quote:

Originally posted by 470EDDY:
I am wondering if an elephant is easier to take down than a Cape Buff??

Experience and alot more reading is making me think so??

SIZE MATTERS.....?? Maybe not...??

No it is not.

Your first shot can determine the results.

Screw it up, with any animal, and you will have a hard time to finish it, regardless of the animal.

Trouble is, chasing a wounded duiker or impala is a bit different from chasing a wounded elephant.

That is the reason I have decided on using ne rifle for all my safari hunts.

Know your rifle, and know how to use it, under all circumstances

Had a bit of a discussion with my PH last year after a lion hunt.

Very late in the afternoon, we moved a bait from one place to another, and someone saw the lion walking towards us through a clearing.

We his behind a tree, and he kept coming.

Less than a 100 yards he stopped, not sure if he had sensed something was wrong.

And as he tried turning I fired a shot at him.

He took off at full speed, and there was no clear shot as he was running through the bush.

He growled for a bit, and then there was silence.

Sun was down, and terrible grass and mangled bush.

We followed where he ran - not a single drop of blood, but we knew he was hit.

The trackers were in front of me and Alan, I kept changing m position to be able to see ahead of them.

Alan noticed this, and this is what we talked about.

I said I just wanted to be sure of see ahead of them incase of a charge.

We found our lion dead after running about 80 yards.

Shot went in at the neck shoulder junction, and was found by his balls.

Similar thing happened a day later.

In the morning, saw the lion and tried to get close and a clear shot.

He kept his habit of lying down so no way to shoot.

Eventually we got very close - less than 20 yards.

He was lying down facing us, and as he got up I fired.

He ran a few yards and died in the grass.

This one we could see where he was.

same shot placement almost.

So again, your first shot must be in the right place.

Or regardless how big a caliber you are using, you will have a hard time on your hands.

Saeed,
Were you shooting a 375 H&H??!!

quote:

Originally posted by 470EDDY:
Saeed,
Were you shooting a 375 H&H??!!

No.

I was using its very close cousin, the 375/404.

And to be honest, I am not sure there would have been any difference.

The elephant story I mentioned was with a 375 H&H.

Being a bit of a tinkerer, I modify practically everything I use.

Keeps me busy, and out of trouble.

We go out to the desert.

One day I got a message from a friend with his location off Google maps.

He was asking if I was not too far, as him and two other cars were stuck, and needed help.

He said "If you are too far and cannot come, we will call a desert recue team"

Went over and got them all out.

Because the first thing I did to my Toyota Landcruiser was change the tires, change the suspension, got a set of tracks to carry in case I need in soft sand, got a balloon that inflates through the exhaust, installed a wench, and have a strong tow rope.

Same thing I did when I decided to use the minimum caliber required for dangerous game.

Got a decent case, modified it - my friend Dwight Scott, who built my first rifle for this cartridge, and who got the reamer made said when I asked him what to do "OH JEEZ! Not another one of those brain storms again!"

Then started making my own bullets, with a Corbin hydraulic press.

A bit limited what one could do in that, with dies and all.

Decided to get a lathe and make proper bullets, of any size, without too much hassle.

Got what was classified as a DESKTOP lathe, used in colleges to teach students.

Even the man running that company came over to show us how to use it.

Very nice machine, but bloody awful when it comes to consistent accuracy.

No two bullets are exactly the same in actual dimensions.

But, they actually worked.

I made some and took them hunting on safari.

Killed everything with them.

Penetration was fantastic.

Goes all the way through a buffalo lengthwise.

Accuracy wasn't very good.

1.5-2.0 inch groups at 100 yards.

Still worked, and I never missed anything with them.

I remember hunting with Pierre von Tonder.

Saw a warthog running through the bush.

One could only see him in bits ashe passed through a clearing.

I fired at him.

He tumbled in a dusty heap.

I said "what a poor unlucky pig! HE ran into the bullet!"

Pierre was laughing "He is DEAD!"

I said "I don't know why. I fired at an empty space"

Pierre "why is he DEAD then?"

"Bad luck I suppose!"

After that I decided to get a proper CNC lathe, and make accurate bullets.

The lathe I have now is extremely accurate in consistency.

I make my own bullets from 17 to 700 caliber.

They shoot extremely accurately.

Especially in my souped up 375.

Has a bit of more muscle that a 375H&H, but still a 375.

Bottom line is, I don't think the results I have been getting with it would be any difference with the standard 375 H&H, except bullet drop at long range.

