... are currently coming out of the Kafue in Zambia. One picture I am just awaiting permission to post and the other will be posted shortly.

These Lion will be a great advertisement for free range hunting in Africa and proves that we are doing something right in this part of the continent.

Botswana and Tanzania watch out.

My lion came from Zambia's Mumbwa, which adjoins Kafue National Park, so I must agree.

Bill Quimby

Guess I will find out in a couple of weeks...

Let us see the pics....... and not the "dressed up for the photo" version

FG- We all know the best are coming out of RSA.

Bwanamich - See my post on the Kafue lions, and its not "dressed up", either.

Aaron's right, its definitely not dressed up !!!! In fact it looks like its having a "bad hair day"

Aaron,
pulling you leg a little.... Zambia has a history of producing some of the very best maned lions the industry has ever seen. About 15 years or so ago, pictures of males from a particular area (slips my mind at the moment)had black mane hairs soo long that the mane parted in the middle and when the wind blew form behind them the mane "flopped" over their eyes.

I hear PJ also has a few outstanding males on his concession that he has been keeping track off.

But Botswana lions are/were no slouch in this department either. And arguably the best mane genetics are found in Northern Tanzania and Southern Kenya!

None though, can compete with the genetics of the Barbary lion

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:
Bwanamich - See my post on the Kafue lions, and its not "dressed up", either.

One of three males (a coalition of two and an old deposed male) photographed by a a ph on a 10 day hunt 3 days ago.... Notice how relaxed he is at 30 yards of the car in the middle of the day in a hunting concession?

The other male in the coalition...(the one in the foreground is the same as the one in my previous post above)

quote:

Originally posted by Bwanamich:
The other male in the coalition...(the one in the foreground is the same as the one in my previous post above)

Bwana - Beautiful Lions!! Are these 2 boys off limits to hunters this year??? Are they still holding the pride, etc??

Both are males that have not been identified as ones known to exist in the concession and were not seen with females the day the photos were taken. There won't be a hunter there for another week or so so who knows if they will be seen again.

These 2 males were heard fighting with another older single male who is also "unknown". I don't have a good picture of the "older" male other than these ones...

omg

Good lord! I got video of two males in Botswana that looked about like those lions, but it was at night and you can really only see ones mane, the other is just eyes crouched in the grass. Great pics man!

ABSOLUTELY STUNNING!
If these boys are legal, some lucky hunter will be blessed. WOW, WOW, WOW !!!!!

quote:

Originally posted by Bwanamich:
Both are males that have not been identified as ones known to exist in the concession and were not seen with females the day the photos were taken. There won't be a hunter there for another week or so so who knows if they will be seen again.

These 2 males were heard fighting with another older single male who is also "unknown". I don't have a good picture of the "older" male other than these ones...

"Ones not known to exist in the concession" - ok, but how can that be??

"Not seen with any females" - Ok, but that wasn't the question I asked. Do they have a dependent pride???

"not known to exist in the area, but who knows if they will be seen again" - How can that be?? How would you be able to keep track of them, know their ages, and if you can shoot them, if they can possibly never be seen again???

"an older single male who is ALSO unknown" - That would mean that several of these lions are unknown??? Meaning for sure their ages are unknown?? And its unknown if they have a dependent pride?? HOW CAN ALL OF THAT BE POSSIBLE??? I thought you knew ALL of the lions in your areas, knew their ages, the pride dynamics, etc. If a lion's age is UNKNOWN, what do you do then?? Can he be shot??

Man, all of this sounds like a dilemma for sure. One that plays out throughout the wilds of Africa, in every hunting concession around.

It is indeed a dilemma and a very difficult one at that.

I for one don't pretend to know all the answers..... many of the problems perhaps but not all of the answers. That said, I'd rather too few lions were shot than too many or the wrong ones.

I'm getting towards the end of my hunting career but even so, I'd hate to think of an Africa, esp a wild Africa without lions for future generations to hunt and enjoy.

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:
...I thought you knew ALL of the lions in your areas, knew their ages, the pride dynamics, etc. If a lion's age is UNKNOWN, what do you do then?? Can he be shot??

NEVER said this. If you are going to quote me, do get it right. To answer your last question, the decision is with the PH that is at the scene

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:
It is indeed a dilemma and a very difficult one at that.

I for one don't pretend to know all the answers..... many of the problems perhaps but not all of the answers. That said, I'd rather too few lions were shot than too many or the wrong ones.

I don't have all the answers either, but you are kind of changing your tune here STEVE. If you don't have ALL the answers, then how do you know which ones are the WRONG ones??? You don't! You've told me in previous posts that KNOWING all about the lions in each area, pride dynamics, etc, etc, is being done by TGT. Well, seems these boys slipped through for the past 5-8 yrs?

