Jorge, excelent kudu trophy

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Originally posted by David Hulme:

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Originally posted by Blair338/378:

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Originally posted by jorge:
Here's a good case study for you Karl & others, one is straight up and almost in and one out. He went 58 3/4/58 1/2. jorge

That is a good one jorge

Karl, Charl, Andrew, Rudi..........what do you think??

Maybe its right side is fully mature!


I'm afraid that I don't really go with the 'tips must be outward turning for it to be mature' theory. Of course, it stands true in many instances, but not all. There are too many exceptions to the 'rule'. Just my three cents.....

David

Great cricket match by the way - congratulations SA!

great kudu but he had a stroke thats why his one side looks different from the other look at the ears the chevron and the Horns

jorge & Blair,

What do I think?

One can make some comments on the fact that the photographer should have moved a bit to the right to get the horns in the relatively "open and free of trees" space now between the tracker and hunter. The photographer could also have gotten his camera closer to the ground to get the horns against more blue sky background. One can comment that the hunter should be behind the horns and not the PH. I was taught that the "honorary" position is that the hunter sits on the head side, and the PH on the tail side. Quite correctly the photo have the trackers - who probably saw the kudu first - on the tail end. One can make comments about the PH's dress style, or lack thereof. One can comment that the rifle with bolt closed is pointing almost directly at a tracker's head. One can comment that the kudu's tail is not nicely spread out. One can make comments [racist or factual] about the relative visibility of the faces of the trackers vs. those of the hunter and the PH. One can comment that the kudu was hunted in early winter - grass brown but trees still some leaves. One can make lots of other comments about the hunter's belief that copper bangles help for rheumatism, the PH's probable Catholicism, his long hair, sweatband and maybe a few less obvious things.

I really wonder about the very distinctive white lines of the kudu. Must admit that I've never really looked at how these differ, but IMHO this is one with very obvious white lines.

But what you want me to do is to admit that I'm stumped! And I do admit that if I saw the left horn in the early days of a client's safari, I would probably have advised him to pass up the shooting opportunity. The 'probably' is because if the left horn was visible for long enough to carefully look at it and see the depth of curl I do admit that even I would be tempted to have my client shoot such a long horned "prime breeding" kudu. Considerations to shoot or not based on only seeing the left horn would include my relationship with the property owner: It could be on a property where I just acted as a "freelance PH" and not very likely to soon or ever hunt again, or it could be on a property where I hope to hunt for many years. If I saw the right horn on the first day, or any other day, I would have whispered "Shoot, this is a shooter!" If I had a long time to study the right horn only I would have included the words "And please don't make a FU, this is a wonderful trophy." after the instruction to shoot.

If I had a long time to study both horns I really would have told my client: "Shoot if you want 1/2 a kudu trophy, one with a very split personality?"

Admission: I'm stumped! If the cricket umpire gives you the 'one up sign' in reply to a shouted "Howzat!", then you're out. I'm out, and walking back to the change room.

I will however maintain and stick to the statement: "Any kudu with horn tips pointing outwards is an old kudu, probably past prime breeding age, or nearly so, and a shootable trophy." Since seeing the photo I'll reserve judgement on kudu with horn tips pointing inward. At least until I see both horns.

In good hunting.

Andrew McLaren

PS. I hope the hunter left a good enough tip in recognition of the right horn so that his poor PH could buy a shirt!

quote:

Originally posted by jorge:
Here's a good case study for you Karl & others, one is straight up and almost in and one out. He went 58 3/4/58 1/2. jorge

Pardon my interjection gentlemen but is that Tarzan as PH...??

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I'm afraid that I don't really go with the 'tips must be outward turning for it to be mature' theory. Of course, it stands true in many instances, but not all. There are too many exceptions to the 'rule'. Just my three cents.....

David, I do not know who you quoted above, but it was certainly not me...
This is what I did say regarding the tips:

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Now to be considered mature, I believe a kudu bull should have one of the following horn shapes:
a) long, sharp points that point upwards, not inwards anymore
b) shorter, blunt points that point upwards
c) Long or short points that point out again.
If the horns are still pointing to each other, that bull is immature, and should be left to breed, especially if it is very long.

