Volume 19 Number 4,

Steve Ahernberg wrote the article and I couldn't possibly agree with him more. PH's work for YOU not the other way around. This whole come a client leave a friend BS is just that BS. These guys are NOT your friend they are providing a service and nothing more. They'll be trash talking you ten minutes after you leave camp, that's fine we are all "gomers' in their eyes, just understand what the true basis of your relationship with a PH is. Keep it a bit distant businesslike and don't be afraid to speak up if you see something that is bothering you or needs attention or change during YOUR hunt. It's your hunt, you paid for it!

If it wasn't for us paying the bills these guys wouldn't be able to do what they do, WE provide them with their lifestyles. I absolutely agree with Steve that we as clients are to blame for their cavalier attitudes towards us. These guys are NOT rockstars they should not be gushed over or spoiled, they do not deserve freebees or gifts and not only no, but hell no you aren't going to come over here and stay free at my house. I would never offer and you should not ask. You can get a hotel room and pay your own daily fee for that just like I have to when I visit your country on a hunt. We have spoiled these guys with our admiration and generosity it is time to reset the boundaries. They work for you they provide a service, they are not your friends and thePH client relationship should be kept friendly but businesslike.

Thank you Steve Ahernberg for writing that article it was baddy needed!

What an (un)inspiring view . . . sounds more like an attempt to generate chatter and mindless commentary going back and forth. Suffice it to say, life is full of examples, hunting aside, of business associates that became friends and friends that became business associates. There is nothing that says the notions of business and friendship are mutually exclusive.

It depends on who you hunt with.I enjoy hunting with people who like hunting as much as I do and this makes them my friends.There are people who go hunting and although they may say they like hunting I dont feel they really do.This is not just in Africa but where I live-I seem to make friends with those that like hunting.I can tell you also that some of my hunting friends are also clients and I know that when they stop by here and make a purchase they feel a little like it is there home.

What a terrible attitude to have in dealing with people!?

Let us forget hunting for a minute, what about other service providers we deal with in our normal life?

Looking back, I find that most of the people I deal with HAVE become my friends.

This is because I appreciate a job well done, and honest dealing.

I would rather deal with someone I KNOW any time I have the chance.

Hunting is no different.

Steve can certainly address whether he had some bad experience that has brought him to the point, if I understand this correctly, of not being able to envision a PH he hunted with as a potential friend.

I know he has kept in touch with, and adamantly supported, Laura and Johnny du Plooy on this very forum in the past. I don't know if he considers them friends or not. Certainly he alone can make that call. It's individual.

The term "rockstar" came up in a telephone conversation he and I had years ago. I can't remember if I used it initially or he did. You can certainly see examples on this forum where some PH's are given that status by posters. Again, it's individual.

I've hunted with Johnny du Plooy. Laura has kept in touch with Joyce throughout her cancer battle from a very personal battle of her own. They are friends and welcome in my home anytime.

Andrew and Julie are welcome in my home anytime.

My "rockstar" taxidermist and his wife are welcome in my home anytime and have shared my dinner table. Hell, even Wendell (haters gonna hate) has.

When Jerry and I talk about mounts it's business. If I were ever to book with Andrew or Johnny again it's business. Doesn't stop me from enjoying their company or conversation outside of hunting or taxidermy.

Brett B and I have hunted together way more than once. Neither of use financially profited from it and we are friends. Has Brett ever told an embarrassing story about me? I'm sure he has.

I think Steve's article is important for newbies to read. I also think the topic is NOT one size fits all.

Cheers
Jim

surestrike,you need a remedy like to go hunting with a good group and enjoy.You must be working too hard-I can tell by your attitude.
This man also required a remedy but a different kind.

I always tell my employees there are two things they need to have:
1. Ability to learn
2. Ability to take feedback

And I tell them they need to give me feedback, because I can't change if I don't know.

I think the same holds true for a PH/client relationship. You have to give feedback if you are upset about something, but you need to take if from them as well. Like any good relationship, these are often done in a subtle manner.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
What an (un)inspiring view . . . sounds more like an attempt to generate chatter and mindless commentary going back and forth. Suffice it to say, life is full of examples, hunting aside, of business associates that became friends and friends that became business associates. There is nothing that says the notions of business and friendship are mutually exclusive.