"Shoot too few, rather than too many". We agree on that. But isn't the answer really just to control quotas, keep them low, and operators insist that ONLY mature lions like the ones shown in Bwanamich's pictures, be shot! Rather than all of this silly notions that we CAN AGE LIONS in the wild, on the paw, (since they all look just alike) and we know ALL of the lions in our areas, including nomads, whether they have prides, dependents, we can follow them from birth to maturity and beyond, etc, etc, etc.

These lions are not KNOWN in the area, and weren't seen with a pride, and MAY NOT BE SEEN AGAIN. Then can you tell me if they are all 6 yrs old or older, and are they males that are part of a dependent pride, but just happen to be on walk about???? Nope!!!

But I can guarantee you, I would shoot anyone of them, and be darn proud of it too!

Those lions are definitely the stuff dreams are made of. Awesome

Bake

Actually mate, I think you'll find that what I've said is that they will usually know all ofthe major players in their areas and that one of the major problems is the difficulty of keeping track of the wandering nomads that come in and out of the area......

I've also said that another of the major problems is that a lot of the lesser companies won't have the money or interest to maintain similar programmes.

Anyway, we've been through all this before and I don't really want to hijack Andrew's thread rehashing old debates.

One thing I will say is that this thread has demonstrated that wild Africa has still has some stunning lions and with a bit of luck and a lot of care, I see no reason why lions and lion hunting couldn't continue for some considerable time...... the key will be the luck and care.

There's some fabulous lions here!

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:
Actually mate, I think you'll find that what I've said is that they will usually know all of the major players in their areas and that one of the major problems is the difficulty of keeping track of the wandering nomads that come in and out of the area......

Man, I wish I could change my words every time it fit best for the situation at hand!! Pretty sure I was preaching to you about nomads, along with a dozen other factors as to why aging wild, live, lions will never be accurate in hunting areas. Besides, wouldn't these lions be considered major players??

Come on, just admit it! Lesser companies can't or won't afford it, because it simply won't work in the end anyway. Useful for sure, defining info, surely not!

Lane has a much better idea in my opinion, and hopefully next year we get to see it start to work?

Yes, they are fabulous lions and Bwanamich should be proud to say they are his!

They'd only be considered major players IN THE AREA if they regularly spent time IN THE AREA.

If for example, they'd been holding a pride in ANOTHER area and then been kicked out to become nomadic and then wandered into the study area, then they'd obviously be strangers to the study team.

If they stayed IN THE AREA then the study team would have to establish if they were appropriate to take or not..... sure, trophy wise they're fantastic but as you know, there's more to it than that..... Although I've gotta say, they are helluva tempting!

You might like to review my previous posts buddy. I've often said that (IMO) whilst a study programme would work if if were wide ranging enough, I have my doubts (to say the least) that there's enough money, will and most importantly, qualified people to conduct such an expensive and time consuming project.

And y'know, it is possible to study an area to the extent that you can get to a stage where you can age all the major players..... it's been done in several places. Not least amongst 'em the areas they've been filming the lion watch (if that's what they're called?) programmes in the Mara for umpteen years.

Sorry mate.... I've just been told it's called Big Cat Diary. http://www.bbc.co.uk/bigcat/

Can it be done?

Sure it can. After all we can put a man on the moon and we can land things on Mars so studying lions sure as hell ain't impossible but nor is it cheap or quick.

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:
They'd only be considered major players IN THE AREA if they regularly spent time IN THE AREA.

If for example, they'd been holding a pride in ANOTHER area and then been kicked out to become nomadic and then wandered into the study area, then they'd obviously be strangers to the study team.

If they stayed IN THE AREA then the study team would have to establish if they were appropriate to take or not.....

If, If, If!!!! Lotta if's?? Steve, your just making my point for me. Is it POSSIBLE, hypothetically yes. Is it REALLY gonna happen, NO!!! To expensive, too time consuming, etc, etc, etc. Whatever the reason, it just ain't possible in real hunting Africa. Stop with the "we can put a man on the moon" stuff, and lets deal with what REALLY is likely and able to happen! Steve, reality buddy!! Time to deal with reality!! Millions of things are possible, its possible I might win the lottery too, but I don't sit around waiting for it. So lets STOP with the possibilities, and DEAL WITH REALITY. It ain't gonna happen!!!

Nomads, yes they certainly could be, ALL of them in fact! But, since they could be, then that means they are OFF limits forever, right??? As you will only shoot lions of 6 yrs of age or older, and NO WAY to know exactly how old they are if they are nomadic and never seen before, so as you mention, we can't take the chance. That will certainly make the clients happy!