Now a lot has been said about one inward pointing horn, I clearly stated in the original post that "hornS still pointing TO EACH OTHER".
Jorge, your bull is a beautiful, fully mature bull, and the very slight inward kink of his left horn, (note, it is NOT pointing in), might be because of an slight injury when he was younger.

Karl,

I was not quoting anyone. I believe that the general consensus on this thread is that the tips should be pointing out for the bull to be fully mature. I agree that inward pointing tips represent an immature bull, in the vast majority of cases. All I am saying is that there are too many exceptions for one to go on the outward pointing tips as a general rule of thumb.

My final thought on this educational thread is this: A qualified professional hunter should be able to look at a kudu bull and know pretty fast whether it is a mature or immature specimen. The horn tips are often a good indicator of maturity, as are other factors. I wouldn't get too excited about whether a guy shoots a bull that's no longer breeding, and one that has a year or two of breeding to go, so long as it's a mature trophy (not going to grow any more) and the hunter is satisfied. The void will always be filled, if the hunting area is a well managed one. Check out the big leopard in Namibia thread. Was that leopard still breeding? Who knows and who will ever know. What is the difference between leopard and kudu or any other animal? Nothing.

BTW, your points re horn tips/maturity all make a lot of sense.

That must make it 4 cents worth!

Happy holidays, David

quote:

Originally posted by David Hulme:
Karl,

I was not quoting anyone. I believe that the general consensus on this thread is that the tips should be pointing out for the bull to be fully mature. I agree that inward pointing tips represent an immature bull, in the vast majority of cases. All I am saying is that there are too many exceptions for one to go on the outward pointing tips as a general rule of thumb.

My final thought on this educational thread is this: A qualified professional hunter should be able to look at a kudu bull and know pretty fast whether it is a mature or immature specimen. The horn tips are often a good indicator of maturity, as are other factors. I wouldn't get too excited about whether a guy shoots a bull that's no longer breeding, and one that has a year or two of breeding to go, so long as it's a mature trophy (not going to grow any more) and the hunter is satisfied. The void will always be filled, if the hunting area is a well managed one. Check out the big leopard in Namibia thread. Was that leopard still breeding? Who knows and who will ever know. What is the difference between leopard and kudu or any other animal? Nothing.

BTW, your points re horn tips/maturity all make a lot of sense.

That must make it 4 cents worth!

Happy holidays, David

+1

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Originally posted by Macifej:

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Originally posted by jorge:
Here's a good case study for you Karl & others, one is straight up and almost in and one out. He went 58 3/4/58 1/2. jorge

Pardon my interjection gentlemen but is that Tarzan as PH...??

Mac,

That's John Sharpe

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One can make some comments on the fact that the photographer should have moved a bit to the right to get the horns in the relatively "open and free of trees" space now between the tracker and hunter. The photographer could also have gotten his camera closer to the ground to get the horns against more blue sky background. One can comment that the hunter should be behind the horns and not the PH. I was taught that the "honorary" position is that the hunter sits on the head side, and the PH on the tail side. Quite correctly the photo have the trackers - who probably saw the kudu first - on the tail end. One can make comments about the PH's dress style, or lack thereof. One can comment that the rifle with bolt closed is pointing almost directly at a tracker's head. One can comment that the kudu's tail is not nicely spread out. One can make comments [racist or factual] about the relative visibility of the faces of the trackers vs. those of the hunter and the PH. One can comment that the kudu was hunted in early winter - grass brown but trees still some leaves. One can make lots of other comments about the hunter's belief that copper bangles help for rheumatism, the PH's probable Catholicism, his long hair, sweatband and maybe a few less obvious things.

A new contender for the picking fly shit out of pepper award post, but I'll respond in kind;

The photographer was a 19 year old "babe" who incidentally spotted the kudu before the trackers and *I* chose the pose for all the guys, with myself in the middle. I have plenty of other photos with me behind the horns. The rifle was not pointing at anybody, in fact I made quite sure of that and it was checked before the bolt was closed. In my view open bolt rifles in pictures look like the user is making a statement of "hey look how safe I am I left the bolt open!"
The kudu's tail? Give me a break, that's like looking at a picture of a large breasted woman and commenting her feet are not well photographed. As far as the trackers faces, well, you'll have to ask God about that one. The kudu was taken in Sept, so much for that idea. The PH is John Sharp who needs no recognition and I believe he's Anglican and as far as his dress, well I'll let you take that up with him. Lastly, the fact he works out on a regular basis I doubt he wears the copper for rheumatism, but again you can take that up with him. So I guess it was good you withheld comment as they would have been mostly wrong and totally off topic.