You are correct that there is nothing to say that business associates cannot become friends, they can. However those business associates must first earn your trust and respect through their actions.

Read Steve's article and see what your take on it is.

And Mike if you think I post stuff for the mindless purpose of generating back and forth commentary I am guessing that you've got me pegged wrong.

quote:

Steve can certainly address whether he had some bad experience that has brought him to the point, if I understand this correctly, of not being able to envision a PH he hunted with as a potential friend.

It'll make more sense after you've read the article. Steve was specifically talking about the propensity of some PH's to trash talk clients after they've left camp.

I will say however that I stand by my post in that we need to be more realistic about what a PH/client relationship truly is. Steve specifically mentions being asked to bring over a brick of .22LR's. The PH is asking him to break the law. Friends don't do that and business associated most definitely should not. I have also been asked to "stuff" some ammo into my gun case that is not for the caliber on my license. I simply won't do it and should not be burdened with the request.

I won't speak for Steve, but my take on it is sure a PH can become a friend but lets not go into this deal with stars in our eyes. These guys are working for us, providing a service. Don't let your overblown admiration for them stop you from speaking up if something is going on that you are not happy with. IE, Keep it real. Exactly like AZ mentions above BTW.

quote:

Originally posted by surestrike:

quote:

Steve can certainly address whether he had some bad experience that has brought him to the point, if I understand this correctly, of not being able to envision a PH he hunted with as a potential friend.

It'll make more sense after you've read the article. Steve was specifically talking about the propensity of some PH's to trash talk clients after they've left camp.

I understand that. Thanks for pointing it out. It's the reason I didn't say anything about our Namibian PH being welcome in my home. He's probably a good example of what Steve is reflecting on.

I suppose the difference between a paid PH saying something about any of my actions in camp or the field and Brett B. saying something is the $$$$.

I wonder if the Vincents ever told a story around the campfire about Walter crossdressing in camp if that would be taken badly by Walter or Saeed?

Just sayin'

Surestrike, I get what Steve is saying about talking behind someone's back.

Cheers
Jim

quote:

I think Steve's article is important for newbies to read. I also think the topic is NOT one size fits all.

Yep! With as many safaris ass he's had I'm sure he has had some bad experiences. In my 5, I had one terrible one. That PH and outfitter where both POS's, but others have had good hunts with them........


.

I think that article tells me a lot more about what kind of person Steve A is than supplying sound, balanced advise to those starting out. Way too sharp, way too New York pushy. Glad I'm not a PH.

quote:

Originally posted by Navaluk:
I think that article tells me a lot more about what kind of person Steve A is than supplying sound, balanced advise to those starting out. Way too sharp, way too New York pushy. Glad I'm not a PH.

I get what Steve is saying. Some I agree with, well a lot actually, but some I don't. I have been fortunate to have some great PH's that were great people. One in particular who I helped establish his business; I wouldn't piss on if he was on fire even though some on here treat him like the second coming. He is in fact the biggest shit talker on clients I have ever heard of. So I guess I am lucky and have relationships I value and ex-ed out the ones that I don't. Results may very.

Jeff

quote:

Originally posted by Bwana Bunduki:
One in particular who I helped establish his business; I wouldn't piss on if he was on fire even though some on here treat him like the second coming.
Jeff

Enquiring minds and all.....feel free to share publically, by PM or tell me to piss off.

Cheers
Jim

Sorry but I enjoyed every minute with my PH and the host families.

Quite frankly I can't remember hearing any bashing of past clients

Kinda sux that anyone would prevent a possible friendship over pushing a buisness attitude.

I will just be myself and enjoy life.....there are already enough pricks in the world

Sorry if I offended you Ted. That was not my intent.