Regardless of ALL the excuses you make for the lack of knowledge about these particular lions in the pics, the problem is still the same! 3-4 big male lions that NO ONE knows anything about, in a hunting area, with potential lion hunters, and trophies WELL worth taking. So who decides, how do they decide, when do they decide?? Now we watch them for weeks to see if you CAN TAKE ONE, as you suggest (THE TEAM)? Well, Bwana just said that they may never be seen again??? What then?? What if you have a LION hunter in the truck seat next to you, you see these big lions, you don't seem to know anything about them, except we can ALL see they are big, mature cats, with NO females present, and you may possibly never see them again. (BEST TIME TO KILL A BIG ANIMAL IS WHEN YOU SEE EM) The client is freaking out cause he's got lion on quota, is paying over $100,000.00 to be there hunting lion, your suppose to do your best to get him a lion, and your answer is gonna be what???? What a second, OUR TEAM needs to evaluate them for a few weeks to determine who they are, where they're from, etc??? Let me know how that works out for ya????? I'll be interested to read the tale in the HUNTING REPORT!!

And now you want me to believe the liberal/anti hunting BBC & Big Cat Diaries, are you kidding me???? Seen it many times. Ya, I believe everything I read in the paper too!!! Funny, watch these shows long enough, and you'll see them calling a particular lion, the very same lion, when clearly anyone who has a clue, can see he's NOT the same one!!! But they know most people don't have a clue, to them, one lion looks like the next.

Mate, Do me a favour.....go and pour yourself a large glass of relaxative and then come back and re-read my posts on this and other related threads...... We pretty much agree on this and always have.

I've repeatedly said that whilst it can be done it ain't easy and I doubt it'll ever happen.

I've repeatedly said that age is a factor but not the only one.

I've repeatedly said it's not as easy to age them when you're hunting them. Esp when looking at them through binos in shit light when they're covered in mud, blood and gore and all scratched up.

I've repeatedly said that one of the big problems are the nomads coming and going.

And incidentally, I've also repeatedly said I've had times when I know I've shot inappropriate lions and I'm not ashamed of it at all.

I don't like or watch BCD which is why I didn't know the name of the programme and I can't stand the idiots that present it..... but from what I have seen, there's no doubt they do study their lions and do know their major players.

Now, doesn't that relaxative taste good?

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:
If for example, they'd been holding a pride in ANOTHER area and then been kicked out to become nomadic and then wandered into the study area, then they'd obviously be strangers to the study team.

The problem is that males who do infact hold prides will occasionally go on a "walk about". How the hell could you ever know that they had a pride? More and more I'm seeing it Aaron's way. Keep quotas moderate. Only shoot mature lions. Don't shoot any lion if it's with a pride holding dependant cubs. I think TGTs records and research are a very good thing. It helps your recongnize resident lions as pride holders when you see them. Obviously though it doesn't cover all the bases.

Brett

That's EXACTLY what I've been saying for years...... but I also add it's not JUST how many you shoot but also which ones you shoot.

By shooting one prideholding male you can and almost certainly will effectively do more damage to the overall population than by shooting a dozen non prideholders..... and that isn't a criticism of anyone. It's a fact and nothing more.

quote:

And now you want me to believe the liberal/anti hunting BBC & Big Cat Diaries, are you kidding me???? Seen it many times. Ya, I believe everything I read in the paper too!!! Funny, watch these shows long enough, and you'll see them calling a particular lion, the very same lion, when clearly anyone who has a clue, can see he's NOT the same one!!! But they know most people don't have a clue, to them, one lion looks like the next.

Kind of like that show where they are darting and translocating ele from Kruger to that mid-country Mosambique park. They showed 3 different ele and him the same one all through the show.

quote:

By shooting one prideholding male you can and almost certainly will effectively do more damage to the overall population than by shooting a dozen non prideholders..... and that isn't a criticism of anyone. It's a fact and nothing more.

Very true as well.

I know.... lets just set the clock back one or two hundred years and then the continent will be full of 'em and we won't have to worry about it..

quote:

What then?? What if you have a LION hunter in the truck seat next to you, you see these big lions, you don't seem to know anything about them, except we can ALL see they are big, mature cats, with NO females present, and you may possibly never see them again. (BEST TIME TO KILL A BIG ANIMAL IS WHEN YOU SEE EM) The client is freaking out cause he's got lion on quota, is paying over $100,000.00 to be there hunting lion, your suppose to do your best to get him a lion, and your answer is gonna be what???? What a second, OUR TEAM needs to evaluate them for a few weeks to determine who they are, where they're from, etc??? Let me know how that works out for ya????? I'll be interested to read the tale in the HUNTING REPORT!!