But Karl & others, thanks for the comments & compliments. jorge

quote:

One can make some comments on the fact that the photographer should have moved a bit to the right to get the horns in the relatively "open and free of trees" space now between the tracker and hunter. The photographer could also have gotten his camera closer to the ground to get the horns against more blue sky background. One can comment that the hunter should be behind the horns and not the PH. I was taught that the "honorary" position is that the hunter sits on the head side, and the PH on the tail side. Quite correctly the photo have the trackers - who probably saw the kudu first - on the tail end. One can make comments about the PH's dress style, or lack thereof. One can comment that the rifle with bolt closed is pointing almost directly at a tracker's head. One can comment that the kudu's tail is not nicely spread out. One can make comments [racist or factual] about the relative visibility of the faces of the trackers vs. those of the hunter and the PH. One can comment that the kudu was hunted in early winter - grass brown but trees still some leaves. One can make lots of other comments about the hunter's belief that copper bangles help for rheumatism, the PH's probable Catholicism, his long hair, sweatband and maybe a few less obvious things.

Andrew, will you be posting a post on how to take trophy photos please.

Switch the camera on aim push the button and say cheese or watch the birdy

Rudi,

I have found especially with male clients asking them to say the word "SEX" gives the biggest grin or smile

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I have found especially with male clients asking them to say the word "SEX" gives the biggest grin or smile

Frederik, I wonder who taught you that one...?

Sjoe Andrew, now you stepped in it...John Sharp is one of the most well known and loved PH's in Southern Africa, and his shirtless and sleaveless photo's are his trade marks. He was voted PH of the year in Zim. for 2007, I believe, but might be wrong.

There has been a lot said about Kudu bulls here, and a lot informative. What John Hulme said rings true. An experienced PH does not have to thinks twice to know if it's a shooter or not. We, as the Pro's, must just not fall before the pressure of getting the clients bull on the last day, and settleing for one not old enough.

Maybe you guys should import a bit more Kudu into the Free State so that you can study them better.... Just a silly joke, and I know you have hunting areas in the bushveld!

I hope every one learned from this thread.

Karl, next time I'll quote you on it
With the swedish clients I use another word in swedish which is related to sex that works extremely well.

I had the great pleasure, in the early 90s, of sharing camp with John Sharp a couple of times. He is one of Zim's most highly experienced and
capable PH's. Many guys have a lot of respect for John, and not just because of the muscles! When I shared camp with him, he would do a couple hundred pull-ups at lunchtime, in the Zambezi Valley! As suggested, that's not why I have respect for him - he is an excellent PH.

I don't think the odd joke regarding his attire (or lack thereof)would faze John much. When I knew him, he took the ribbing in his stride. A big man in a number of ways.

Dave

Here's another vote for Sharpy as a real nice and very professional guy...... Sure, the long hair and lack of shirt etc create a certain image, but John is much, much more than the image portrays.

He's what we in England might call a 'real diamond geezer'

Interesting thread guys, maybe I'm being a bit thick here but would a kudu with points going straight up after the second curl constitute a 'mature' trophy?

In any case, here is my submission for the experts:

Didn't seem particularly old to me, but I'm happy with the hunt.

We should do a similar thread for other game animals, impala etc.

Bog, very nice bull, and fully matured.

sticks and stones may break my bones but words will never hurt me

do things different and people will remember you they never remember the norm its the flaws or things that is preceved as flaws that creates an experience its all about expectations the higher the expectation the easier it is to disapoint

Another case study:
Kudu bull with horns tipping in

I shot this Kudu because he was in poor condition and would have died within the month from starvation, his teeth was finished even his molars was heavily worn, I estimate this bull to be between 11-12 years old. The bone was visible on the left horn from brooming his horns down over the years. The horns was really thick at the tip approximately 2-2 1/2"

To classify Kudu bulls as being mature just on their horns tipping up and out is presumptuous. I also look for other factors like pot belly, roman nose and the base of the horn colour (should be as the rest of the horn not lighter or reddish in colour) Keep in mind Nutrition while horns are in growing stage, genetics and injury are key factors in horn development.