I've had both. One that has stayed in my home on a trip to the states with his lovely bride and then, those that would be welcome to find a motel. One of my hunts to South Africa, I hunted with Andries and Steffie Van Wyck. They became instant friends and have remained so. To the point that if I were to go back and hunt with them, there would be no daily fees for me or my wife. The others, not so much. I have sat around 4 different campfires and listened to the PH's talk about the previous clients, how bad they shot, what shape they were in, how much they drank, etc. Makes you stop and wonder what they say about you when you leave.

If I had this attitude towards dealing with people, AR would probably have never existed.

Years ago, I wanted to buy a computer.

In those days, there was IBM and Compaq available here.

I went to the IBM showroom.

The salesman there had a could not careless attitude, which is a guaranteed turn off for me.

I left and went to the Compaq dealer.

I was met by the owner himself. He sat down and explained to me the difference between the models he had.

I bought a desktop, and asked for someone to help me set it up.

The same day he brought it himself, and helped me set it up.

Not long after I had a problem with the computer.

He turned up with a friend of his from the US.

None other than my friend Don.

I have been friends with both ever since.

I have known their families, they have known mine. My daughter calls Don Uncle Don.

Last week both gentleman were here in my house.

Life without friends is rather shallow, I would imagine.

quote:

Life without friends is rather shallow, I would imagine.

Let me fix that for you Saeed, "Life, Without TRUE Friends Is Shallow!"

Don't really know anything about your world Saeed, but in the one I have grown up in, there are at least 3 types of friends.

True friends are the ones that never ask why, you call on them, they drop everything they are doing and come to your aid and help any way they can.

Acquaintances are those folks that are congenial and will help as long as it really does not put out them out.

Fair Weather friends are those folks that will stand by a person as long as they are profiting from it. At the first sign of real trouble, they cut a trail, usually never to be seen again!

I have experienced all 3. You may not have, but that would really surprise me considering your position of power and authority.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
What a terrible attitude to have in dealing with people!?

Let us forget hunting for a minute, what about other service providers we deal with in our normal life?

Treating people with decency and honesty goes a long way, but that does not necessarily transform into friendship.
In business you can build respect and high regard for someone and it can be reciprocated, but you still may not necessarily
become their friend or part of their personal life....friendship is an optional mutual thing.

There are some service provider operators where respect or friendship is just not possible, because of their poor character and dishonesty.

This being a hunting/gun board, custom rifle makers make a perfect example.

Some are solid as a rock in business and character, where others have proven to be pure liars,frauds,thieves & low act scoundrels.
Best to support the good ones in business and let the rubbish wither away.

Just remember also that, too much familiarity between people can also become a breeding ground for contempt.

Is there a link to this article somewhere?

Not that I am aware of. I read it in the print magazine.

Steve:
Your well-writtn article is spot on. Yes, not every PH fits in a mould like we do not, but you touch on many areas that are prevalent in today's hunting world--and not just in Africa. Nearly every PH I've had degrades past clients about their shooting, physical condition, etc. Sone in good sport and jest and others character assassination. What you wrote needed to be said. Maybe not only hunters but PHs will learn from your words. Including a couple of PHs who talked openly of a past client's wife and/or daughter and now "hot" they were, of the romantic sounds coming from the client's tent, even guessing bra (cup) size, and a client's daughter who was having sex with the camp staff. It's like Facebook--there are really no secrets in the hunting camp.
Cheers,
Cal

Very nice anecdote, Saeed. And spot on. I'm sure there are people out there like the original poster warned of. If I encountered one, I wouldn't hunt with them again.

If I believed that was the norm, I think I'd quit hunting altogether. I have the opposite problem. I want to keep going back not just to hunt, but to see old friends, and friends of friends, who I've met. And, I want to go back to more places than I can afford in terms of time and money to see old friends. I feel like I'm offending one person, by booking with someone else, or offending one PH, by hunting with another PH, especially if they are freelancing.

Unfortunately, it has kept me from going to some places I have never been before.

Do the PH's I've hunted with tell stories on me? I hope so. I tell stories on them too. And I've messed up and there are a number of real object lessons out there for other clients. I hope they take full advantage.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
If I had this attitude towards dealing with people, AR would probably have never existed.

Years ago, I wanted to buy a computer.

