I am traveling on business. I haven't seen the story. I can't wait to get back and read it

In 07, I hunted with David Horsley as my ph. He was apparently not licensed at the time based upon subsequent information received. I was not at all happy to find that out. If I interpret Nderobo's comment correctly, he works for the same company now.

I found David to be reasonably knowledgeable and hard working. I did not trust him at all. My 6th sense was telling me somethinng.

What I did observe is that he would try and do things that probably weren't the best until he figured out your level of experience. Once he determined that I had been around the block a few a few times, that stuff stopped completely . For example, we had some lions on bait. When they came, he said to not shoot them. They were too young and to not let the operator talk me into shooting.

My biggest problem with him was that he built hides way too close to the baits. He was asleep instantly and snored loudly in the blind.

I can absolutely see him taking the easy road with an inexerienced client convining the client to take that easy magnificent trophy that was in fact immature.

quote:

Originally posted by Will:

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

I have yet to meet a chap who is willing to follow up a wounded Lion or other dangerous game without his PH. I have offered this fantastic opportunity to all and to date have had no offers?

And...I have yet to meet the PH that would not rather have another "competent gun" at his side when following up a cat or other dangerous game.

ledvm,

Sorry that is rubbish, but if you insist then fine and good on you. The purest experience is to go it alone and anybody else is a liability. Think about it?

Your rubbish is rubbish. I don't recall a single follow-up by anyone that I know or heard of that was done alone, or with no trackers, much less being the only white guy.

I always find it humorous when these guys talk about "going in alone." Except for that whole crew of trackers, you mean? HA!

Rubbish is rubbish no matter what dumpster it comes out of.

ledvm,

Yes I did mean 'alone' as in without the client and yes you are correct my right hand man 'Green' is always with me but unarmed. There are no others but then again it all depends on the circumstance. Green is there because he has the ability to see through a mopane tree and can literally hear you close your eyes.

Aaron Neilson posts here and he will tell you that Richard Bell Cross will often go it alone and with Lion and Leopard often without a tracker. If the client wants to join him then that is his 'indaba' as we say here.

I can see no advantage taking a crowd into the long grass and we call that a cluster phuck.

quote:

Sorry that is rubbish, but if you insist then fine and good on you. The purest experience is to go it alone and anybody else is a liability. Think about it?

It is odd fairgame, that I have been in camp when a lion was wounded and had to be followed up in the jesse and the radio call went out for all to rendezvou to be present and these were all Old Hand PH's.

Fairgame,
It is a good thing that I never had any desire to hunt with you and thanks for warning me so that I never get that desire.

Bwanamich,
I applaud you for pointing out this atrocity and black-eye for hunting. That buff looks like a 2 year old or maybe even a long yearling!!!

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:
I am traveling on business. I haven't seen the story. I can't wait to get back and read it

In 07, I hunted with David Horsley as my ph. He was apparently not licensed at the time based upon subsequent information received. I was not at all happy to find that out. If I interpret Nderobo's comment correctly, he works for the same company now.

I found David to be reasonably knowledgeable and hard working. I did not trust him at all. My 6th sense was telling me somethinng.

What I did observe is that he would try and do things that probably weren't the best until he figured out your level of experience. Once he determined that I had been around the block a few a few times, that stuff stopped completely . For example, we had some lions on bait. When they came, he said to not shoot them. They were too young and to not let the operator talk me into shooting.

My biggest problem with him was that he built hides way too close to the baits. He was asleep instantly and snored loudly in the blind.

I can absolutely see him taking the easy road with an inexerienced client convining the client to take that easy magnificent trophy that was in fact immature.

I can absurdly

I have heard stories where David Horsley used to chase animals in his truck and then shoot them from the back.

I haver also heard that he and a client of his wounded a lion. They had to call another PH to sort that little fiasco out.

Again, I really have no idea why SCI seems to have an icredible knack of picking this sort of PHs to glorify.

If I wounded an animal, I would like to go after it with the PH and finish it off - as I have done on several occasions through the years I have hunted.

If the PH asked me to stay behind, I will do so, but he will never have me as a client again.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Sorry that is rubbish, but if you insist then fine and good on you. The purest experience is to go it alone and anybody else is a liability. Think about it?

It is odd fairgame, that I have been in camp when a lion was wounded and had to be followed up in the jesse and the radio call went out for all to rendezvou to be present and these were all Old Hand PH's.

If and I say if there is another PH to be found within a hundred miles then he would obviously be a welcome addition. Generally many clients although fine shots have not had the necessary experience and most accidents in the bush have stemmed from this scenario. Just ask Punki.

No problems with not wanting to hunt with me besides we would just find ourselves arguing all the time and I get enough ear ache at home.

