Is a 375 H&H really sufficient for elephants?

For the one (and only) I shot it was. Range perhaps 40 yards, brained it with a solid from the side. DRT

Worked for me. It’s where you hit them, not necessarily what you hit them with.

Not my first choice, especially for frontal brain shots, but the .375 will reach fine on a side brain shot and it certainly penetrates well enough that a heart/lung shot works.

As long as you use solids.

I've killed elephant with the 375 H&H. However, with that being said, any caliber will make you feel small around a big bull elephant.

I'd rather shoot an Elephant with a 375 than a Cape Buffalo. A side brain shot with most centerfire rifles and a good solid will get the job done.

quote:

Originally posted by drongo:
Is a 375 H&H really sufficient for elephants?

Yes

More then enough

I would yield to any and all professional hunters. I lived in Zim for two years. Lots of Elephant hunting. Started with a 416 and moved to a 500 Jeffries.Felt better with the 500.

Buzz Charlton told me he thinks more Elephant ( in Zim ? ) have been shot with .375 H&H than any other calibre.

quote:

Originally posted by 30.06king:
Buzz Charlton told me he thinks more Elephant ( in Zim ? ) have been shot with .375 H&H than any other calibre.

I was told back in the early 1980’s that the 375 H&H was one of the most common calibers used for elephant culling in Zim but was eventually used less due to problems with over penetration. I don’t recall exactly who told me that, but it was either Roy Vincent, Peter Johnstone or Vernon Booth.

Worked for me on Tuskless.

Anyone who tells you one caliber kills better than others is living in cuckoo land.

All the ones I shot with a 375 never complained.

I shot two elephants with one bullet.

Once in a 416 Rigby Improved and once in a 375/404.

I recovered the bullet from the one shot with the 416.

Then shot the second one with a 375, and never recovered it.

Here is what happen.

Bullet was a Barnes Super Solid in brass.

Killed an elephant with it in my 416 Rigby Improved, and recovered it.

I put in my lathe and turned it down to 375, and used it to shoot another elephant the following year.

Killed him and whizzed straight through.

Which might tell you that the same bullet in a 375 is better than a bigger caliber!

Single frontal brain shot on a mature tuskless cow. Worked perfectly!

It really makes no difference what size hole you put in the brain, with elephant all you need is penetration, and the 375 has more than enough..Its fine if one can shoot, if not, better stay home..

quote:

Originally posted by Biebs:
I'd rather shoot an Elephant with a 375 than a Cape Buffalo. A side brain shot with most centerfire rifles and a good solid will get the job done.

I am with Biebs on this one.

I only have one experience with hunting elephant. And it was tuskless cow I shot with a .375 solid at about 125 yards. Heart shot, she turned, took a few steps and died leaning against a tree. From shot to fall was maybe 20-30 seconds, but I honestly lost track of time.

quote:

Originally posted by tomahawker:
Wally’s 375

That’s pretty damn cool!

I would use one if it was all I had, but only grudgingly.

quote:

Originally posted by tomahawker:
Wally’s 375

That was serial number 13997. I'm lucky enough to own 13994

The good thing with .375H&H is of course penetration...I shot two of my elephants with it..but more with .458Win.and .475NE..

Elephant is hunted at very close distance...I feel more secure with a larger bore..

Bell shot more eles than all of us will ever do combined with a .275, but that's not ideal and neither is a 375. IF you can handle a bigger caliber that would be the way to go. If you cannot stay with a 375.

You shoot a buffalo with a 375 and with a 416 or 458 you can see the visible difference so I don't know what this same physics would not apply to an elephant!

Next time you go on Safari note that your favorite DG PH is probably not carrying a 375, I wonder why!

quote:

Originally posted by reddy375:
Bell shot more eles than all of us will ever do combined with a .275, but that's not ideal and neither is a 375. IF you can handle a bigger caliber that would be the way to go. If you cannot stay with a 375.

You shoot a buffalo with a 375 and with a 416 or 458 you can see the visible difference so I don't know what this same physics would not apply to an elephant!

Next time you go on Safari note that your favorite DG PH is probably not carrying a 375, I wonder why!

I wonder how many elephant Bell lost when using the .275..

quote:

Originally posted by Michael Robinson:
I would use one if it was all I had, but only grudgingly.

I use mine out of choice.

Worked every time.