In those days, there was IBM and Compaq available here.

I went to the IBM showroom.

The salesman there had a could not careless attitude, which is a guaranteed turn off for me.

I left and went to the Compaq dealer.

I was met by the owner himself. He sat down and explained to me the difference between the models he had.

I bought a desktop, and asked for someone to help me set it up.

The same day he brought it himself, and helped me set it up.

Not long after I had a problem with the computer.

He turned up with a friend of his from the US.

None other than my friend Don.

I have been friends with both ever since.

I have known their families, they have known mine. My daughter calls Don Uncle Don.

Last week both gentleman were here in my house.

Life without friends is rather shallow, I would imagine.

AMEN

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:
Steve:
Your well-writtn article is spot on. Yes, not every PH fits in a mould like we do not, but you touch on many areas that are prevalent in today's hunting world--and not just in Africa. Nearly every PH I've had degrades past clients about their shooting, physical condition, etc. Sone in good sport and jest and others character assassination. What you wrote needed to be said. Maybe not only hunters but PHs will learn from your words. Including a couple of PHs who talked openly of a past client's wife and/or daughter and now "hot" they were, of the romantic sounds coming from the client's tent, even guessing bra (cup) size, and a client's daughter who was having sex with the camp staff. It's like Facebook--there are really no secrets in the hunting camp.
Cheers,
Cal

I absolutely agree that the piece needed to be written. If for no other reason than a wake up call to some of these guys who've allowed themselves to get too lose in the tongue around mixed company.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
If I had this attitude towards dealing with people, AR would probably have never existed.

Years ago, I wanted to buy a computer.

In those days, there was IBM and Compaq available here.

I went to the IBM showroom.

The salesman there had a could not careless attitude, which is a guaranteed turn off for me.

I left and went to the Compaq dealer.

I was met by the owner himself. He sat down and explained to me the difference between the models he had.

I bought a desktop, and asked for someone to help me set it up.

The same day he brought it himself, and helped me set it up.

Not long after I had a problem with the computer.

He turned up with a friend of his from the US.

None other than my friend Don.

I have been friends with both ever since.

I have known their families, they have known mine. My daughter calls Don Uncle Don.

Last week both gentleman were here in my house.

Life without friends is rather shallow, I would imagine.

That's a nice story. However, many business dealings don't turn out so well. I own a business and a customer I thought was a friend just closed his business and reopened under a new name and screwed me out of a $1,000 receivable he owed me. Many people will pretend to be your friend for purposes of business. That doesn't mean they are really your friend. Hunting relationships are no different and I approach them as a business transaction not a friendship. As long as I am writing the check to pay the tab I'm the customer.

Nut:

Respectfully, then, could I suggest that you are not a very good judge of character? Or did I offend, yet again, ... as usual, one more time, ...

You've never offended me that I know of and no offense taken here.

Perhaps I am a bad judge of character or maybe I am just guilty of being too trusting but that aside to put hunting guides on some special pedestal above other business relationships is to me simply naive.

Squirrel:

You will get no sympathy here from being screwed by a BK. Many posters think it is business as usual.

I'm a lawyer, and my family and friends give me the worst about this, but it's especially important among family and friends to reduce any agreement to writing. Even more important than when you are dealing with third-parties. Why? You want to continue to be friends. Disagreements between friends are all the more difficult and should be avoided.

There was a thread running a few weeks ago on “The Client” where Steve actually posted the article too. I am not clever enough to find it and link it... sorry. But I have pasted it below.

In the follow up to his article, we have taken some comments from AR from that earlier thread, as well as direct feedback from readers - some PHs too - and done a bit of a follow up piece in the next issue Volume 19 No.6 (at the printers now).

A little debate is always good, and if it makes both ends of the spectrum see the middle ground a little more clearly, then publishing articles like The Client has served an enduring purpose.


The Client
By Steve Ahrenberg


I may be young, I may be old. Perhaps I am athletic and in shape or maybe a bit long in the tooth and round in profile. I may come for lion and leopard or I simply come for an impala or a kudu. Who I am is the international hunting client and what I am about should have been written long ago. It may be uncomfortable and frankly unpopular; nonetheless the topic needs to be broached.

