quote:

Originally posted by Neil-PH:
Nothing inadequate with a .375 in shooting elephant; it will do a good job.

Enjoy the expanded discussions on calibres larger than the .375, it's a discussion with no end......ever.

For what its worth, and being an opinion, as a PH, I've had the fortune of testing many calibres in the field, which has helped me to determine my rifle of choice, remembering too that a PH must consider how best to handle a charge. The 416 Rigby suits me just fine.

You will not as PH armed with an rifle caliber 375 H&H Magnum support an client by elephant hunting, or yes ?

All the PH I asked what kind of rifle they use for backup by elephant hunting, carried rifles caliber 458 and above. I think there's a reason for this, and stopping power is not the only reason.

quote:

Originally posted by Neil-PH:
Nothing inadequate with a .375 in shooting elephant; it will do a good job.

Enjoy the expanded discussions on calibres larger than the .375, it's a discussion with no end......ever.

For what its worth, and being an opinion, as a PH, I've had the fortune of testing many calibres in the field, which has helped me to determine my rifle of choice, remembering too that a PH must consider how best to handle a charge. The 416 Rigby suits me just fine.

Yeah Neil I did the 470 and 500 and now have gone back to my favourite being the 404J

In a charging scenario, you have to find the brain or vertebrae whatever the size of the calibre. And we don't really have anyone backing us up!

I'll find out in '25 in Zimbabwe....

quote:

Originally posted by grandveneur:

quote:

Originally posted by Neil-PH:
Nothing inadequate with a .375 in shooting elephant; it will do a good job.

Enjoy the expanded discussions on calibres larger than the .375, it's a discussion with no end......ever.

For what its worth, and being an opinion, as a PH, I've had the fortune of testing many calibres in the field, which has helped me to determine my rifle of choice, remembering too that a PH must consider how best to handle a charge. The 416 Rigby suits me just fine.

You will not as PH armed with an rifle caliber 375 H&H Magnum support an client by elephant hunting, or yes ?

All the PH I asked what kind of rifle they use for backup by elephant hunting, carried rifles caliber 458 and above. I think there's a reason for this, and stopping power is not the only reason.

The interesting question did Bell swap out the 7x57 under a follow-up situation?

quote:

...


And we don't really have anyone backing us up!

That's why the clients should make an effort to hunt elephants with suitable cartridge, meant to master big bore rifles in order to an good shot placement.

Big wound channels are always deadlier than small ones, especially in very large game, but no one believes that.

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:

quote:

Originally posted by grandveneur:

quote:

Originally posted by Neil-PH:
Nothing inadequate with a .375 in shooting elephant; it will do a good job.

Enjoy the expanded discussions on calibres larger than the .375, it's a discussion with no end......ever.

For what its worth, and being an opinion, as a PH, I've had the fortune of testing many calibres in the field, which has helped me to determine my rifle of choice, remembering too that a PH must consider how best to handle a charge. The 416 Rigby suits me just fine.

You will not as PH armed with an rifle caliber 375 H&H Magnum support an client by elephant hunting, or yes ?

All the PH I asked what kind of rifle they use for backup by elephant hunting, carried rifles caliber 458 and above. I think there's a reason for this, and stopping power is not the only reason.

The interesting question did Bell swap out the 7x57 under a follow-up situation?

Bell was a hunter.

He knew what worked and used it.

Bigger Is Better came along later!

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:

quote:

Originally posted by Neil-PH:
Nothing inadequate with a .375 in shooting elephant; it will do a good job.

Enjoy the expanded discussions on calibres larger than the .375, it's a discussion with no end......ever.

For what its worth, and being an opinion, as a PH, I've had the fortune of testing many calibres in the field, which has helped me to determine my rifle of choice, remembering too that a PH must consider how best to handle a charge. The 416 Rigby suits me just fine.

Yeah Neil I did the 470 and 500 and now have gone back to my favourite being the 404J

In a charging scenario, you have to find the brain or vertebrae whatever the size of the calibre. And we don't really have anyone backing us up!

Think the larger calibres brought about a bit of ego as well, a bravado so to speak, as "bar-talk" for younger PH's. I went for the .460 Wetherby for quite a while, spurred on more by ego and boasting about whose was bigger. Fortunately with age comes wisdom !!