Cheers

Back to the thread and yes that is one of the biggest Mountain buffalo I have ever seen.

Oh no, another subspecies of the ole caffer. It was shot at mountaintop I presume?

We should have a best quote contest.

"That's as big as buffalo get around here!"

Priceless.

Ledvm,
I have watched your back and forth with Andrew since he signed up on AR. You seem to poke at Andrew with a stick every chance you can.

I've hunted with many many qualified and competent professionals over the years, Andrew was and is one of the finest. You are doing yourself a diservice by not experiencing time with Fairgame.

I always always do as I'm told by which ever PROFESSIONAL I'm with even though some of them may contradict one another. When you think you know more or better your gonna have a F*&% up.

Nganga

quote:

Originally posted by Nganga:
Ledvm,
I have watched your back and forth with Andrew since he signed up on AR. You seem to poke at Andrew with a stick every chance you can.

I've hunted with many many qualified and competant professionals over the years, Andrew was and is one of the finest. You are doing yourself a diservice by not experiencing time with Fairgame.

I always always do as I'm told by which ever PROFESSIONAL I'm with even though some of them may contradict one another. When you think you know more or better your gonna have a F*&% up.

Nganga

Better be careful you don't wind up inadvertently casting poor Andrew in with the likes of MS.

Lets start that pot roiling again!

quote:

Oh no, another subspecies of the ole caffer. It was shot at mountaintop I presume?

If shooting an animal on a mountain top constitutes a new species, I better write an article about my "Mountain Hog," "Mountain Pronghorn," "Mountain Corsican Sheep," ... Actually, this then begs the question, "if a mountain goat was shot on flat land, is that then just a regular 'goat'?"

quote:

http://www.outdoorlife.com/pho...8/born-hunt?photo=10


PSmith, is this the bongo you are referring too?
Photo #11 of 13.

Kathi, I'm quite positive that is the bongo in the article.

Well, regarding Tanzanian 'Mountain Buffalo', I can highly recommend a dvd by Rainer Josch (Safari Press has it). Seems like one of the bulls was in the upper 40s in spread. The buffalo were regular old syncerus caffer caffer that apparently liked to walk up and down the mountain.

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
Oh no, another subspecies of the ole caffer. It was shot at mountaintop I presume?

We should have a best quote contest.

"That's as big as buffalo get around here!"

Priceless.

'Thick bases and nice cape'

quote:

Originally posted by Nganga:
Ledvm,
I have watched your back and forth with Andrew since he signed up on AR. You seem to poke at Andrew with a stick every chance you can.

I've hunted with many many qualified and competent professionals over the years, Andrew was and is one of the finest. You are doing yourself a diservice by not experiencing time with Fairgame.

I always always do as I'm told by which ever PROFESSIONAL I'm with even though some of them may contradict one another. When you think you know more or better your gonna have a F*&% up.

Nganga

Nganga,
It seems that everything that Andrew says just rubs me the wrong way. And the fact that he is so adamant about it gets me going. He and I just have 180 opposite opinions on some things. For one I am an avid hound hunter and he thinks hounds should be banned. I am sure Andrew is a fine human being. I just don't share his views. I have "been around" enough to know that alot of what he says is not a general opinion amongst PH's and I take-it-with-a-grain-of-salt. I will shut up now...Hell...some folks even like Barack Obama!

quote:

'Thick bases and nice cape'

And nice soft bosses!

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame: I can see no advantage taking a crowd into the long grass and we call that a cluster phuck.

Well, it does decrease the odds of the critter singling you out…but of course the probability of getting shot goes up.

I know two PH’s who had the privilege and honor of getting their mauling caught on film (remind me to stipulate on my next hunt the conditions surrounding the video usage of my potential stomping/goring/chewing!!!), one by a wounded lion and one by a wounded leopard. In both cases, the animal singled them out, and miraculously they were not shot….and in fact the lion was shot off the PH by the client, and I think the leopard too, I can’t recall.

Not sure what this sampling says, other than there is no sure outcome when doing a follow-up.

There are some discussions that need to be talked out beforehand and agreed to, such as the topic of “backup shots”. This being said, I have been in camp with guys that NO WAY in heck would I as a PH allow them to participate in a follow-up.

Hey, all good sport and fun discussions.

I wonder if some client-dude wounds a lion, or a leopard or whatever, how can they he be relied upon to shoot it off the PH's tummy?

Sounds pretty scary to me.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:
I am traveling on business. I haven't seen the story. I can't wait to get back and read it

In 07, I hunted with David Horsley as my ph. He was apparently not licensed at the time based upon subsequent information received. I was not at all happy to find that out. If I interpret Nderobo's comment correctly, he works for the same company now.

