In the RW Sportsman's Handbook the world record for Southern Greater Kudu is listed as being picked up in Moz in 1963. The measurement is 73 7/8"
Does anyone have a pic of this kudu or for that matter any kudu over 70"? I would like to see what a monster like this looks like.

Blacktailer

Roger Whittall has some really old copies of SCI record books. I shall browse throught hem when I get a chance and look for this kudu

Dave

An early SCI record book lists a southern greater kudu acquired near Mozambique's Save River in 1963 by Dr.Carlo Caldesi of Italy as No. 1 in its "picked up" category. The left horn was 71-5/8 inches long; the right horn was 74 1/8 inches long.

Photos of animals in "picked up" categories were not published, but are required for entry, so somewhere in the club's files is a photo of that head.

Don't know if the same animal is listed in the Rowland Ward record book.

Bill Quimby

Believe it or not, there is a life sized mount of a kudu at the Sportsmans Warehouse in Grand Junction, Colorado. The accompanying sign says it number 1 or 2 SCI. It is absolutely huge. I will get a pic next time I go there and post it.

There is a photo of those horns in Craig Boddington and Peter Flack's African Hunter 2 in the Mozambique chapter.

"Belive it or not, there is a life sized mount of a kudu at Sportsman's Warehouse in Grand Junction, Colorado. The accompanying sign says it is number 1 or 2 SCI."


SCI lists picked-up horns separately from its records of trophies taken by members. The No. 1 or No. 2 SCI record kudu could be (and probably is) smaller than the horns Caldesi acquired.

Bill Quimby

The new edition of the SCI World Records of African Animals will be available at the Reno show in late January.

So how big do you think is this Kudu?

Nice kudu...... looking at the photos I would say the owner needs to contact a good roofer.

I'll take a wild butt guess and say 61", as the depth of the curls is very sweet.

I really don't know as photos are so misleading at times.

The tips are pointing in, he should have been left for a year or so.

quote:

Originally posted by DC Roxby:
Believe it or not, there is a life sized mount of a kudu at the Sportsmans Warehouse in Grand Junction, Colorado. The accompanying sign says it number 1 or 2 SCI. It is absolutely huge. I will get a pic next time I go there and post it.

Don,

Please post up a pic of that kudu; love to see that bull

Come on guys...

Look at this Kudu...

This is a 72 inch Kudu....

quote:

Originally posted by Blacktailer:
In the RW Sportsman's Handbook the world record for Southern Greater Kudu is listed as being picked up in Moz in 1963. The measurement is 73 7/8"
Does anyone have a pic of this kudu or for that matter any kudu over 70"? I would like to see what a monster like this looks like.

LENGTH OF LONGEST HORN: 73 7/8
CIRCUMFERENCE AT BASE: 10 inches
TIP TO TIP SPREAD: 27 7/8

quote:

Originally posted by stevie:
There is a photo of those horns in Craig Boddington and Peter Flack's African Hunter 2 in the Mozambique chapter.

Thanks I forgot they were in there. That pic does not seem to make them look all that big but in Mouse's post above you can see what a great animal this was. His tips not only come forward on the last curl but actually flare out considerably. What a monster!

quote:

Originally posted by Gerhard.Delport:
Come on guys...

Look at this Kudu...

This is a 72 inch Kudu....

Gerhard,

I was going to say mid 60's

What a magnificent animal.......

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Gerhard.Delport:
So how big do you think is this Kudu?



[/QU

the tips is still pointing in you should have left it for another year

excellent trophy mate ill shoot it any day where was it shot and by who?

That is what the other thread was all about Rudi, EDUCATING hunters NOT to shoot bulls like this. Sorry, not stirring, but I feel strongly about it. This bull, although HUGE, was NOT finished growing, and might have gone on to reach the magical 70" mark. The above old picture of the record refers. They have the same type of horns.

I left one a bit smaller, but the same shape of horns earlier this year. He is already pushing 60", maybe we get him next year, maybe we do'nt, but thats hunting.

So BTW....we are doing the same with our Impala....