I have rifles up to the 700 NE!

quote:

Originally posted by Pondoro:

quote:

Originally posted by reddy375:
Bell shot more eles than all of us will ever do combined with a .275, but that's not ideal and neither is a 375. IF you can handle a bigger caliber that would be the way to go. If you cannot stay with a 375.

You shoot a buffalo with a 375 and with a 416 or 458 you can see the visible difference so I don't know what this same physics would not apply to an elephant!

Next time you go on Safari note that your favorite DG PH is probably not carrying a 375, I wonder why!

I wonder how many elephant Bell lost when using the .275..

Bell was still only a teenager when he started his hunting career and he did lose a few elephant before he dissected an elephants head and committed to memory where the brain lay in the skull. Likewise he got his native helpers to poke their spears through an elephants chest cavity while Bell was inside again to commit to memory all the angles to reach the heart/lings.
He shot elephant for money and became very rich doing so. I imagine once he got his shot angles right he wouldn't have missed the animals that made his fortunes.
I think everyone accepts Bell's feats with the small calibres were extraordinary and should not be attempted by others.
Of course today hunters have the luxury of having PH's who get them out of trouble when things go wrong so can safely attempt to take elephant with any cartridge that is legal or at least allowed by the PH
I wonder how many elephant shot with 375's used by tyro hunters have had to be followed up with shots from larger calibres carried by others in the party or the PH to put the animals in the bag. I bet there's been a few.

Not many hunters will write hunt reports about their failures.

Bullshit. Lots of people were shooting elephants with small calibers in the old days. No one cared and they seemed to work just fine - .303, 6.5x54, .318 WR were common. It wasn't just Walter Bell at all.

Remember, the elephant cullers in the 1980's all used SLR's in 7.62 NATO.

Bell himself scoffed at this mentality, he called it "big bore snobbery".

Look if you can't understand what he meant when he said that a bull elephant shot over the heart with a 7x57 died just as quickly as when it was shot with a .450/400...with a solid bullet you are talking about a difference in the size of the bullet hole through the arteries over the heart, or in the brain. They are ALL fatal. And if you havn't hit the vitals it doesnt matter what you shot him with....

If you notice, most of the "experts" suggesting a bigger caliber is better have only shot one elephant, or non.

Others who have used a 375 many times suggest otherwise.

Arm chair experts comes to mind!

I will only say that 8,000 ft.-lbs. of ME are twice as much as 4,000.

And one can readily see the effect of that upon bullet impact, in the right place, of course.

That kind of power stops elephant in their tracks, lifts hippos off the ground, and slams buffalo right down onto it.

Albeit only in the field, as I have done, multiple times, and perhaps not in theory from anyone's armchair.

My bet still stands, Saeed.

But I would still use a .375 on elephant, assuming that it was all I could manage to put my hands on.

Place it in the CNS, and caliber doesn't matter.

Unfortunately, that is not how it always works.

Mike,

Point is one should hunt with what one is comfortable with.

It really is immaterial whether you use a stick or a 700 Nitro Express.

I know, these are extreme examples, but to me they are the same.

One is putting himself in danger, and the other is totally over gunned by a rifle most likely he is unable to handle.
I decided on developing and building my 375/404 for my own hunting.

And as far as I am concerned, I have made the right decision.

These two rifles have killed more dangerous game, by being used by several people, than probably any other caliber being used by sports hunters, like us.

Never had a single instant of failure.

I quite enjoy this discussion.

My views on this subject probably fall into Saeed's armchair expert category given I've taken only 2 cow elephant and experienced an unprovaked charge by a cow that was stopped by the PH at about 5 metres.

I don't think you can go wrong with using the biggest calibre you can handle however, I'm happy to continue using my 375 H&H.

If a hunter, particuarly one on their first ele hunt, can't get the job done with the 375, I doubt a bigger, heavier recoiling calibre will help them.

If I was to hunt ele each year, hunting early season jesse or focussed only on tuskless cows, I might consider another calibre, but unfortunately, that's not going to happen, so I'll happily continue using the old Parker Hale in 375.

For me, the more important question is whether a hunter is fit enough to carry his rifle over the kilometres needed to hunt ele.

quote:

Others who have used a 375 many times suggest otherwise.

My first ever rifle at the carefree age of 18 was a 375 Mod.70 with which I took a number of elephants.