I found David to be reasonably knowledgeable and hard working. I did not trust him at all. My 6th sense was telling me somethinng.

What I did observe is that he would try and do things that probably weren't the best until he figured out your level of experience. Once he determined that I had been around the block a few a few times, that stuff stopped completely . For example, we had some lions on bait. When they came, he said to not shoot them. They were too young and to not let the operator talk me into shooting.

My biggest problem with him was that he built hides way too close to the baits. He was asleep instantly and snored loudly in the blind.

I can absolutely see him taking the easy road with an inexerienced client convining the client to take that easy magnificent trophy that was in fact immature.

I can absurdly

I have heard stories where David Horsley used to chase animals in his truck and then shoot them from the back.

I haver also heard that he and a client of his wounded a lion. They had to call another PH to sort that little fiasco out.

Again, I really have no idea why SCI seems to have an icredible knack of picking this sort of PHs to glorify.

If I wounded an animal, I would like to go after it with the PH and finish it off - as I have done on several occasions through the years I have hunted.

If the PH asked me to stay behind, I will do so, but he will never have me as a client again.

David Horsley was the PH? You guys remember one of our famous POS trolls named CATS, 2thDoc, driver,etc (whose real name was Terrence Murphy)? Before we ran him off the 24hr Forum (as MocassinJoe) he posted pictures of his buffalo hunt with this same PH and a sorry-assed looking buffalo he shot along with a "green" one his buddy shot. It was laughable but sad to see this same PH is still at it. All joking aside, if this Horsley guy is a licensed PH are there any repercussions for this? jorge

Yep, judging by the pic, that's pretty bad!!

Maybe SCI is trying for a new Mtn Buffalo catagory, so they can charge more money for people to enter their trophies???

My understanding is that David and Hassanali Ladak were not licensed in 07 when we went with them. We learned this after the fact based upon posting on AR. I was pissed because my kid was hunting with an unlicensed PH.

I understand that there was big trouble for the safari company which somehow finds itself constantly mired in trouble. I don't know what penalty if any was paid for this. I can assure you of an indirect penalty. Last year I choose to go to the Save rather than going back to TZ with this company.

David pulled some stupid stuff with me early on. I called him out about it. That was the end of that type of thing . We had a good time, a good hunt and took some good trophies.

That buff in the article in definitely small. I haven't read the article yet. However, it has been offered to me in the past to hunt buff on a mountain. Perhaps Mt Monduli. Not sure. I was always told that it was a unique buff hunt. Perhaps some novice misinterpreted this as a new species. That is a maybe,not a fact .

In David's defense, we shot a bait animal or two from the truck. Nothing else. We had a wounded buff in bad stuff. I went in and did David. He didn't chicken out on a potentially bad situation. Having said this, I did not trust him at all .

He is half English and half Zulu, a rather strange looking mixture. We went through a village. Some of the villagers called him mzugu (white man). He was not happy.

I just read the article again and I feel very badly for these hunters. They were obviously well intentioned and very inexperienced and the PH (who from the above, sounds like a jerk) took them for a real ride. You just don't come up with a "Mt. Buffalo" species and describe horn configuration etc. without someone telling you that sh.... As Larry Shores indicated, the PH would go as far as the client's would let him in trying just about anything....and unfortunately these clients were not experienced enough to call him out. In addition to getting after SCI, TPHA should run this so called PH out of the country.

I'm at our cabin and have not read the article in question, and my copy of the issue in question is at our home in Tucson. Nonetheless I cannot tell you how many times during the 17 years I produced Safari magazine and SCI's other publications that I had to correct dumb things that members quoted their PHs as saying.

A "mountain" subspecies of buffalo? How about a "new species?" Although the okapi may be the last large mammalian species to be discovered by Europeans in Africa, "new species" probably appeared in at least 10% of the articles SCI's members (including some very experienced international hunters) submitted.

A great many of the photographs members submitted for publication also were mislabeled. For example, the photo might show a klipspringer and the member would label it as a duiker -- or perhaps a "kopje duiker," because that's what his PH called it.

Sometimes the member would claim it was an animal not known to exist within 500 miles of where he shot it. When the guy's record book entry for this rare beast would be rejected, he would scream bloody murder, claiming his PH was the ultimate expert on African game.

Also, as someone on this thread has said, it is impossible for any editor (or SCI member, for that matter) to know the laws of every country.

My point is, every article submitted to a magazine is potentially loaded with things that can make an editor and his publication look dumb if he misses them. No matter how knowledgeable an editor might be, the law of averages eventually catches up and he will miss something that at any other time would be obvious.

Incidentally, several posters on this thread regularly use the word "specie" when they mean "species." "Specie" refers to currency, specifically coins. "Species," the taxonomic unit between genus and subspecies, is both singular and plural.

