I have a few questions
1. what is the definition of mature
2. at what age does a Kudu start to breed
3. what is the bull to cow ratio of calves born
4. is the quality of the calves determined by the current lenth of the bulls horns or by his genes or his sons genes
5. at wat age is humans mature
6. how long is a piece of string

quote:

Originally posted by Vaughan Fulton:
Dear Fellow Members,

I agree that a number of immature Kudu are harvested as trophy's each year in fact a number of species could be added to the list. I do however respectfully disagree with some of the statements/claims made above. In particular the use of tips to age an animal.

Over the years, I have seen and had hunters bring Kudu bulls into various camps with tips that did not always point out or straight up, though were without a doubt, old bulls. The bases were hard and solid, tips "broomed" down and even in some cases the sides of the horns where they like to rub in the dirt and trees were worn through to the inner membrane.
Even if Kudu are not old but mature and in their prime, I am still of the opinion that they will not necessarily grow into shapes where the tips point out or even straight up.

IMO it is more about the individuals genetics. There are Kudu bulls that go through 3 turns, I saw one set at a taxidermist in Otiwarongo that went through 4 turns on one horn and the other horn was of average shape. I was actually there to see another set of Kudu Horns that I had been told about by Steve Tors (Namibian ph for over 20 years). This set of Kudu horns measured 68" and did not go through the classic 2 1/2 turns. That Kudu was old and would not have got any longer. For interest sake I was told that this Kudu was shot by a farmer for meat and just by chance a guy who buys up skins and horns for furniture etc. bought them up when buying at this farmers place.
The longest measuring Kudu that one of my hunters took, did not have tips going straight up or pointing out but was in fact similar in shape to the 4th from top of the photos above. A fellow AR member on this board was a good friend of that hunter and can attest to the shape and age.
The Namibian record is has a non-typical shape, look at the SCI record book, a number of those have tips pointing towards each other. I guess what I am trying to say is that IMO there is no hard and fast rule as far as aging a Kudu using the shape or direction that the tips point is concerned.

Not all "old" Kudu bulls go through the turns with tips pointing up or out, like not all "old" Springbok have tips that hook backwards or "old" Hartebeest that have tips flaring outwards or "old" Buffalo with horns dropping down and tips pointing back or no tips at all, etc.

I think it is fair to say that one can look at the tips of a Kudu bull as one of the indicators or references but do not make it the deciding factor of whether the Kudu Bull is old or not.
After sexing an animal, I normally look at the horn bases of almost all the antelope species first before moving to lengths, shapes etc. IMO, it is advisable to use a combination of things to look for when deciding on the animals age and "shootability", horn bases(colour not thickness), general shape and coloration of horns, "tips", as well as general appearance of the body such as coloration, body and coat condition (Things like bones showing, lack of hair, etc.), etc.

Also remember when you're hunting and a Kudu bull suddenly steps out or you pick each other out at almost the same time and a decision has to be made quick before he bolts or the opportunity for a shot is lost,.........
Also we should remember that one cannot take away the experience of a hunt because the measurements were not up to scratch or the age was questionable as the animal has been killed and you cannot bring it back to life. A friend once said to me the best trophy is the one on your wall...I think all true hunters try to do the right thing but things happen.......

Vaughn,

Thank you for sharing these details and I feel much better about my past hunt! It does give me a much broader perspective!

All three of our bulls were estimated at 10 years old according to our records!

This is a very interesting topic indeed! First of all I have to admit that I am the hunter with the immature Kudu on Karls picture #4 . If you read the story behind it, you will also find that to be true. Since I also look at Karl as my friend, I have made some conclusions... To learn from his "mistakes" I will be best if Karl give me a Kudu hunt for free! Then we both can do the right thing and shoot a mature Kudu As for the embarrassment of telling everyone one AR about me leaving my bolt back at the lodge, I will take.... another Kudu

Back to the more serious part of the topic. For me this is not really about Kudu, this is about ALL trophy hunting. For me trophy hunting is about the experience of hunting. The trophy is an important part of that as the "symbol" of that experience. The size of the trophy might or might not reflect that experience. As in my story with the Kudu, this Kudu was not the worlds biggest trophy, measured in inches. But it was the "symbol" that will have me remember the Kudu I lost, and the 10 days of hunting before I got my second chance. Small trophy, big (or important) experience!