We, the international hunting clients of the world fuel this industry, make no mistake. Without us the professional hunters of the world, whether good or bad, wouldn't be able to live the lives of their dreams. Only due to the clients’ collectively pursued passions are they able to walk daily amongst the magnificent antelopes and grim beasts of Mother Africa. I am sure the professionals of which I speak will have some disagreement with this. I understand, and only bring these things to bear for stimulating thought - on both ends.

Somewhere along the way things, in my opinion, have gone horribly askew. On my last few trips overseas, I have begun to take notice of certain repeated behavior patterns displayed by some very well-known professional hunters. Some were in destinations I was only able to dream about in my younger years. Places of danger, places of intrigue. Fantastic places were hunted and some extraordinary creatures were pursued, successful pursuits in most cases.
I have come to the conclusion that "they" - some PHs - now somehow think international sport hunting is all about them. We, the sport hunting community are guilty, guilty of creating some of these ego-driven, self-promoting personalities. Some of us are willing to even pay a premium to go afield with the "stars" of the industry. Why?

After you are safely aboard the charter on your way out of camp, you are the brunt of stories, jokes and anecdotal foul-ups for the next wave of "stumbling halfwits". We willingly plop down a year’s salary or more for the hunts of our lifetimes. It matters zero to many of them if you show up prepared physically and mentally, if you’re able to shoot, and you can see the animals. You will be treated the same as a first-timer that stumbles around homesick for twenty one days with your muzzle pointed at the back of their head and complains, of blisters, the heat or no ice for the cocktails.

I have formed these opinions from my own and unique position of experience. Having thirty three safaris in twenty one separate trips overseas I’ve hunted nearly all sub-Saharan African countries.

And have collected the majority of her bounty. I am comfortable in my own skin and make no apologies. I claim no special hunting skills, only an ability to read people with an acute aptitude of situational awareness.

I write this in Heathrow, on a layover coming back from a Botswana elephant hunt. I sat one day on this last safari, at lunch listening to a PH of record and another PH that was between safaris. They openly made sport of guys, guys just like me. Guys with businesses, guys with jobs or perhaps retired. We return home to our families. The professionals return to the bush and make sport of me and others to the next "client". Funny thing, in all the stories, the fools they speak of don't have names, just "client". We never take a moment to think that they feel the same about us. I maintain it's time to quit the game when the names and the faces all become one long blur of pictures, hunting stories and blown shots. These safaris mean far more to us than they do them. This may be the one and only chance many of us get to experience these places and pursue these beasts.

I have even discussed these thoughts with one of the PHs one evening around the fire. His take was this: we finish with the hunt, get on a charter and go back to our safe lives and leave them to clean up the messes we create with our poor shooting. There is probably a lot of truth to his statement.

The romance and traditions of Africa are a powerful aphrodisiac. They draw us back time after time. I know it has me. Personally, I take my responsibility as a sport hunter extremely seriously. I show up fit, both physically and mentally. A twenty one-day safari is a long one, at times you must focus to take things one day at a time and keep your head in the game. I also bring only rifles I can shoot and take shots I am virtually certain I can make. The last thing I want is to wound something the next client or PH must deal with.

How many stories have we all heard about client’s wives, or even daughters? Think yours are any different? They are flesh and blood just as we are.

For some untold reason, the international hunting community has assigned a “rock star” status or hero worship to many of these PHs. Perhaps it’s because I can think of no other “sport” where we can participate, side by side with a professional at anything.

It's November, the phone calls start and the emails arrive. They are asking about coming over for a visit between the hunting conventions. We feel honored to have a "professional hunter" actually want to stay at our homes. We buy them dinner, take them places, and they drink our finest single malt. We may even try to help them and book more "bumbling clients". We take days off work or away from our businesses to entertain them. Maybe it makes us feel like we are in their inner circle or within their appreciated sphere of influence.

You actually believe that you are somehow different or special. We even see it as some kind of a badge of honour that a real professional hunter from Africa has chosen me as a friend. These are superficial friendships at the very best.