I have no experience worth mentioning.
Phil Shoemaker did kindly answer one question for me about his choice of 458 Winchester magnum for the great bears. when he found the 30 06 inadequate, nearly getting him killed one time, he upsized to the 375 H&h. He did not find that met his needs either and settled on the 458. I believe he is satisfied with the 416 Ruger now but it was not available to him in the past.

quote:

Originally posted by brair:
I have no experience worth mentioning.
Phil Shoemaker did kindly answer one question for me about his choice of 458 Winchester magnum for the great bears. when he found the 30 06 inadequate, nearly getting him killed one time, he upsized to the 375 H&h. He did not find that met his needs either and settled on the 458. I believe he is satisfied with the 416 Ruger now but it was not available to him in the past.

I know one person who is NOT satisfied shooting an elephant with a 577 T. Rex too!

quote:

Originally posted by brair:
I have no experience worth mentioning.
Phil Shoemaker did kindly answer one question for me about his choice of 458 Winchester magnum for the great bears. when he found the 30 06 inadequate, nearly getting him killed one time, he upsized to the 375 H&h. He did not find that met his needs either and settled on the 458. I believe he is satisfied with the 416 Ruger now but it was not available to him in the past.

It is about bullet construction and where you hit them. The 375 is more than enough gun for Bear and penetrates well. I have carried all sorts of large calibers and gone back to my 404J as it is accurate and the rifle I am most familiar with.

quote:

Originally posted by brair:
I have no experience worth mentioning.
Phil Shoemaker did kindly answer one question for me about his choice of 458 Winchester magnum for the great bears. when he found the 30 06 inadequate, nearly getting him killed one time, he upsized to the 375 H&h. He did not find that met his needs either and settled on the 458. I believe he is satisfied with the 416 Ruger now but it was not available to him in the past.

There is a WHOLE LOT OF DIFFERENCE in a PH carrying a STOPPING rifle like Phil, Vs a client carrying an adequate rifle for the game hunted!!

That said, the 458 Win Mag has not been known for excellent performance as a Stopping Cartridge either... it was not loaded to Spec initially, or good tough bullets...it is probably much better today with quality Bonded SP or Solid bullets??

quote:

Originally posted by 470EDDY:

quote:

Originally posted by brair:
I have no experience worth mentioning.
Phil Shoemaker did kindly answer one question for me about his choice of 458 Winchester magnum for the great bears. when he found the 30 06 inadequate, nearly getting him killed one time, he upsized to the 375 H&h. He did not find that met his needs either and settled on the 458. I believe he is satisfied with the 416 Ruger now but it was not available to him in the past.

There is a WHOLE LOT OF DIFFERENCE in a PH carrying a STOPPING rifle like Phil, Vs a client carrying an adequate rifle for the game hunted!!

That said, the 458 Win Mag has not been known for excellent performance as a Stopping Cartridge either... it was not loaded to Spec initially, or good tough bullets...it is probably much better today with quality Bonded SP or Solid bullets??

So you seem to be saying that there is a difference in performance between stopping cartridges and adequate cartridges, the reason why PH's more often carry guns in stopping cartridges. Some are arguing here there is no difference it's all about proper bullet placement. I suppose those also say they don't wear seat belts when driving because there shouldn't be any accidents as they are a skilled driver and are able to get out of any situation, uhmmm right.

When I hunted Aussie buffalo with a hunting mate we didn't have a PH, we only had a guide who took us out. He shot buffalo for his pet meat business but shot only from his 4x4 with a 338WM. We followed buffalo into the bush but he wouldn't come as he said they are too dangerous. My mate had a 7x57 with 160gr Nosler Partitions and I my 404 Jeffery. After failing on his first body shot buffalo bull my mate had to stick to head shots while my 404 with solids flattened everything on the spot with chest and shoulder shots. It was a killer and did stop a charging bull in the bush at only a few yards from us. Dropped stone dead with a chest shot.

Our guide later in life farmed buffalo for his meat business and was caught and tossed by a buffalo and was extremely lucky to live after months in hospital.

Although I have been hunting for about 6 decades now and shot hundreds of game animals under all sorts of conditions I can never guarantee 100% to put the bullet in exactly the right spot.
If hunting with a PH I would be carrying a stopping gun not just an adequate gun.

I have always felt that if a big bore is what my PH and nearly all of the professionals in the field are using themselves, then that's what I will learn to shoot and use myself.

No training wheels or baby guns, thank you!

some people seem to have dividing lines, which are pointless.