Then we wonder why we shoot so few 60" Kudu and 25"+ Impala? Because we do not give them a chance to reach maturity?

Charl

So I must tell my client to shoot a much smaller, but mature 54" kudu - and not this immature 72" brute. I think he'll shoot me!! And the argument about "mature" will just not wash ... irrespective of how true or hou valid it is. That's reality!

It's a pitty then Johan if that is the way reality is going to be. Each to his own my friend, but with my outfit, it will not work this way, I'll stick to my guns. Sorry for those guys that are inches mad. If this is a 72" IMMATURE kudu, it will call for a situation I do not want to be in, ever.

To keep it in the spirit of the other thread. You will let your client then shoot a soft bossed Buffalo bull with a 44" spread, instead of the 38" Dugga boy?

Gerhard, Why is this the first we have heard about this Kudu? Where was it shot, and by whom? As far as I know the biggest hunted Kudu was one shot by a boy in the Lydenburg area, and it taped out at 69 and a bit inches. I have seen photo's of this VERY old bull. Also, if it were shot, why was it never recorded? One do not need to be a member of a hunting club, as with fishing, to record such trophies.

Is this not one of those fibreglass jobs? I have seen my fair share of them two.

Kudu hunting is not shopping for baked beans you only see an animal like this once in your life if you dont take it you will not get that opportunity again unless you are in a canned hunt or put and take operation and even then they can jump fences aswell

i understand the argument with bulls ranging from 49- 55" but not in this case any ph that tells me not to shoot this brute we will get a better one talks absolute shit

how many Kuds over 70" is there in the record books? not many

he must have bred for at least 4-5 seasons so the genes was passed on

that is only my 5000000 zim dollar point of view

I've enjoyed sitting back and watching this thread develop. It's been a lotta fun. but I'll restrict myself to making just a few points.

Firstly, not all hunters choose to enter their trophies in the record books. It's a bit of a shame from the PHs point of view, but nevertheless, it is the case. I had a client take a number 3 or 4 (RW) EA eland a few years ago, but he just wasn't interested in the book, so chose not to enter it.

Secondly, isn't it a shame that the level of ethics that's being discussed here, isn't applied/displayed by more hunters to the more important/key species such as Lion and Elephant.

Last but not least, kudu like any other animal continue horn growth until they die and I wonder what exactly defines maturity? Is it a set period after they reach breeding age and have passed their genes on to the next generation? is it a set period before they die of old age? or is it something in between? etc etc etc.

To me, any kudu that has reached 70 odd inches has most certainly had plenty of time to pass on his genes to the next generation and probably the generation after that, so would I turn down a 70 odd inch kudu.......... would I hell.

One must also perhaps question the ethics of hunting for the tape measure alone. An example of this, is a client I once saw shoot an animal that went down at the shot and although out of the game was still alive. While the animal was busy dying, he was actually measuring the horns and expressing his disappointment that it was half an inch out of the top 10 and bleating he didn't want the trophy for that reason.

Personally, I know which I consider the most ethical.

quote:

Last but not least, kudu like any other animal continue horn growth until they die and I wonder what exactly defines maturity?

According to the book Game ranch management by J du P. Bothma (Editor) Kudu bulls are only sexually mature in months at 60 months that is 5 years. Then it takes a kudu 30 months before the second outward twist is completed and a further 3.5 years to complete the the final other 1 1/2 twist in its horn. So that means 6 years to finish the horn growth. The book also mentions a kudu bull with 2.5 twist to its horn his a prime, but rare trophy. And then life expectancy is around 12 years in nature.

Then obviously the horns are getting used and become blunt when they reach 6 years and up. So I would say that we should look at kudu like with lion and set a age of 6 years and plus. And 6 years only gives him 2 or 3 (if he's good looking and lucky enough), seasons to spread those genes.

A perfect example of worn horns is with eland when those tips are blunt and shiny from use you know you have a good old man in your sigths no matter what length of the horns.

Perhaps we should apply the black nose theory as well.

quote:

Originally posted by infinito:
It's a pitty then Johan if that is the way reality is going to be. Each to his own my friend, but with my outfit, it will not work this way, I'll stick to my guns.

