So how is this different? Not that I don't think Tanzania hunting can stand the scrutiny...

All of this makes ol' Nixon look pretty good in my opinion.

For all the love that is shared about Africa, I can honestly say I have had much better luck spending my money in North America than Africa. Not that I haven't had some great hunts in Africa, but I have never been disappointed in North America.

quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:
If Tanzania REALLY cared about shooting small bulls they would simply prohibit shipping bulls that have had thier boss boiled away. It would be quite easy. Frankly, the evidence says they don't care. Why don't one of you turn this in as a Lacey Act violation if you think it is such a crime?

Brett, how many buffalo have you killed?

While we're asking irrelivant questions how many women have you been with? (You really don't have to answer that one!) Weather I've killed 0,1, or 200 I don't see how that makes a damn bit of difference. Nor does the number of buffalo you've taken mean anything.

I can't speak for anyone else who posted here, but let me inform you about my thoughts. I have no ill will towards the hunters or interest in seeing legal action taken against them. I think that would be a misjustice to them. They were obviously ignorant of many things and their ignorace and inexperience was taken advantage of by the PH. My problem is soley with the PH for taking advantage of them and leading them to break Tanzanian game laws by taking an immature (read illegal) eland without a license and an immature (read illegal) buffalo.

You and others seem to be missing the entire point, so let me fill you in here. If this were one of our many discussions about canned lions you could say it's legal and you have no right to critisize. Now more relavent if the hunter had taken that bull in RSA or Moz you could say so what it's legal, it's his money, and he's happy, so you shouldn't rain on his parade. And you'd be right. The problem is this isn't a question of taste or "ethics" this is a question of it being against the fricking law to kill an immature animal in the country of Tanzania which both the eland and buffalo clearly were immature. I'm not computing what your problem is with someone calling the outfitter and PH out for BREAKING THE LAW! Not doing something questionable or not being up to someone's ethical standards, but AGAINST THE LAW!!! What's your beef? Do you not care about game laws? Does anything go? I would hope and assume not, but you're making me start to wonder.

I too enjoy amateur writers. Their excitement and unmonitarily tainted view point is refreshing in comparison to the professional writers. These outfitters taking advantage of people and breaking the law need to have their balls nailed to the wall. That's what most of us are proposing rather than an ethics linch mob for the hunters.

Brett

quote:

Originally posted by Adrian Parham:
I guess what I'm trying to say is, leave these guys alone and let them enjoy the afterglow of Africa. They will realize over time that they have been victimized by a lazy and unscrupulous PH, and their own lack of knowledge, without having their noses rubbed in it.

Adrian,
So how many safaris "over time" should these hunters do taking young animals before they realize it themselves?

If it were you, would you prefer to be told by someone right away after the first young animal you took thinking it was a representative trophy of a particular species or perhaps wait years and several more young animals have been shot thinking they were good trophies?

The disgust by everyone here is vented towards the outfitter/ph and SCI magazine - though I have huge frustration and dissapointment towards the hunters for what is obviously a total lack of interest on their part in even just a little research on the subject of African hunting. Maybe the likes of them deserve to be taken advantage of?

Lavaca,
that advert is from Tanzania Wildlife Company and specifically to hunt Cape buffalo on top of the Kitumbeine Mountain. The reference to "Mountain" buffalo is not intended to adverize a "new species" but rather that these buffalo occur on the mountains (7,000 - 9,000 feet a.s.l)in that concession.

I agree it can be interpeted differently but I am sure if you ask them they will tell you they are cape buffalo.

quote:

Originally posted by lavaca:
Excerpts of an e-mail solicitation I just received from a company offering hunts in Tanzania are attached below. Apparantly hunts for the famed "mountain buffalo" are catching on.

Dear Safari Hunter,

This month's newsletter issue brings you some great hunting opportunities for 2010 at discounted rates! See below for the wide variety of safaris available.

Please note that pricing for ALL safari packages listed below:

We look forward to providing you with the Tanzania safari of a lifetime that you deserve! Please call or email for more information on any of the hunts listed below.

LAKE NATRON SOUTH (MASAILAND): Leopard & EA Plains game special, Mountain buffalo adventure, and more!