I find it hard to believe that it's been 11 years since I retired from my SCI post. I'm glad I no longer must edit anything.

Bill Quimby

quote:

I find it hard to believe that it's been 11 years since I retired from my SCI post. I'm glad I no longer must edit anything.

You think that is going to let you off the hook?

Not sure about the magazine guidelines, last year Nov / Dec they published an article of an illegal cross bow hunt in Namibia!!!!!

I think a few people posting on this thread are missing a few points here. No one is raging on the hunters because their animals didn't make SCI gold metal. Far from it. We are seriously concerned at the fact that some laws were/seem to be broken. As has been stated it is illegal in the country of Tanzania to take immature animals. Both the buffalo and eland are WAY young. I don't mean they don't score well and shouldn't have been taken. I mean they are WAY WAY WAY too young and therefore illegal to kill. The other problem and it's a big one is that both clients were seemingly on a 10 day license. Eland are ONLY available in Tanzania on a 21 day license. I suppose they could have bought a 21 day hunt and only hunted 10 days, but that would be supprising since they only seem to have taken the two animals in question. Why didn't they take some of the roan or other animals available on a 21 day license that they saw?

Brett

Does anyone know who the company is and what the area is they were hunting? They said it was around Ruhua NP. I'm trying to think who's a slime ball in that general vicinity and the only one that comes to mind is Mulla formerly of Usangu Safaris and now of Francolin Safaris. I think he stole part of one of Robin Hurt's concessions there last year or the year before.

Brett

Hey, if the old man and his kid had fun, then I don't really see the problem.

There are lots of things I don't agree with. Shooting lioness, female leopards, .....

And what is young? People are whacking away too many animals young and old everywhere.

Young buff get killed every day, mostly by poachers and lions.

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
Hey, if the old man and his kid had fun, then I don't really see the problem.

Let me help you see the problem. The animals they harvested in the country of Tanzania are not legal animals due to their young age.....and they likely didn't have the proper hunting license to take an eland. Other than that they had a wonderful hunt and their PH is a liar.

Brett

I have not read the article. David did work for Hilary Daffi of Marera Safaris. They did have Lunda South which bordered the Ruaha NP.

Actually I feel bad for the clients. I have been sent in the wrong direction a time or two by a ph. The problem I see is an inexperienced hunter being fed bs by a so called professional. Now as to why the magazine chose to publish such an article who knows. Most guys dont get to go to Africa multiple times. They must rely on what the ph tells them. It is this breach of trust that I have the real problem with. The fact that this animal should not have been taken is secondary to that in my mind.

will youre missing the point here, i quote you " Hey, if the old man and his kid had fun, then i dont really see the point"??????????? Seriously??

Do we have to give you the whole speech about how shooting young animals is unethical and killing conservation as a hunter?

I can understand if it is a culling operation and there is a lot of game, but that is not the case here. the area these two men hunted has been depleted pretty bad and that attitude will not help anybody

i meant to write problem not point

So were they hunting in Lunda with Daffi or was this another Mulla disaster?

Brett

appears to be the former...

quote:

Originally posted by nampom:
Not sure about the magazine guidelines, last year Nov / Dec they published an article of an illegal cross bow hunt in Namibia!!!!!

Maybe they made a donation to SCI

quote:

Originally posted by Code4:

quote:

Originally posted by nampom:
Not sure about the magazine guidelines, last year Nov / Dec they published an article of an illegal cross bow hunt in Namibia!!!!!

Maybe they made a donation to SCI

Don't start this again!

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
Oh no, another subspecies of the ole caffer. It was shot at mountaintop I presume?

We should have a best quote contest.

"That's as big as buffalo get around here!"

Priceless.

'Thick bases and nice cape'

“you’ll save on the shipping you can carry that head back in your hand luggage”

I think the client must have asked why his buffalo looked so different from what he had seen in other photos, and was told its is a “fully mature” bull of and it looked different because it is a mountain variety! But how did he believe David’s estimate of a 1000 pounds!!!?
The client was stupid and should have known better and the PH maybe less than ethical or legal, it is illegal to shoot a “young” of any specie, but how do you prove the buffalo’s age?

We can all comment on this but what caught my eye the most are these 2 statements:

"encountering a group of poachers suddenly in the bush usually results in an immediate gun battle"

"The game scouts typically have to shoot poachers on sight, and many of the PHs have had to do the same in self defense"

How damaging is this to Tanzania?

The bottom line is no matter how busy the editor is this article should have never been printed! I think every SCI member on this forum should write to the editor and demand and explanation.

Note: Horsley cannot be run out of the country he is a Tanzanian.