I thought so

I am not sure of the configuration of kudu horns. Two things come to mind that make a "trophy".

1. Effort expended on the hunt (not the shoot) and the appreciation of the animal.

2. If the PH says it is a mature kudu.

I hunt in the US infrequently now, but we here have gotten into aging whitetail deer based on body shape and horn shape. One deer is a trophy, another is a management buck another is a cull buck. When you work hard, appreciate the animal and take it cleanly, I think it qualifies as a trophy.

For example, in my taxidermist days, I had a customer (handicapped guy) show up with a freakish spike whitetail wanting a European mount on it. It was small and deformed. He related to me his efforts to get to the field to take this buck and he glowed like a 10 year old kid shooting his first rabbit. It was a trophy, much more so than those taken behind a high fence by out of shape unappreciative shooters out for bragging inches.

quote:

Originally posted by dogcat:
I am not sure of the configuration of kudu horns. Two things come to mind that make a "trophy".

1. Effort expended on the hunt (not the shoot) and the appreciation of the animal.

2. If the PH says it is a mature kudu.

I hunt in the US infrequently now, but we here have gotten into aging whitetail deer based on body shape and horn shape. One deer is a trophy, another is a management buck another is a cull buck. When you work hard, appreciate the animal and take it cleanly, I think it qualifies as a trophy.

For example, in my taxidermist days, I had a customer (handicapped guy) show up with a freakish spike whitetail wanting a European mount on it. It was small and deformed. He related to me his efforts to get to the field to take this buck and he glowed like a 10 year old kid shooting his first rabbit. It was a trophy, much more so than those taken behind a high fence by out of shape unappreciative shooters out for bragging inches.

Could not have said it any better, too many people are hung up on inches in more than one way.

quote:

Originally posted by infinito:
Nampom, in my limited experience (hunted and guided well over 100 bulls)I must respectfuly disagree. There might be the odd exception, BUT your Kudu's must eat rocks mate, for their teeth to worn out before those points turn up.

IMO the teeth will only be worn out if the bull is realy old, about 10+ years. I have yet, in South Africa, to see a old, teeth worn out bull, with tips of the horns lying back.

Interesting also is the Namibians coming out with other point of views. Vaughn and Nampom's posts refers. Might it be that Kudu in Namibia develops differently?

My hunt area is in the north west of Namibia very similar to Vaughan we are lucky and count our blessings if we get 250mm of rain, in the last 10 years, 5 of them were between 80-180mm this is rough on game, you can't expect any animal to develop to their maximum potential as they would with 1000mm of rain every season. So you can't in my option compare Kudu from SA with Botswana or Zim or Namibia as the vegetation and rain for example plays a major role with development of any animals.

I still stand with what I said in my previous post: You can't judge a Kudu bull for maturity just on tips pointing up and out there is other factors to keep in mind as said horn base (colour) etc.

This is a great thread started by Karl who I have the utmost respect for (he kills Leopard with his bare hands)
Karl next time I see you we'll have a couple of beers and compare notes

I want to also fully agree with dogcat and others "It is not about the inches it's about the Hunt" therefore I quote " The true hunter counts his achievement in proportion to the effort involved and the fairness of the sport" Saxton Pope.

quote:

Originally posted by 375 fanatic:
I thought so

That's Gerhard's bull.

He said it went 72"! Imagine that growing to full maturity........what an animal........

quote:

My hunt area is in the north west of Namibia very similar to Vaughan we are lucky and count our blessings if we get 250mm of rain, in the last 10 years, 5 of them were between 80-180mm this is rough on game, you can't expect any animal to develop to their maximum potential as they would with 1000mm of rain every season. So you can't in my option compare Kudu from SA with Botswana or Zim or Namibia as the vegetation and rain for example plays a major role with development of any animals.

Rodger, please bear in mind that most of my kudu hunting experience has been gained in Southern Namibia and the Khomas Hochland west of Windhoek, which is even drier. (But produces very good trophies.)
I think Frederik's suggestion as to time of year makes a big difference on how we perceive how over the hills a kudu bull is.
the following kudu (posted before)was shot in the Karas Mountains of Southern Namibia, and had totally worn front teeth, but was still in relatively good condition, and running with a group of cows. (Month of May, could still have been in the rut.)