I was hunting with Roy Vincent.

Found a bull we wanted to shoot.

We were walking parallel to him and getting closer.

I have my 375/404 and Roy had a 460 Weatherby.

We agreed beforehand that I would take a brain shot, while he backs me up with a heart shot.

As we got closer, the elephant sensed us and turned to face us.

I fired I to his forehead.

Roy fired for the heart through the trunk.

The elephant dropped dead.

We found that Roy’s bullet never made it to the elephant body.

Hit the trunk, and a made a 90 degree turn and off it went somewhere else.

Never causing any damage!

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
I was hunting with Roy Vincent.

Found a bull we wanted to shoot.

We were walking parallel to him and getting closer.

I have my 375/404 and Roy had a 460 Weatherby.

We agreed beforehand that I would take a brain shot, while he backs me up with a heart shot.

As we got closer, the elephant sensed us and turned to face us.

I fired I to his forehead.

Roy fired for the heart through the trunk.

The elephant dropped dead.

We found that Roy’s bullet never made it to the elephant body.

Hit the trunk, and a made a 90 degree turn and off it went somewhere else.

Never causing any damage!

There you have it.

I had a similar incident ultimately forcing my hand at retiring the 460.

Followed an elephant for hours, as usual.

Found him standing under a tree.

Got close.

He was facing away, so we waited.

Again, I was going to for the brain, and Roy for the heart.

The elephant sensed our presence, turned towards for a second, and turned to run.

As he turned I shot him in the head.

Roy was going for the heart.

The elephant dropped stone dead.

Roy's shot, 460 Weatherby Magnum, hit him in the leg just ahead of the heart.

He said he was leading him, as Walter was giving him a very hard time for a non killing shot!

He said "I didn't know he would drop dead so fast!"

I shot one big bull with a .375.

300 grain flat point solid. Chest shot, bullet found under the skin on the opposite side of the chest.

I don't believe anything about the size of a wound channel, with a solid bullet, between a .375 and a .458., on a 12 foot animal. Penetration counts.

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:

The interesting question did Bell swap out the 7x57 under a follow-up situation?

This is what Bell said about it:

"As regards rifles, I will simply state that I have tried the following: .416, .450/.400, .360, .350, .318, .275 and .256. At the time I possessed the double .400 I also had a .275. Sometimes I used one and sometimes the other, and it began to dawn on me that when an elephant was hit in the right place with the .275 it died just as quickly as when hit with the .400, and, vice versa, when the bullet from either rifle was wrongly placed death did not ensue. In pursuance of this train of thought I wired both triggers of the double .450/.400 together, so that when I pulled the rear one both barrels went off simultaneously. By doing this I obtained the equivalent of 800 grs. of lead propelled by 120 grs. of cordite. The net result was still the same. If wrongly placed, the 800 grs. from the .400 had no more effect than the 200 grs. from the 275. For years after that I continued to use the .275 and the .256 in all kinds of country and for all kinds of game. Each hunter should use the weapon he has most confidence in."

"At one time I used a double .450/.400. It was a beautiful weapon, but heavy. Its drawbacks I found were : it was slow for the third and succeeding shots ; it was noisy ; the cartridges weighed too much ; the strikers broke if a shade too hard or flattened and cut the cap if a shade too soft ; the caps of the cartridges were quite unreliable ; and finally, if any sand, grit or vegetation happened to fall on to the breech faces as you tore along you were done ; you could not close it. Grit especially was liable to do this when following an elephant which had had a mud bath, leaving the vegetation covered with it as he passed along. This would soon dry and tumble off at the least touch."


By the way I share his surname and was borne not long before he died. My great grandfather with that surname was a Scot, unfortunately not Karamojo or related as far as I'm aware.

Don’t forget Harry Manners and Wally Johnson shot over 1000 elephants each with a 375 H&H hunting ivory mostly in thick cover.

Either they were extraordinary shots and the cartridge was adequate or maybe just lucky over 2000 times.

One of the biggest FAKES in our sport, Mark Sullivan, says he only uses a 600 because they don't make any bigger!