BUT, and there is a BIG but in this. Trophy hunting, no matter what game, I think should be conducted with the greatest ethics and respect for the animals hunted. That means among other things, that we should TRY to take animals which are mature. As a client you are depending on your PH do make his best judgment. Actually not his best judgment, but you have to be able to trust him/her to be both competent and ethical enough to make the right judgment. Again referring to my story, both me and Karl should have made that Kudu slip away. It did give me a great memory I will remember, but I would probably have had an ever better memory of it all if I had left it and shot a mature Kudu on a later hunt! Actually me and Karl had a great stalk on a immature (but very nice) Eland on the same hunt. We left it on 30 yards. Not a trophy on the wall, but actually my best hunting experience from that hunt!

Vaughn, I cannot disagree more....I do not know about Namibia, but in my part of the world, waht has been said by myself and KarlS rings true. I'm not one of those PH's that decided after school I want to be in the bush....I was raised from infancy in the bush by a PH dad, and Kudu bulls is a pet peassion for all of us...

KarlS made a veyr good point....why all the fuss about soft Buff bulls....(well founded fuss I might add) but WHAT about Kudu bulls? We do shoot to much immature bulls in the industry as a whole....and no matter what anyone says....the way the points of the horns go are the only way to judge their quality and age, and always will be....

Sure there might be exeptions to what we say, but anyone knowing these animals inside out will know what we talk about.....A Kudu Bull with points lying back is NOT OLD.....

The onyl way I will ever believe you is if you show me a picture of the worn teeth and the pointing back points of the horns in one....

Any case, we can argue about it for weeks to come...I stand by my point....and fall by it...I ( and I take it KarlS) do not have to prove to anyone that we are right or wrong....we know, and it is just the way it is....I'm very glad he brought this up...and although we might not agree always...the basics stays the same....

Charl,

What say you regarding this bull which you posted on this thread?

http://forums.accuratereloadin...=907101209#907101209

Is this an immature bull in your opinion? Given a second chance, would you have passed it up?

Dave

quote:

Originally posted by 375 fanatic:
I have a few questions
1. what is the definition of mature
2. at what age does a Kudu start to breed
3. what is the bull to cow ratio of calves born
4. is the quality of the calves determined by the current lenth of the bulls horns or by his genes or his sons genes
5. at wat age is humans mature
6. how long is a piece of string

Rudi,

I will not even attempt reply to any one of your questions. But about No.4 I can sure cause a lot more confusion in some minds. Do a GOOGLE search on the word "epigenetics" and read a bit to make you think even harder about your question No. 4!

In good hunting.

Andrew McLaren

Andrew,

As a race horse breeder in my earlier life I would say the answer to Rudi's point #4 would be be the genes are already embedded in the DNA sequence of the bull.....but you would have to also consider whether the cow he mates with was sired by a bull with larger than normal horns.

Perhaps we should not be shooting cows with that quality of inheritance?

The other major factor is dietary, I would imagine. What is the quality and ratio of minerals and protein available to the animal.

#3 "Bull to cow" ratio in racehorses is strictly managed because of economic and timing factors, though we had one stallion who was incredibly fertile and could cover 90 mares in a breeding season with 90% pregnancy rate compared to the average 42 for a normal stallion. And his ratio of winners sired was VERY high.

And it is well known fact with racehoses, that a stallion or mare's ability to pass on race winning genes lessens as he/she ages, though there are exceptions, Secretariat's dam was 18 when she foaled him.

It would seem to me as a client, that if an outfitter wanted truly huge kudu on a regular basis, it would have to be done by a strict breeding program behind wire in a situation similar to the whitetail farms of the USA. All undesirable animals being culled rigorously and the prime bulls not shot until almost dead or incapable of breeding(depending on the quality of their offspring of course)


Or a situation where the landowner limits to an almost uneconomic degree the number of big bulls shot. Either course would be very expensive.

And the end result for the consumer would be trophy fees to cover the costs that would be astronomically higher....as in America on their whitetail and elk farms

I don't know of any such operations in the RSA or Nam?