PH v client.

Larger caliber v 375.

Non of this makes any point.

Some PH are not half as good as some clients.

A 577 T. Rex, in the hands of an experienced hunter, FAILED to penetrate an elephant's COW head.

How do you explain it?

Use the right bullet.

In any rifle you wish, and put it in the right place.

That includes the 375, OR ANY SMALLER CALIBER you like to use.

I know, it is not supposed to be legal, but I KNOW several people who had with complete success!

NOT A SINGLE ONE experienced a failure.

Saeed, I have never suggested that it should be done.

But I have sometimes wondered if the PH would pass the sight-in test that I have always taken at the outset of a safari!

At the end of day, use whatever rifle YOU are comfortable with.

Don't rely on the Ph to get your sorry arse out of trouble.

And most of all, do NOT tell others what to use.

Bigger is better?

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
At the end of day, use whatever rifle YOU are comfortable with.

Don't rely on the Ph to get your sorry arse out of trouble.

And most of all, do NOT tell others what to use.

Absolutely. The OP actually asked the question, "Is a 375 H&H really sufficient for elephants?"

I don't think anyone is telling the OP what to use, everyone is offering opinions based on their experience and preferences and providing references to other professional hunters who have had more collective experience in Africa than probably the sum of the whole AR membership. Anecdotal references have also been provided e.g. my PH said this or my hunting partner did that, etc.

I'm sure the OP will decide for himself which path he'll take if he is planning an African hunt on the large and or dangerous game.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
At the end of day, use whatever rifle YOU are comfortable with.

Don't rely on the Ph to get your sorry arse out of trouble.

And most of all, do NOT tell others what to use.

Bigger is better?

so true.

If bigger was really better, everyone should be hunting with a .700 NE. SHOT PLACEMENT!!

quote:

Originally posted by jdollar:
If bigger was really better, everyone should be hunting with a .700 NE. SHOT PLACEMENT!!

In my humble opinion, one reaches a point of rapidly if not immediately diminishing returns.

Right smack and right square at the .500 A-Square.

Beyond that wonderful caliber lie the many that are bigger but not better.

Until one reaches those in the class of howitzers.

Pretty sure the recoil from a .500 A square is enough to be worrisome. Pretty sure the recoil from a .416 or .375 isn’t. SHOT PLACEMENT!

quote:

Originally posted by jdollar:
Pretty sure the recoil from a .500 A square is enough to be worrisome. Pretty sure the recoil from a .416 or .375 isn’t. SHOT PLACEMENT!

I have used one for 25 years. All of my shots have gone where I have aimed them.

With devastating effect.

As Saeed has admonished, I don’t tell others what to use.

I speak only for myself.

quote:

Originally posted by Michael Robinson:
I have always felt that if a big bore is what my PH and nearly all of the professionals in the field are using themselves, then that's what I will learn to shoot and use myself.

No training wheels or baby guns, thank you!

Michael,
I agree. I did what you suggest.
I tried -
.458 WM
416 Rigby
416 Rem
450-400 3"
470 NE
375 H&H

I shot them all. I checked myself on what I could handle.
The big ones other than 416 Rigby rocked me too hard to enjoy shooting.

Being an ex-college footballer, weighing 250 and being 6' 3", I could not "get it" why the recoil was so impactful on my shooting.

So, I decided to stay with down loaded 416 Rigby and the 375 HH. I shoot those very well and like shooing them.

So, I fall into the camp of "shoot what you can handle and shoot well".

I have elephant hunted once. Got close but did not shoot. I was holding a 375 HH The elephant looked very big for that caliber. The PH had a 470 NE, so I felt a little more brave, but still did not take the shot.

Maybe next time....

The 404J is a big hitter and so is the 416 Rigby and the recoil is manageable.

quote:

Being an ex-college footballer, weighing 250 and being 6' 3", I could not "get it" why the recoil was so impactful on my shooting.

Your "center of gravity" is too high ... I weigh 140lbs fully dressed, stand 5'3" and shoot a 500NE which I must admit packs an uncomfortable punch at the bench with 3 shots being my limit.

That said, when the adrenaline is flowing you are oblivious of the recoil (as with most large bores) and its the bruises next morning that remind you of the episode.

Dogcat,

An elephant looks big no matter what you have in your hand. I've only shot one so far, with a .416, and must admit I had my doubts. I would have had the same doubts with a .700, and frankly, the .416 with good solids was likely the better tool. I look forward to the next one.