He is lying of course, as they do make a 700!

'Harry Manners used no less than four of them throughout his career, in the process shooting in the region of a thousand elephant and hundreds of buffalo with them with no problems.'

Johan Van Wyk.

quote:

Originally posted by Cougarz:
Don’t forget Harry Manners and Wally Johnson shot over 1000 elephants each with a 375 H&H hunting ivory mostly in thick cover.

Either they were extraordinary shots and the cartridge was adequate or maybe just lucky over 2000 times.

They were intelligent enough to know what they are doing.

Unlike the nuts screaming BIGGER IS BETTER!

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by Cougarz:
Don’t forget Harry Manners and Wally Johnson shot over 1000 elephants each with a 375 H&H hunting ivory mostly in thick cover.

Either they were extraordinary shots and the cartridge was adequate or maybe just lucky over 2000 times.

They were intelligent enough to know what they are doing.

Unlike the nuts screaming BIGGER IS BETTER!

Remember that for every old ivory hunter or PH guide hunter who used a 375 there were many more who used the larger calibres.
Taylor, Jamieson, Hunter and others all clocked up over 1000 elephants plus hundreds upon hundreds of other big game, Hunter especially culled hundreds of rhino, all these and many others used rifles and guns larger than the 375.
More modern day PH's also used bigger bores much more so than the 375. Harry Selby started off with a 470 double until it was run over and damaged then stayed with a 416 Rigby for decades and I understand also used a 458 Win later in life.

I think all these guys had plenty of intelligence.

When you get your 1000th elephant, hundreds of rhino and hundreds of other big game, then Saeed you can join those other great elite hunters of years past on whose accomplishments and opinion we should respect

quote:

When you get your 1000th elephant, hundreds of rhino and hundreds of other big game, then Saeed you can join those other great elite hunters of years past on whose accomplishments and opinion we should respect

Wow! That's quite a bold statement and challenge! Wisdom tells me that it's not something that you would find me making to our gracious host.

quote:

Originally posted by eagle27:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by Cougarz:
Don’t forget Harry Manners and Wally Johnson shot over 1000 elephants each with a 375 H&H hunting ivory mostly in thick cover.

Either they were extraordinary shots and the cartridge was adequate or maybe just lucky over 2000 times.

They were intelligent enough to know what they are doing.

Unlike the nuts screaming BIGGER IS BETTER!

Remember that for every old ivory hunter or PH guide hunter who used a 375 there were many more who used the larger calibres.
Taylor, Jamieson, Hunter and others all clocked up over 1000 elephants plus hundreds upon hundreds of other big game, Hunter especially culled hundreds of rhino, all these and many others used rifles and guns larger than the 375.
More modern day PH's also used bigger bores much more so than the 375. Harry Selby started off with a 470 double until it was run over and damaged then stayed with a 416 Rigby for decades and I understand also used a 458 Win later in life.

I think all these guys had plenty of intelligence.

When you get your 1000th elephant, hundreds of rhino and hundreds of other big game, then Saeed you can join those other great elite hunters of years past on whose accomplishments and opinion we should respect

Of course, bigger is better, and I mean no disrespect by making that statement to anyone at all, least of all our host, whose experience in these matters is unequaled by nearly anyone still alive.

And also of course, the use of a well-constructed bullet and good marksmanship are even better than bigger, beyond a certain minimum point of big enough, also of course.

Well-constructed bullets are now easily obtainable; this has not always been the case during the not-so-long history of elephant hunting with firearms.

But when the chips are down, good marksmanship is sometimes elusive. Close enough has to suffice, as in the hurling of horseshoes on Sunday afternoons, or perhaps more on point, hand grenades during battle.

So bigger is better.

Please don't make me define "bigger."

There is a difference between a stopping rifle needed by a PH and a hunting rifle used by a client….

I am absolutely certain I will never get to even 100 elephants!

And I am sure I will not live long enough to shoot a 1000 buffalo.

The hero of BIGGER IS BETTER is very well known.

MY NAME IS MARK SULLIVAN. I AM THE WORLD FAMOUS PROFESSIONAL HUNTER.