Vaugnn, I respektfully disagree. here's why:
I my humble opinion, there is only 2 instances that will make a kudu's horns NOT turn up or out in the later stage of his life:
1) Inbreeding, which is normally not a problem in Namibia.
2) Some external factor, like an injury to the horn in the early stages of the bull's lifetime.
You refer to the current Namibian record, well, I hope I do not step on too amny toes, but that is one ugly kudu, I would not want it on my wall.
As to your example of springbok horns not alwys turning back, that is true, as it is true that not all kudu will turn out again. In fact, springbok, which are easier to contain by fences, often goes through a genetic bottle neck and the result is a farm with over 1000 springbok, but very few mature rams with horns not laying forward. Anyway, just my opinion, see you Friday, then I will buy you a beer, and we can discuss more if you want.

Litespeed, I like the "compensation" you claim for leaving your bolt at camp! We will see about that... as you mentioned, we should strive to hunt more mature trohpies, always, not just buffalo. I used you as an example of the type of pressure that might make us loose sight of the above objective. Also, to those that has critizes the fact that he/ she is paying for the hunt, and ar enot about to leave a kudu of 56 inches because its immature, please note, that I woud have neglected my job if I have not told you after such a stalk that I think you can do better, or that it is your choice, but it is not fully mature. To shoot a bull that is point back though, as a trophy, is just plain wrong.

quote:

Originally posted by David Hulme:
Charl,

What say you regarding this bull which you posted on this thread?

http://forums.accuratereloadin...=907101209#907101209

Is this an immature bull in your opinion? Given a second chance, would you have passed it up?

Dave

David,

With all respect, if you take the time to sift through my posts on this in the beginning you will see what I said about traumatic events that happen in the life of the animal that can affect horn growth, in our experience......BUT we do not have scientific proof of it. We just get some bulls that have these strange horns and they all look to be the same age group.....

The one you are refering to was about 8 years old (you would have seen it if you read further down), and simply put a FREAK of a specimen.

Please note that the left horn of the bull is pointing up.....You and me know that we do not have to look twice at a grey old bull before we decide to shoot him. If his left horn looked like the right one I would have passed up on him.

So in conclussion, do I regret shooting one of the top Kudu bulls out of Southern Africa this year. No. KarlS who started this thread do not like this bull, but not because of it's age, because of the shape of the horns. I on the other hand love it because it looks so odd, and I like the odd ones.

It looks as if will get another one in 2009, who knows....I'll just count his teeth before we shoot him....

I wish you guys a good 2009 season!

Cheers

I just want to add that we might want to look at the def. of "immature" and "old".....Immature in my eyes are those bulls from 1 year old to about 4 years old when they start breeding. Then we get mature bulls that are not old enough to shoot....the ones refered to in this thread....same as when we refer to humans as being a child, a teenager, a adolescent and an adult....or something like that... But that's my opinion only.....I know some of my friends here might disagree......but I would like to hear what you say....

In the end this is not a pissing match about who is right or wrong, we are discussing something important, and I am always open to learn more, so I think we should keep this in that spirit...?

quote:

Sure there might be exeptions to what we say, but anyone knowing these animals inside out will know what we talk about.....A Kudu Bull with points lying back is NOT OLD.....

I did not mention anything about horn tips laying back in my post. However since you brought it up I would agree that there is a good chance that it is still young/immature but have seen exceptions to your rule.

Hello to all the kudu fanatics aout there,

The classification of kudu bulls into age groups as immature, sexually mature, successful breeding and past breeding age is not going to be easy. By all means shoot me down, but here’s my first attempt:

Immature or infertile: Younger than 18 months
Sexually fertile but to young to breed successfully in nature: 18 to 60 months
Breeding age [in nature]: 5 years to 8 years
Prime breeding age: 6 to 7 years
Past breeding age in nature: 10 years plus?
Very old and frail: Older than 12 years?

Can one age a kudu by it's horn shape?

Prof J du P Bothma in his highly regarded book on game farm management included the next figure [in the older Afrikaans version] in the section that dals with the aging of game animals: Note: Afrikaans "maande" = English "months" and Afr. "Middeljarig tot oud" = Eng. "Middle aged to old" and naturally Afr. "Oud" = Eng. "Old".