This reminds me of when I was young, most of the farmers and hunters in Southern Namibia refered to wide horned kudu as "vlakte koedoe" (plains kudu), and narrow horned kudu as mountain kudu, whih of course is the same damn kudu. I agree, there a few exceptions and other variables. But as a whole, too many young bulls are being shot, period.

This thread has some very interesting points.

In what makes a mature trophy Kudu bull. Is it the pointed outward, number of curls, points, pointing straight up, etc. It seems to me you could have immature 60 inch bull in the Northern provinces of S. Africa and mature 50 inch bull of the Eastern Cape.
Does not genetics and location (food and weather) enter into the size of horns of a Kudu.

For example, certain area's of Canada and US are known for producing record book whitetail. For example the world record whitetail killed in Canada, known as the Hansen buck and killed in the 1990's. It was named after the person who killed it. It was only 3 1/2 years old according to the biologist who aged it. It had long spindley antlers. The previous world record buck the Jordan Buck was very mature buck, it was very heavy antler animal. It held the record since it was discovered in the 50's I believe. It was killed around 1914 I believe. Age could be only approximated on it because they did not have the teeth to age it. They could only guess at 6 1/2 years plus.

But, what I am getting at, would a PH pass up a record book animal because it was immature. I thinking not very many PH's would.

Everyone is probably right, most of the time the points should point outward to be mature bull, but that may not always hold true. As to worn teeth, that could be according to where the animal lives and what he feeds on. Some animals wear their teeth down a lot faster because of the type of feed and soil in the areas where they live. A place where there is lot of sand vs one with little or no sand in the soil will determine how fast the teeth wear down.

Just my thought's on the subject.

quote:

Everyone is probably right, most of the time the points should point outward to be mature bull, but that may not always hold true. As to worn teeth, that could be according to where the animal lives and what he feeds on. Some animals wear their teeth down a lot faster because of the type of feed and soil in the areas where they live. A place where there is lot of sand vs one with little or no sand in the soil will determine how fast the teeth wear down.

Just my thought's on the subject.

Brooks

Right on, Brooks.

Karl S,

That is a beauty of a kudu.

Good going guys - PHs know damn well what is a mature trophy if they want to - rest is up to us to listen and go along - keep it up guys

And so may it rest in peace.

First off, I have to state that I have a lot of respect for most of the PH's that commented here. I would also just like to thank all for their opinion, and remind all that I started this post/ debate to agrgue MATURITY of kudu bulls. I have hunted a lot of really young bulls for meat, and still do, I just now try and shoot bulls that I can identify as having "weak" horn genes. Yhis does not mean I do not enjoy the experience, or that I have not kept a lot of that horns. I wish I had space for every last animal I have shot on my wall. But a client shooting a trophy kudu is different in many aspects. First off, its much more expensive, kudu can rightfully be called one of the most expensive common plains game. Second, we have a responsibilty towards our clients to get them the best kudu reasonable for the area, and shooting bulls pointing back, does not acheive that.

I am curious of your thoughts on this one in particular...



Cheers
Canuck

Canuck, first bull very nice and old, second one can be either very old with worn horns (thick near points) or just matured, difficult to see details through vegetation, either way, it is a shooter.

Canuck,

To be a terrible bastard, I must ask what that first bull measured?

Hey guys I never said that anyone was wrong or right I merely added to Karl's option about the horns tipping up and out, yes its right. What Vaughan said is also right and everyone about genetics, soil, nutrients etc is also spot on.

My point was that there is no one rule of thumb determining the maturity of a Kudu bull (or any other animal) there is always an exception to the rule and instead of now feeling bad that you shot an immature bull (the trophy you once felt so proud of) because it does not have horns tipping up or out or the next time you are hunting in Africa, oh I can't shoot that bull because the horns don't tip up or out. Just remember there is an exception to every rule, just go out and enjoy the hunt as a whole, if you worked hard for that Kudu with the horns not exactly tipping in or out and the hunt was a blast, savour the experience and the memories and the trophy on the wall.