Come as a client, leave as a friend?

It may be hard for some to accept these concepts, learned the hard way. I have many friends and acquaintances who go back to Africa every year and hunt with the same guys, the same guys that behind closed doors refer to one honourable, successful and admirable man as “a gomer”.

Personally, I have decided to change my approach. Moving forward, I will no longer go alone and look for any sort of companionship from these guys. I will now go with a pal or my wife and treat them as they should be treated, as an employee of sorts. No real difference than your relationship with your taxidermist, your dentist or the guy you just bought your new F250 Super Duty from.

Now, they can celebrate "their" successful kills and I can have my own celebration with someone who is genuinely happy for me. The attending PH can take as many high-quality trophy photos of himself for self-promotion as he has taken of me, and I could not care less.

I once hunted with a guy that never once took a photo on his camera with me in the shot. Seems kind of nuts, but that act alone gave me the awareness to start becoming a student of this behaviour. He showed me his iPod one evening in camp. All of his pictures were of he alone, no "client" to be seen. This particular “Professional” must see the client as no more than a tool to do "his killing" for him.

Honestly ask yourselves, could any one of these guys be successful enough in business to afford to pay for one of the safaris that they ridicule us on? How about personal relationships, failed marriages, questionable vehicles and finances. I wouldn't trade my life for theirs for any amount of money. I also am sure they would say the same about my life. But we don't make fun of, nor ridicule them, do we?

Have you ever finished a safari early? Have there been suggestions of perhaps side trips? Do these side trips usually require a trip home for some reason? I think many clients prefer to just "go with the flow" and not make mention of things that probably don't sit right with us.

After all, you really do want this guy to like you, right? I used to feel that way, and would say nothing. "Hey Steve, do you mind if my wife, girlfriend, brother-in-law, whatever comes into camp". Well, yes I do. I now just spit it out and keep communication as open and as honest as is possible.

I have never left a safari early, not at my own request anyway. It was suggested once that, I could go home early if I wanted. I didn't, but took the suggestion as he preferred I be elsewhere so rearranged my family’s trip home to the order of $2,800 for changing the prearranged itinerary.

I really feel that poor communication is the biggest component of a safari gone bad. You as the paying client cannot keep your mouth closed if something bothers you. You need to stop things right then, and tell the PH what it is you want, or don't want, or what he does is bothering you in some way. It is your adventure, you're paying the bill. As long as it's not something weird or increases their cost, it should be granted. If you being popular with this guy is more important than your satisfaction on this safari, by all means, be the nice guy.

I no longer go to the same place with the same professional time after time. I now see more of what Africa has to offer and give. I have also noticed that the same animals behave differently from country to country and game management areas. I also get to experience many different hunting styles. I will have a much richer bank of experience to call upon for stories to my children and grandchildren.

There is plenty of blame to go around here. I think we, the clients can be overbearing at times in our invitations to the PH's to come and visit. This goes back to the hero worship or rock star thing. Conversely, the professionals could just as easily tell us, they are on a tight schedule, prior commitments, whatever. My personal belief is; it has devolved into a PH being able to pick and choose who he would rather spend a few days with while in America. Can't say as I blame them for that. I'm sure many clients are a bore to be around. Think about this; nearly 24 hours a day seven days a week for up to 28 days, with a guy you really don't care for. That may very well include me, after all, you can pay anyone to be your friend.

I truly hope my words are read as they are meant. I only wish to help someone else not repeat the same mistakes in safari hunting I have made. Keep things friendly yet, impersonal. It can be difficult, basically living with a guy, you tend to look up to a bit and not personalize the relationship.

All these things being said, I have enjoyed every minute of every day while hunting in Africa, I have made, what I thought to be close friends. As long as I feel that way that's what's important.

Could you just bring along a brick of .22s? Does this one sound familiar? I have been asked by more than one PH if I could "just throw a brick of .22s, 12gauge, .375 etc. ammo in my bag". I chose to not spend my vacation in some African jail or trying to explain away why I have not declared it. I also probably don't have a firearm that matches the stuff in my gun box. So, the answer is, "No", and it should be yours as well.