Now this really means, that without giving any indication of how many years is "old" Bothma, is in basic agreement with Vaughan in that a kudu with horn tips not pointing out can be called "old". I have to agree with this: What few people not involved with game farm management know is that many, or even most, kudu bulls on game farms die by about 8 years of age. This is due to the stress of the rut after which they simply do not have the spare body fat reserves to survive unseasonable cold, and particularly cold and wet, spells and drought. A number of them may also have been injured in rutting fights with other bulls. Kudu cows live much longer, up to about 15 years or more, and even very old cows still have calves. A similar age structure of many breeding age cows for each breeding age bull have been reported for kudu in the Kruger National Park. IIRC the figures are something like 10 or even more (? Don’t remember the exact figure now. Old age!) breeding age cows for each breeding age bull. [Now is the time to answer Rudi’s No. 3 question: 50:50, and it remains so until the calves are about sexually capable.]

Incidentally, it is not the demands of mating with 10 or more cows that deplete the bulls’ reserves, it is the fighting, both physical and by posturing and behaviour, guarding, not having enough time to browse, etc. between the bulls that is so energy tapping. So, if most kudu bulls die by 8 years, surely the cut-off point to call them "old" must be something like 7 years? I assume what Vaughan means when he refers to bulls with horn tips pointing inwards as “old” are the kudu bulls so often found, in late winter early spring, in an emancipated condition, and quite obviously near death, particularly during droughts. While on the same farm or in the same area the young 3 to 4 or 5 year old pre functionally sexually mature kudu bulls will still be in reasonable shape?

However kudu bulls that actually survive, due to luck of a few good rain years and or lack of any severe unseasonable wet cold spells, to beyond about 8 years, must then be considered as the "old" ones. I have quite some doubt if kudu bulls at 9 or 10 years and older will have any breeding success in an area where there are enough 6 to 8 year old bulls. These "prime breeding age bulls" of 6 to 8 years will simply overpower the much older ones at the rut. IMHO it is only these few, 5% or so of the total population of kudu, that can be equated to "fully hard-bossed buffalo bulls" And in them, as Bothma indicates, the horn tips point outwards! These "beyond normal successful breeding age" bulls are the "real" trophies. I have heard it said by an old farmer that once a kudu bull gets his mind off sex he just about lives forever! This reminds at least a bit of old elephant bulls who go off with one or more askaris? I don’t say it is so, but it does seem likely, and my own experience seems to support Oom Willems’ theory. I have personally know and hunted one particular old bull many times. He had a characteristic small “toe and big toe” on the left front foot. I first saw him in 1986 during an impala only hunt with a Japanese client. Be sure that I immediately wanted him as my personal trophy kudu. I hunted him many times without success. Very early on New Year’s morning in 1992, when I eventually outsmarted him, I did not shoot him from about 50 yards. Why not? That’s another story. But he was old with horn tips pointing decidedly outwards in 1986. When I saw him from close up in 1992 his horns were what a kudu horns should look like. Why do I now think of Ann’s from Aspen Hills’ kudu? When he eventually saw me, actually one of his askaris saw me, he was so old that he could really not run any more, let alone jump over bushes! He seemed to shuffle along like an old man with a walking frame. Hell, I miss my late old dad now!

In my book a kudu bull with horn tips pointing fully outwards is, without any reference to the actual length of the full horn, a real trophy. If, then in addition the horn tips are also show some “ivory” and are blunt from wear during fighting and sparring, well man then you have a hellofa trophy! And if besides all this the horns are nice and long with deep curls,,,,, Wow! And to span everything if the horns also flare out widely,,,,,, Oh mamma! Maybe I should have pulled the trigger the 1st January 2992, and spoiled a long friendship. Funny how regrets always come to late!

In good hunting.

Andrew McLaren

Having only shot one kudu I am certainly in no position to add much to this argument, but here goes. It occurred to me that there may be a basic issue here that has not been mentioned. The deeper a kudu's curl, the longer it takes for the horn tips to rotate to the outside.

Take a piece of wire and form it into the shape of a kudu's horns and you can confirm this for yourself. It is quite easy to achieve very different tip locations by simply adjusting the width of the coil.

This being true it seems to me that genetics, as well as age has a big role in determining the direction the tips will be pointing at any given point in a bull's life. A bull with very deep curls will need to grow more horn length to achieve the same tip direction as a bull with narrow curls. Another variable is the angle at which the horn grows, some kudu being more "stretched out" than others. If we assume that all bulls in a given area grow horn at about the same rate over time, then it would seem overall horn length would be a better predictor of age (for a specific area) than the angle of direction of tips.