CANCELLATION SPECIAL:
21-DAY LEOPARD, MOUNTAIN BUFFALO& EA PLAINS GAME

$72,100.00 (1x1) or $68,750.00 (2x2)

16-DAY MOUNTAIN BUFFALO & EA PLAINS GAME
$45,600.00 (1x1)

10-DAY MASAILAND, MOUNTAIN BUFFALO SAFARI

$25,550.00 (1x1)

I know this guy, he is selling buffalo on a mountain, maybe his wording is wrong. I sure if you ask him he will say they are normal cape buffalo. Lavaca, you should let us know.

quote:

I too enjoy amateur writers. Their excitement and unmonitarily tainted view point is refreshing in comparison to the professional writers. These outfitters taking advantage of people and breaking the law need to have their balls nailed to the wall. That's what most of us are proposing rather than an ethics linch mob for the hunters.

Brett

quote:

Well said Brett!,
I don’t think there is a person on here that has said anything about the actual writing or the content of the article.
Part of the SCI mission statement says.

“Keeping members informed regarding issues that impact hunting while educating and entertaining members with engaging articles about the rich heritage of hunting in all forms of media”

Surly this article is a miss-education! And other potential clients reading this who senselessly book because of an article may book with this joker and end up shooting more babies thinking what a great hunter he is. On the flip side knowledgeable hunters will see this and think, how can Tanzania let this kind of hunting happen (both ways SAFARI look stupid for printing this article)
This hunt was not a cull or for food it was a trophy hunt and let us not forget that “TROPHY” hunting is a sport! There is nothing sporting about going out and shooting the first thing you see, because it was standing there or you couldn’t find anything else to shoot.
Back to the word “sport” because you have golf clubs or a tennis racket does not make you a sports man and you defiantly cannot play any sport without knowing the rules (or laws)!
There are laws in place but we shouldn’t need them Trophy hunting should be conducted with honor, ethics at all times.
Yes a client should follow wounded game, but should first have the hardware required! And the experience/knowledge on how to handle the situation. I don’t think to 2 “baby killers” would qualify! A good example of this is the client who didn’t kill the buffalo that had to be stabbed with a knife!

Buffalo with a knife topic.
http://dealerscorner.coldsteel...e-Heart-Safaris.aspx

quote:

16-DAY MOUNTAIN BUFFALO & EA PLAINS GAME
$45,600.00 (1x1)

Maybe more disgraceful than that buffalo is the gross amount of money probably spent for it.

I thought times were supposed to be so tough!

Will, The EA Plains game include gerenuk, Lesser kudu, Fringe eared Oryx which are all 21 day license psecies (and I think 3 buff), hence the big $$

Where's the new house and car?

I guess I just didn't figger on mountain buff being that expensive.

Tell you whatWill, I can recommend an outfitter near Ruaha Park in Tz for 1 buff and 1 eland at throw away prices . No, Really

I love those discounted hunts for a twenty thousand dollar buffalo.

Somebody done gettin' a new house and car, but it ain't the client.

quote:

Originally posted by Bwanamich:
Will, The EA Plains game include gerenuk, Lesser kudu, Fringe eared Oryx which are all 21 day license psecies (and I think 3 buff), hence the big $$

These species should not be on a 16 day hunt, but maybe it is a 21 day license in 16 days,( we should come up with a new term for this kind of hunt).
It may include all Gov't fees as well.

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
I love those discounted hunts for a twenty thousand dollar buffalo.

Somebody done gettin' a new house and car, but it ain't the client.

How about you get in the business then Will. I can give you names of half a dozen outfits on the market. Then you can get yourself a new house

Mitch- Not a hijack(exactly), but was curious about your take on the state of bookings on these "higher end" offerings. I got the same email and was staggered by the use of "discounted".

quote:

Originally posted by Bwanamich:

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
I love those discounted hunts for a twenty thousand dollar buffalo.

Somebody done gettin' a new house and car, but it ain't the client.

How about you get in the business then Will. I can give you names of half a dozen outfits on the market. Then you can get yourself a new house

Hey, I has got me a new house I can't afford already.