Why do you think it is that we get requests for things? Sometimes I think we just bring gifts along unrequested. iPods, Oakley sunglasses seem to be a popular request. I've been guilty as well.

Perhaps it's just me. Maybe I'm burnt out on these musings. Hunting in Africa should be pure: it's raw beauty and savagery, her primal hunting fields. Not some popularity contest. I believe it has been corrupted, corrupted possibly by us, the clients. A good friend of mine Andrew Baldrey coined this timeless and appropriate phrase: "Africa is about the men and the dust and the diesel, it sticks to your skin and cannot be washed away, nor does it wane".

"Good Story", that is (one) reason why I allmost go: SELF GUIEDED.

Hi Ant,
Thanks for posting it up. My apologies to Andrew for the misspelling of his name.

I knew and intended this piece would be thought provoking when I wrote it.

Steve

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
What a terrible attitude to have in dealing with people!?

Let us forget hunting for a minute, what about other service providers we deal with in our normal life?

Looking back, I find that most of the people I deal with HAVE become my friends.

This is because I appreciate a job well done, and honest dealing.

I would rather deal with someone I KNOW any time I have the chance.

Hunting is no different.

I have to say I agree with Saeed. Almost all of my service providers for my business are friends too.

If I don't like them enough to be friends with them...I damn sure ain't going to give them any of my hard earned money...if I can keep from it.

That said...I expect a lot out of my friends, don't use the word freely, and hold them to the same set of standards as I hold myself too.

Am I completely wrong? Over the past few months it seems that many or a majority of the members of this site have lost sight of the fact that all of us on here view life and all of is associated actions/happenings differently, and as an individual we are entitled to do such.

I had not taken the time to Thank Ant for the copies of his magazine that he sent me recently. I appreciate his generous gesture and one of the magazines is the one Steve's article appeared in. The magazines themselves are quite good and to me at least are a refreshing change from what most hunting magazines have changed into.

Concerning the "Client" article however and my opening statements however, it appears to me at least that many folks have a problem with other folks having opinions/thoughts/beliefs that they feel are in some manner present a "Negative" image concerning a particular activity.

In this case it just happens to be one individuals opinions concerning their Personal concepts concerning the "Relationship" between a client and a professional.

The difference as I view it, is that, just as with the ongoing/self-resurrecting discussion concerning tips/gratuities, when the discussion concerns hunting, realistically it can not be compared with normal daily business activities or a night on the town.

Lane mentioned the people he deals with concerning business supplies, and yes it is good to have a good working relationship with those folks, but in reality it compares in no manner to spending a week/10 days or maybe a month, basically living day in/day out with a person or group of people that other than a basic enjoyment of an activity, hunting, that you really have nothing else in common with.

It is okay to develop a friendship if that is possible, nothing wrong with that, but it is also perfectly okay to view things from a totally practical point of it being or amounting to nothing more than a business deal, and for many it may be or will be just a one time business deal.

Having been on both sides of the equation, as the guide or as the client, when a person goes into a camp, which ever side they are on, they know or should know, that there are probably only so many things every person in camp will have in common.

Steve and I have had our differences in the past, and even though we do get along better now, apart from hunting and fishing interests, and being human beings, there is really probably little we as individuals have in common.

I think Steve's article is very good and realistically describes how many people view the type of relationship that takes place between a professional and many or maybe the majority of their clients.

I think it is refreshing to see a little reality brought to light on subjects such as this.

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:
Am I completely wrong? Over the past few months it seems that many or a majority of the members of this site have lost sight of the fact that all of us on here view life and all of is associated actions/happenings differently, and as an individual we are entitled to do such.

I had not taken the time to Thank Ant for the copies of his magazine that he sent me recently. I appreciate his generous gesture and one of the magazines is the one Steve's article appeared in. The magazines themselves are quite good and to me at least are a refreshing change from what most hunting magazines have changed into.

Concerning the "Client" article however and my opening statements however, it appears to me at least that many folks have a problem with other folks having opinions/thoughts/beliefs that they feel are in some manner present a "Negative" image concerning a particular activity.