I hope you're a great communicator and can CONVINCE the client that the exceptional animal in front of him is immature. Otherwise, a skeptic might believe that you were saving the big animal for someone else.

quote:

Originally posted by dla69:

quote:

Originally posted by infinito:
It's a pitty then Johan if that is the way reality is going to be. Each to his own my friend, but with my outfit, it will not work this way, I'll stick to my guns.

I hope you're a great communicator and can CONVINCE the client that the exceptional animal in front of him is immature. Otherwise, a skeptic might believe that you were saving the big animal for someone else.

only if you book next year again

quote:

Originally posted by 375 fanatic:
i understand the argument with bulls ranging from 49-55" but not in this case any ph that tells me not to shoot this brute we will get a better one talks absolute shit

Rudi - Exactly! And Charl, whereas kudu are basically evaluated by horn length alone, buffalo are not judged on spread alone, but on a few charateristics - which includes the character, the boss, the curl and also spread. So it would be easy to eliminate the young bull with good spread and soft bosses - it will make a shitty trophy. It is also easy to see that it is a young animal. Would hunters rave about an old kudu bull with half-broken horns like they do about an old battle-axe dagga bull with 32" spread and broken horns ? Unlikely. It is not really comparable.

Would I turn down that kudu - not on your life!

And as Shakari mentioned - one can start to extend the argument further to other animals ... for example, would warthog and leopard be fair examples?

Collecting a record trophy on a safari should be a bonus, not an objective.

Johan,

I must agree with you, like Steve I have been watching this thread with interest,

Firstly, the kudu bull in Lydenburg, that boy is my cousin, and that was an old old bull, but not 69, just under it.

Climbing on a Holy Horse about age,well if that rocks your boat go for it,

I do agree that there is a helluva lot of young kudu getting taken, but a lot of that is due too outfitters cahsing the mighty dollar, have too shoot as many as possible in as short time as possible,

Young PH'S get ordered too shoot what is broadside and that is it.

How many time have I listened too Tom, Dick or Harry bragging about 15 animals in 7 days, what do you expect will be the outcome of that WALLMART mentality of instant gratification,

I have had clients go back and not have their kudu, why , cause I would not have felt good about the ones we saw, going on a wall.

In big wilderness areas, I tend too be less picky, on ranch hunting in SA , I know what size is achievable on my concessions, and I will pass up till I find the one I am looking for,

quote:

How many time have I listened too Tom, Dick or Harry bragging about 15 animals in 7 days, what do you expect will be the outcome of that WALLMART mentality of instant gratification,

I have had clients go back and not have their kudu, why , cause I would not have felt good about the ones we saw, going on a wall.

quote:

In big wilderness areas, I tend too be less picky, on ranch hunting in SA , I know what size is achievable on my concessions, and I will pass up till I find the one I am looking for,

Well said +1

quote:

Originally posted by Gerhard.Delport:
So how big do you think is this Kudu?

The NECK on that thing...looks like a clydesdale with horns...do they bite...??

Just to add another perspective...First I consider any animal I shoot a "good" trophy. In reality I dont care about the record book but do get excited if I know something scores well. It is only a relative indicator of the trophy size and not of the hunt itself. I would much rather shoot a smaller animal that I worked hard for than something I just stepped of the baakie and shot. That said I want mature animals not juveniles. Would I shoot an "immature" kudu at 70 inches? Damn straight. I guess my main point is size is not necesarily the only indicator of a trophy.

quote:

And Charl, whereas kudu are basically evaluated by horn length alone, buffalo are not judged on spread alone, but on a few charateristics - which includes the character, the boss, the curl and also spread. So it would be easy to eliminate the young bull with good spread and soft bosses - it will make a shitty trophy.

This is exactly the mentality I was trying to change with my other post. Sorry if I step on toes, but the (supposedly) 70 inch kudu in the picture is a shitty trophy. At least as shitty as a soft bossed buffalo. I would also like an official of Rowland Ward or any other body to measure that bull, as I might be off, but it sure as hell does not look like 70 inches.