What the quota on mtn. buff with them outfits?

Bwanamitch and mcdjph

I interpreted the add the same way you did. The timing just struck me as somewhat humorous given this thread. Perhaps the client who wrote the article misinterpreted a similar statement by his PH.

Does anyone have an actual word-for-word copy of the law supposedly broken by the hunters in question?

Good question Tony. Here is a law that anyone who has ever hunted in Tanzania has broken:

You must be back in camp by 6 pm.

quote:

quote:
Originally posted by Will:
I love those discounted hunts for a twenty thousand dollar buffalo.

Somebody done gettin' a new house and car, but it ain't the client.


How about you get in the business then Will. I can give you names of half a dozen outfits on the market. Then you can get yourself a new house

Names please

quote:

Originally posted by Outdoor Writer:
Does anyone have an actual word-for-word copy of the law supposedly broken by the hunters in question?

The Wildlife Conservation Act, 1974 No 12, Part IV, Title (a), Section 39.
39. No license, permit or authority granted under this Act shall, unless it is specifically stated therein, be construed as authorizing the holder thereof to hunt or kill the young of any animal or any female animal which is apparently pregnant or which is accompanied by its young and any person who, holding a valid license, permit or authority to hunt an animal of any species, hunts the young of that species or the female of that species which is pregnant or accompanied by its young shall, unless the hunting of such young or such female is expressly authorized by the license, permit or authority, be guilty of having hunted, killed or wounded the same without a license, permit or authority and shall be liable to be punished accordingly
There is NO law that says you have to be in camp at 6am, it is mainly the Selous game scouts that try this for one reason or another, There was a version of the act that added “sunset to sunrise” to the end of (iv).
Section 54
1) No person shall, except by and in accordance with the written authority of the Director previously sought and obtained-
(c) Hunt any animal-
(iv) During the hours of darkness.

Incidentally there is no law that says you CANNOT shoot a female, apart from section 39, so theoretically you could shoot a female not accompanied by its young or pregnant, (I wouldn’t like to try this)
Tanzania Has a new act coming out this year, Maybe. It will be interesting!

quote:

...hunts the young of that species...

Hmmmmmm, and the interpretation of the above allegedly applies to the buff in the photo??

Me thinks the little guy on the FAR left in this photo is the "young" the law refers to. It doesn't apply to the trophy quality of an adult bull that can manage on its own and breed, IMO. And I would think the one in question in the article was capable of both.

I would say, possibly it does! Or there could be a case but at what age do we call an animal of a species young?
I go back to what I had said earlier.

“This hunt was not a cull or for food it was a trophy hunt and let us not forget that “TROPHY” hunting is a sport! There is nothing sporting about going out and shooting the first thing you see, because it was standing there or you couldn’t find anything else to shoot.
Back to the word “sport” because you have golf clubs or a tennis racket does not make you a sports man and you defiantly cannot play any sport without knowing the rules (or laws)!
There are laws in place but we shouldn’t need them Trophy hunting should be conducted with honor, ethics at all times”

If we do not hunt with ethics and honor what are we doing "killing"? the antis will love that!

These poor clients knew no better, and I do not expect Safari to know every law but they should knew what an immature buffalo looks like and not have published this on moral grounds. since they did now they have an obligation to educate its members as to what it a mature buffalo, Unless of course Safari and SCI do not think its unethical to kill an immature animal as a trophy.

So now it's gone from being illegal to being unethical? And then into the realm of defining what a "trophy" is for somone else, regardless if it was a legal critter or not? And if someone else's trophy doesn't fit the definition, it's unethical hunting??

I ain't going down the path.

An animal is no longer "young" when it can survive quite well on it's own and is capable of breeding.

quote:

An animal is no longer "young" when it can survive quite well on it's own and is capable of breeding.

So at this stage it can be shot?

What of the study that shooting a lion under 6 years old is damaging to the existence of the species, is this wrong?

Why doesn’t a similar equation apply to buffalo?

No one person can bend ethics to suit his own standard, unless he has none.

The eland and buffalo where young by any stretch of the immagination. The fact remains it's illegal weather someone thinks it's unethical or not. End of story.

Brett