OK Aaron...don't get pissed at me. Just gonna make point.

TGT tells people up front how it going to be before they buy a "chance" at a lion. Companies must sell the hunt and NOT the lion.

Lion hunting is going to have to be that way in my opinion. No longer is the client to expect a lion. They are going to have to buy a chance. And...the company is going to have to be the advocate for the lions in his block first and see to his clients wants second.

I think when a chance at a lion is sold anymore the company needs to have this talk up front with folks and let them know that they may go home empty-handed. I you consistently produce great lions...there will always be clients.

The trick is going to be to always have lion to hunt.

If one does know his lion well in his area...and nomadic coalition comes in...it might be best to shoot one of them early one if he is mature. These coalitions can be damaging to prides as well sometimes. By breaking up the coalition...It may save some cubs.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
If one does know his lion well in his area...and nomadic coalition comes in...it might be best to shoot one of them early one if he is mature. These coalitions can be damaging to prides as well sometimes. By breaking up the coalition...It may save some cubs.

Bwanamich,
Give me you opinion on this statement.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

What then?? What if you have a LION hunter in the truck seat next to you, you see these big lions, you don't seem to know anything about them, except we can ALL see they are big, mature cats, with NO females present, and you may possibly never see them again. (BEST TIME TO KILL A BIG ANIMAL IS WHEN YOU SEE EM) The client is freaking out cause he's got lion on quota, is paying over $100,000.00 to be there hunting lion, your suppose to do your best to get him a lion, and your answer is gonna be what???? What a second, OUR TEAM needs to evaluate them for a few weeks to determine who they are, where they're from, etc??? Let me know how that works out for ya????? I'll be interested to read the tale in the HUNTING REPORT!!

OK Aaron...don't get pissed at me. Just gonna make point.

TGT tells people up front how it going to be before they buy a "chance" at a lion. Companies must sell the hunt and NOT the lion.

TOTALLY AGREE! Anyone who buys a lion hunt anywhere, and thinks they are buying a lion, needs to come out of the clouds. (SA does not count) But now the "chance" is standing right in front of you. Its no longer a chance, its reality! I've paid $100,000.00 plus, for this chance. There he is, no females and cubs, I've got a lion license in my pocket, you're my PH, and he's a freakin monster, an nobody knows shit about him! Who am I shooting, him or you?????

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:
I know.... lets just set the clock back one or two hundred years and then the continent will be full of 'em and we won't have to worry about it..

Good point, would love to do that. Unfortunately its about as far from REALITY, as the rest of your suggestions and constantly changing words!!

Damn nice lions. No doubt. In my last 63 days in TZ and a small mountain of money later, I haven't seen anything remotely close to those lions. In fact on one of those trips I did not see a lion at all. It always amazes me how these lions are photographed and I don't see anything worth lifting the binos to have a look.

quote:

But now the "chance" is standing right in front of you. Its no longer a chance, its reality! I've paid $100,000.00 plus, for this chance. There he is, no females and cubs, I've got a lion license in my pocket, you're my PH, and he's a freakin monster, an nobody knows shit about him! Who am I shooting, him or you?????

Well Aaron here is my answer. If you have done a good job of "knowing" your concession and you have a handle on your pride males...If a mature outside male comes through...he is fair game.

If it is an outside coalition...and you have a pride holding male in your concession...might be a GOOD idea to take one and bust the coalition.

An exception might be the scenario where you have a 7-8 yo holding a pride then it might be a good idea to let the strong coalition remove him and then take him. Then leave the strong youg coalition to hold the pride and keep it strong.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

But now the "chance" is standing right in front of you. Its no longer a chance, its reality! I've paid $100,000.00 plus, for this chance. There he is, no females and cubs, I've got a lion license in my pocket, you're my PH, and he's a freakin monster, an nobody knows shit about him! Who am I shooting, him or you?????

Well Aaron here is my answer. If you have done a good job of "knowing" your concession and you have a handle on your pride males...If a mature outside male comes through...he is fair game.

If it is an outside coalition...and you have a pride holding male in your concession...might be a GOOD idea to take one and bust the coalition.

An exception might be the scenario where you have a 7-8 yo holding a pride then it might be a good idea to let the strong coalition remove him and then take him. Then leave the strong youg coalition to hold the pride and keep it strong.

I actually agree with all that! Good luck figuring it out though.

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:
Damn nice lions. No doubt. In my last 63 days in TZ and a small mountain of money later, I haven't seen anything remotely close to those lions. In fact on one of those trips I did not see a lion at all. It always amazes me how these lions are photographed and I don't see anything worth lifting the binos to have a look.

Location, location, location! Luck, luck, luck!