Karl

If you have a look at the many, many kudu horns in the taxidermy shops - I am sure a hell of a lot of hunters wont agree with you that it is a shitty trophy!

So here we go again.......At least it's the same old faces in the ring hey. Makes one wonder..... I usually leave a thread when certain people turn up and speak their wisdom, as to argue with them does not prove a point or settle one.

I will offer an apology on my posting. This "72" Kudu Bull is not IMMATURE. He is a mature bull, but still had a lot of years in him. (if it is not a fibreglass job)

Maybe I was not clear enough in what I said, and further explanation is now needed. What I wanted to bring over more clearly, was that I wish I never end up in a situation like that. I said this simply BECAUSE it is a 70" Kudu, and I would have to shoot it. To do otherwise would be stupid and the client would never understand.I did however explain to a client at great lenghts why we passed on a to young 60" bull earlier this season. DLA69, your post refers.

Rudi, no PH will ever pass on this Bull, not even me, that's why I hope to never be in that situation, as I said. Please do not insinuate that I'm talking "shit" as you put it. How many Kudu in the record books above 70"? Just one I believe (featured further up in this circus), so please do not make the assumption that there are a lot more of them, and that hunters can expect the chance to bump one. Next time you call me to ask about big trophy Kudu hunting with Infinito, I will bring that one up. If you want to play PH and take jabs with smiley faces at other peoples outfits, then go and be a PH. Maybe you will understand one day when you work day in and day out in the mountains, hunting these animals FOR A LIVING.

Johan, young animals are young, Kudu length of horn, Buff bulls bosses and spread. I'm not going to argue with you, but too many PH shoot young Kudu Bulls period. That's why KarlS posted the original thread about shooting young bulls(where this discussion belongs). My remark that it's a pity, was aimed at your remark that: “an animal is "mature" or not will not wash”.

Walter, there is another thread on this topic, specific relating to this subject. My views on what to shoot and not to shoot have been explained at great lengths over there, and should be seen in context with the circus. Simply put, I’m not going to waste my time in going through it all again. I agree with you 100%. I believe the Lydenburg bull is nr.1 on RW ?

I do not say the guy had to enter that Kudu, BUT Steve and company, we surely had to HEAR somewhere in the hunting magazines of a Kudu bull shot over 70" don't you think. Gerhard? This will make it the number 1, recorded or not. The chance of that happening, and guys like Gregor Woods or Koos Barnard from Magnum not picking it up, what's the odds?

I have seen fibreglass jobs, looking just like this a couple of times. If I am wrong, I would like the details of who shot it, where and when, and would like to do an article on it for one of the publications we write for, if the hunter agrees of course.
So the REAL Pro's have joined, and I will make my way out of here, so that their wisdom educates everyone on shooting Kudu bulls. It seems to me they think that if it is long enough it is good enough to shoot. But of course, they do not think about the future of the genes in that area. They visit ranches and areas, shoot the animals and leave. Is that not so? The trophy fee is asked, and paid, and the profit made, so maybe Johan, you are right, it’s about money, and therefore it will never “wash”.

I do wish you all a merry Christmas and festive time. The weather in the Cape is bad, and I understand from the e-mails from my friends in the States (that will be returning next year) that there is a lot of snow and bad weather!

quote:

Originally posted by infinito:

Rudi, no PH will ever pass on this Bull, not even me, that's why I hope to never be in that situation, as I said. Please do not insinuate that I'm talking "shit" as you put it. How many Kudu in the record books above 70"? Just one I believe (featured further up in this circus), so please do not make the assumption that there are a lot more of them, and that hunters can expect the chance to bump one. Next time you call me to ask about big trophy Kudu hunting with Infinito, I will bring that one up. If you want to play PH and take jabs with smiley faces at other peoples outfits, then go and be a PH. Maybe you will understand one day when you work day in and day out in the mountains, hunting these animals FOR A LIVING.

!