Here I would like to guote Vaughan:

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Originally posted by Vaughan Fulton:
Not all "old" Kudu bulls go through the turns with tips pointing up or out, like not all "old" Springbok have tips that hook backwards or "old" Hartebeest that have tips flaring outwards or "old" Buffalo with horns dropping down and tips pointing back or no tips at all, etc.

I think it is fair to say that one can look at the tips of a Kudu bull as one of the indicators or references but do not make it the deciding factor of whether the Kudu Bull is old or not.
After sexing an animal, I normally look at the horn bases of almost all the antelope species first before moving to lengths, shapes etc. IMO, it is advisable to use a combination of things to look for when deciding on the animals age and "shootability", horn bases(colour not thickness), general shape and coloration of horns, "tips", as well as general appearance of the body such as coloration, body and coat condition (Things like bones showing, lack of hair, etc.), etc.

Also remember when you're hunting and a Kudu bull suddenly steps out or you pick each other out at almost the same time and a decision has to be made quick before he bolts or the opportunity for a shot is lost,.........
Also we should remember that one cannot take away the experience of a hunt because the measurements were not up to scratch or the age was questionable as the animal has been killed and you cannot bring it back to life. A friend once said to me the best trophy is the one on your wall...I think all true hunters try to do the right thing but things happen.......

But my no means taking away what Karl and others said about horns tipping outwards it is a good general indicator of a mature bull plus it is more pleasing on the eye.

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Mac,

That's John Sharpe

I knew that..!!

Who's John Sharpe..??

Here's another one where the horns don't flare out or come straight up. This one was shot in Zimbabwe in October of 2007 and measures 59" on one horn and 58 1/2" on the other, with about 2 1/2" missing off of one horn. The hair on the neck of this Kudu was also in short supply, and his teeth were well worn.

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Originally posted by Macifej:

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Mac,

That's John Sharpe

I knew that..!!

Who's John Sharpe..??

Steve and the other guys have given you enough info.........

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Originally posted by Use Enough Gun:
Here's another one where the horns don't flare out or come straight up. This one was shot in Zimbabwe in October of 2007 and measures 59" on one horn and 58 1/2" on the other, with about 2 1/2" missing off of one horn. The hair on the neck of this Kudu was also in short supply, and his teeth were well worn.

Lovely bull UEG..........but now I'm really confused as to the tips as a criterion for maturity, especially when the bull was lacking in coat and his teeth were worn.....and you consider the bull that Roger took as well........I've come to the conclusion that tips are are only part of the equation....

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Originally posted by Safari-Hunt:
Karl, next time I'll quote you on it
With the swedish clients I use another word in swedish which is related to sex that works extremely well.

Good one Frederik

Do your female Swedish hunters react in the same way?

Here's one I took in Namibia '05. Not the best by tape measure standards, but by age he's definitely an old one. Tips are very blunted, over an inch of "ivory" on the tips, never mind how they point, and you can see where the horns are worn smooth on the front surfaces.

Caleb,

In my book that is one heck of a trophy!

Don

UEG,

Unfortunately your bull could have gone another year or so it is big and I doubt if a lot of ph's would have let you pass on this one. Even if the photo show it's green, October before good rains is when kudu bulls look their worst. Kudu bulls conditions can vary a lot between April and the rain season at the end of October or begining of November with loosing up to 40% of their body weight during that time because of the rutting and fighting and then missing out on eating well while fighting. That could explain loss of hair.

Nampon, Look at this example


The left horn (from front view) is starting to point upwards and the right one is still pointing back a bit. This bull was shot in September of a dry year 2005 notice lack of hair all over body as well as the hip bone sticking out this bull was really in bad shape but he was not yet fully mature when the horn stops growing he was marginally on the border so he could have been left for next year but then again would he have made it ???

Bog and Cable, excellent examples of mature kudu bulls

Blair, I know the male version of the word in Swedish as well but have not had any Swedish female hunters yet to try on.