Karl I fully agree with you about the so-called "vlakte" and "berg" Kudu it is the same Kudu the same with this argument about Desert and normal Elephant its the same Elephant some are just more desert adapted. The reason why I mentioned about the rain, vegetation and terrain in the north west was just answering Infinito on why their teeth worn so much quicker.

I also agree that many Kudu bulls get shot that should have been left for another season or two.

To conclude the perfect Kudu:
Horns tipping up and out = 33%
Other factors (bases, genetics etc) = 33%
Experience of the hunt = 33%
Pulling the trigger = 1%
Equals a 100% trophy Kudu bull

On that note ..... Merry Christmas

Guys,

I have a couple of kudu photos from the place where I hunt....

What do you think,







Pitty this one broke his one horn but he is still a shooter to me....

The bull or bulls in the 2nd and 3rd pics look mature acccording to the criteria........

How long and how old, Gerhard?

quote:

Originally posted by Karl S:
Second, we have a responsibilty towards our clients to get them the best kudu reasonable for the area, and shooting bulls pointing back, does not acheive that.

Unless you don't have enough mature kudu to go around.....

A few years ago a SA PH stated on this forum that more than 2/3 of his clients took two kudu per hunt. If I remember right it added up to over 100 kudu hunted over just a few seasons. How many of them could have been fully mature?

I think the reason so many young kudu are killed in certain areas are that they are brought in on trucks a short time before the hunt. If you are hunting wild kudu, mature bulls represent a very small percentage of the total population.


Jason

quote:

Originally posted by Blair338/378:
The bull or bulls in the 2nd and 3rd pics look mature acccording to the criteria........

How long and how old, Gerhard?

Hey Blair,

I am not even going to guesstimate how old the kudu bulls are in pic 2 and 3

But I would judge them as close to 50 and for me they have the qualities what I want in a kudu trophy.

Wide horns with decent curls make for me the kudu one of the most majestic animals there is....

Especially photo no 3.

But that is just me....

quote:

Originally posted by Blair338/378:
Canuck,

To be a terrible bastard, I must ask what that first bull measured?

Sorry to take so long....have been enjoying the holiday season and have not spent much time on-line.

It was 54" and change. Lots of signs of being very old too. I was pretty tickled with it.

Cheers
Canuck

quote:

Originally posted by Canuck:

quote:

Originally posted by Blair338/378:
Canuck,

To be a terrible bastard, I must ask what that first bull measured?

Sorry to take so long....have been enjoying the holiday season and have not spent much time on-line.

It was 54" and change. Lots of signs of being very old too. I was pretty tickled with it.

Cheers
Canuck

He's a terrific bull Canuck.

quote:

Originally posted by Gerhard.Delport:

quote:

Originally posted by Blair338/378:
The bull or bulls in the 2nd and 3rd pics look mature acccording to the criteria........

How long and how old, Gerhard?

Hey Blair,

I am not even going to guesstimate how old the kudu bulls are in pic 2 and 3

But I would judge them as close to 50 and for me they have the qualities what I want in a kudu trophy.

Wide horns with decent curls make for me the kudu one of the most majestic animals there is....

Especially photo no 3.

But that is just me....

Gerhard,

# 3 is a beaut!

Cheers mate,

What about this one?¨



Measured 56,3/4"
Shot at Kwalata Wilderness in the Waterberg mountains

Very informativ topic indeed. Thanks..

And norwegianhunter: If I have read the topic correctly i think the anwswer will be that your kudu would have been better given another year or two..but I`m not shure

quote:

Originally posted by LHO:
Very informativ topic indeed. Tanks..

And norwegianhunter: If I have read the topic correctly i think the anwswer will be that your kudu would have been better given another year or two..but I`m not shure

Yes if so, it could be around 60" and a outwardpointing tips.

Wonderful thread, Karl. I certainly learned a lot about kudu I didn't know before. Oh, to be hunting them again with Johann Veldsmann.