In this case it just happens to be one individuals opinions concerning their Personal concepts concerning the "Relationship" between a client and a professional.

The difference as I view it, is that, just as with the ongoing/self-resurrecting discussion concerning tips/gratuities, when the discussion concerns hunting, realistically it can not be compared with normal daily business activities or a night on the town.

Lane mentioned the people he deals with concerning business supplies, and yes it is good to have a good working relationship with those folks, but in reality it compares in no manner to spending a week/10 days or maybe a month, basically living day in/day out with a person or group of people that other than a basic enjoyment of an activity, hunting, that you really have nothing else in common with.

It is okay to develop a friendship if that is possible, nothing wrong with that, but it is also perfectly okay to view things from a totally practical point of it being or amounting to nothing more than a business deal, and for many it may be or will be just a one time business deal.

Having been on both sides of the equation, as the guide or as the client, when a person goes into a camp, which ever side they are on, they know or should know, that there are probably only so many things every person in camp will have in common.

Steve and I have had our differences in the past, and even though we do get along better now, apart from hunting and fishing interests, and being human beings, there is really probably little we as individuals have in common.

I think Steve's article is very good and realistically describes how many people view the type of relationship that takes place between a professional and many or maybe the majority of their clients.

I think it is refreshing to see a little reality brought to light on subjects such as this.

For me...it is exactly the same as I approach everything I do in life with the same set of standards, ideals, and expectations.

But...I agree...each to his own. Just as I would hate hunting with someone I could not like as a firend. I was just presenting a different point of view.

quote:

Life without friends is rather shallow, I would imagine.

Saeed, we can surely agree on this!


,

For the better part, the article that Steve put together is good. I can see many similarities in the story, especially the camp fire story about prior hunters. Heck we all could improve our shooting a little, and take rifles we know how to put together and shoot well. Again we all could be in better shape, being able to walk 4 miles in under 1 hour in sandy soil is different than climbing up and down steep mountains. Many times these PH's are 20 to 40 years our junior and in great shape. I have learned that if the PH's want to keep up a break neck pace, i let them go, when i get there i get there.

Upon taking my wife on my last safari, i think she invited most of the individual she met along the way to come for a visit. I was even volunteered to play travel guide if they planned there trip to the USA well in advance.

As my recent PH indicated to me, you pay me to be your guide and to hunt, not to be your friend. Also, i do the looking, you do the shooting, so get ready to shoot when i tell you to. Also are you comfortable in making the shot from here? And can you make the shot. This could be out to 400 yards, you have to make the call.

One thing that i am looking at, is going to different areas for future hunts. Therefore, i am usually looking at different countries and or animals and that usually results in a different outfitter and PH's. However, i could still be in the same African country from prior trips with a different view.

If a PH that i like has different areas and animals, then i am all ears in listening to a future safari marketing plan.

quote:

Just as I would hate hunting with someone I could not like as a firend. I was just presenting a different point of view.

Was not meaning to disparage your point of view Lane. Even though I ain't done hundreds of guided hunts as the guide, I have done enough to have hunted with folks that I really would not want to be friends with. Same with hunts where I have been the client or one of the clients, and the same with hunts where a friend or acquaintance of mine brought along a "friend or acquaintance" of theirs.

It is just a difference in people. I am sure a lot of people I have dealt with in my life feel the same way toward me, but that is their option.

I also believe that depending on age and upbringing each of us have a different definition as to what constitutes "Friendship".

I know some folks that if they are simply on civil/cordial speaking terms with another person, considers that person as a great friend. The other person may not feel that way, but that does not matter.

Most people want folks to like them and usually they want to like other people, but that in my opinion is unrealistic in humans.

A guide, fishing or hunting normally has to keep in mind that a booked trip is a business transaction. The "Client" has to do exactly the same.

Each party can be civil/social/cordial with each other, but they have to keep in mind that it is a business transaction and as such there are strictures on the behaviors of the parties involved.

If an actual friendship develops that is great, if it does not, that is no indication that either party is at fault, it is just the way things work out.