I AM HATED BY EVERY ONE! OTHER PROFESSIONAL HUNTER DO NOT HAVE THE BALLS TO DO WHAT I DO.

THEY FO NOT USE THE GUNS I DO

THIS IS THE 600 NITRO EXPRESS! THEY DONT MAKE ANY BIGGER!

JUST LIKE ME!

NO ONE EVEN DARES DOEHAT I DO!

When it comes to hunting, Mark Sullivan sums it up

The bigger the gun you use, proves that you certainly have a bigger rear orifice

quote:

Originally posted by Use Enough Gun:

quote:

When you get your 1000th elephant, hundreds of rhino and hundreds of other big game, then Saeed you can join those other great elite hunters of years past on whose accomplishments and opinion we should respect

Wow! That's quite a bold statement and challenge! Wisdom tells me that it's not something that you would find me making to our gracious host.

Ha ha I don't think Saeed minds a challenge, look how it triggered him to bring his old friend Mark into the conversation

Saeed and I do agree on one thing, that old workhorse 404 Jeffery case is a marvel, Saeed stoking it with .375 bullets and me with the original .423 bullets

My very first elephant.

Remington Safari rifle in 375 H&H Magnum.

Standard FMJ factory ammo - I think it was Winchester.

Elephant behind a tree.

Roy said for me to move to the side, and Brain him.

I have already worked it out in my head!

FIRE

RELOAD.

FIRE.

RELOAD.

And so on.

Imagine my total shock when the elephant dropped stone dead at the first shot!

This is a VERY INTERESTING thread, and the answers are clearly varied as they should be!! Clearly, there are different answers today than 30 years ago or even WDM Bell times!! In Bell times, there were no rigorous borders of Country, Parks and designated hunting concessions, 30 years ago there were far fewer borders where you could lose your trophy if you didn't anchor your elephant and it ran for miles!! Today there are MANY critical borders where you can lose your trophy if not anchored!!... country, parks, and adjoining hunting concessions of other outfitters!!
Being and Expert, vs a first timer is also a HUGE factor!! WDM Bell was an EXPERT, and he DID LOSE some Elephants, but he studied and made anatomical drawings from autopsies he performed on the Brain as well as the Heart and Lungs and the arteries that fed both. He skillfully positioned himself to target these areas with surgical accuracy, including from a ladder in the tall grass to shoot at the elephant's brain from behind, the most vulnerable entry point!!
There are a couple of old guys written about in the historical books that TWICE, shot elephants with a 22 Rim Fire!! My old late PH John Northcote tells of that, and claims to have also demonstrated shooting an elephant with a 22!! They don't go down immediately, you must track them, maybe for miles, as they bleed out from a heart, lung or artery shot!! John told me that you must shoot from the Left side, and the left front leg must be extended fully forward to place the bullet into the heart or lungs!! Then be ready to run/track for miles while he bleeds out!!
Poachers do NOT use 375's or Doubles either, mostly AK-47 with military solids... they are effective too, and elephants do get away to suffer too!! Cullers, same story, 308 Win Military, 375 H&H... and bigger...
Fact is that WDM Bell not only used the 275 Rigby/7x57, but he also used the 318, and 256, and 303!! The fact here is that bolt rifles were cheap, ammo was cheap... think old Scotsman, and MUCH lighter in weight for the bearers to carry for these 1,2 and 3 year safaris they had to carry on their back packs, max 66 pounds each!! They could carry far more of the above than expensive and heavy double rifle ammo up to 600NE and 4 Bore, although he tried them, and had one available for back up. It was all about logistics/!!... in addition to cost of bolt rifles vs Doubles, and cost of ammo!!
Today, the story is MUCH DIFFERENT, especially with the restrictive Country, Park and Concession borders where hunters will lose their trophies if not anchored quickly!! Further, most hunters, it will be their first Elephant, and maybe ONLY Elephant they are lucky enough to be able to afford and hunt??!! Not an expert, even if a great shot!! Saeed and PHs here ARE EXPERTS and can use their rifle of preference because of skill and experience. I shot my only elephant, within 200 yards of the Hwange Park border, in the Zim Forestry Concession at 33 paces with my 470, side brain. EXHILLERATING!! The very old Bull went down with the first shot, we ran up and put in a spine, then on the other side a heart shot... done!! That may be my only elephant due to my age and present opportunities??!!
An old friend and expert ballistician and hunter say that the key here is the diameter and long length of the bullet that generates the greatest penetration and effectiveness. Almost likened to the length of the waterline on a displacement yacht or ship... the longer, the faster "Hull Speed..." The longer the bullet to its diameter, the better ballistics and penetration!!
It seems to me that with today's restrictions and constraints, one should choose the biggest caliber, with the longest bullet, that he/she can expertly and effectively handle. End of story, then shoot straight, and make sure your PH has a bigger gun to back you up!!
Frankly, having shot a number of Buffalo with a 375H&H, I think it is light for the beast, but it worked, including one, one shot kill, heart shot... after running 100 yards... I have, and can afford and shoot, a Custom 416 Rigby bolt gun I am and would be more comfortable with, and also my 450-400 3" Jeffrey Double and my Manton 470...for Buff and Elephant!!
Good Luck and Shoot Straight to the Right Spot!!