These are both 53" kudu, I borrowed the top pic and the bottom one is mine taken with Vaughan Fulton.

My question is this; why could these bulls not both be the same age?





On a side note I have the teeth from my kudu and I am going to see if I can find some place that can age my kudu using the growth ring method. His teeth are quite worn, but not worn out by any means.

A 52 inch kudu from Matetsi in 2006. My PH said he was pretty old. I was extremely happy with this guy although he ain't the biggest by any means.

PSmith,

Your kudu and mine have very similar horns, but yours looks bigger in my opinion because of the wider flair. I think kudu have to be one of the toughest animals to judge. I am thrilled with mine too whatever his age.

Don

DC, I love that type of kudu you took with the more parallel horns.

I never saw the horns on the bull I shot, his head was either in a bush or behind it. My PH told me he saw the horns and he was not a kudu to pass on, so I shot him. I could see his shoulder clearly and took him from 75 yards.

He was the result of three days of hunting for a good kudu and I was (and am) very pleased with him. If I get back to Africa I may try for another one but if not I'm very happy I have a decent kudu on the wall.

quote:

These "prime breeding age bulls" of 6 to 8 years will simply overpower the much older ones at the rut. IMHO it is only these few, 5% or so of the total population of kudu, that can be equated to "fully hard-bossed buffalo bulls"

Andrew,

Now we get to the heart of the issue.........and interesting points regarding the younger breeding bulls overpowering the old bulls.

quote:

Originally posted by infinito:

quote:

Originally posted by David Hulme:
Charl,

What say you regarding this bull which you posted on this thread?

http://forums.accuratereloadin...=907101209#907101209

Is this an immature bull in your opinion? Given a second chance, would you have passed it up?

Dave

David,

With all respect, if you take the time to sift through my posts on this in the beginning you will see what I said about traumatic events that happen in the life of the animal that can affect horn growth, in our experience......BUT we do not have scientific proof of it. We just get some bulls that have these strange horns and they all look to be the same age group.....

The one you are refering to was about 8 years old (you would have seen it if you read further down), and simply put a FREAK of a specimen.

Please note that the left horn of the bull is pointing up.....You and me know that we do not have to look twice at a grey old bull before we decide to shoot him. If his left horn looked like the right one I would have passed up on him.

So in conclussion, do I regret shooting one of the top Kudu bulls out of Southern Africa this year. No. KarlS who started this thread do not like this bull, but not because of it's age, because of the shape of the horns. I on the other hand love it because it looks so odd, and I like the odd ones.

It looks as if will get another one in 2009, who knows....I'll just count his teeth before we shoot him....

I wish you guys a good 2009 season!

Cheers

Same to you mate

quote:

So, if most kudu bulls die by 8 years, surely the cut-off point to call them "old" must be something like 7 years?

So these fully mature bulls are close to their expiration date either by bullet or old age

These old bulls is a taxidermist and a ph dream they dont have to worry about hair slip because there is no hair to slip

well said guys....in '66 they got a bit confused with middle aged and old.....do not know how they got those two words in the same sentence. My dad's 60 and he wants to beat me up for mentioning old, he is "fully matured"....

Do you still breed at 60 or 66

Rudi,

Let me assure you that at 60 one knows how to prevent certain most pleasant actions to have consequenses that are considered desireable at 30, but will mostly be most embarassing at 60! But it is said that: "'n Man se byl word nooit stomp nie!"

Andrew McLaren

quote:

Originally posted by Andrew McLaren:
Rudi,

Let me assure you that at 60 one knows how to prevent certain most pleasant actions to have consequenses that are considered desireable at 30, but will mostly be most embarassing at 60! But it is said that: "'n Man se byl word nooit stomp nie!"

Andrew McLaren

Fuckin' right!

So you are mature and still breeding but can we hunt you is the question

Is the horn pointing to the front or to the back

I've gotta warn you I'm not much of a trophy!

.......... at least, that's what my Mrs tells me.

Its not always about inches but the experience

Reminds me of the poem 'Eskimo Nell' that begins:-

When a man grows old and his balls turn cold and the end of his knob turns blue,

When it's bent in the middle, like a one stringed fiddle, he can tell you a tale or two.