One fine day the 375 failed and I had to "borrow" a 416 Rigby and it changed my views on the effectiveness of the 375.

Not always does one perform the perfect shot (for whatever reason) but doing so with a 416 is more likely to get you off the hook than you would with a 375.

Over the course of my hunting life I found that often not, bigger can be better, and I now put great reliance on the 50 cal. when the going gets rough.

0.041” makes all the difference!

Pull the other one, it has bells on it!

quote:

Originally posted by Carlsen Highway:
Bullshit. Lots of people were shooting elephants with small calibers in the old days. No one cared and they seemed to work just fine - .303, 6.5x54, .318 WR were common. It wasn't just Walter Bell at all.

Remember, the elephant cullers in the 1980's all used SLR's in 7.62 NATO.

Bell himself scoffed at this mentality, he called it "big bore snobbery".

Look if you can't understand what he meant when he said that a bull elephant shot over the heart with a 7x57 died just as quickly as when it was shot with a .450/400...with a solid bullet you are talking about a difference in the size of the bullet hole through the arteries over the heart, or in the brain. They are ALL fatal. And if you havn't hit the vitals it doesnt matter what you shot him with....

Would you hunt elephant at night..crop raiders..at short distance..with a 7x57..? Then you have a death wish my friend..

BTW..have you actually hunted elephant..?

quote:

Originally posted by Pondoro:

quote:

Originally posted by Carlsen Highway:
Bullshit. Lots of people were shooting elephants with small calibers in the old days. No one cared and they seemed to work just fine - .303, 6.5x54, .318 WR were common. It wasn't just Walter Bell at all.

Remember, the elephant cullers in the 1980's all used SLR's in 7.62 NATO.

Bell himself scoffed at this mentality, he called it "big bore snobbery".

Look if you can't understand what he meant when he said that a bull elephant shot over the heart with a 7x57 died just as quickly as when it was shot with a .450/400...with a solid bullet you are talking about a difference in the size of the bullet hole through the arteries over the heart, or in the brain. They are ALL fatal. And if you havn't hit the vitals it doesnt matter what you shot him with....

Would you hunt elephant at night..crop raiders..at short distance..with a 7x57..? Then you have a death wish my friend..

BTW..have you actually hunted elephant..?

Sport hunters don’t hunt elephants at night!

Some do..such hunting is advertized by at least one Zim operator..

But the question was if .375 is sufficent for elephant..it is.

quote:

Originally posted by Pondoro:
Some do..such hunting is advertized by at least one Zim operator..

But the question was if .375 is sufficent for elephant..it is.

I will have absolutely no problem using it for elephants.

In fact, I have said before, if the 375 was not the minimum caliber that allowed for dangerous game, I would be using a smaller caliber.

And I would have exactly the same results I have been getting.

It is an utter fallacy, like Taylor’s Knockdown Value, that a bigger caliber kills any better, even if you miss a vital organ.

Nothing inadequate with a .375 in shooting elephant; it will do a good job.

Enjoy the expanded discussions on calibres larger than the .375, it's a discussion with no end......ever.

For what its worth, and being an opinion, as a PH, I've had the fortune of testing many calibres in the field, which has helped me to determine my rifle of choice, remembering too that a PH must consider how best to handle a charge. The 416 Rigby suits me just fine.

quote:

Originally posted by drongo:
Is a 375 H&H really sufficient for elephants?

Marginal !

For an brain shot maybe, and with a PH who is always well armed when it comes to elephant hunting.

Brain shot from the side doesn't always work, and are not possible under all circumstances, so that if you have to place an heart shot, you are much better armed with an big bore rifle caliber 45 and up.

I shot all my elephants with the cartridge 460 WBY-Magnum or the cartridge 500 Schüler.

quote:

Originally posted by grandveneur:

quote:

Originally posted by drongo:
Is a 375 H&H really sufficient for elephants?

Marginal !

For an brain shot maybe, and with a PH who is always well armed when it comes to elephant hunting.

Brain shot from the side doesn't always work, and are not possible under all circumstances, so that if you have to place an heart shot, you are much better armed with an big bore rifle caliber 45 and up.

I shot all my elephants with the cartridge 460 WBY-Magnum or the cartridge 500 Schüler.

And I shot most of mine with a 375!

Non of them complained!