Taking a jab at other outfitter is not the case or my style. unfortunately we all have a right to our own opinion and the right to express it. like many topics like calibre or ethics if that was not the case there would not be room for a great forum like this and i feel that when you take part in a forum like this you will be able to listen and respect every ones opinion.

It is nothing personal even a man and his wife has diferent opinions about a lot of things they might work thrue it or the might get divorced about it its their choice and they have to live with it.

so if you feel offended about my post i apologise it was not the intention my point is that nothing is cast in stone and i supported by a lot of post in this forum. its all the ideas in this world that makes it develop if that was not the case we would still believe the earth is flat

i do not make any assumptions that there is plenty of 70" that is why i say that anybody that says you must pass a bull like that is talking shit its like Haleys comet it happens in a few hundred years

have a great christmas

If I remember correctly, the kudu in question or one of a similar size was reported in Man Magnum some time ago, but not all trophies get into the press or the record books etc. The Natural History Museum in Liondon for example has warehouses chokka block full of trophies that would shatter the record books if they ever chose to enter them, but their attitude is that there's no scientific value in having them measured, so they don't. The reason I know this is that some years ago I was given a tour of their storage areas that lasted two full days and I had my eyes sticking out my head for pretty much all of it. I even tried to persuade them to let me measure some of the biggest trophies but was turned down for the stated reason.

I'll add that whilst I find a lot of this debate about the ethics of trophy assessment very laudable, I reckon some of the contributors need to take a look at their own websites, because some of the claims made here, don't to me always fit in with the images depicted on the aforementioned sites. - I'm not suggesting there's anything wrong with the trophies shown, but some of 'em don't quite fit in with the stated opinions.

To me, a good trophy is one that is a good representative of the species, is not immature and is the product of a good, challenging hunt. If it's long enough to get into the books, then it's a bonus and nothing more.

quote:

To me, a good trophy is one that is a good representative of the species, is not immature and is the product of a good, challenging hunt. If it's long enough to get into the books, then it's a bonus and nothing more.

+1

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:
If I remember correctly, the kudu in question or one of a similar size was reported in Man Magnum some time ago, but not all trophies get into the press or the record books etc. The Natural History Museum in Liondon for example has warehouses chokka block full of trophies that would shatter the record books if they ever chose to enter them, but their attitude is that there's no scientific value in having them measured, so they don't. The reason I know this is that some years ago I was given a tour of their storage areas that lasted two full days and I had my eyes sticking out my head for pretty much all of it. I even tried to persuade them to let me measure some of the biggest trophies but was turned down for the stated reason.

I'll add that whilst I find a lot of this debate about the ethics of trophy assessment very laudable, I reckon some of the contributors need to take a look at their own websites, because some of the claims made here, don't to me always fit in with the images depicted on the aforementioned sites. - I'm not suggesting there's anything wrong with the trophies shown, but some of 'em don't quite fit in with the stated opinions.

To me, a good trophy is one that is a good representative of the species, is not immature and is the product of a good, challenging hunt. If it's long enough to get into the books, then it's a bonus and nothing more.

+2

Steve, we agree on some things after all. Me, and KarlS have said that we have, to our own regret shot Kudu bulls not mature enough, and that it should not happen again, so I know about those bulls on our site. The other thread refers.

Ja Rudi, your entitled to your opinion, but don't expect to hear nothing from me if you gonna take a jab, and you did. Apology excepted Sir. Look at the bright side....we still won the cricket!

Enjoy X-mas.

quote:

Originally posted by infinito:
Steve, we agree on some things after all. Me, and KarlS have said that we have, to our own regret shot Kudu bulls not mature enough, and that it should not happen again.

It's gonna happen again whether you like it or not......... these things just happen from time to time, and there's nothing you, me or anyone else can do about it.

I had two different clients shoot the wrong Buffalo last year. One couldn't tell his left from his right and the other missed the animal he was aiming at completely and hit another one that was fully 4 yards ahead of the one he was meant to shoot, slap in the ear and dropped it like a sack of shit.

Like I say, these things happen whether we like it or not!

I'd still whack that 70 odd incher in a heartbeat though!