So stand me a drink and find me a seat, and a yarn to you I'll tell.

Of dead eyed Dick and Mexico Pete and a whore named Eskimo Nell. etc!

Sometimes, the old 'uns are the good 'uns!

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:
I've gotta warn you I'm not much of a trophy!

.......... at least, that's what my Mrs tells me.

They all say that Steve


How's the cricket going Rudi?

I think your team has OUTWARD turning tips......and your team is fully mature, because you look like you are going to expire.

quote:

Originally posted by Blair338/378:

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:
I've gotta warn you I'm not much of a trophy!

.......... at least, that's what my Mrs tells me.

They all say that Steve


How's the cricket going Rudi?

I think your team has OUTWARD turning tips......and your team is fully mature, because you look like you are going to expire.

at this stage watching cricket is like going to kruger park you can sit with a beer and watch how animals shit on the grass.

I must say we had you worried for a while there but it was great bowling you dont see that every day wel done

Immature is immature. I'm glad someone had the balls to say it. There's been no informative series like BOB/BOB2 for the masses so when we go over to Africa we are totally at the mercy of the PH. I've got a shot horned kudu on the wall because of pressure to take the shot. He's mine and I love him, but if I take another kudu I'll be sure to not sacrifice or shoot too quickly.

As an aside, I find kudu with big, sloppy curls (which score really well) to be less pleasing to my eye than a tighter, but shorter, set of horns. But as Karl has said, we should be endeavoring to shoot only fully mature blls, inches be damned!

quote:

Originally posted by 375 fanatic:

quote:

Originally posted by Blair338/378:

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:
I've gotta warn you I'm not much of a trophy!

.......... at least, that's what my Mrs tells me.

They all say that Steve


How's the cricket going Rudi?

I think your team has OUTWARD turning tips......and your team is fully mature, because you look like you are going to expire.

at this stage watching cricket is like going to kruger park you can sit with a beer and watch how animals shit on the grass.

I must say we had you worried for a while there but it was great bowling you dont see that every day wel done

quote:

Originally posted by Blair338/378:




How's the cricket going Rudi?

I think your team has OUTWARD turning tips......and your team is fully mature, because you look like you are going to expire.

famous last words mate what can i say AB AB , Smity and JP

I completely agree with both Mr. Fulton and Mr. Culpepper. I think, as long as an animal is mature (not necessarily old), then it is worthy of shooting, so long as the hunter is happy with the way he looks. Personally, I absolutely HATE straight upward tips on Kudu. I would much rather have one with either inward or outward pointing tips.

And on another note.....I HATE outward pointing tips on Impala. I like them to have slightly inward pointing tips. That is just my preference and my opinion. I would rather have a 22" ram with inward pointing tips than a 25" ram with outward pointing tips.

quote:

Originally posted by 375 fanatic:

quote:

Originally posted by Blair338/378:




How's the cricket going Rudi?

I think your team has OUTWARD turning tips......and your team is fully mature, because you look like you are going to expire.

famous last words mate what can i say AB AB , Smity and JP

You beat us fair and square. Bloody well done

Here's a good case study for you Karl & others, one is straight up and almost in and one out. He went 58 3/4/58 1/2. jorge

Off to RSA in May of 09 with Kudu as my primary target. I appreciate any education you folks can provide.

But is it the inches or the enjoyment of the hunt that's the most important?

quote:

Originally posted by jorge:
Here's a good case study for you Karl & others, one is straight up and almost in and one out. He went 58 3/4/58 1/2. jorge

That is a good one jorge

Karl, Charl, Andrew, Rudi..........what do you think??

quote:

Originally posted by Blair338/378:

quote:

Originally posted by jorge:
Here's a good case study for you Karl & others, one is straight up and almost in and one out. He went 58 3/4/58 1/2. jorge

That is a good one jorge

Karl, Charl, Andrew, Rudi..........what do you think??

Maybe its right side is fully mature!


I'm afraid that I don't really go with the 'tips must be outward turning for it to be mature' theory. Of course, it stands true in many instances, but not all. There are too many exceptions to the 'rule'. Just my three cents.....

David

Great cricket match by the way - congratulations SA!