Frederik: So, does that mean in another year he would have been pushing well over 60"? He would have been 61" or over on the one horn had he not broken or worn part of it off. Dang, I should have waited. . .

UEG,

I must confess if I was the PH 2 years ago I would have said shoot him as well ??? I have learned from then but yes he would have pushed 60" plus. Big bull still cannot take that away from him.

quote:

Blair, I know the male version of the word in Swedish as well but have not had any Swedish female hunters yet to try on.

Something to look forward to

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Originally posted by Use Enough Gun:
Frederik: So, does that mean in another year he would have been pushing well over 60"? He would have been 61" or over on the one horn had he not broken or worn part of it off. Dang, I should have waited. . .

Well said!

Problems with body condition have been well expalined by FrederikI agree with him on this, but not only because we wear the same hunting boots, also because it is true. I passed a bull that was a def. 60 in August, because the point of the horns were still "lying" back. I might get him again 09, maybe not, that's hunting.

Nampom, in my limited experience (hunted and guided well over 100 bulls)I must respectfuly disagree. There might be the odd exception, BUT your Kudu's must eat rocks mate, for their teeth to worn out before those points turn up.

IMO the teeth will only be worn out if the bull is realy old, about 10+ years. I have yet, in South Africa, to see a old, teeth worn out bull, with tips of the horns lying back.

Interesting also is the Namibians coming out with other point of views. Vaughn and Nampom's posts refers. Might it be that Kudu in Namibia develops differently?

And now to REALY throw a stone in the pond! I have watched and photographed maybe 50 big Bulls in the Addo National park on two seperate occasions. I only saw 1 Bull with points flaring slightly out, and not one with points straight up. But this is the smaller Eastern Cape Kudu. I have seen some posts on this forum with big Kudu coming out of the EC, but don't recall one over 52"???

Thanks to all the hunters that posted their pictures, they are all great bulls. We do not want to take ANYTHING away from you guys, but this is a VERY interesting and learning topic for me, and one discussed informaly at the PHASA 2007 AGM at great lenghts. I can say that 90% of the PH's there agreed on what KarlsS said in his first post....

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Interesting also is the Namibians coming out with other point of views. Vaughn and Nampom's posts refers. Might it be that Kudu in Namibia develops differently?

No.

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Originally posted by Karl S:

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Interesting also is the Namibians coming out with other point of views. Vaughn and Nampom's posts refers. Might it be that Kudu in Namibia develops differently?

No.

Might it be, then, that Namibian and South African PH's develop differently?
Gee, don't think we'd better get in to the development of Zim PH's!!

Dave

QUOTE]
No.[/QUOTE]

Did'nt think so.

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Originally posted by infinito:

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Originally posted by Use Enough Gun:
Frederik: So, does that mean in another year he would have been pushing well over 60"? He would have been 61" or over on the one horn had he not broken or worn part of it off. Dang, I should have waited. . .

Well said!

Problems with body condition have been well expalined by FrederikI agree with him on this, but not only because we wear the same hunting boots, also because it is true. I passed a bull that was a def. 60 in August, because the point of the horns were still "lying" back. I might get him again 09, maybe not, that's hunting.

Nampom, in my limited experience (hunted and guided well over 100 bulls)I must respectfuly disagree. There might be the odd exception, BUT your Kudu's must eat rocks mate, for their teeth to worn out before those points turn up.

IMO the teeth will only be worn out if the bull is realy old, about 10+ years. I have yet, in South Africa, to see a old, teeth worn out bull, with tips of the horns lying back.

Interesting also is the Namibians coming out with other point of views. Vaughn and Nampom's posts refers. Might it be that Kudu in Namibia develops differently?

And now to REALY throw a stone in the pond! I have watched and photographed maybe 50 big Bulls in the Addo National park on two seperate occasions. I only saw 1 Bull with points flaring slightly out, and not one with points straight up. But this is the smaller Eastern Cape Kudu. I have seen some posts on this forum with big Kudu coming out of the EC, but don't recall one over 52"???

Good summation Charl.

And apart from a laugh here or there, I'd say it has been a great learning post for myself also..........

Look at this one
http://forums.accuratereloadin...=720105299#720105299

i dont think this one is immature

Sorry Rudi, its definately immature.