CheerZ,

Great thread! And 470Eddy's, almost summary, post certainly provides excellent history and context!

I was fortunate enough to get a real nice large bodied Botswana 51 pounder with Johan Calitz about 15 years ago. That 'only elephant' makes me an expert in the neighborhood and among my non-Africa hunting friends. My 450/400 worked just fine because I was quite familiar and comfortable with that rifle, and I mostly complied with the guidance of an excellent PH. Even then I was beginning to suspect how little I actually knew...

Good hunting,

quote:

Originally posted by Emory:
Great thread! And 470Eddy's, almost summary, post certainly provides excellent history and context!

I was fortunate enough to get a real nice large bodied Botswana 51 pounder with Johan Calitz about 15 years ago. That 'only elephant' makes me an expert in the neighborhood and among my non-Africa hunting friends. My 450/400 worked just fine because I was quite familiar and comfortable with that rifle, and I mostly complied with the guidance of an excellent PH. Even then I was beginning to suspect how little I actually knew...

Good hunting,

Emory, I have been wondering how you were doing since it has been a long time since I've seen you. Good to see your post.

quote:

My 450/400 worked just fine because I was quite familiar and comfortable with that rifle, and I mostly complied with the guidance of an excellent PH. Even then I was beginning to suspect how little I actually knew...

Isn't that the truth! You do feel somewhat insignificant when standing so close to one with rifle in hand, wondering what did I get myself into!

The 450/400 3" Jeffrey double was the last rifle that WDM BELL hunted elephants with!!
Also the the same rifle Corbett hunted with and killed the famous Man Eating Tiger... and many more!!

CheerZ,

INSIGNIFICANT.... FOR SURE!!
John Sharp's cold hand on my shoulder was trembling with EXCITEMENT as he whispered guidance for my shot... at 32 PACES...into my ear!!
Something I will never FORGET!!
And how many times had he been there!!... and this was the first animal I shot with him...he had no idea if I could hit the broad side of the Barn!! Now that is GUTS!!

A week later at MALANGANI, now Bubeye Conservancy, we had a big laugh in the Leopard blind, when he thought I froze up!!... I was just waiting for the huge male to position for the perfect shot!!... but that's another story...

Elephants are a special beast... and we have had a number of close run ins with them!! Wife included!!... in Botswana camps, and bush, Zulu Nyala photo safari from a cruise ship...and more!!

BIG RESPECT... BIG CAUTION if not with a GUN!!

YES, I hope to hunt them again!!... but I am very pleased that I received many tail hair bracelets, huge pieces of belly skin that are now 2 gun cases, two beautiful travel duffels, Ivory, the upper back leg bone-femur,two pairs of Russell custom boots,two custom oil paintings on full ears- RYAN PERRY,and 4 Ele-foot stools covered with zebra skins.
Note-Elephant ears are full skin on both sides with cartilage between. Lots of leather here!! One pair of my custom Russell boots are made from the inner ear panels, 2 spectacular paintings on the full outer panel. You know the African Elephant ear is an exact replica of a map of Africa!!! One painting displays a map with all of the historical country names, with indigenous species and tribes depicted... a treasure!! The other is the head of a charging Bull, depicting my tusks!!
We ceremoniously ate some of the tail cooked on a Mopani fire, while our trackers and skinners reduced the beast to meat for the locals!!

Seems like yesterday!!
I enjoy my treasures every day!!
CheerZ,

I have done a lot of elephant hunting . At bad breath range , no gun ever seems big enough to me .

The smallest I have used is a 416 Remington. I am sure a 375 will do the trick. I prefer my 416.

LIKED-

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:
"I have done a lot of elephant hunting . At bad breath range , no gun ever seems big enough to me ."

-

The late David Powell of Guns International fame, may have shot more elephants than any modern hunter!! He took them with the Big BP doubles like 8 Bore and 4 Bore, 577-20ga, and 600NE, 500NE... on and on... but just last night I heard he killed one with the lowly 308 Norma Magnum!! I don't know the circumstances, but a credible source. I will check it out further and report!!

I remember some outdoor show on TV many years ago. A woman killed and elephant with a 30-06 with 220 grain solids.

What I find so stupid about this argument is the simple fact more elephants are killed by the 375 than probably any other caliber!

We are back to the old days of which is better ab270 or a 30-06!

Have at it!

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:
I remember some outdoor show on TV many years ago. A woman killed and elephant with a 30-06 with 220 grain solids.

Harriet Maytag did this as well.

I shot my Lion with a 375H&H... it almost ate me on follow-up, 2 hours later...but that is a story for another day!!

As has been said many times here, and many other places...SHOT PLACEMENT IS EVERYTHING!!

quote:

Originally posted by 470EDDY:
I shot my Lion with a 375H&H... it almost ate me on follow-up, 2 hours later...but that is a story for another day!!

As has been said many times here, and many other places...SHOT PLACEMENT IS EVERYTHING!!

EXACTLY!

No idea how many lions I have shot.

Non required any follow up.

And only three I shot twice.

Not because it was necessary, but because I could see them rolling on the ground still alive.

And I don't take chances.

Several of the lions I shot were followed up on foot, not on baits.

SHOT PLACEMENT DOES IT EVERY TIME!

I shot my first 2 Cape Buffalo with my newly acquired pre-64 Mod 70 Winchester, 375 H&H, Botswana 1984. I was young and no dangerous game experience.

First one was a frontal shot at 60 yards, low in the chest. To stir up my wife PH John Northcote quoted CAPSTICK from DEARH IN THE LONG GRASS!!... OMG- GROAN from her.... it ran off about 60 yards and crupmed!! Skinning proved I center punched the heart!! SHOT PLACEMENT!!

Second was in the middle of a herd of 400+ we snuck into!! 20 yards, Lung shot... and herd pandemonium!!... off he went!! John said "You Missed"...to rile my wife, we heard the WHACK, and he stumbled thru a bush and on... we caught up where he was being shadowed by others, I put in a Texas Heart shot from 100 yards... he went down in another 50 yards... and as I came up along side he tried to get up... I put in another lung shot... ran around behind him and put in another lung shot... FINALLY done!!

This has been my pinnacle at 46 3/8" x 18 1/8" total 126 3/8"... #3 SCI when it came in 1985...

So with this one, I still question the power of the 375H&H and effectiveness on Buff... they are known to soak up lead, even with 4 good shots!!... this leads me back to my earlier comments on shooting the largest bore/power you can handle effectively, and be sure of PLACEMENT, PLACEMENT PLACEMENT!!

Thousands of Big 5 have been shot with the 375H&H, probably more than any other or all others put together!!??... I still choose BIGGER!!... but I also just purchased a 375 Flanged Mag... Moose in Grizzly country will be firstfirst...

CheerZ,

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:
I remember some outdoor show on TV many years ago. A woman killed and elephant with a 30-06 with 220 grain solids.

wife of JOC did it too. my boss the late R J montvoisin guided more than a few hunters not only huntress with a 30-06 and 220 gr fmj ... he was a fan of 460 wea mag ... for back up.

I am wondering if an elephant is easier to take down than a Cape Buff??

Experience and alot more reading is making me think so??

SIZE MATTERS.....?? Maybe not...??